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Stop the Insanity!
I hope this gets everyone's attention, and I don't give a rip if anyone replies or not. I am posting this separately from the previous discussions on here that have deteriorated into the most vile insulting and mudslinging bunch of crap I have ever seen in my life.
It is distressing to me that massage therapists, researchers in the field, and anyone else associated with our profession in any way stoop to this kind of behavior. Not only is it not a productive discussion, it is starting to sound like a bunch of politicians on tv with their insulting of each other's credentials, standards, and abilities.
I am not interested in shame and blame, so who started it and who said what is irrelevant. I urge you all to remember that we are ALL in this profession because we have a desire to help people through the awesome power of touch, and that is what it is about.
We don't have to agree. We can all agree to disagree. The personal attacks, the character attacks, the arguing over which country does it better, is ridiculous, petty, and childish. This is not the first time this has happened. It is the main reason I avoid this site most of the time.
I am no better, or no worse than anyone else, and everybody is entitled to an opinion. That's what forums are meant for, so that people with differing opinions have a place to discuss those, but so much of what has gone on here is not a civil discussion. When I see people that I know to be hard-working, caring people, and people that I know to be brilliant minds and hard-working as well get into these mudslinging insulting arguments on here, I personally find that to be a bad reflection of what we are supposed to be about.
I don't have to be bad in order for you to be good. You don't have to be a failure just so someone else can be a success. One country who does things differently is not better or worse, they are just different. People get caught up in national pride, and that's okay, but it does not have to deteriorate into what some of these discussions have deteriorated into. Someone makes a comment, someone takes it the wrong way, or out of context, and it just goes downhill from there.
When you're writing like this, you can't hear people's tone of voice, you can't see their body language, and what might be civil if we were all in a room together comes off as a bunch of superior b*******, and one's just as guilty as the other. When anyone has anything intelligent to say, someone else seizes upon that and uses it as an excuse for the next round of arguing.
I wish everyone of you peace and prosperity, regardless of where you are from, what you do, or how you do it. We are all equal by virtue of the fact that we are all human and it's too bad that people are fighting like a pack of junkyard dogs instead of having a civil disagreement. I can't participate in it and I won't.
Views: 1063
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Lee Edelberg on
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Many phenomenon don't appear to make sense. Does quantum mechanics make sense to you? String theory? the wave-like behavior of subatomic particles? gravity? Stephen Hawking was criticized when he first postulated, mathematically, that energy was escaping from black holes, but later was vindicated.
If making sense was the primary criterion for judging the viability of a certain view or mechanism, we'd probably still believe that a heavy object falls faster than a small one, and that the sun revolves around the earth.
Christopher A. Moyer said:From several posts back:
To put it another way, training in anatomy, physiology, biology, and chemistry, if it's good training, should help one to see that reiki is nonsensical.
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Permalink Reply by Alexei Levine on
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Very good point Lee! Phenomenon like quantum entanglement are verifiably real, yet so counter intuitive to those of us mired in a "mechanical" mindset which we think of as "rational". Sorry about all the quatation marks :) And the smiley.
Lee Edelberg said:
Many phenomenon don't appear to make sense. Does quantum mechanics make sense to you? String theory? the wave-like behavior of subatomic particles? gravity? Stephen Hawking was criticized when he first postulated, mathematically, that energy was escaping from black holes, but later was vindicated.
If making sense was the primary criterion for judging the viability of a certain view or mechanism, we'd probably still believe that a heavy object falls faster than a small one, and that the sun revolves around the earth.
Christopher A. Moyer said:From several posts back:
To put it another way, training in anatomy, physiology, biology, and chemistry, if it's good training, should help one to see that reiki is nonsensical.
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Permalink Reply by Ravensara Travillian on
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But there is a difference between something being 1) possible, although counterintuitive, and 2) impossible under any circumstances. Working around 1) can lead to amazing discoveries; working around 2) leads to blind alleys.
Knowing enough basics about the natural world operates to tell the difference between 1) and 2) is a very important skill. Otherwise, it's impossible to distinguish among 1) true positives, 2) false positives, 3) true negatives, and 4) false negatives.
If *everything* is uncritically accepted as true, then the assertion that "massage won't help you*" also has to be true. Clearly, it's not, so there then has to be some way of distinguishing what is true from what is false. It's a complicated task to sort the true positives and true negatives from the false positives and false negatives, which is where your examples and the examples cited earlier in this thread (Ptolemy's earth-centric universe, or leeches as a cure-all) come from. Eventually, though, we do get better at figuring things out, and we get closer to where the truth lies.
* actual quote from the orthopedist of one of my patients. Obviously, it's crap.
That *some* things thought to be false later turn out to be true does not mean that *all* things thought to be false turn out to be true. Some things are clearly impossible.
If the claims of energy healers do indeed, as they say, transcend the laws of physics, including the inverse-square law, and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, then they could accomplish two things:
1) prove the physicists wrong about what is impossible in this universe, by
2) solving our dependence on non-renewable energy sources, which is approaching a crisis.
If they can do this, then why don't they? We desperately need it, if they can truly do what they claim to.
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Even Albert Einstein famously said "god does not play dice with the universe", but later physicists discovered that electrons might be better termed "probability waves", as in their position could only be partially determined. Just because we are stuck in our current paradigm of understanding, doesn't mean that one day in the future we won't move on to a more accurate way of viewing nature. Medieval thinking about nature was transcended by Newtonian physics; one day newtonian physics may be transcended. Perhaps by AI post-singularity. I'm not saying that I agree with the claims of distance healers, but just because some post-mechanical, post rational thinker hasn't solved our energy crisis yet doesn't mean it won't happen someday in the future.
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If the things you say may or might happen ever do come to pass, Alexei, I will certainly adjust my thinking when that does occur.
If someday some energy healer does solve the energy crisis, I will be the first to say I was mistaken. But it has to actually happen, not just be a possibility that can be imagined and speculated about.
For now, I can only work with what we currently, actually, have in the natural world. Because when it comes to making promises to clients, it's about what I can really deliver, not what I imagine might happen someday.
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I completely agree with you Ravensara, but I don't think we should close our minds to larger possibilities by saying energy healing is does not exist because energy healers are unable to solve the energy crisis.
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The way I see it, western science doesn't have the equipment or understanding to test for the subtle effects of touch on the human body, just as a few hundred years ago nobody could send up a satellite to take a look at our solar system and our round earth. Give it a few more generations.
But in the meantime, there is a lot of clinical/field evidence that there is more going on than can be explained by your world view, so what are the rest of us to do? Keep doing what we're doing, and let others do as they wish.
As for the energy crisis, I'm sure you remember than N. Tesla had a system that he claimed would derive electricity on the spot from the earth's magnetic field (at least I think that was the gist of it). Given his almost unbelievable genius, and given that pretty much everything else he claimed about electricity and magnetism has been demonstrated to be true, I would think that scientists would be trying hard to duplicate his research.
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I'm not closing my mind to it, Alexei; as I said, if they do it, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.
However, they are claiming that they are not subject to the physical laws of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, the inverse-square law, or e=mc^2, for that matter.
If their claims are true, then they are not subject to the problems our dependence on fossil-fuel energy has brought us to. We are destroying the earth with our addiction to fossil fuels. They are claiming they have gotten out of this disastrous cycle.
I am saying that if their claims are actually true, then why aren't they helping the rest of us by generating infinite amounts of energy at no cost to the environment?
Either their claims are true, and they're selfishly withholding this power, or else the claims are not true, and they've no more transcended the laws of physics than any of the rest of us sentient beings have.
The latter possibility is actually better if you think about it; if they really *were* withholding their ability to generate infinite amounts of no-cost energy, then they'd just be cruel.
And, as I said, the minute an energy healer proves me wrong by solving this problem, I will be the first to admit that I was mistaken. Until then, I have to operate with clients and with my fellow beings in the natural world as I know it; if you call that being closed-minded, that'll just be my cross to bear, I guess.
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BTW I agree with you on most of this (first part). Critical thinking is a good skill, though we might apply it differently.
When I hear a claim made, I try to judge it based on my sense of what is possible, along with any actual verification, and , as important, I try to evaluate the credibility of the person making the claim. If the person making the claim is someone I judge to be very likely credible, then I am more open to listening favorably and suspending some of my reaction about whether the claim is possible or likely.
Ravensara Travillian said:But there is a difference between something being 1) possible, although counterintuitive, and 2) impossible under any circumstances. Working around 1) can lead to amazing discoveries; working around 2) leads to blind alleys.
Knowing enough basics about the natural world operates to tell the difference between 1) and 2) is a very important skill. Otherwise, it's impossible to distinguish among 1) true positives, 2) false positives, 3) true negatives, and 4) false negatives.
If *everything* is uncritically accepted as true, then the assertion that "massage won't help you*" also has to be true. Clearly, it's not, so there then has to be some way of distinguishing what is true from what is false. It's a complicated task to sort the true positives and true negatives from the false positives and false negatives, which is where your examples and the examples cited earlier in this thread (Ptolemy's earth-centric universe, or leeches as a cure-all) come from. Eventually, though, we do get better at figuring things out, and we get closer to where the truth lies.
* actual quote from the orthopedist of one of my patients. Obviously, it's crap.
That *some* things thought to be false later turn out to be true does not mean that *all* things thought to be false turn out to be true. Some things are clearly impossible.
If the claims of energy healers do indeed, as they say, transcend the laws of physics, including the inverse-square law, and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, then they could accomplish two things:
1) prove the physicists wrong about what is impossible in this universe, by
2) solving our dependence on non-renewable energy sources, which is approaching a crisis.
If they can do this, then why don't they? We desperately need it, if they can truly do what they claim to.
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The way I see it, western science doesn't have the equipment or understanding to test for the subtle effects of touch on the human body, just as a few hundred years ago nobody could send up a satellite to take a look at our solar system and our round earth. Give it a few more generations.
If you can't produce results reliably in a lab, how can you reliably promise results to your clients in the much more complex environment that is the human body?
And after we give it a few more generations, what happens if it's still not there? Just keep giving it "a few more generations" ad infinitum? How many "a few more generations" until we get a result that we can reliably promise to our clients?
If it's not in my lifetime, then it's not going to affect my practice.
But in the meantime, there is a lot of clinical/field evidence that there is more going on than can be explained by your world view, so what are the rest of us to do? Keep doing what we're doing, and let others do as they wish.
No, I think the natural material world + emergent effects + chaos theory is sufficient to explain the effects you're referring to. I think you think that scientists confuse human beings with vending machines, and I can assure you that's not the case.
But it's arrogant assumptions like you just made about what my "world view" is that convince me that the split is coming. If you can't question the received orthodoxy without being called "closed-minded" or reductionist, or logical positivists or "know-it-alls", then what's the motivation to stay under the same umbrella? I don't see it.
Endless squabbling over irresolvable issues hurts us, and hurts our clients. I think it's pointless to have the same debates that people have been having for centuries. Just as has happened so many times before in human history, I really think the coming split is not going to be along spa vs. medical lines, but along evidence-based and faith-based lines, and there are spa and medical practitioners in each camp.
"As for the energy crisis, I'm sure you remember than N. Tesla had a system that he claimed would derive electricity on the spot from the earth's magnetic field (at least I think that was the gist of it). Given his almost unbelievable genius, and given that pretty much everything else he claimed about electricity and magnetism has been demonstrated to be true, I would think that scientists would be trying hard to duplicate his research."
Don't you think they did try? Like many complex human beings, Tesla was a mixed bag. Some genius, plus some crazy ideas.
Did you see the movie "The Prestige"? Remember how Tesla was duplicating human beings with his device? Do you think that really happened, and science is covering it up?
And remember cold fusion? Are you still waiting for that to be redeemed, as well?
Not everything that can be imagined is possible. Recognizing the difference is a very useful skill in order not to waste your efforts in something that does not have a realistic chance of paying off within your lifetime.
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"world view"............my apologies, didn't mean to be offensive. A poor choice of words. My point about giving it a few more generations is, simply, that it is going to take more time for science to uncover the information. In the meantime, my sense is that people who promote an evidence-based practice think that if something hasn't been demonstrated in lab conditions, then it is likely invalid and shouldn't be done. THAT is the problem......sort of a simplistic, do-it-my-way attitude.
Re Tesla: , no I didn't see that movie and don't know anything else about it. I thought he was a highly respected scientist/researcher/inventor and that his work was mostly beyond reproach. Maybe I'm wrong. Didn't those cold fusion guys prove to have been frauds? Not what I'm talking about!!!
Ravensara Travillian said:The way I see it, western science doesn't have the equipment or understanding to test for the subtle effects of touch on the human body, just as a few hundred years ago nobody could send up a satellite to take a look at our solar system and our round earth. Give it a few more generations.
If you can't produce results reliably in a lab, how can you reliably promise results to your clients in the much more complex environment that is the human body?
And after we give it a few more generations, what happens if it's still not there? Just keep giving it "a few more generations" ad infinitum? How many "a few more generations" until we get a result that we can reliably promise to our clients?
If it's not in my lifetime, then it's not going to affect my practice.
But in the meantime, there is a lot of clinical/field evidence that there is more going on than can be explained by your world view, so what are the rest of us to do? Keep doing what we're doing, and let others do as they wish.
No, I think the natural material world + emergent effects + chaos theory is sufficient to explain.
But it's arrogant assumptions like you just made about what my "world view" is that convince me that the split is coming. If you can't question the received orthodoxy without being called "closed-minded" or reductionist, or logical positivists or "know-it-alls", then what's the motivation to stay under the same umbrella?
I really think the coming split is not going to be along spa vs. medical lines, but along evidence-based and faith-based lines, and there are spa and medical practitioners in each camp.
"As for the energy crisis, I'm sure you remember than N. Tesla had a system that he claimed would derive electricity on the spot from the earth's magnetic field (at least I think that was the gist of it). Given his almost unbelievable genius, and given that pretty much everything else he claimed about electricity and magnetism has been demonstrated to be true, I would think that scientists would be trying hard to duplicate his research."
Don't you think they did?
Did you see the movie "The Prestige"? Remember how Tesla was duplicating human beings with his device? Do you think that really happened, and science is covering it up?
And remember cold fusion? Are you still waiting for that to be redeemed, as well?
Not everything that can be imagined is possible. Recognizing the difference is a very useful skill in order not to waste your efforts in something that will never pay off.
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thanks for taking back the "world view" thing.
but I've got to be honest, here, your characterization of what people who promote evidence-based practice think isn't much better.
From the horse's mouth (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2349778/pdf/bmj00524-00...):
Evidence based medicine is the conscientious, explicit, and judicious use of current best evidence in making decisions about the care of individual patients. The practice of evidence based medicine means integrating individual clinical expertise with the best available external clinical evidence from systematic research. By individual clinical expertise we mean the proficiency and judgment that individual clinicians acquire through clinical experience and clinical practice. Increased expertise is reflected in many ways, but especially in more effective and efficient diagnosis and in the more thoughtful identification and compassionate use of individual patients' predicaments, rights, and preferences in making clinical decisions about their care. By best available external clinical evidence we mean clinically relevant research, often from the basic sciences of medicine, but especially from patient centred clinical research into the accuracy and precision of diagnostic tests (including the clinical examination), the power of prognostic markers, and the efficacy and safety of therapeutic, rehabilitative, and preventive regimens. External clinical evidence both invalidates previously accepted diagnostic tests and treatments and replaces them with new ones that are more powerful, more accurate, more efficacious, and safer.
Good doctors use both individual clinical expertise and the best available external evidence, and neither alone is enough. Without clinical expertise, practice risks becoming tyrannised by evidence, for even excellent external evidence may be inapplicable to or inappropriate for an individual patient. Without current best evidence, practice risks becoming rapidly out of date, to the detriment of patients.--David L. Sackett, Evidence based medicine: what it is and what it isn't--It's about integrating individual clinical expertise and the best external evidence. BMJ. 1996 January 13;312(7023):71-2.
I don't see anything simplistic or "do it my way" about that. If you want to complain about how an individual person fails to meet this target, that's one thing, but if you're going to say that most people who promote evidence based practice do this, then as a "people" who promotes evidence based practice, I say you're wrong on your description of us.
Tesla was brilliant, complex, and a very mixed bag. He invented lots of things that worked, he claimed to have worked out a complete theory of gravity that he would give to the world (but never did), he disagreed with Einstein over relativity, he claimed space-time cannot be curved, he had OCD and was obsessive about germs, and lots of other things. A messy, wonderful human being, in other words. Just because he's right about some things doesn't make him right about all his fanciful claims later in life.
I don't know whether the cold fusion guys were actually conscious frauds, or whether they were just too in love with their hypothesis, and published it far too recklessly soon. Either way, it doesn't matter for the end users; they're not getting those results, whether it was fraud or error.
My point is that you have to have some way of evaluating whether a claim is likely to be true or not. And Newtonian physics is certainly not the whole story by any means, and I never claimed it was. Yet it is reliable enough to keep planes in the sky, and patients defibrillated, so as imperfect and incomplete as it is, we can get a lot of mileage out of it.
When someone is claiming to have already transcended those laws (which we are using a a guideline to distinguish what is likely to be possible from what is likely to be impossible), why should we wait a "few more generations" for them to prove their claim? Either they are doing what they say they are now, or they are not.
Lee Edelberg said:"world view"............my apologies, didn't mean to be offensive. A poor choice of words. My point about giving it a few more generations is, simply, that it is going to take more time for science to uncover the information. In the meantime, my sense is that people who promote an evidence-based practice think that if something hasn't been demonstrated in lab conditions, then it is likely invalid and shouldn't be done. THAT is the problem......sort of a simplistic, do-it-my-way attitude.
Re Tesla: , no I didn't see that movie and don't know anything else about it. I thought he was a highly respected scientist/researcher/inventor and that his work was mostly beyond reproach. Maybe I'm wrong. Didn't those cold fusion guys prove to have been frauds? Not what I'm talking about!!!
Ravensara Travillian said:The way I see it, western science doesn't have the equipment or understanding to test for the subtle effects of touch on the human body, just as a few hundred years ago nobody could send up a satellite to take a look at our solar system and our round earth. Give it a few more generations.
If you can't produce results reliably in a lab, how can you reliably promise results to your clients in the much more complex environment that is the human body?
And after we give it a few more generations, what happens if it's still not there? Just keep giving it "a few more generations" ad infinitum? How many "a few more generations" until we get a result that we can reliably promise to our clients?
If it's not in my lifetime, then it's not going to affect my practice.
But in the meantime, there is a lot of clinical/field evidence that there is more going on than can be explained by your world view, so what are the rest of us to do? Keep doing what we're doing, and let others do as they wish.
No, I think the natural material world + emergent effects + chaos theory is sufficient to explain.
But it's arrogant assumptions like you just made about what my "world view" is that convince me that the split is coming. If you can't question the received orthodoxy without being called "closed-minded" or reductionist, or logical positivists or "know-it-alls", then what's the motivation to stay under the same umbrella?
I really think the coming split is not going to be along spa vs. medical lines, but along evidence-based and faith-based lines, and there are spa and medical practitioners in each camp.
"As for the energy crisis, I'm sure you remember than N. Tesla had a system that he claimed would derive electricity on the spot from the earth's magnetic field (at least I think that was the gist of it). Given his almost unbelievable genius, and given that pretty much everything else he claimed about electricity and magnetism has been demonstrated to be true, I would think that scientists would be trying hard to duplicate his research."
Don't you think they did?
Did you see the movie "The Prestige"? Remember how Tesla was duplicating human beings with his device? Do you think that really happened, and science is covering it up?
And remember cold fusion? Are you still waiting for that to be redeemed, as well?
Not everything that can be imagined is possible. Recognizing the difference is a very useful skill in order not to waste your efforts in something that will never pay off.
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