massage and bodywork professionals
a community of practitioners
Evidence based practice
Line 931 of the fist draft states “The scientific process and its importance to evidence based medicine.” Implying the EBP must be based totally in science or it is not objective. This is controversial. I think that while we agree that EBP is based of objectively measure results I believe that the best EBP combines science and Wholistic observations to achieve the best approach. If you reduce something to just what you can measure and fits into a tight scientific theory you are limiting yourself to the very simplistic.
I also believe that are we work on people who are very complex we develop intuitive sense that can be a very valuable part of deciding how to help people if we apply EBP to both left-brained and right brained thinking. In think business when confronted with the unexplainable we either reject it, develop some pseudo-scientific or fantastical explanation for it. Instead we could simply acknowledge that we cannot explain it but we can see what results it produces and objectively test the results of what we do. If we reject it altogether we are reducing the person to a simple set of measurements which give us an incomplete picture. If we dream up an explanation that does not fit we end of following the false theory not the observation. We have intuitive right brained thinking to deal with complex issues and to reject what we cannot reduce to left-brained reason is to use half of what we can.
We need to be trained how to use the right-brain in an objective way. In many ways this is much harder than science.
I also believe that are we work on people who are very complex we develop intuitive sense that can be a very valuable part of deciding how to help people if we apply EBP to both left-brained and right brained thinking. In think business when confronted with the unexplainable we either reject it, develop some pseudo-scientific or fantastical explanation for it. Instead we could simply acknowledge that we cannot explain it but we can see what results it produces and objectively test the results of what we do. If we reject it altogether we are reducing the person to a simple set of measurements which give us an incomplete picture. If we dream up an explanation that does not fit we end of following the false theory not the observation. We have intuitive right brained thinking to deal with complex issues and to reject what we cannot reduce to left-brained reason is to use half of what we can.
We need to be trained how to use the right-brain in an objective way. In many ways this is much harder than science.
Views: 105
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on
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Noel, you are right on the button. This is a lark and they know it.
Noel Norwick said:Carl: Given that I cannot keep count of all the trademarked/registered forms of massage (for me this includes bodywork & energy work) I believe/suggest that the MTBOK project would do well to start with creating/finding a consensus regarding what knowledge an entry level practitioner must have. Additionally, I believe/suggest that massage practitioners who work with people suffering with M.D. diagnosed medical conditions would do well to develop a consensus regarding defining/identifying a legally defensible approach to "evidence-based practice". That is, if they wish to develop a relatively "safe harbor" legal defense against charges of malpractice.
Regarding prostitutes masquerading as massage practitioners: Licensing of massage practitioners has done little to restrict prostitution in Los Angeles while ever increasing minimum educational standards does not appear to have increased practitioner incomes or positive client health outcomes. As a recent graduate of the Los Angeles Police Department's Community Police Academy training program, I'm confident saying that the police find it easy to distinguish prostitutes and whore houses from massage practitioners and businesses. If controlling prostitution was the real concern, politicians would direct the police to investigate and district attorneys to prosecute it rather than continue pretending that burdening massage practitioners with licensing constraints provides a significant social benefit.
Carl W. Brown said:Noel, I agree that if you are determining the entry level requirements you need to start by studying documented non-temporary harm to the public that can be mitigated by proper education. That should be the point of licensing standards. I think we need to contact the insurance companies and examine the claims.
The reason we have licensing is because prostitutes use the term “massage” for acts that are not massage. It is about the work not the practice. However, the law has been perverted to create protectionist barriers in terms of money and time to entry to the professions. But worse they are using the law to artificially distort the profession.
I agree with UC San Diego’s Center for Public Interest law.
For fifteen years, CPIL's theory regarding the regulation of trades and professions has been consistent:
Government should not interfere with the marketplace unless absolutely necessary.
Government should regulate a particular trade or profession only after an honest assessment of the marketplace and any flaws which (a) present a threat of irreparable harm, or (b) prevent normal marketplace functioning from driving out incompetent, dishonest, or impaired practitioners.
Licensing is one form of regulation and it is the most market-intrusive and restrictive form of regulation. It should be reserved for trades and professions in which incompetence is likely to cause irreparable harm that is, harm for which money cannot compensate. If there is likely irreparable harm, then a prior restraint type barrier to entry (licensing) which addresses and prevents that precise harm should be imposed; additionally, the licensing agency should set industry wide standards of conduct and ethics, and police violations of those standards through a vigorous enforcement program.
In the absence of probable irreparable harm, numerous regulatory alternatives to licensing should be considered. These include the posting of a bond to ensure a fund to compensate injured consumers, a certification program which has the effect of disclosing information to consumers about the qualifications of a practitioner and protects the use of a title, a permit program, disclosure requirements, a rule of liability, straight statutory prohibitions on certain activities, tax incentives to encourage certain behaviors, antitrust litigation to restore the normally-functioning marketplace, etc. -
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Permalink Reply by Shawn Maria Brinza on
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Yes,yes, intuition and setting intent, I have been very surprised to find that a lot of schools never even bring these subjects up... I am so thankful that mine did. Our work is part energetic and it does need to be explained as part of our venues. Touching on as many modalities as can be experienced in the chosen time frame. Truly, lets keep basics being basic...
Therapists don't begin to truly feel the oneness of their work until they get a good 1000 bodys under their belts. The ones that never get it don't last... the ones that get that leave school with that thirst for more, more, more are the ones that advance.
Prostitution and massage should never be said in the same sentence. We go through a pretty intense screening before we can be licensed. As long as we don't allow our practice to be infected. I live in Fl. and let me say that its obviously not against the law for a man to ask for sex in fla. I have calls asking for sensual massage fairly often. When I explain thats not happening they politely don't book. I can only wish that we could have those men arrested. Policing our own is the only answer to stopping whatever prostitution might be taking place. Like I said, its not against the law to ask, if your the customer... -
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And the other side of that is... maybe it is law enforcement finally doing their jobs seeing if therapists are legit. We keep hollering for them to police the industry. I know a lot of arrests have happened recently in FL. And I agree with you, Prostitution and massage should never be said in the same sentence. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
Shawn Maria Brinza said:Yes,yes, intuition and setting intent, I have been very surprised to find that a lot of schools never even bring these subjects up... I am so thankful that mine did. Our work is part energetic and it does need to be explained as part of our venues. Touching on as many modalities as can be experienced in the chosen time frame. Truly, lets keep basics being basic...
Therapists don't begin to truly feel the oneness of their work until they get a good 1000 bodys under their belts. The ones that never get it don't last... the ones that get that leave school with that thirst for more, more, more are the ones that advance.
Prostitution and massage should never be said in the same sentence. We go through a pretty intense screening before we can be licensed. As long as we don't allow our practice to be infected. I live in Fl. and let me say that its obviously not against the law for a man to ask for sex in fla. I have calls asking for sensual massage fairly often. When I explain thats not happening they politely don't book. I can only wish that we could have those men arrested. Policing our own is the only answer to stopping whatever prostitution might be taking place. Like I said, its not against the law to ask, if your the customer... -
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Permalink Reply by Noel Norwick on
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Mike: Possibly it's different in your state. Here in Los Angeles, local regulation of massage practitioners did nothing to inhibit prostitution. The new state supported certification program is unlikely to do any more. More educational requirements, licensing and investigation of legitimate massage practitioners/businesses will not solve this very unfortunate problem.
If the police were truly tasked (by politicians and the public) to arrest and prosecute prostitutes, they would start by investigating the myriad sexually suggestive ads placed (in phone books, free papers, the internet) by people/businesses claiming to provide massage. Additionally, few would argue that the police, just like everyone else, cannot easily tell the difference between a whore house and a legitimate massage business. The problem seems to arise because of the costs of developing a prosecutable/winnable case.
Mike Hinkle said:And the other side of that is... maybe it is law enforcement finally doing their jobs seeing if therapists are legit. We keep hollering for them to police the industry. I know a lot of arrests have happened recently in FL. And I agree with you, Prostitution and massage should never be said in the same sentence. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
Shawn Maria Brinza said:Yes,yes, intuition and setting intent, I have been very surprised to find that a lot of schools never even bring these subjects up... I am so thankful that mine did. Our work is part energetic and it does need to be explained as part of our venues. Touching on as many modalities as can be experienced in the chosen time frame. Truly, lets keep basics being basic...
Therapists don't begin to truly feel the oneness of their work until they get a good 1000 bodys under their belts. The ones that never get it don't last... the ones that get that leave school with that thirst for more, more, more are the ones that advance.
Prostitution and massage should never be said in the same sentence. We go through a pretty intense screening before we can be licensed. As long as we don't allow our practice to be infected. I live in Fl. and let me say that its obviously not against the law for a man to ask for sex in fla. I have calls asking for sensual massage fairly often. When I explain thats not happening they politely don't book. I can only wish that we could have those men arrested. Policing our own is the only answer to stopping whatever prostitution might be taking place. Like I said, its not against the law to ask, if your the customer... -
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Permalink Reply by Gordon on
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Well said !
At least there are still a few of us who can pursue " truth " outside of the box -
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I agree. I said it was "maybe". But,I agree some see these regulations as unneeded. I can not speak to CA's certification issues. But yes, in Florida there have been licesened massage therapists performing the illicit activities and they have lost their license and the regulation allowed the state to take their license for these activities. It is a sad but true fact.
Florida is cracking down in a lot of ways. Not all of them make sense. But, no rules is not the answer either.
Noel Norwick said:Mike: Possibly it's different in your state. Here in Los Angeles, local regulation of massage practitioners did nothing to inhibit prostitution. The new state supported certification program is unlikely to do any more. More educational requirements, licensing and investigation of legitimate massage practitioners/businesses will not solve this very unfortunate problem.
If the police were truly tasked (by politicians and the public) to arrest and prosecute prostitutes, they would start by investigating the myriad sexually suggestive ads placed (in phone books, free papers, the internet) by people/businesses claiming to provide massage. Additionally, few would argue that the police, just like everyone else, cannot easily tell the difference between a whore house and a legitimate massage business. The problem seems to arise because of the costs of developing a prosecutable/winnable case.
Mike Hinkle said:And the other side of that is... maybe it is law enforcement finally doing their jobs seeing if therapists are legit. We keep hollering for them to police the industry. I know a lot of arrests have happened recently in FL. And I agree with you, Prostitution and massage should never be said in the same sentence. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
Shawn Maria Brinza said:Yes,yes, intuition and setting intent, I have been very surprised to find that a lot of schools never even bring these subjects up... I am so thankful that mine did. Our work is part energetic and it does need to be explained as part of our venues. Touching on as many modalities as can be experienced in the chosen time frame. Truly, lets keep basics being basic...
Therapists don't begin to truly feel the oneness of their work until they get a good 1000 bodys under their belts. The ones that never get it don't last... the ones that get that leave school with that thirst for more, more, more are the ones that advance.
Prostitution and massage should never be said in the same sentence. We go through a pretty intense screening before we can be licensed. As long as we don't allow our practice to be infected. I live in Fl. and let me say that its obviously not against the law for a man to ask for sex in fla. I have calls asking for sensual massage fairly often. When I explain thats not happening they politely don't book. I can only wish that we could have those men arrested. Policing our own is the only answer to stopping whatever prostitution might be taking place. Like I said, its not against the law to ask, if your the customer... -
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Mike: I totally agree with you that "No Rules" is not the answer! Initially developing seemingly enforceable/workable legal regulations/rules and creating reasonable mechanisms for amending/dropping rules that fail to serve the public and our "professional" interests is the challenge we face.
Mike Hinkle said:I agree. I said it was "maybe". But,I agree some see these regulations as unneeded. I can not speak to CA's certification issues. But yes, in Florida there have been licesened massage therapists performing the illicit activities and they have lost their license and the regulation allowed the state to take their license for these activities. It is a sad but true fact.
Florida is cracking down in a lot of ways. Not all of them make sense. But, no rules is not the answer either.
Noel Norwick said:Mike: Possibly it's different in your state. Here in Los Angeles, local regulation of massage practitioners did nothing to inhibit prostitution. The new state supported certification program is unlikely to do any more. More educational requirements, licensing and investigation of legitimate massage practitioners/businesses will not solve this very unfortunate problem.
If the police were truly tasked (by politicians and the public) to arrest and prosecute prostitutes, they would start by investigating the myriad sexually suggestive ads placed (in phone books, free papers, the internet) by people/businesses claiming to provide massage. Additionally, few would argue that the police, just like everyone else, cannot easily tell the difference between a whore house and a legitimate massage business. The problem seems to arise because of the costs of developing a prosecutable/winnable case.
Mike Hinkle said:And the other side of that is... maybe it is law enforcement finally doing their jobs seeing if therapists are legit. We keep hollering for them to police the industry. I know a lot of arrests have happened recently in FL. And I agree with you, Prostitution and massage should never be said in the same sentence. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
Shawn Maria Brinza said:Yes,yes, intuition and setting intent, I have been very surprised to find that a lot of schools never even bring these subjects up... I am so thankful that mine did. Our work is part energetic and it does need to be explained as part of our venues. Touching on as many modalities as can be experienced in the chosen time frame. Truly, lets keep basics being basic...
Therapists don't begin to truly feel the oneness of their work until they get a good 1000 bodys under their belts. The ones that never get it don't last... the ones that get that leave school with that thirst for more, more, more are the ones that advance.
Prostitution and massage should never be said in the same sentence. We go through a pretty intense screening before we can be licensed. As long as we don't allow our practice to be infected. I live in Fl. and let me say that its obviously not against the law for a man to ask for sex in fla. I have calls asking for sensual massage fairly often. When I explain thats not happening they politely don't book. I can only wish that we could have those men arrested. Policing our own is the only answer to stopping whatever prostitution might be taking place. Like I said, its not against the law to ask, if your the customer... -
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Permalink Reply by Carl W. Brown on
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I have tried to see how effective licensing is in stopping prostitution. The only document that I found from law enforcement agencies was the following:
http://www.bayswan.org/traffick/CA_Traffick.pdf
Page 15 (pdf page 25) stats that licensing actually helps cover such activities.
I looks and Maryland’s web site a couple of years ago and about haft of the licenses were counterfeit and used to cover illegal activities. The others were legitimate but I did not find any cases where the licensing process was used to stop prostitution.
In the testimony on the San Rafael licensing law I saw that some houses were sending girls to massage school and advancing them the tuition. Then they use the debt to try to force the girls into prostitution to repay the debt.
While some look at massage licensing as a way to control prostitution, I think we as a profession should not consider this when proposing licensing legislation other than to take into account that many legislators and police departments do. Consider the problem is not the prostitutes actually practice massage and that if the police can actually catch people practicing massage they can catch them in prostitution. Also setting of another law to violate does not stop people from breaking the original law.
Setting cost barriers for entry does not stop them either. They have more money than legitimate students. Money also lets people circumvent the law like the crime syndicate the bought a school to issue false certificates so that they could get state issued licenses. -
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Carl: I agree completely with your statement that; "I think we as a profession should not consider this when proposing licensing legislation other than to take into account that many legislators and police departments do. "
Carl W. Brown said:I have tried to see how effective licensing is in stopping prostitution. The only document that I found from law enforcement agencies was the following:
http://www.bayswan.org/traffick/CA_Traffick.pdf
Page 15 (pdf page 25) stats that licensing actually helps cover such activities.
I looks and Maryland’s web site a couple of years ago and about haft of the licenses were counterfeit and used to cover illegal activities. The others were legitimate but I did not find any cases where the licensing process was used to stop prostitution.
In the testimony on the San Rafael licensing law I saw that some houses were sending girls to massage school and advancing them the tuition. Then they use the debt to try to force the girls into prostitution to repay the debt.
While some look at massage licensing as a way to control prostitution, I think we as a profession should not consider this when proposing licensing legislation other than to take into account that many legislators and police departments do. Consider the problem is not the prostitutes actually practice massage and that if the police can actually catch people practicing massage they can catch them in prostitution. Also setting of another law to violate does not stop people from breaking the original law.
Setting cost barriers for entry does not stop them either. They have more money than legitimate students. Money also lets people circumvent the law like the crime syndicate the bought a school to issue false certificates so that they could get state issued licenses. -
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I disagree, the article says that when human slave merchants are trying to hide their women slaves they use massage parlors to do it. It says fake massage license are purchased. Fake certifications would be even easier. They use massage "parlors" for fronts. The article says nothing about licensing, nice try, Carl.
Noel Norwick said:Carl: I agree completely with your statement that; "I think we as a profession should not consider this when proposing licensing legislation other than to take into account that many legislators and police departments do. "
Carl W. Brown said:I have tried to see how effective licensing is in stopping prostitution. The only document that I found from law enforcement agencies was the following:
http://www.bayswan.org/traffick/CA_Traffick.pdf
Page 15 (pdf page 25) stats that licensing actually helps cover such activities.
I looks and Maryland’s web site a couple of years ago and about haft of the licenses were counterfeit and used to cover illegal activities. The others were legitimate but I did not find any cases where the licensing process was used to stop prostitution.
In the testimony on the San Rafael licensing law I saw that some houses were sending girls to massage school and advancing them the tuition. Then they use the debt to try to force the girls into prostitution to repay the debt.
While some look at massage licensing as a way to control prostitution, I think we as a profession should not consider this when proposing licensing legislation other than to take into account that many legislators and police departments do. Consider the problem is not the prostitutes actually practice massage and that if the police can actually catch people practicing massage they can catch them in prostitution. Also setting of another law to violate does not stop people from breaking the original law.
Setting cost barriers for entry does not stop them either. They have more money than legitimate students. Money also lets people circumvent the law like the crime syndicate the bought a school to issue false certificates so that they could get state issued licenses. -
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Mike: Not sure what you're disagreeing about:
1. How do you think licensing of massage practitioners will significantly restrict the activities of "human slave merchants"?
2. Do you think the penalties for practicing massage or operating a massage business without a license are or should be as severe as those already in place for prostitution and/or slavery?
Mike Hinkle said:I disagree, the article says that when human slave merchants are trying to hide their women slaves they use massage parlors to do it. It says fake massage license are purchased. Fake certifications would be even easier. They use massage "parlors" for fronts. The article says nothing about licensing, nice try, Carl.
Noel Norwick said:Carl: I agree completely with your statement that; "I think we as a profession should not consider this when proposing licensing legislation other than to take into account that many legislators and police departments do. "
Carl W. Brown said:I have tried to see how effective licensing is in stopping prostitution. The only document that I found from law enforcement agencies was the following:
http://www.bayswan.org/traffick/CA_Traffick.pdf
Page 15 (pdf page 25) stats that licensing actually helps cover such activities.
I looks and Maryland’s web site a couple of years ago and about haft of the licenses were counterfeit and used to cover illegal activities. The others were legitimate but I did not find any cases where the licensing process was used to stop prostitution.
In the testimony on the San Rafael licensing law I saw that some houses were sending girls to massage school and advancing them the tuition. Then they use the debt to try to force the girls into prostitution to repay the debt.
While some look at massage licensing as a way to control prostitution, I think we as a profession should not consider this when proposing licensing legislation other than to take into account that many legislators and police departments do. Consider the problem is not the prostitutes actually practice massage and that if the police can actually catch people practicing massage they can catch them in prostitution. Also setting of another law to violate does not stop people from breaking the original law.
Setting cost barriers for entry does not stop them either. They have more money than legitimate students. Money also lets people circumvent the law like the crime syndicate the bought a school to issue false certificates so that they could get state issued licenses. -
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Mike, the point is that the fake licenses are used to keep the police from looking further. If officers enter a questionable establishment and are shown what looks like valid licenses they have no ability to check the validity of the licenses on site so they have the legal presumption that the place is legitimate. I suspect that with the load that the police have, it is unlikely that they will follow up later back at police headquarters. If the tactic were not successful in most cases, the establishments would not spend the money. If there is no licensing then the owners cannot use fake licenses to keep the cops away.
Looking at Maryland I saw that the crime syndicate actually sent many their people to school to get license. When San Francisco passed a new law the owner of the school that I went to said that there were suddenly a lot of school applications all in cash. So what do you do? Train the prostitutes together with your legitimate students. Talk about separating ourselves from the seamy side.
Mike Hinkle said:I disagree, the article says that when human slave merchants are trying to hide their women slaves they use massage parlors to do it. It says fake massage license are purchased. Fake certifications would be even easier. They use massage "parlors" for fronts. The article says nothing about licensing, nice try, Carl.
Noel Norwick said:Carl: I agree completely with your statement that; "I think we as a profession should not consider this when proposing licensing legislation other than to take into account that many legislators and police departments do. "
Carl W. Brown said:I have tried to see how effective licensing is in stopping prostitution. The only document that I found from law enforcement agencies was the following:
http://www.bayswan.org/traffick/CA_Traffick.pdf
Page 15 (pdf page 25) stats that licensing actually helps cover such activities.
I looks and Maryland’s web site a couple of years ago and about haft of the licenses were counterfeit and used to cover illegal activities. The others were legitimate but I did not find any cases where the licensing process was used to stop prostitution.
In the testimony on the San Rafael licensing law I saw that some houses were sending girls to massage school and advancing them the tuition. Then they use the debt to try to force the girls into prostitution to repay the debt.
While some look at massage licensing as a way to control prostitution, I think we as a profession should not consider this when proposing licensing legislation other than to take into account that many legislators and police departments do. Consider the problem is not the prostitutes actually practice massage and that if the police can actually catch people practicing massage they can catch them in prostitution. Also setting of another law to violate does not stop people from breaking the original law.
Setting cost barriers for entry does not stop them either. They have more money than legitimate students. Money also lets people circumvent the law like the crime syndicate the bought a school to issue false certificates so that they could get state issued licenses. -
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