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Skeptical about Energy Work
Folks -
There previously was a discussion on this site in which a skeptical attitude toward energy work was being discussed, but that discussion eventually got deleted. The reason seems to be that it was judged not to belong in the location where it was taking place, which was inside one of the energy work groups.
I was the person who introduced the skepticism to the discussion. Some people did not appreciate that, but others did. Given how many participants there are on this site, and how many threads and groups are dedicated to discussing energy work with no skepticism, I thought maybe it was time to open a discussion where such skepticism is invited and welcomed.
I look forward to seeing how this discussion might develop. Is there interest?
-CM
There previously was a discussion on this site in which a skeptical attitude toward energy work was being discussed, but that discussion eventually got deleted. The reason seems to be that it was judged not to belong in the location where it was taking place, which was inside one of the energy work groups.
I was the person who introduced the skepticism to the discussion. Some people did not appreciate that, but others did. Given how many participants there are on this site, and how many threads and groups are dedicated to discussing energy work with no skepticism, I thought maybe it was time to open a discussion where such skepticism is invited and welcomed.
I look forward to seeing how this discussion might develop. Is there interest?
-CM
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Julianna Holden Mohler on
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Christopher A. Moyer said:Julianna Holden Mohler said:I'd like to suggest that the people who are benefiting from energy work are the ones not believing nor disbelieving. They're not waiting until scientific evidence catches up with what some of us already know and utilize. Thank goodness. It could remain theoretical in concept indefinitely.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But this discussion is about a skeptical perspective. It is easy for us to assert that we 'know' something, but without evidence, that assertion does not mean much.
It may not mean much to you, however, it means a lot to those who've been there and know, without needing an "expert" to tell them what they know.
I don't put off living until science gives me the green light. What a horrible mess this world would be if we lived like that! =)
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I'm glad energy medicine is doing their own evidence based studies and work. It's greatly needed. But most especially they don't wait for those skeptics in the "scientific" community to condone nor approve of their work. Without them, I wouldn't have homeopathics nor Bach flower essences nor aromatherapy.
My own (theoretical physicist) husband says he has no problem with the concept of the original homeopathy (because vaccinations work), but the "potentializing" or whatever he called it, he thinks is pure BS. Even though he can't refute the evidence in front of his eyes for its effects on me, and yes I've even used it on him and he notices results, he's still about as reserved as they come. Again, he says science just can't explain it - yet. He just doesn't buy the homeopath's description and studies. So he's open to the fact that it can and does work, but he's squarely in the realm of, "it's a mystery."
We need scientific minds. We need intuitive minds. The two can meet but often don't. Often a scientist's mind is so far in theory and in the clouds, they miss the common sense of what's right under their nose. Can't see the forest for the trees come to mind - or in their case, they often see a big picture but neglect the immediate necessity. Again, I think my husband and I balance and enhance each other. But if either of us dominated, it could be potential chaos. That's just the world operates.
Life is to be lived, not to be held at a distance until we figure out how to live.
If you haven't seen the movie, "Beautiful Dreamers," it's worth a watch. It's not an expensive movie, not mainstream, but it's about Walt Whitman's work with a Canadian doctor. I really loved the movie. It addresses some of this "common sense" and humane approach I've been discussing. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/beautiful_dreamers/
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Permalink Reply by Christopher A. Moyer on
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It may not mean much to you,
True.
however, it means a lot to those who've been there and know,
But that's not really knowing. That's deluding oneself into thinking one knows.
without needing an "expert" to tell them what they know.
Expertise has nothing to do with it. All that counts is evidence.
I don't put off living until science gives me the green light. What a horrible mess this world would be if we lived like that! =)
Again, you are entitled to your opinion.
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I'm glad energy medicine is doing their own evidence based studies and work. It's greatly needed.
Almost no one is doing real research on energy medicine. Frankly, the people who know how to do research do not waste their time. It's as simple as that.
As for why you think it's needed - why do you think that? You've already stated your anti-scientific viewpoint. If science supports your viewpoint, you're all for it - but when it goes against your viewpoint, then you're against it. Unfortunately, science doesn't work like that.
But most especially they don't wait for those skeptics in the "scientific" community to condone nor approve of their work. Without them, I wouldn't have homeopathics nor Bach flower essences nor aromatherapy.
True enough. But what does it matter? You already know what works.
My own (theoretical physicist) husband says he has no problem with the concept of the original homeopathy (because vaccinations work),
You deride relying on "experts" but you keep reminding us that your husband is a theoretical physicist. So what? He probably knows his branch of physics very well, but he doesn't know very much about medicine if he thinks homeopathy makes sense.
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Permalink Reply by Robin Byler Thomas on
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Hi Julianna,
I agree we need both science and intuition in the world and in our work.
Do you consider homeopathy and aromatherapy energy work?
Looking forward to finding Beautiful Dreamers.
Julianna Holden Mohler said:I'm glad energy medicine is doing their own evidence based studies and work. It's greatly needed. But most especially they don't wait for those skeptics in the "scientific" community to condone nor approve of their work. Without them, I wouldn't have homeopathics nor Bach flower essences nor aromatherapy.
My own (theoretical physicist) husband says he has no problem with the concept of the original homeopathy (because vaccinations work), but the "potentializing" or whatever he called it, he thinks is pure BS. Even though he can't refute the evidence in front of his eyes for its effects on me, and yes I've even used it on him and he notices results, he's still about as reserved as they come. Again, he says science just can't explain it - yet. He just doesn't buy the homeopath's description and studies. So he's open to the fact that it can and does work, but he's squarely in the realm of, "it's a mystery."
We need scientific minds. We need intuitive minds. The two can meet but often don't. Often a scientist's mind is so far in theory and in the clouds, they miss the common sense of what's right under their nose. Can't see the forest for the trees come to mind - or in their case, they often see a big picture but neglect the immediate necessity. Again, I think my husband and I balance and enhance each other. But if either of us dominated, it could be potential chaos. That's just the world operates.
Life is to be lived, not to be held at a distance until we figure out how to live.
If you haven't seen the movie, "Beautiful Dreamers," it's worth a watch. It's not an expensive movie, not mainstream, but it's about Walt Whitman's work with a Canadian doctor. I really loved the movie. It addresses some of this "common sense" and humane approach I've been discussing. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/beautiful_dreamers/
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People heal from most of the injuries and illnesses that will ever happen to them.
Christopher,
Many people don't heal from their injuries; chronic pain clients, for example, with RSD.
I'd like to believe in vital force and admit to not knowing enough about it; I can't wait to research it in whole systems research.
Question: Do you understand vital force to be supplied by a separate entity?
Christopher A. Moyer said:I recently asked what it means to say we are "energetic beings". I can think of at least three ways this could be interpreted.
1. Humans, just like all living things, are metabolic systems. Life is maintained by (we might even say life *is*) the process of capturing energy from our environment, in the form of food, and using it to sustain our bodies.
2. 'Energy' is really just a stand-in for, or another way to refer to, psychological processes such as social contagion, communication of emotion, the placebo effect, and others. How we feel about ourselves, our lives, and our patients is likely to have an effect on our patients, and to interact with the (other) treatments we are conducting for their benefit.
3. Humans, and perhaps other living things, have some kind of vital force; the concept of chi or ki would be an example of this. Attuned therapists can alter, channel, or direct their own vital force and/or influence the vital force of another person. (This viewpoint would be an example of dualism, in contrast to the predominant modern scientific view of
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Do these three categories cover the topic well?
To which do you yourself subscribe? I suspect everyone (apart from a couple of charlatans who claim not to eat, and the people who believe them) agree with #1. Number 2 seems to me to be a fallback position some energy work proponents use when they are at a loss to give evidence of number 3, which would appear to be the basis of energy work practices in theory.
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Permalink Reply by Vlad on
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Robin brought up a good point there and in a previous post - there's too much being clumped together as "energy work".
I don't consider any modality that is not shown to have a high level of evidence as being "energy work", so this is confusing.
I think there should be a clear understanding of what is being referred to as energy work. The book "hands of light" was brought up a while back, the topic of which I consider energy work.
I don't know if anyone else is getting confused, but I'm just throwing it out there......
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Well if you consider TCM and Homeopathy to be energy work it is currently being researched at the University of Arizona; by a highly qualified team of experts in their own fields whom I have the pleasure of learning from and working with (on another project).
Christopher A. Moyer said:I'm glad energy medicine is doing their own evidence based studies and work. It's greatly needed.
Almost no one is doing real research on energy medicine. Frankly, the people who know how to do research do not waste their time. It's as simple as that.
As for why you think it's needed - why do you think that? You've already stated your anti-scientific viewpoint. If science supports your viewpoint, you're all for it - but when it goes against your viewpoint, then you're against it. Unfortunately, science doesn't work like that.
But most especially they don't wait for those skeptics in the "scientific" community to condone nor approve of their work. Without them, I wouldn't have homeopathics nor Bach flower essences nor aromatherapy.
True enough. But what does it matter? You already know what works.
My own (theoretical physicist) husband says he has no problem with the concept of the original homeopathy (because vaccinations work),
You deride relying on "experts" but you keep reminding us that your husband is a theoretical physicist. So what? He probably knows his branch of physics very well, but he doesn't know very much about medicine if he thinks homeopathy makes sense.
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Terry - I think your idea of bringing her on as a guest would be interesting.
She knew Einstein? I've got a picture of Einstein on my desk here. He's on my "pint list" of people (from history and present day) that I'd like (or would have liked) to have a pint and a chin wag with. I just think it's really cool that you've met someone that knew him. Very, very cool.
Emitting heat is different from the type of energy that people are referring to though, right? Was she referring to auras when she said "they've photographed it"? Just wondering......
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Permalink Reply by Serge Rivest on
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Obviously there is energy and we can control it this way:
- Mechanical energy. (Pressure, traction, etc)
- Thermal energy. (Heat)
- Chemical energy. (Change in chemical reactions when mechanical stimulation moves the tissues)
That's it. Basic high school stuff.
Though there is this to consider: the power of suggestion. Using whatever model (realistic or not), if you can present to a person a nice scenario that makes them feel happy and give them hope their mind (the software) will reduce overall anxiety and this will help recovery. Ex:
- (Dr. Bob giving placebos): Take two of those per day for two weeks and that will get rid of that cold you have.
- (Esoteric MT): I have balanced your chakras and now you are in tune with the universe. Every movement you do will now be easier and the pain will slowly fade away as the planets align this month.
But this will only work if the person wants to believe in whatever you tell them. This is the difference between b******* and working with facts: If the person doesn't believe in the facts, it doesn't matter, they will get results.
I think 'energy work' stops massage from getting its well deserved place in healthcare industry. Those who practice this kind of work might want to do a course on critical thinking.
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Christopher,
Many people don't heal from their injuries; chronic pain clients, for example, with RSD.
You're right, of course. There are plenty of chronic conditions that do not go away. Still, what I was attempting to say is also true - most of the injuries, infections, and conditions we experience run their course and are eliminated by our body's natural healing processes. And, even in the case of chronic conditions, we could accurately say that the body tends to manage them in a way that keeps us alive.
The point being - in most cases, a person gets better with or without treatment. We have to keep that in mind when studying treatments.
What is RSD?
I'd like to believe in vital force and admit to not knowing enough about it; I can't wait to research it in whole systems research.
Question: Do you understand vital force to be supplied by a separate entity?
My scientific opinion is that there is no vital force.
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Terry -
That is definitely cool that your client was acquainted with Einstein.
At the same time, that doesn't give her any special knowledge or authority on the present topic. She's certainly correct that we give off energy in the form of heat, but that's not what energy work proponents are talking about when they are talking about 'energy.'
Her assertion that "of course we are energy beings" illustrates the point I've been trying to make - that is a very imprecise statement. What does it mean? Without specifying what it means, we really can't discuss it meaningfully. I could just as accurately assert that my Honda is an energy being. It uses energy and gives off energy - those are absolutely true statements.
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