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Body Cells Carry Emotional Memory
Body Cells Carry Emotional Memory
By Boris Prilutsky
I found the theory that body cells carry emotional memories to be a true one. During my 38 years of clinical experience, numerous times I have witnessed the emotional reactions of my patients/clients to soft tissue mobilization. To more clearly explain this phenomenon, I would like to share one of my most interesting clinical experiences with you that support the theory of emotional memory being carried body cells.
Over 20 years ago, I treated one of the world-renowned boxers of the time from a shoulder injury. The right shoulder had a severe sprain/strain case with suspicion of possible rotator cuff tear. As with all such cases, after 24 hours of cold application procedures (cold application must be applied no more than 10-15 minutes and must be repeated every two hours) we started intensive massage therapy on the unaffected side in order to awake vasomotor reflex that will express by increasing blood supply to the injured extremities. I began to follow the treatment protocol for the above-mentioned purposes, starting to mobilize all groups of rotator cuff muscles layer by layer, as well as the anterior, posterior, and middle part of the deltoid muscles. As he was receiving the massage therapy, suddenly this big, tough, extremely strong man started crying, vocalizing sounds like that of a little boy. He was confused and expressed his embarrassment at breaking down in tears.
Being familiar with the theory that body cells carry emotional memory, I suggested to him to cry out whatever this emotional memory was. The sport clinical psychologist was informed of the incident. During his evaluation, this professional athlete, with the help of the psychologist, recovered a memory from his deep subconscious of an event that happened to him when he was eight years old.
Briefly, the story was that the boy's grandfather (his mother's father) once interrupted the constant fight between the boy's father and alcoholic mother; his grandfather attacked his father with a hammer. Afterward, the father was delivered in critical condition to the hospital and the grandfather was arrested. During this period of time, the little boy future boxing champion fell, off his bicycle and hurt his left shoulder. Crying, he came to his mom who was screaming into the phone, and asked her to comfort him because of the pain in his shoulder. His mother reacted in anger, and took his pleas as just whining for attention and she hit him with the phone a few times on this painful shoulder. All these years, on a subconscious level, this man carried difficult baggage of these memories of events related to losing the most important people in his life; his grandfather and father; and related to rejection by his mother. This kind of crying, emotional release tremendously helped this athlete to get rid of this subconscious trauma. This heavy emotional baggage was terribly disturbing and robbed him of a lot of happiness all these years, without him even knowing it existed. My experience has taught me that usually these emotional releases happen with people at the time when we perform massage (including deep tissue mobilization) in the inhibitory regime. Please be aware that emotional release may not be expressed by crying. Many clients may report to you that they have trouble sleeping and experience worry, or they may start shaking during the massage. Some of them will report unusual emotional sensitivity. Please explain to your clients that all above-mentioned reactions are very positive reactions and within the next few days of going through these reactions, they will feel a great deal better. Regarding the boxer whose case I presented to you, he later reported to me that he never thought that this subconscious baggage could destroy the quality and happiness of his life so much. He told me that thanks to this innocent massage therapy on the healthy shoulder, he was able to find peace within himself.
It's reasonable to assume that the memory of the emotional experience is stored somewhere in the brain - the system that is specialized in memory handling and remained inaccessible, as many other memories a human being experiencing during the life. But the shoulder cells hold the bookmark or a memory address of where the actual memories of the incident were stored in the brain. Thus by activating the shoulder cell you triggered the process of loading the content of that remote memory in the active memory, causing the aforementioned reaction.
As you can see from this episode, clinical psychology approach alone wouldn't be sufficient, because of the emotional memories carried by the cells of his body. Presently, I receive professional referrals from clinical psychologists.
Dear colleagues, I would like to encourage you to contact clinical psychologists in your neighborhoods and to offer them your services to incorporate massage therapy in their treatments. The Latin word "doctor" means educator. After being involved in many cases,at US it is clear to me that we should educate not only our clients about the power and importance of massage therapy, but also other health care practitioners.
Views: 10187
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on
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I understand all too well exactly where you're coming from. Trained in a field best known for an odd fellow named Sigmund, you don the mantle of scientist and lecture those with actual experience in the real world. Oh, yes, your ego is large, and, in my judgment, unfounded on reality. Trying to explain an issue to the willfully ignorant is like groveling in the muck with a pig: pretty soon you realize the pig enjoys it.
Christopher A. Moyer said:I like how you dismiss anything you don't agree with or understand by attributing it to ego, or labeling it an issue of semantics. That must save you a lot of time and mental energy.
When you called me an ass, did you mean a derriere, or a donkey? I like semantics, you see.
Use the psychology textbooks for something besides paperweights, dude. Even you should be able to deduce that I called you a donkey's ass. The rather catty response was earned, Chris: you knew very well what I was referring to. I haven't yet made a judgment call regarding the efficacy of reiki, and will not till after I have studied it. I have, however, judged you, and found you pompous.
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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Raven.Christopher's comment is below.
if I am wrong please correct me.I never comment, that phantom limb syndrome is a 'bookmarks”. In this case limb already do not exist. In my article I described a hands on mobilization of shoulder . When I talked(not in article in comment) about phantom syndrome I have stated that scientists also do not know exactly where this sensitization of pains are stored. Many different opinions on the subject. We just know that this phenomenon exists. In many cases science and especially in medical fields know much less than we are don't know. As well many phenomenons cannot be explained.
he also said: If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. “
I personally cannot recall that Christopher proposed/offered any explanation.how he can know about phantom pains?he is above this simple things .
PS. In regards of Gary W Addis I would recommend to take him very seriously because he is Smart and having analytic mind as well knowledge.
Christopher A. Moyer said: But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but
in basic ways.For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on.
Oh, dear. I'd really hate to degrade the quality of this discourse.
Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
You mean like, "don't be an ass"? That kind of polite?
Gary W Addis said:Ms Travillian, I go by your own words. A few weeks ago during an earlier generation of this thread you lectured me on useless details of the anatomy of the brain; you listed in detail your academic and professional accomplishments. Suitably unimpressed, I reminded all once again of your superior attitude.
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on. Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.
What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.
No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.
"non-judgmental, open mind"--right. Excuse me while I cough up a hairball.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
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please answer the questions.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Raven.Christopher's comment is below.
if I am wrong please correct me.I never comment, that phantom limb syndrome is a 'bookmarks”. In this case limb already do not exist. In my article I described a hands on mobilization of shoulder . When I talked(not in article in comment) about phantom syndrome I have stated that scientists also do not know exactly where this sensitization of pains are stored. Many different opinions on the subject. We just know that this phenomenon exists. In many cases science and especially in medical fields know much less than we are don't know. As well many phenomenons cannot be explained.
he also said: If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. “
I personally cannot recall that Christopher proposed/offered any explanation.how he can know about phantom pains?he is above this simple things .
PS. In regards of Gary W Addis I would recommend to take him very seriously because he is Smart and having analytic mind as well knowledge.
Christopher A. Moyer said: But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but
in basic ways.For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on.
Oh, dear. I'd really hate to degrade the quality of this discourse.
Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
You mean like, "don't be an ass"? That kind of polite?
Gary W Addis said:Ms Travillian, I go by your own words. A few weeks ago during an earlier generation of this thread you lectured me on useless details of the anatomy of the brain; you listed in detail your academic and professional accomplishments. Suitably unimpressed, I reminded all once again of your superior attitude.
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on. Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.
What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.
No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.
"non-judgmental, open mind"--right. Excuse me while I cough up a hairball.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
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Permalink Reply by Ravensara Travillian on
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This is the last time I will say this.
Until you retract your accusations of dishonesty, I will have nothing to do with you, no matter how many times you try to get me to engage with you.
Boris Prilutsky said:please answer the questions.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Raven.Christopher's comment is below.
if I am wrong please correct me.I never comment, that phantom limb syndrome is a 'bookmarks”. In this case limb already do not exist. In my article I described a hands on mobilization of shoulder . When I talked(not in article in comment) about phantom syndrome I have stated that scientists also do not know exactly where this sensitization of pains are stored. Many different opinions on the subject. We just know that this phenomenon exists. In many cases science and especially in medical fields know much less than we are don't know. As well many phenomenons cannot be explained.
he also said: If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. “
I personally cannot recall that Christopher proposed/offered any explanation.how he can know about phantom pains?he is above this simple things .
PS. In regards of Gary W Addis I would recommend to take him very seriously because he is Smart and having analytic mind as well knowledge.
Christopher A. Moyer said: But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but
in basic ways.For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on.
Oh, dear. I'd really hate to degrade the quality of this discourse.
Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
You mean like, "don't be an ass"? That kind of polite?
Gary W Addis said:Ms Travillian, I go by your own words. A few weeks ago during an earlier generation of this thread you lectured me on useless details of the anatomy of the brain; you listed in detail your academic and professional accomplishments. Suitably unimpressed, I reminded all once again of your superior attitude.
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on. Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.
What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.
No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.
"non-judgmental, open mind"--right. Excuse me while I cough up a hairball.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
-
-
When one brays like an ass, one assumes he is a donkey. The comment was earned. He--you-- knew very well my meaning. He got cute in his response. I spanked him for it.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on.
Oh, dear. I'd really hate to degrade the quality of this discourse.
Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
You mean like, "don't be an ass"? That kind of polite?
Gary W Addis said:Ms Travillian, I go by your own words. A few weeks ago during an earlier generation of this thread you lectured me on useless details of the anatomy of the brain; you listed in detail your academic and professional accomplishments. Suitably unimpressed, I reminded all once again of your superior attitude.
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on. Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.
What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.
No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.
"non-judgmental, open mind"--right. Excuse me while I cough up a hairball.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
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I spanked him for it.
That's really, genuinely funny. It's like cows buzzing around a gadfly and thinking they're annoying it.
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Permalink Reply by Christopher A. Moyer on
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I understand all too well exactly where you're coming from. Trained in a field best known for an odd fellow named Sigmund,
That's impressive, Gary. You know the name of a single figure from the history of clinical psychology. That explains where you learned the word ego.
you don the mantle of scientist and lecture those with actual experience in the real world. Oh, yes, your ego is large,
Are you familiar with 'ol Siggy's concept of projection? Ah, nevermind.
and, in my judgment, unfounded on reality. Trying to explain an issue to the willfully ignorant is like groveling in the muck with a pig
Come on man, which is it, a pig or an ass? At least be consistent.
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Chris' comment, and your expressed interpretation of it, illustrates very well that you have understood Boris' meaning all along...that you have known from the beginning of this thread that neither Boris, nor I, nor Noel are claiming actual physical memory is stored within the limbs, at least in a neurological sense. Yet, phantom pain is very real to the amputee who experiences it. As is "memory" of past traumatic psychological injuries that manifested itself in what may have been a minor physical pain. In other words, Boris and the dozens of respected authors who have written on the subject of "muscle memory" are correct. And I am correct in saying that you both are correct. Boris has not disagreed with you, you know. I think everyone involved in this thread is willing to give you the absolution you apparently crave: you are correct--the cells do not actually store memories. Satisfied?
Ravensara Travillian said:
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real.
Chris never denied that; his point rested on the fact that phantom limb pain is very real.
You misunderstood his point, and then reacted to your misunderstanding, rather than what he actually said.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:
Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
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the absolution you apparently crave
you really have a curious way of seeing the world. What on earth would I need absolution for?
Satisfied?
With what passes for professional dialogue, fairness, and tolerance here? No, not really.
Gary W Addis said:Chris' comment, and your expressed interpretation of it, illustrates very well that you have understood Boris' meaning all along...that you have known from the beginning of this thread that neither Boris, nor I, nor Noel are claiming actual physical memory is stored within the limbs, at least in a neurological sense. Yet, phantom pain is very real to the amputee who experiences it. As is "memory" of past traumatic psychological injuries that manifested itself in what may have been a minor physical pain. In other words, Boris and the dozens of respected authors who have written on the subject of "muscle memory" are correct. And I am correct in saying that you both are correct. Boris has not disagreed with you, you know. I think everyone involved in this thread is willing to give you the absolution you apparently crave: you are correct--the cells do not actually store memories. Satisfied?
Ravensara Travillian said:
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real.
Chris never denied that; his point rested on the fact that phantom limb pain is very real.
You misunderstood his point, and then reacted to your misunderstanding, rather than what he actually said.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
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Travilian, are you proclaiming that you too failed to understand my meaning? Shall I repeat the comment in its entirety? Is your reading comprehension so poor that you need to reread a half dozen times? I assume your browser is equipped with a back bottom. I maintain an open mind, dearie, regarding my studies. I confess to quickly forming opinions of people who bray like an ass about nothing. Christopher apparently cannot refute my argument, so he gathered straw and built himself a strawman. Apparently you have decided to stable with him.
nsara Travillian said:
in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.
That was so funny that I just had to see it again.
Gary W Addis said:Sigh. Again playing the semantics game. you call it purple, I call it lavender. Obviously to even a child, I said that I will take up the study of the Eastern modalities without forming preconceived opinion going in-- in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.
Christopher A. Moyer said:I haven't yet been exposed to the energy modalities such as Reiki and Reflexology. Going in, I admit to skepticism--but I am open. I will non judgmentally study the energy modalities in the classroom, and hope like hell that I can be convinced..
Why would you do that nonjudgmentally? Do you mean to say you will literally not use your judgment? And if so, why would you do that?
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No, I'm proclaiming that putting those two phrases next to each other was so funny that I just had to see it again.
Gary W Addis said:
Travilian, are you proclaiming that you too failed to understand my meaning? Shall I repeat the comment in its entirety? Is your reading comprehension so poor that you need to reread a half dozen times? I assume your browser is equipped with a back bottom. I maintain an open mind, dearie, regarding my studies. I confess to quickly forming opinions of people who bray like an ass about nothing. Christopher apparently cannot refute my argument, so he gathered straw and built himself a strawman. Apparently you have decided to stable with him.
nsara Travillian said:
in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.
That was so funny that I just had to see it again.
Gary W Addis said:Sigh. Again playing the semantics game. you call it purple, I call it lavender. Obviously to even a child, I said that I will take up the study of the Eastern modalities without forming preconceived opinion going in-- in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.
Christopher A. Moyer said:I haven't yet been exposed to the energy modalities such as Reiki and Reflexology. Going in, I admit to skepticism--but I am open. I will non judgmentally study the energy modalities in the classroom, and hope like hell that I can be convinced..
Why would you do that nonjudgmentally? Do you mean to say you will literally not use your judgment? And if so, why would you do that?
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Why do you keep calling me "dear" and "dearie"?
Frankly, it's a bit creepy.
Ravensara Travillian said:No, I'm proclaiming that putting those two phrases next to each other was so funny that I just had to see it again.
Gary W Addis said:
Travilian, are you proclaiming that you too failed to understand my meaning? Shall I repeat the comment in its entirety? Is your reading comprehension so poor that you need to reread a half dozen times? I assume your browser is equipped with a back bottom. I maintain an open mind, dearie, regarding my studies. I confess to quickly forming opinions of people who bray like an ass about nothing. Christopher apparently cannot refute my argument, so he gathered straw and built himself a strawman. Apparently you have decided to stable with him.
nsara Travillian said:
in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.
That was so funny that I just had to see it again.
Gary W Addis said:Sigh. Again playing the semantics game. you call it purple, I call it lavender. Obviously to even a child, I said that I will take up the study of the Eastern modalities without forming preconceived opinion going in-- in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.
Christopher A. Moyer said:I haven't yet been exposed to the energy modalities such as Reiki and Reflexology. Going in, I admit to skepticism--but I am open. I will non judgmentally study the energy modalities in the classroom, and hope like hell that I can be convinced..
Why would you do that nonjudgmentally? Do you mean to say you will literally not use your judgment? And if so, why would you do that?
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