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Toxins and Water
OK, I am fresh out of school and need help. I am being challenged by participants on a Triathlon forum. The question was raised, 'Does massage release lactic acid (or any other toxins) in the muscles that then needs to be flushed out by drinking plenty of water afterwards?' (The standard answer given to clients as we conclude a session) Well, my fellow triathletes are science geeks and need clinical studies for proof. You would not believe the extent they have gone to disprove this claim. I have looked until I can't see straight and I have found nothing supporting this either. I did find that lactic acid is not the cause of exercise fatigue (rather a ph imbalance in the muscles) and is usually burned by the body as intensity starts to decrease. The triathletes do not deny the benefits of massage (as they line up at the tents post race), but are not easily swayed without the clinical proof.
This is the ammo I used: and got blasted!
Excerpt from Complete Review Guide, Barron:
"Massage facilitates the removal of metabolic waste and inflammatory byproducts by the increase in blood flow and also by increased lymph formation and removal. The delivery of oxygen and nutrients to cells is enhanced through massage because of the improved vascular and lymphatic circulation, reducing ischemia. Local blood flow is increased by arteriolar and capillary dilation."
I eagerly await your response.
This is the ammo I used: and got blasted!
Excerpt from Complete Review Guide, Barron:
"Massage facilitates the removal of metabolic waste and inflammatory byproducts by the increase in blood flow and also by increased lymph formation and removal. The delivery of oxygen and nutrients to cells is enhanced through massage because of the improved vascular and lymphatic circulation, reducing ischemia. Local blood flow is increased by arteriolar and capillary dilation."
I eagerly await your response.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Keith Eric Grant on
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Sorry David. You've run into one of the myths of massage that was long ago countered by research in exercise physiology.
Here's one set of references I put together a few years back. I'd also added to those under another Ning-based group that Whitney Lowe had started. Probably the best overall review is a paper I cite from Bruce Gladden.
I doubt if many of the links still work, but back in 2000, I'd done an entire breakdown and discussion of lactate and glycolysis under Lactating Mythers. A little more recently, I'd explored the concept of "moving toxins" in a column titled Flushing out myths.
The best indication of needing to drink more water is the "yellow pee" test. If it's dark, drink more. If it's light, you're drinking enough.
The overall determination of circulation is the heart capacity and heart rate. The paper(s) by Tiidus among the first link to references above indicate no change in arterial blood flow with massage. You wouldn't expect a change unless you increase the recipients heart rate. You can redistribute blood flow a bit. Normalizing hypertonic muscles reduces the pressure on the surrounding tissues. Circulation is essentially powered by the pressure difference between the heart and the recipient tissue. You can also cause some increased superficial circulation, at the expense of deeper circulation, by getting superficial tissues to dilate, creating what Rich Phaigh referred to as a "durable hyperemia". Likely, from all the reasearch I've looked at, the most beneficial effect, apart the the psychological support, is from normalizing hypertonic muscles.
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Permalink Reply by Laura Allen on
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Keith is right. I've had such a rude awakening on these forums to find out that so much of what we are told in massage school isn't true. Bodhi Haraldsson and Paul Ingraham have shared a lot of research on their sites that shoot holes in so many of the things we've been taught, including the lactic acid theory.
Paul also has a site called Save Yourself where he has a section about debunking popular myths. He printed one that dispelled the idea of epsom salt baths helping soreness, and told me he got so much hate mail about it, he would never have believed people felt so strongly about something as silly as epsom salts.
The difference in Keith, Bodhi, and Paul, and the rest of us is that they are into evidence-based scientific research, while most of us just took the teacher's word for whatever we were taught in school. There is so much more to know.
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Permalink Reply by Choice Kinchen on
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I have had a hard time trying to change fellow therapist's beliefs about the 8 8oz of water a day myth. There was studies done at the Mayo Clinic and Dartmouth that dispel this popular myth, which was taught at my school. I can't find the links to these studies, but will try to post them later if I find them.
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Permalink Reply by David Wells on
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I would like to see this. I don't know if my office (full time job, not massage) is normal, but noone here drinks any amount of water to speak of! Soda's all day and their health record speaks for itself. I have wondered if there is a correlation between dehydration and hypertonic muscles? As a triathlete I drink half of my body weight in oz. every day, plus fresh juice. My body lets me know when I have not given it the attention (water) it desires.
Choice Kinchen said:I have had a hard time trying to change fellow therapist's beliefs about the 8 8oz of water a day myth. There was studies done at the Mayo Clinic and Dartmouth that dispel this popular myth, which was taught at my school. I can't find the links to these studies, but will try to post them later if I find them.
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Laura Allen said:Keith is right. I've had such a rude awakening on these forums to find out that so much of what we are told in massage school isn't true. Bodhi Haraldsson and Paul Ingraham have shared a lot of research on their sites that shoot holes in so many of the things we've been taught, including the lactic acid theory.
Paul also has a site called Save Yourself where he has a section about debunking popular myths. He printed one that dispelled the idea of epsom salt baths helping soreness, and told me he got so much hate mail about it, he would never have believed people felt so strongly about something as silly as epsom salts.
The difference in Keith, Bodhi, and Paul, and the rest of us is that they are into evidence-based scientific research, while most of us just took the teacher's word for whatever we were taught in school. There is so much more to know.
Laura,
This is strongly among the reasons that I was so hard-nosed about evidence-base and objective knowledge in the voluminous Body of Knowledge discussion. Once misinformation gets formally "accepted", it is almost impossible to eradicate after the fact. The only filtering likely to be successful is upfront.
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I don't think you're hard-nosed! You're just standing up for the truth and I appreciate that. Thank you for all you do for the rest of us.
Keith Eric Grant said:Laura Allen said:Keith is right. I've had such a rude awakening on these forums to find out that so much of what we are told in massage school isn't true. Bodhi Haraldsson and Paul Ingraham have shared a lot of research on their sites that shoot holes in so many of the things we've been taught, including the lactic acid theory.
Paul also has a site called Save Yourself where he has a section about debunking popular myths. He printed one that dispelled the idea of epsom salt baths helping soreness, and told me he got so much hate mail about it, he would never have believed people felt so strongly about something as silly as epsom salts.
The difference in Keith, Bodhi, and Paul, and the rest of us is that they are into evidence-based scientific research, while most of us just took the teacher's word for whatever we were taught in school. There is so much more to know.
Laura,
This is strongly among the reasons that I was so hard-nosed about evidence-base and objective knowledge in the voluminous Body of Knowledge discussion. Once misinformation gets formally "accepted", it is almost impossible to eradicate after the fact. The only filtering likely to be successful is upfront.
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David Wells said:I would like to see this. I don't know if my office (full time job, not massage) is normal, but noone here drinks any amount of water to speak of! Soda's all day and their health record speaks for itself. I have wondered if there is a correlation between dehydration and hypertonic muscles? As a triathlete I drink half of my body weight in oz. every day, plus fresh juice. My body lets me know when I have not given it the attention (water) it desires.
Sodas are mostly water. In terms of providing the fluid that the body needs for its various reactions and circulation they may be sufficient. The problems is that they also add carbohydrates as sugars which they body doesn't necessarily need except after significant exercise. There's a growing body of research linking Type 2 diabetes / metabolic syndrome with obesity. On the other hand, there are research indications that carbohydrate intake, including soft drinks, may mitigate immune system decrements associated with strenuous exercise.
In prolonged exercise in hot weather (e.g. marathon running), one has to be careful of taking in water in the absence of electrolytes. It can result in hyponatremia. Drinking too much water can, in extreme cases, be fatal. This happened in the last couple of years to a woman who drank copious amounts as part of a radio contest...and died. Most sports drinks are designed to maintain electrolyte balance as well as provide glycogen -- i.e. they are essentially "sweet sweat".
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Permalink Reply by lee kalpin on
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No, neither regular exercise or massage releases lactic acid .Lactic acid build- up in a specific muscle group can occur from constant overload over a brief period of time. For example, if you were to run up 10 flights of stairs, you might get a sudden burning in your quads that would make it very difficult to continue. That is a symptom of lactic acid being released into the muscle more quickly than it can be dispersed. If you were to stop and rub your leg for a few minutes you would be able to continue climbing as the lactic acid would be absorbed from the muscle .
Your science geek clients are completely correct. Lactic acid is not responsible for DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness). This is what I call one of the "Myths of Massage" that gets passed down from teachers to students for generations of massage classes. If you can't find a scientific source for it, THROW IT OUT.
Many of the old theories of why massage works, cannot be substantiated by scientific evidence. In this case, I would not
consider Barron a scientific source.
I would suggest going to a book on physiology rather than a massage techniques text.
Bottom Line. Having a drink of water is rarely a bad thing for a healthy person. Do our clients have to drink after a massage to flush out toxins? NO. .
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Laura. I'm glad that so many therapists are finding the websites for Bodhi Haraldsson and Paul Ingraham. I hope you have noticed that both these therapists are from BC, Canada, where the educational standard is 3000 hours. It is a strong argument for MT courses that have more hours dedicated to study of the sciences.
Lee Kalpin
Laura Allen said:I don't think you're hard-nosed! You're just standing up for the truth and I appreciate that. Thank you for all you do for the rest of us.
Keith Eric Grant said:Laura Allen said:Keith is right. I've had such a rude awakening on these forums to find out that so much of what we are told in massage school isn't true. Bodhi Haraldsson and Paul Ingraham have shared a lot of research on their sites that shoot holes in so many of the things we've been taught, including the lactic acid theory.
Paul also has a site called Save Yourself where he has a section about debunking popular myths. He printed one that dispelled the idea of epsom salt baths helping soreness, and told me he got so much hate mail about it, he would never have believed people felt so strongly about something as silly as epsom salts.
The difference in Keith, Bodhi, and Paul, and the rest of us is that they are into evidence-based scientific research, while most of us just took the teacher's word for whatever we were taught in school. There is so much more to know.
Laura,
This is strongly among the reasons that I was so hard-nosed about evidence-base and objective knowledge in the voluminous Body of Knowledge discussion. Once misinformation gets formally "accepted", it is almost impossible to eradicate after the fact. The only filtering likely to be successful is upfront.
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you must be on Slowtwitch.com ..... they argue about everything and anything..... you will get arguments here also...
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Actually, Tri Talk.com And yes a lot of debating. The good thing is we can jump to a different topic and be great encouragers for one another in spite of our differences. My hopes are I will find that here as well.
Michael McAleese said:you must be on Slowtwitch.com ..... they argue about everything and anything..... you will get arguments here also...
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you will here. Some of the best Minds of the massage industry are here...
David Wells said:Actually, Tri Talk.com And yes a lot of debating. The good thing is we can jump to a different topic and be great encouragers for one another in spite of our differences. My hopes are I will find that here as well.
Michael McAleese said:you must be on Slowtwitch.com ..... they argue about everything and anything..... you will get arguments here also...
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