Response to "Knot in a muscle' post

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Therese Schwartz on July 11, 2011 at 11:04am

Boris and Stephen, very well put both of you.  I have actually had the Pain Neutralization Technique used on me by one of my therapists.  It was only once so I didn't really get a sense of how well it would help.  

 

Boris, this is not a lot of information but this is from the website of my therapist; maybe it will help a little:

 

http://www.vancesimpson.com/PainNeutralizationTechnique-OklahomaCit...

 

I looked at the link Gordon supplied and I agree that it never says what the technique actually is, nor is there any substantive information about the technique.  

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 11, 2011 at 2:43pm

Gordon. Nothing is bothering me talking to you,but your style of management professional conversation.BTW.material within this attachments do not reflecting specific information on morphology of trigger points,  definition what is it trigger point to be considered, as well no explanation on mechanism how does it work. most of this information is about your treatment clinical outcome .But now by offering Dr. Kaufman's site you are having opportunity to explain us all.

Regards.

Boris

Gordon J. Wallis said:

I will attach a copy of my trigger point explanation that seems to bother you so much? lol  Cant figure out why?  And how  I use my trigger point knowledge at work...only thing is i left out using the neurological reflex technique to remove the trigger point..... but thats my methodology...I dont see any problem with it? lol  my goodness...That is clear for all to read...I dont see why you are against those two attachments?  Thats what i do...???  Six of massage yesterday... six hours the day before.. today I only work a half day.. 3 hours are booked....Im a professional massage therapist Boris..and I can usually make trigger points go away with only a light touch or pull.. almost instantly... Why would I come in here and lie?  Im just telling people what I do..Thats it.  

Boris Prilutsky said:

Gordon. I never said that you are evil .and no one threaten others, at  professional discussion.and  we should try  to manage it in professional manner.Dr.Ross has started discussion by offering article which is scientific review of trigger points. Please read your posts again. Most of them contradicting themselves and sometimes containing ridiculous claims like your way to treat it  by triggering clasp knife reflex .

When I, either Dr.Ross  tried to talk to your reasons, the answer was something like:” you walking on crutches, I put my hands for 20 seconds and you in great health”show me one of  your posts where you offer definition of trigger points, morphology etc.????????? direct me to one of your posts were you explaining the mechanism of your treatment of trigger point therapy???????

In regards of link to Dr. Kaufman website. I couldn't find no definition of trigger points, morphology etc. as well as no explanation  in regards of mechanism / treatment of trigger point therapy just  claims of great success. I mean no explanation what to do either. Please compare information that we offered at our article with  what kind of information offering  Dr. Kaufman’s  website. Exceptions of his ridiculous confusing and uneducated statement which is: THE GOLGI TENDON ORGAN REFLEX When a muscle is under too heavy a load, it relaxes completely or "collapses." This is an inherent guarding mechanism so that, for instance, if one tries to lift more weight than the arm can support, it doesn’t tear the biceps muscle. This reflex is variously known as the clasp knife reflex, the Golgi tendon organ reflex (GTO), or the inverse myotatic reflex^1,6.   “

He Wrote“This reflex is variously known as the clasp knife reflex”.Gordon. this reflex can be triggered only with patients who suffering from difficult neurological disease. Stretch reflex and clasp knife reflex is two absolutely different mechanisms.

And by the way if you will find on this website  explanation and definition of trigger points, morphology etc. as well as   explanation  in regards of mechanism / treatment of trigger point therapy please offer this information. Even these discussions handled ridiculously I'm not regreting to participate

because I believe it is educational and especially not to fall in for this ridiculous websites like  Dr. Kaufman’s.

 

 

 

Gordon J. Wallis said:

The evil one is here again... the blasphemer .. run , run children...  The one who claims to eliminate trigger points not using the classical way      ....lol   I threaten you that much?

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 11, 2011 at 3:07pm

Dear Therese.

I really appreciate your post and opinion on website material. Actually until day off today during this discussion we never knew or  talked about Kaufman’s techniques. As you can see Dr. Ross did  initiate this important discussion by offering article /scientific review of trigger point therapy. At this articles we not only introduced detail information about causes, developments, and morphology of trigger points but also proposed technical approaches including mechanism of ischemic compression.Gordon didn't lose any opportunity to disrupt this important conversations by  not offering nothing to discuss but to telling his stories of success. There is many ways to address trigger points including but not limited to injections of hydrocortisone, to utilize dry needles, as well in our fields to apply ischemic compression. I am talking on conventional scientifically developed and clinically proven known methods of trigger point therapy. Very possible that there is other ways to address them, but if one using name of trigger point therapy one must to give information about how one developed this method, to offer material similar like we presented in article, or straight to say, I don't know how it does work but it does work. In such a case we can make our judgments and decisions to consider this methodology or not. I agree with you Kaufman's site presented very weak and questionable information.

Best wishes.

Boris.

Therese Schwartz said:

Boris and Stephen, very well put both of you.  I have actually had the Pain Neutralization Technique used on me by one of my therapists.  It was only once so I didn't really get a sense of how well it would help.  

 

Boris, this is not a lot of information but this is from the website of my therapist; maybe it will help a little:

 

http://www.vancesimpson.com/PainNeutralizationTechnique-OklahomaCit...

 

I looked at the link Gordon supplied and I agree that it never says what the technique actually is, nor is there any substantive information about the technique.  

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 11, 2011 at 5:42pm

Regarding the PNT.  I don't want to judge it without having experience with it.  But about the golgi tendon reflex.  I was a serious weight trainer for 11 years.  Based on my experience as personal trainer and as an athlete, it is my understanding that the golgi tendon reflex is a a protective mechanism-- it's this guarding that prevents the normal person from lifting a car.  We can do that, actually.  In an emergency situation (very high stress) even a 90 lb housewife is capable of lifting very heavy objects.  But doing so tends to cause injuries to tendons, bones, muscle bellies.  So, if an untrained person decides for the hell of it to lift a car, the golgi tendon reflex activates, and shuts off the muscle-- he can still exert his normal range of strength, but obviously that is insufficient to lift a car, so the weight does not budge and the body is not harmed.  Bicep curling a light weight umpteen repetitions will not bring golgi tendon reflex into play--the lifter simply will not be able to bring the weight past the natural sticking point of the movement, or if he "cheats" the movement past that point, on the eccentric phase (down phase), the lifter will barely be able to slow it down. But that is not the working of the golgi tendon protection mechanism...that is merely muscle exhaustion...loss of endurance.  So, I too think that Kaufman is mislabeling what his treatment brings about.  

The golgi tendon reflex is not the same thing as the clasp knife reflex, IMO.  After watching a video of clasp knife reflex in action, I tried it on myself.  I put a leg into the standard doctor office reflex test position, and with the opposite hand tightly clasped the arm of the chair, then tapped the tibia just below the knee-- the lower leg kicked out with surprising force, a much faster reflexive action than I achieved when I didn't "distract" the thinking part of the brain by contracting another muscle.  We're talking reflex here-- and without doubt the brain can inhibit reflex actions.  At powerlifting meets, before a lifter went to the platform, we would yell in his face, even smack the man in the mouth, whatever it took to concentrate his mind and overcome the protective golgi tendon reflex-- that's how world records get broken.  For if the mind doubts for even a moment that a weight can be lifted, the lifter might as well not even try.  I just don't think it is possible for a therapist to incite the golgi tendon reflex on a massage table.  So, Kaufman is more likely to be bringing into play another reflex.  However he does it, Gordon says it does work, and I trust Gordon.  Why would he lie about it?

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Permalink Reply by Therese Schwartz on July 11, 2011 at 8:40pm

Gary, I don't think he's lying about it and it obviously works.  I just think no one, including Kaufman, has sufficiently explained what it is that the technique does.  Having experienced it for myself I personally wasn't very impressed - I think I must be one of the people Kaufman mentions that it doesn't work for.  But then again it's also possible that the Myofascial Release stuff the therapist did on me in the same session was painful enough to counter act the effects of the PNT! :)  One thing I do know is that since that session my left shoulder (upper traps, levator scapula) will let go at least some, and it never did that before.  I didn't put that together until PNT came up on this thread, so maybe it actually did me some good.

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 11, 2011 at 11:17pm

• Gary .I never claimed that Gordon is lying about results achievement. The problem is in his style to manage professional conversation. Please read again all his posts and pay attention on language and articulation and content of this posts. More Dr. Ross tried to pay him respect in communication more arrogant he became . Let's not pay attention how he replied to my posts. Pay attention on his reply to Dr.Ross’ posts. Just read again all his posts. This site is an educational site where professionals can exchange ideas and to learn each from other. Trigger point discussion was initiated by Dr. Ross by offering article on the subject. Respectfully it should continue around topics of trigger point therapy including if there is room to challenge presented material or/and post questions if something not clear. Gordon constantly disrupted discussion and disregard our articles by proposing controversial and sometime ridiculous claims like he treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex . In fact this reflex is possible to trigger in case and secondary too difficult pathological conditions and it nothing have to do with trigger point therapies.He didn't challenge proposed information just distracted .
• You are a student at massage program and happens that you know about clasp knife reflex. But many other maybe not and will start to continue to repeat this nonsense including communicating with medical doctors etc. I personally just got enough of all of this and am positive that it was right decision to challenge his posts . Please read again all his posts and tell me if this was respectful professional conversation on his end ? Just don't forget to reply to this question . Up front thank you .You said you trust Gordon. Good for you. Now please answer to me, Do you support his way of handling this discussions? Do you support him making these claims, and many of them ? Will appreciate your answer.
• >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
• you said :”I just don't think it is possible for a therapist to incite the golgi tendon reflex on a massage table. “ Yes Gary if possible. appropriately administrate passive stretching will activate  stretch receptors  and will trigger stretch reflex. We taking advantage on this when providing comprehensive treatment in cases of muscular pathology as well in sports massage we using it for maintenance of normal resting muscular tone.
• Regards.
• Boris

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 12, 2011 at 6:04am

Boris,your friend in his very first post attacked, claiming that light TP pressure always results in myelosis-- IOW, the doctor says that everyone must do it the way Turchininov says to do it.  That attitude is arrogant and just wrong.  There are several ways to heal a spinal problem; likewise, there are several hundred proven methodologies for working with muscles and fascia.Incidentally, Ross did not start this thread-- he hijacked it when he attacked statements made by others.

 

Gordon has consistently said that he is not trying to tell anyone else how to do anything, merely how successfully  he does it-- Ross insists that his way is the only way.  So who is the offender here?  I don't think it is Gordon, who as is his right has been defending himself. 

 

Boris, Ross, and to a lesser degree you, have been arrogant.  I haven't noticed any arrogance from Gordon.  Arrogance, know it all attitude really burns my toast, especially when it belittles other therapists.  I defended you awhile back when you were being attacked.  There is a right and a wrong.  And it is flat wrong to label Gordon's methods ridiculous until, like Therese, you have experienced it for yourself.  Hell, Boris, I am a mere student, and even I know that.

 

Clasp knife and golgi tendon reflex may be anatomically the same, but not in action.  I have viewed and read everything that is freely available about AIS (Active Isolated Stretching), which may be what you are referring to.  Kaufman, mistakenly I believe, is trying to hold his methodology very close: he wants to charge big bucks to teach it to individual therapists.  Does it work? Hell, I don't know--but neither do you.  Until we have experienced the treatment for ourselves we cannot say unequivocally that it does not.  If someone claims that hey heal a joint by severing ligaments with a knife, yeah, that should be challenged.  Only you and Ross are making the assumption that PNT is in some way harmful.

 

Disagree, Boris, by all means disagree.  RESPECTFULLY disagree, and give your reasons for disagreeing.

Boris Prilutsky said:

• Gary .I never claimed that Gordon is lying about results achievement. The problem is in his style to manage professional conversation. Please read again all his posts and pay attention on language and articulation and content of this posts. More Dr. Ross tried to pay him respect in communication more arrogant he became . Let's not pay attention how he replied to my posts. Pay attention on his reply to Dr.Ross’ posts. Just read again all his posts. This site is an educational site where professionals can exchange ideas and to learn each from other. Trigger point discussion was initiated by Dr. Ross by offering article on the subject. Respectfully it should continue around topics of trigger point therapy including if there is room to challenge presented material or/and post questions if something not clear. Gordon constantly disrupted discussion and disregard our articles by proposing controversial and sometime ridiculous claims like he treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex . In fact this reflex is possible to trigger in case and secondary too difficult pathological conditions and it nothing have to do with trigger point therapies.He didn't challenge proposed information just distracted .
• You are a student at massage program and happens that you know about clasp knife reflex. But many other maybe not and will start to continue to repeat this nonsense including communicating with medical doctors etc. I personally just got enough of all of this and am positive that it was right decision to challenge his posts . Please read again all his posts and tell me if this was respectful professional conversation on his end ? Just don't forget to reply to this question . Up front thank you .You said you trust Gordon. Good for you. Now please answer to me, Do you support his way of handling this discussions? Do you support him making these claims, and many of them ? Will appreciate your answer.
• >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
• you said :”I just don't think it is possible for a therapist to incite the golgi tendon reflex on a massage table. “ Yes Gary if possible. appropriately administrate passive stretching will activate  stretch receptors  and will trigger stretch reflex. We taking advantage on this when providing comprehensive treatment in cases of muscular pathology as well in sports massage we using it for maintenance of normal resting muscular tone.
• Regards.
• Boris

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 12, 2011 at 8:41am

Gary. I really would like to continue discussion with you but you mixed a lot of things and in order

to reply let's clarified . Again please remember in order for us not to be arrogant we  will have to discuss this  post subject and in professional manner.

You say:” I defended you awhile back when you were being attacked. There is a right and a wrong.  “

Gary.I do remember and appreciated that you took part in my discussion”human body cells carry emotional memory”

in article I have stated that no one knows where this emotions are stored  and will be responsible to assume that this negative emotional memories are stored somewhere within brain but body parts “ bookmarking”this memories and therefore when we mobilizing this soft tissues it triggering important  emotional releases. two people arrogantly disrupt discussion by telling that this is wrong to claim that storage of this memories is somewhere in brain and it is terrible to use word “ bookmarking”. Many times and repeatedly I said that they distracting very important conversation, and that no one knows where these storage is and repeatedly I asked those people to post their opinion on where about the storages, and what word instead of “ bookmarking” they would use. Instead to offer explanation this people continued to disrupt, and   it's true you post and you  stated, that they should offer opinion or not to disrupt. I did appreciate your participants at my discussion. To some degree Gordon attempted to disrupt this conversation and  you  supporting it by saying:” And it is flat wrong to label Gordon's methods ridiculous until, like Therese, you have experienced it for yourself. “

Now please  explain me what is it “Gordon's methods”?????

this was the problem of  conversation destruction. Gordon never challenge presented information, but every time and multiple times he made different claims some of them ridiculous such is claiming trigger of  Clasp knife reflex as an methodology for trigger point therapy. I never called his methods ridiculous because I don't know what his method is. But his claim was ridiculous. Now please explain what is Gordon's methodology??? Then maybe we will continue our discussion.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

you said: Clasp knife and golgi tendon reflex may be anatomically the same, but not in action. “

By nature this is two absolutely different functions/ actions and having nothing to do with anatomical structures.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

You claimed that Dr. Ross hijacked something, or was arrogant in some of his posts.

Gary.The best service that you can do to this discussion is if you will direct us(all on the record) to this  posts. I guarantee you if it will be wrong statements I will say so. Dr. Ross is a very close friend but sometime professionaly we disagree and discussing it with mutual respect and in professional manner. I have a cousin who's very good expert in our fields. Exactly like Dr. Ross my cousin started in surgery departments and come out to medical massage field .All my life and until day off today I was much closer to him then to my sister. Pretty often I lacked with him in debates and we not sparing each other from express professional opinion. There is no such a thing in our professional mentality. As a professional Dr. Ross grew up in the same professional culture and adopted the same professional mentality.this I know for a fact .BTW. He is out teaching and most likely today will be back. Let's see maybe he will reply by himself.

Regards.

Boris

Gary W Addis said:

Boris,your friend in his very first post attacked, claiming that light TP pressure always results in myelosis-- IOW, the doctor says that everyone must do it the way Turchininov says to do it.  That attitude is arrogant and just wrong.  There are several ways to heal a spinal problem; likewise, there are several hundred proven methodologies for working with muscles and fascia.Incidentally, Ross did not start this thread-- he hijacked it when he attacked statements made by others.

 

Gordon has consistently said that he is not trying to tell anyone else how to do anything, merely how successfully  he does it-- Ross insists that his way is the only way.  So who is the offender here?  I don't think it is Gordon, who as is his right has been defending himself. 

 

Boris, Ross, and to a lesser degree you, have been arrogant.  I haven't noticed any arrogance from Gordon.  Arrogance, know it all attitude really burns my toast, especially when it belittles other therapists.  I defended you awhile back when you were being attacked.  There is a right and a wrong.  And it is flat wrong to label Gordon's methods ridiculous until, like Therese, you have experienced it for yourself.  Hell, Boris, I am a mere student, and even I know that.

 

Clasp knife and golgi tendon reflex may be anatomically the same, but not in action.  I have viewed and read everything that is freely available about AIS (Active Isolated Stretching), which may be what you are referring to.  Kaufman, mistakenly I believe, is trying to hold his methodology very close: he wants to charge big bucks to teach it to individual therapists.  Does it work? Hell, I don't know--but neither do you.  Until we have experienced the treatment for ourselves we cannot say unequivocally that it does not.  If someone claims that hey heal a joint by severing ligaments with a knife, yeah, that should be challenged.  Only you and Ross are making the assumption that PNT is in some way harmful.

 

Disagree, Boris, by all means disagree.  RESPECTFULLY disagree, and give your reasons for disagreeing.

Boris Prilutsky said:

• Gary .I never claimed that Gordon is lying about results achievement. The problem is in his style to manage professional conversation. Please read again all his posts and pay attention on language and articulation and content of this posts. More Dr. Ross tried to pay him respect in communication more arrogant he became . Let's not pay attention how he replied to my posts. Pay attention on his reply to Dr.Ross’ posts. Just read again all his posts. This site is an educational site where professionals can exchange ideas and to learn each from other. Trigger point discussion was initiated by Dr. Ross by offering article on the subject. Respectfully it should continue around topics of trigger point therapy including if there is room to challenge presented material or/and post questions if something not clear. Gordon constantly disrupted discussion and disregard our articles by proposing controversial and sometime ridiculous claims like he treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex . In fact this reflex is possible to trigger in case and secondary too difficult pathological conditions and it nothing have to do with trigger point therapies.He didn't challenge proposed information just distracted .
• You are a student at massage program and happens that you know about clasp knife reflex. But many other maybe not and will start to continue to repeat this nonsense including communicating with medical doctors etc. I personally just got enough of all of this and am positive that it was right decision to challenge his posts . Please read again all his posts and tell me if this was respectful professional conversation on his end ? Just don't forget to reply to this question . Up front thank you .You said you trust Gordon. Good for you. Now please answer to me, Do you support his way of handling this discussions? Do you support him making these claims, and many of them ? Will appreciate your answer.
• >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
• you said :”I just don't think it is possible for a therapist to incite the golgi tendon reflex on a massage table. “ Yes Gary if possible. appropriately administrate passive stretching will activate  stretch receptors  and will trigger stretch reflex. We taking advantage on this when providing comprehensive treatment in cases of muscular pathology as well in sports massage we using it for maintenance of normal resting muscular tone.
• Regards.
• Boris

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Therese Schwartz on July 12, 2011 at 9:05am

My "two cents":  Boris has repeatedly and I think respectfully tried to get Gordon to describe his technique.  This is not about attacking Gordon himself; all of us know that Gordon does good things for people and he's had really good information to share with me when I needed help.  Again, let me repeat, this is not about Gordon personally.  It is not a personal attack.  But Gordon has repeatedly refused to describe his technique, responding to the requests for information with what essentially amounts to temper tantrums.  These temper tantrums hijack the professional nature of this forum and really distract from why we are all here which is to learn and share.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 12, 2011 at 11:33am

Hi Therese.

no doubt your post is a contribution for setting up some standards for professional conversation that everyone will be able to learn from.thanks a lot. Just using the opportunity would like to add,that  not healthy ambitions,personal ego efc,shouldn't be involved in this conversation. Including personal agendas and interests that will stay above professional interest of our industry. I mean myself produces educational DVDs as well Dr. Ross wrote wonderful three text books.you can assume that I would love all of you to purchase this educational material and  for 2 reasons.A)I invest a lot of time and money in productions and would like to reimburse myself and of course to make some profitsB) I'm very passioned to share my many years experiences with other massage therapists, and hoping it will advance our industry and will allow my colleagues to make more money by providing better results. Does it mean that in professional discussion I should directly to push my agenda?????no . absolutely no room for this in professional discussions.in this case by proposing our article we first of all offered education,by providing detailed explanations in regards of trigger points and trigger points therapy.not half information and then telling you if you want to know more by our material. I don't know what Gordon's as well Gary's agenda was in this discussion, but if not agenda then wrong behavior at professional conversation.no distractions but questions or different professional opinions will contribute to reputation of this site and will advance our industry. If one feel he/she familiar with topics of discussion that shouldn't bother to spend time and distract others who have interest in the subject. Thanks again Therese.

Best wishes.

Boris

PS.very soon will come out next issue of "science of massage journal" at this issue I'm describing case of abdominal/ visceral massage utilization and role of of this modality in cases of severe lower back pain. Also much more important information will be presented at this issue. I will share a link with you when it will be out.

massage that evidently

Therese Schwartz said:

My "two cents":  Boris has repeatedly and I think respectfully tried to get Gordon to describe his technique.  This is not about attacking Gordon himself; all of us know that Gordon does good things for people and he's had really good information to share with me when I needed help.  Again, let me repeat, this is not about Gordon personally.  It is not a personal attack.  But Gordon has repeatedly refused to describe his technique, responding to the requests for information with what essentially amounts to temper tantrums.  These temper tantrums hijack the professional nature of this forum and really distract from why we are all here which is to learn and share.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Therese Schwartz on July 12, 2011 at 12:32pm

Boris, my new massage therapist has some of your DVD's and she really likes them!  I have clients with low back pain so your upcoming article sounds really interesting!

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

At a personal level, I have gotten too caught up in all this and need to back off from reading the forum so often.  It's become an interference and a distraction from my work and I'm re-prioritizing things.  I will still check in weekly to see what I can learn!  

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 12, 2011 at 12:57pm

Honestly, friend Boris, I have not read any attempt of Gordon or for that matter anyone else to "manage" the conversation.  With respect for YOU, I think your friend Ross was the arrogant one in his responses.  Go back and reread his very first posting in the thread started by Allyson about post-massage soreness, wherein Ross essentially said that using light pressure is dangerous-- not merely not helpful but dangerous to the client...That light pressure will fool you into thinking it is  released and  will lead to development of myelosis.  When Gordon disagreed with that statement, saying that he regularly employed light touch on TPs without causing harm, both you and Ross became rather combative.  The attitude seems to be that if one disagrees with Ross/your belief, then he or she is arrogant.  If someone writes that he releases TPs by smacking them with a hammer very hard, obviously all reputable MTs would feel compelled to vociferously disagree.  Gordon's methodology, whether or not you believe it to be helpful, is unlikely to cause anyone serious harm.  And, as Therese has pointed out, she knows from personal experience that the method works.  To me, Boris, Ross/Boris' argument is about as nonsensical as someone saying that unless you always begin massaging the feet first you will harm the client.

Therese, in a private message, Gordon told me that the technique is quite simple to perform, and easily learned once informed of the "secret."  Gordon paid the man for the secret, and ethically feels that he should not give it out, thereby depriving Kaufman of income.  I understand Gordon's ethical stance, and cannot say it is wrong.  Perhaps if Boris or his friend the doctor asked for an explanation of the technique from Kauufman, inventor of the technique, they could then come back to the forum and reveal the secret to all.

 

Now,I am not claiming Gordon's technique is effective-- I don't know anything about it.  But, then, neither do you or Boris or Ross.  To flatly decry the effectiveness of a treatment on the basis of a few words is arrogance personified.  Boris, remember, do you, that I said the exact same thing months ago when a couple of people were effectively calling you an idiot for believing that "muscles have memories?"

 

At the end of your msg to Therese, you said:"I don't know what Gordon's as well Gary's agenda was in this discussion, but if not agenda then wrong behavior at professional conversation.no distractions but questions or different professional opinions will contribute to reputation of this site and will advance our industry. If one feel he/she familiar with topics of discussion that shouldn't bother to spend time and distract others who have interest in the subject.

 

I beg your pardon!  Just what "agenda" does GARY have?-- Boris, please tell me.  No? Then I will tell you.  I want to read open discussions of techniques--I want to learn all there is, then I will make up my own mind what to believe.  If you and Ross disagree with Gordon, maybe you should have written a private message to him and explain your reasons for disagreement.  Posting criticism of Gordon's professional massage technique publicly without having witnessed it in action is flat out unethical.  You are entitled to your opinion. But opinion stated as absolute scientific fact (as in "light pressure on TPs causes myelosis") borders on slander of a skilled, experienced professional. 

 

 

Boris Prilutsky said:

• Gary .I never claimed that Gordon is lying about results achievement. The problem is in his style to manage professional conversation. Please read again all his posts and pay attention on language and articulation and content of this posts. More Dr. Ross tried to pay him respect in communication more arrogant he became . Let's not pay attention how he replied to my posts. Pay attention on his reply to Dr.Ross’ posts. Just read again all his posts. This site is an educational site where professionals can exchange ideas and to learn each from other. Trigger point discussion was initiated by Dr. Ross by offering article on the subject. Respectfully it should continue around topics of trigger point therapy including if there is room to challenge presented material or/and post questions if something not clear. Gordon constantly disrupted discussion and disregard our articles by proposing controversial and sometime ridiculous claims like he treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex . In fact this reflex is possible to trigger in case and secondary too difficult pathological conditions and it nothing have to do with trigger point therapies.He didn't challenge proposed information just distracted .
• You are a student at massage program and happens that you know about clasp knife reflex. But many other maybe not and will start to continue to repeat this nonsense including communicating with medical doctors etc. I personally just got enough of all of this and am positive that it was right decision to challenge his posts . Please read again all his posts and tell me if this was respectful professional conversation on his end ? Just don't forget to reply to this question . Up front thank you .You said you trust Gordon. Good for you. Now please answer to me, Do you support his way of handling this discussions? Do you support him making these claims, and many of them ? Will appreciate your answer.
• >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
• you said :”I just don't think it is possible for a therapist to incite the golgi tendon reflex on a massage table. “ Yes Gary if possible. appropriately administrate passive stretching will activate  stretch receptors  and will trigger stretch reflex. We taking advantage on this when providing comprehensive treatment in cases of muscular pathology as well in sports massage we using it for maintenance of normal resting muscular tone.
• Regards.
• Boris

• ▶ Reply

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