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NCB is answering questions about the advanced cert
The Exam Development Director has put up a new blog answering questions about the advanced certification project.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Angela Palmier on
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Bert, Mike and Darcy---please confirm that I have captured everything:
Bert: Needs Assessment Survey results
Mike: Two entries that you posted were not published on the NCB site (please send me the date that you posted); You feel that 4 discussions going on re: advanced certification along with Gloria's survey (8 out of 10) reflect the opinion of the profession; Survey's weren't sent to enough people--and/or access to the surveys were limited; The release date of April is "wrong"; the process needs to be slowed down.
Darcy: with regard to the comment of the WMC---you mention that you felt there was a scare tactic? Can you please explain what you meant by this?
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Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on
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Hi Angela!
Well, I feel that five sources have produced about 80/20 percent against advanced certification. You are only citing your internal numbers. I've seen one therapist on this site in support besides you and Liz and that was Jennifer that works for you. Yea, I think there is a disconnect between what your people are saying is "momentum" and what therapists are writing and saying on numerous site, including facebook.
I see a small group is supporting it. Outside of the NCB, I see hardly any support. You said you don't see the other Associations saying you should not do this. Why would they? It was what you were supposed to be doing these last years and chose to do everything else. I don't understand the rush to an April exam date, even prior to the May BOK release.
I also wondered if you had organized the document Liz mentioned:
" A Step-by-Step document will be posted on the webpage within the week to explain each step and let you see where we are in the process."
In the second to last paragraph of her story at http://ncbtmb.typepad.com/advcert/2009/11/why-who-how.html
And if people taking the NCB Advanced Certification test will
1. Have to have passed the first level NCB certification? (Be a NCB Member already?)
2. Will be provided with NCB Advanced Certification Booklet to study?
You are right, there has been an image problem and hopefully NCB will realize that suing states to make them retain NCB as their sole or even shared tester, if that is not what the state wants, doesn't help that image!
I will get those post questions for you. I have them in word documents some where. Thanks!
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Permalink Reply by Gloria Coppola on
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Just to clarify Mike, it's not that people who are responding to the survey are against the advanced certification. To be clear they are stating that it should not come from the NCB. Most people have commented that they feel either the massage school or the instructors teaching should provide the advanced certification...and believe it or not, many people think there is 'already' an advanced certification. So, many are confused to say the least. Others have already rec'd advanced certification in programs they have attended and so they do not understand why would they want to pay for another from the NCB and what would it prove?
The survey is showing the frustration the MT's, the confusion and the misinformation that they have.
I agree Mike where is the NCB getting their information?
I did take their survey FYI - and I answered the 'instructors' should be providing the certification in their specific modality. Most people I have talked to have told me they responded the same way. hmmm???
Mike Hinkle said:Here's my point! There are four, at least, discussions talking about this issue and Gloria Coppola's survey as well. It looks like 8 out of 10 people are "against" advanced certification, especially, as a test from NCB. Why is this going forward? They are using info from 1997 to go ahead now. Therapists had less organizations back then and were trying to get established. There was not as many people with their hand out towards therapists. Times are different.
Liz says 4,000 surveys are being reviewed. Were they only sent to NCB members? I have been a NCB member since I graduated, I did not get a survey. Were they sent to the initial NCB members that all said "yes", at that time? I do not see or hear from but a handful of people, for this effort and almost all of them are NCB approved instructors.
To release this exam in April is wrong. I know there is a fantastic group working behind the scenes on this, some are my friends, but this effort, I feel, will be for naught, if things are not slowed down. The MTBOK, they are saying is a reason to go forward, will not even be released to the public until May in Seattle, WA.
Slow down, gather more information across the profession and it may work. Keep forcing and I think it will be rebuffed. If no one takes a "voluntary" test, what has been gained?
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Wagley on
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The primary purpose of the Needs Assessment Survey is to provide information from the profession itself to members of the Advanced Certification Task Force so they can make informed decisions regarding eligibility requirements and ensure advanced certification represents the definition and type of credential called for by the massage community at large. Once they have studied the findings and completed this initial phase of their work, NCBTMB will make a summary of the survey available to the profession.
Bert Davich said:I just recalled the advanced certification survey. I completed the survey, then had several online conversations regarding the survey itself. Other therapist who commented agreed with my evaluation below.
The survey was designed (as surveys often are) with assumptions and omissions that channeled the outcome in a certain direction. Most of the possible answers to questions were not an answer of my choice. I did fill in the blank "other" but I doubt these answers carried any weight for obvious reasons.
I checked the NCB site and cannot find the survey results posted, although the "re certification survey" results are available (106 responses)
I think the NCB should publish the survey results or tell us why they will not.
I am going to the NCB site posted above "NCB is answering questions about the advanced cert" and request they publish the survey results.
I also suggest EVERYONE should do this.
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Right! I agree. Therapists want it the way they are getting advanced instruction now, from instructors, most of who are NCB Certified instructors. Where, they do get advanced instruction and hands-on primarily. I do not see support for a NCB test.
Gloria Coppola said:Just to clarify Mike, it's not that people who are responding to the survey are against the advanced certification. To be clear they are stating that it should not come from the NCB. Most people have commented that they feel either the massage school or the instructors teaching should provide the advanced certification...and believe it or not, many people think there is 'already' an advanced certification. So, many are confused to say the least. Others have already rec'd advanced certification in programs they have attended and so they do not understand why would they want to pay for another from the NCB and what would it prove?
The survey is showing the frustration the MT's, the confusion and the misinformation that they have.
I agree Mike where is the NCB getting their information?
I did take their survey FYI - and I answered the 'instructors' should be providing the certification in their specific modality. Most people I have talked to have told me they responded the same way. hmmm???
Mike Hinkle said:Here's my point! There are four, at least, discussions talking about this issue and Gloria Coppola's survey as well. It looks like 8 out of 10 people are "against" advanced certification, especially, as a test from NCB. Why is this going forward? They are using info from 1997 to go ahead now. Therapists had less organizations back then and were trying to get established. There was not as many people with their hand out towards therapists. Times are different.
Liz says 4,000 surveys are being reviewed. Were they only sent to NCB members? I have been a NCB member since I graduated, I did not get a survey. Were they sent to the initial NCB members that all said "yes", at that time? I do not see or hear from but a handful of people, for this effort and almost all of them are NCB approved instructors.
To release this exam in April is wrong. I know there is a fantastic group working behind the scenes on this, some are my friends, but this effort, I feel, will be for naught, if things are not slowed down. The MTBOK, they are saying is a reason to go forward, will not even be released to the public until May in Seattle, WA.
Slow down, gather more information across the profession and it may work. Keep forcing and I think it will be rebuffed. If no one takes a "voluntary" test, what has been gained?
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Just getting ready to head out and saw your reply!
The five sources you mention are the survey from Gloria and the discussions on this site? Just checking because I want to make sure that I haven't missed anything--and want to ensure that information is getting to NCB.
Also, for clarification-no one works for me at NCB. Our relationship is contractual and we were brought on board to provide industry relations services, so while I would love nothing more than to have Jennifer as an employee, it's not the case. As far as citing internal numbers, I remember typing the combined numbers of the AMTA and NCB members/certificants, which are published and not internal. I'll look back at my previous posts to make sure.
There have been quite a few posts on the Advanced Certification website posting very positive comments, and there have been a significant number of calls and direct emails. Unfortunately not all of those people post to blogs, etc., and some of them have even expressed some fear in doing so. Hopefully, as the dialogue continues, more people will post their thoughts and we'll have a good mixture of comments to read.
As far as me organizing documents??? Mike, I am obviously not a writer, and my computer prowess, well, let's just say it's not so hot----so no, I don't create documents for NCB. Chris and I do our best to ensure that the communications between the industry and NCB are clear and that "mis" communications can be avoided as much as possible.
As far as any eligibility requirements, I know that the determination has yet to be made, but as I posted to Mr. Lauterstein's comments, I would think that entry level certification certainly could be considered, but there would have to be more than that, right? As far as a study guide---well, that's waaaaaayyyyyyy off in the distance. If you're interested in working on that if and when the advanced certification study guide project starts, I'll make sure the right people know to contact you.
I'm sure that nothing I will say--and I don't blame you---will make you feel more comfortable about NCB. It's going to take actions, consistent actions for people to believe in the changes. They're coming. As far as the suing states comment---I know that there were challenges, but I'm not sure that there was ever an actual law suit filed. I'd hesitate to comment directly on any legal actions, as that is not my area for sure. What I do feel comfortable to say, and you can read between the lines, is a quote that I gave for the press release announcing that Chris and I were working with NCB..."The NCB of the past is missing in action" That is why we are there.
Now---off to see the opening of New Moon!!!!!
Take care!
Angie
Mike Hinkle said:Hi Angela!
Well, I feel that five sources have produced about 80/20 percent against advanced certification. You are only citing your internal numbers. I've seen one therapist on this site in support besides you and Liz and that was Jennifer that works for you. Yea, I think there is a disconnect between what your people are saying is "momentum" and what therapists are writing and saying on numerous site, including facebook.
I see a small group is supporting it. Outside of the NCB, I see hardly any support. You said you don't see the other Associations saying you should not do this. Why would they? It was what you were supposed to be doing these last years and chose to do everything else. I don't understand the rush to an April exam date, even prior to the May BOK release.
I also wondered if you had organized the document Liz mentioned:
" A Step-by-Step document will be posted on the webpage within the week to explain each step and let you see where we are in the process."
In the second to last paragraph of her story at http://ncbtmb.typepad.com/advcert/2009/11/why-who-how.html
And if people taking the NCB Advanced Certification test will
1. Have to have passed the first level NCB certification? (Be a NCB Member already?)
2. Will be provided with NCB Advanced Certification Booklet to study?
You are right, there has been an image problem and hopefully NCB will realize that suing states to make them retain NCB as their sole or even shared tester, if that is not what the state wants, doesn't help that image!
I will get those post questions for you. I have them in word documents some where. Thanks!
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Thank you for your answers Angela. I just wondered if Liz had completed the document. I think if it is going to be across the profession. A lot more input is needed. How many folks outside of NCB were polled or was it even possible?
Jennifer still is internal, to NCB. Nothing wrong with that. Just haven't seen others in support. What site has the "quite a few positive comments"? There is no reason anyone should fear expressing their opinion,here. Please tell them we welcome them and their discussions.
Well, I hope your positiveness let's them understand, therapists don't like a heavy hand by NCB towards states. What happened in Oregon should never happen again. If they are serious about their image, they will realize that. It is the number one complaint I have heard and personally have with them as well. They are only as strong in this profession as their membership makes them. But like you said, you aren't the lawyer.
Have a great evening and enjoy the New Moon!
Angela Palmier said:Just getting ready to head out and saw your reply!
The five sources you mention are the survey from Gloria and the discussions on this site? Just checking because I want to make sure that I haven't missed anything--and want to ensure that information is getting to NCB.
Also, for clarification-no one works for me at NCB. Our relationship is contractual and we were brought on board to provide industry relations services, so while I would love nothing more than to have Jennifer as an employee, it's not the case. As far as citing internal numbers, I remember typing the combined numbers of the AMTA and NCB members/certificants, which are published and not internal. I'll look back at my previous posts to make sure.
There have been quite a few posts on the Advanced Certification website posting very positive comments, and there have been a significant number of calls and direct emails. Unfortunately not all of those people post to blogs, etc., and some of them have even expressed some fear in doing so. Hopefully, as the dialogue continues, more people will post their thoughts and we'll have a good mixture of comments to read.
As far as me organizing documents??? Mike, I am obviously not a writer, and my computer prowess, well, let's just say it's not so hot----so no, I don't create documents for NCB. Chris and I do our best to ensure that the communications between the industry and NCB are clear and that "mis" communications can be avoided as much as possible.
As far as any eligibility requirements, I know that the determination has yet to be made, but as I posted to Mr. Lauterstein's comments, I would think that entry level certification certainly could be considered, but there would have to be more than that, right? As far as a study guide---well, that's waaaaaayyyyyyy off in the distance. If you're interested in working on that if and when the advanced certification study guide project starts, I'll make sure the right people know to contact you.
I'm sure that nothing I will say--and I don't blame you---will make you feel more comfortable about NCB. It's going to take actions, consistent actions for people to believe in the changes. They're coming. As far as the suing states comment---I know that there were challenges, but I'm not sure that there was ever an actual law suit filed. I'd hesitate to comment directly on any legal actions, as that is not my area for sure. What I do feel comfortable to say, and you can read between the lines, is a quote that I gave for the press release announcing that Chris and I were working with NCB..."The NCB of the past is missing in action" That is why we are there.
Now---off to see the opening of New Moon!!!!!
Take care!
Angie
Mike Hinkle said:Hi Angela!
Well, I feel that five sources have produced about 80/20 percent against advanced certification. You are only citing your internal numbers. I've seen one therapist on this site in support besides you and Liz and that was Jennifer that works for you. Yea, I think there is a disconnect between what your people are saying is "momentum" and what therapists are writing and saying on numerous site, including facebook.
I see a small group is supporting it. Outside of the NCB, I see hardly any support. You said you don't see the other Associations saying you should not do this. Why would they? It was what you were supposed to be doing these last years and chose to do everything else. I don't understand the rush to an April exam date, even prior to the May BOK release.
I also wondered if you had organized the document Liz mentioned:
" A Step-by-Step document will be posted on the webpage within the week to explain each step and let you see where we are in the process."
In the second to last paragraph of her story at http://ncbtmb.typepad.com/advcert/2009/11/why-who-how.html
And if people taking the NCB Advanced Certification test will
1. Have to have passed the first level NCB certification? (Be a NCB Member already?)
2. Will be provided with NCB Advanced Certification Booklet to study?
You are right, there has been an image problem and hopefully NCB will realize that suing states to make them retain NCB as their sole or even shared tester, if that is not what the state wants, doesn't help that image!
I will get those post questions for you. I have them in word documents some where. Thanks!
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Permalink Reply by Bert Davich on
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Hi Angela,
Regarding your statement...
"There have been quite a few posts on the Advanced Certification website posting very positive comments, and there have been a significant number of calls and direct emails. Unfortunately not all of those people post to blogs, etc., and some of them have even expressed some fear in doing so. Hopefully, as the dialogue continues, more people will post their thoughts and we'll have a good mixture of comments to read"
I visited the NCB site and the link DIRECTLY from the NCB site to advanced certification (http://ncbtmb.typepad.com/advcert/) shows NO comments
When I go to the url posted on Laura Allen's discussion (http://ncbtmb.typepad.com/advcert/2009/11/why-who-how.html) I see a number of comments and questions, some of which are negative in tone, some of which appear to be neutral in tone, but none of which are supportive.
Could you please post the url to the positive comments you noted in the above statement?
Also it would be nice if you could explain why the NCB website url to the advanced certification Q & A has not been updated and therefore shows no comments. I realize this could be a lapse in web update attention, but it does not look good for an organization that wants to institute policy that according to their own numbers will affect 300,000 therapists.
Angela Palmier said:Just getting ready to head out and saw your reply!
The five sources you mention are the survey from Gloria and the discussions on this site? Just checking because I want to make sure that I haven't missed anything--and want to ensure that information is getting to NCB.
Also, for clarification-no one works for me at NCB. Our relationship is contractual and we were brought on board to provide industry relations services, so while I would love nothing more than to have Jennifer as an employee, it's not the case. As far as citing internal numbers, I remember typing the combined numbers of the AMTA and NCB members/certificants, which are published and not internal. I'll look back at my previous posts to make sure.
There have been quite a few posts on the Advanced Certification website posting very positive comments, and there have been a significant number of calls and direct emails. Unfortunately not all of those people post to blogs, etc., and some of them have even expressed some fear in doing so. Hopefully, as the dialogue continues, more people will post their thoughts and we'll have a good mixture of comments to read.
As far as me organizing documents??? Mike, I am obviously not a writer, and my computer prowess, well, let's just say it's not so hot----so no, I don't create documents for NCB. Chris and I do our best to ensure that the communications between the industry and NCB are clear and that "mis" communications can be avoided as much as possible.
As far as any eligibility requirements, I know that the determination has yet to be made, but as I posted to Mr. Lauterstein's comments, I would think that entry level certification certainly could be considered, but there would have to be more than that, right? As far as a study guide---well, that's waaaaaayyyyyyy off in the distance. If you're interested in working on that if and when the advanced certification study guide project starts, I'll make sure the right people know to contact you.
I'm sure that nothing I will say--and I don't blame you---will make you feel more comfortable about NCB. It's going to take actions, consistent actions for people to believe in the changes. They're coming. As far as the suing states comment---I know that there were challenges, but I'm not sure that there was ever an actual law suit filed. I'd hesitate to comment directly on any legal actions, as that is not my area for sure. What I do feel comfortable to say, and you can read between the lines, is a quote that I gave for the press release announcing that Chris and I were working with NCB..."The NCB of the past is missing in action" That is why we are there.
Now---off to see the opening of New Moon!!!!!
Take care!
Angie
Mike Hinkle said:Hi Angela!
Well, I feel that five sources have produced about 80/20 percent against advanced certification. You are only citing your internal numbers. I've seen one therapist on this site in support besides you and Liz and that was Jennifer that works for you. Yea, I think there is a disconnect between what your people are saying is "momentum" and what therapists are writing and saying on numerous site, including facebook.
I see a small group is supporting it. Outside of the NCB, I see hardly any support. You said you don't see the other Associations saying you should not do this. Why would they? It was what you were supposed to be doing these last years and chose to do everything else. I don't understand the rush to an April exam date, even prior to the May BOK release.
I also wondered if you had organized the document Liz mentioned:
" A Step-by-Step document will be posted on the webpage within the week to explain each step and let you see where we are in the process."
In the second to last paragraph of her story at http://ncbtmb.typepad.com/advcert/2009/11/why-who-how.html
And if people taking the NCB Advanced Certification test will
1. Have to have passed the first level NCB certification? (Be a NCB Member already?)
2. Will be provided with NCB Advanced Certification Booklet to study?
You are right, there has been an image problem and hopefully NCB will realize that suing states to make them retain NCB as their sole or even shared tester, if that is not what the state wants, doesn't help that image!
I will get those post questions for you. I have them in word documents some where. Thanks!
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Hi Bert- oddly enough they are posted under the section regarding posting comments. Gotta go-movie is about to start!
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Hello Jennifer,
I understand the purpose of the survey. I also have knowledge regarding the science of surveying population groups.
I do believe that most therapist's would like to see the survey results, question by question, not a summary. I recall getting the survey in an email from the NCBTMB that was sent to members. I'm sure this information is on file and easily provided.
My comment, which was not answered in your comment answer below, was in regard to the 'crafting' of the questions and possible answers themselves. In particular the narrow range of possible answer choices that created a framework that limited the outcome of results. If the task force is to make informed decisions based on the survey, the survey Q&A's must reflect valid questions of concern and also contain answers that are not limited to reflect predetermined desired results. My evaluation is that this was not the case with the survey.
If you feel that my statement is unfounded, please publish the questions and answers (not just a summary) that were in the survey and If I am unable to support this statement on the logical basis of the actual Q&A's you will receive my unqualified apology.
Regards,
Bert Davich
Jennifer Wagley said:The primary purpose of the Needs Assessment Survey is to provide information from the profession itself to members of the Advanced Certification Task Force so they can make informed decisions regarding eligibility requirements and ensure advanced certification represents the definition and type of credential called for by the massage community at large. Once they have studied the findings and completed this initial phase of their work, NCBTMB will make a summary of the survey available to the profession.
Bert Davich said:I just recalled the advanced certification survey. I completed the survey, then had several online conversations regarding the survey itself. Other therapist who commented agreed with my evaluation below.
The survey was designed (as surveys often are) with assumptions and omissions that channeled the outcome in a certain direction. Most of the possible answers to questions were not an answer of my choice. I did fill in the blank "other" but I doubt these answers carried any weight for obvious reasons.
I checked the NCB site and cannot find the survey results posted, although the "re certification survey" results are available (106 responses)
I think the NCB should publish the survey results or tell us why they will not.
I am going to the NCB site posted above "NCB is answering questions about the advanced cert" and request they publish the survey results.
I also suggest EVERYONE should do this.
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Hi Angela,
I can't find the post. Could you please give me the url?
Also where is the link on the NCBTMB site?
Angela Palmier said:Hi Bert- oddly enough they are posted under the section regarding posting comments. Gotta go-movie is about to start!
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Permalink Reply by Laura Allen on
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Here is the link to the Step-by-Step document.
Bert Davich said:Hi Angela,
I can't find the post. Could you please give me the url?
Also where is the link on the NCBTMB site?
Angela Palmier said:Hi Bert- oddly enough they are posted under the section regarding posting comments. Gotta go-movie is about to start!
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