Critical thinking in Vancouver - massage and bodywork professionals2024-03-28T11:39:55Zhttps://massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/critical-thinking-in-vancouver?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A86379&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noJenny - Thank you for your re…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2010-06-16:2887274:Comment:863792010-06-16T14:49:57.128ZChristopher A. Moyerhttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/ChristopherAMoyer
Jenny - Thank you for your response. It was very kind of you to say that my statements were well put after I had been very critical of your previous post.<br />
<br />
To respond to your question about taking credit - I have encountered that claim by 'energy workers' before, i.e., that they don't actually cause the healing but merely enable the body to enact its own healing processes. I do not see any clear distinction between whether a treatment of any kind should 'get the credit' for healing, or whether…
Jenny - Thank you for your response. It was very kind of you to say that my statements were well put after I had been very critical of your previous post.<br />
<br />
To respond to your question about taking credit - I have encountered that claim by 'energy workers' before, i.e., that they don't actually cause the healing but merely enable the body to enact its own healing processes. I do not see any clear distinction between whether a treatment of any kind should 'get the credit' for healing, or whether it 'permits the body to heal.'<br />
<br />
We could just as easily say that the cardiothoracic surgeon who reconstructed my Mom's aorta last year didn't heal her - he merely created the conditions that will permit her to go on living.<br />
<br />
A treatment either works - the person gets benefit from it - or it doesn't - the person doesn't get benefit from it or even gets worse from it.<br />
<br />
Thanks again for your gracious reply. I appreciate it. However, I beleive in my prac…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2010-06-16:2887274:Comment:863372010-06-16T12:02:30.733ZJenny Lancey-Flammiahttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/JennyLanceyFlammia
However, I beleive in my practice, dont think I am wrong. I beleive that some people do play on innocent people. At the smae time there are people who do not. In all races, fields of work, etc there is truth and there are lies.
However, I beleive in my practice, dont think I am wrong. I beleive that some people do play on innocent people. At the smae time there are people who do not. In all races, fields of work, etc there is truth and there are lies. I did reply to this yet i don…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2010-06-16:2887274:Comment:863362010-06-16T11:51:18.949ZJenny Lancey-Flammiahttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/JennyLanceyFlammia
I did reply to this yet i dont see my responce?? But I simply stated the statments u quoted were well put and better than what i tossed out. Thank you.<br />
However ho is it nonsence that i dont take credit. I dont.
I did reply to this yet i dont see my responce?? But I simply stated the statments u quoted were well put and better than what i tossed out. Thank you.<br />
However ho is it nonsence that i dont take credit. I dont. Im thinking that this is a co…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2010-06-15:2887274:Comment:861032010-06-15T17:55:09.967ZChristopher A. Moyerhttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/ChristopherAMoyer
<i>Im thinking that this is a complete waist. You are misunderstanding everything. You know not about my work only the misguided readings you have found.</i><br />
<br />
You know how EB insisted that we skeptics are angry? Well, this kind of response, while it doesn't make me furious, does irritate.<br />
<br />
Brian offered numerous clearly stated reasons why his position on this so-called energy is correct, to which the stock "energy worker" position is 'you just don't get it, you don't know what I do.' In…
<i>Im thinking that this is a complete waist. You are misunderstanding everything. You know not about my work only the misguided readings you have found.</i><br />
<br />
You know how EB insisted that we skeptics are angry? Well, this kind of response, while it doesn't make me furious, does irritate.<br />
<br />
Brian offered numerous clearly stated reasons why his position on this so-called energy is correct, to which the stock "energy worker" position is 'you just don't get it, you don't know what I do.' In essence, he provided you with a challenge - here are some things that we know contradict the tenets of energy work; can you refute any of them? And to this, you said "you're wrong, cause you don't get it."<br />
<br />
I think we all know you're not going to reply by saying 'you know what, you're right, I'm going to alter my career so that it is no longer grounded in superstitious nonsense,' though it would be great if you had. But at least I could respect your reply if it had said:<br />
<br />
-maybe I'm wrong, but I like what I'm doing so I'm going to carry on; or<br />
-I don't know much about the science and philosophy you are presenting, so I can't really respond; or<br />
-I can't support my position scientifically, but I think there might be something to dualism; it makes intuitive sense to me.<br />
<br />
None of those responses, or the positions they represent, would be logically defensible, but at least they would be honest. They would be examples of good faith.<br />
<br />
But to say 'you're wrong, you don't get it, and I'm not going to even attempt to substantiate what I'm saying because I'm writing from my pone' (sic) is lame. And if that's being harsh, so be it.<br />
<br />
<i>I would like to add I do not take credit for any healings that happen.</i><br />
<br />
This is nonsense. We could say this about any intervention whatsoever, including surgery. Every health intervention relies upon the body's potential to return to optimal functioning. I would like to add I do not…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2010-06-15:2887274:Comment:860832010-06-15T17:33:07.283ZJenny Lancey-Flammiahttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/JennyLanceyFlammia
I would like to add I do not take credit for any healings that happen. True energy works dont they know they helped but dont take credit it is the person who came for help and the life force around them resppnsible for thier healing. Just as a peron who is to take a pill to get better, if they dont they dont heal and so on.
I would like to add I do not take credit for any healings that happen. True energy works dont they know they helped but dont take credit it is the person who came for help and the life force around them resppnsible for thier healing. Just as a peron who is to take a pill to get better, if they dont they dont heal and so on. Im thinking that this is a co…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2010-06-15:2887274:Comment:860812010-06-15T17:15:43.593ZJenny Lancey-Flammiahttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/JennyLanceyFlammia
Im thinking that this is a complete waist. You are misunderstanding everything. You know not about my work only the misguided readings you have found. i teach energy therapy and yes there are ppl who misrepresent energy therapys, however not all do. I could show and tell you what studys I have and so on but like I said eairlier I am replying with my pone and it would b impossiable.<br />
Also, like I said I get you dont beleive in the same things as I. However there is no need for name calling.<br />
May…
Im thinking that this is a complete waist. You are misunderstanding everything. You know not about my work only the misguided readings you have found. i teach energy therapy and yes there are ppl who misrepresent energy therapys, however not all do. I could show and tell you what studys I have and so on but like I said eairlier I am replying with my pone and it would b impossiable.<br />
Also, like I said I get you dont beleive in the same things as I. However there is no need for name calling.<br />
May you have a blessed day. Barbra Brennan is amazing and…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2010-06-15:2887274:Comment:860792010-06-15T16:51:24.600ZBrian Lynchehaunhttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/BrianLynchehaun
<blockquote>Barbra Brennan is amazing and has amazing studies that are in her books feel free to look them up.</blockquote>
<br />
I'll check that out.<br />
<br />
<blockquote>Further more those who say they were hurt by energy work, were mistaken they didnt utilize it properly and they caused there damage.</blockquote>
<br />
This is one of the biggest problems with everything in the 'alternate nonsense' category: if it works, the practitioner takes the credit; if it fails, the <b>patient</b> takes the blame. This…
<blockquote>Barbra Brennan is amazing and has amazing studies that are in her books feel free to look them up.</blockquote>
<br />
I'll check that out.<br />
<br />
<blockquote>Further more those who say they were hurt by energy work, were mistaken they didnt utilize it properly and they caused there damage.</blockquote>
<br />
This is one of the biggest problems with everything in the 'alternate nonsense' category: if it works, the practitioner takes the credit; if it fails, the <b>patient</b> takes the blame. This is reprehensible.<br />
<br />
Furthermore, it's irresponsible: part of any skilled profession is the acknowledgement that they are not infallible, that they practitioner makes mistakes, and that there is room for improvement. This is not typically the case in the alt-nonsense stuff.<br />
<br />
<blockquote>Reiki is unervisal life energy. The energy within and around you.</blockquote>
<br />
I realise that you disagree, but this just isn't true. It's just made-up nonsense.<br />
<br />
Just go with me for a moment...<br />
<br />
Let's say that there was a 'force' or 'energy' that was doing all this. How do you know? What senses are noticing it?<br />
<br />
All of the five senses pick up physical things, movement in the air, or pressure on the skin. These all involve physical changes in a room or area, and machines can be created that replicate these feelings to a <b>greater</b> level of sensitivity that humans have. Furthermore, machines can be created to see energy that lies outside the usual range of human sense (i.e. ultraviolet light, radio waves, etc).<br />
<br />
So let's say that you want to posit an additional sense. That is connected to a 'spirit' that we all have, and that this new 'energy' is completely non-physical, and thus incapable of being detected by physical things (such as machines).<br />
<br />
Fair enough. Let's say that I accept all that for the moment (for the sake of the argument).<br />
<br />
How does the spirit tell the body what's going on?<br />
<br />
At some point the spirit (non-physical) <b>must</b> interact with the body (physical), in order to pass the information to the body. <b>That</b> interaction can be detected by a machine.<br />
<br />
Let's say that no, the spirit doesn't pass any information to the body: how, then, do we act on the information that the spirit has? It <b>necessarily</b> has to communicate with the body to tell it to 'move hands left a bit'. Again, that interaction right there is a non-physical with physical interaction.<br />
<br />
<br />
If you claim that this interaction never takes place, then your body can <b>never</b> act on what your spirit knows.<br />
<br />
If you claim that this interaction does take place, then this interaction can be detected by a machine. Given the level of scrutiny many people involved in the sciences have placed on this area, some explanation needs to be provided for why they have failed to find anything.<br />
<br />
Incidentally, this whole 'dualist' idea isn't new. Rene Descartes put this idea forward in the 1600s (see his Meditations). It was shot down as incoherent shortly thereafter.<br />
<br />
<blockquote>Energy workers are not the healers they are like helpers.</blockquote>
<br />
If a person is asking for money for a service (even if it's merely a 'donation'), they had better well-define what <b>exactly</b> they are providing. It's the basic 'due diligence' of any profession.<br />
<br />
<br />
I realise this was aimed at Chris, but how-and-ever...<br />
<br />
<blockquote>"placebo affect"</blockquote>
<br />
The placebo effect is well known in medicine, if not well understood.<br />
<br />
Do you understand that the placebo effect is present in <b>every</b> medical treatment? If I charge people $100 to yell at them and hit them with a stick, some of them <b>will</b> get better. I'm quite serious.<br />
<br />
So if the placebo effect is present in everything (including actual, real medicine), then given the choice between a treatment that provides the placebo effect <b>plus</b> something else, or something that is <b>merely</b> the placebo effect, the rational money is on the first one. No?<br />
<br />
<blockquote>psychosomatic</blockquote>
<br />
I'd offer that this particular word gets abused far too often. Ulcers used to be considered 'psychosomatic' until fairly recently. Stress definitely does diminish the efficacy of the immune system, and this can lead it to be compromised and illness to occur. That said, you can't merely 'will' or 'wish' yourself to be always healthy. No matter how much positive thinking you have, if you are exposed to HIV or Malaria, you're in trouble.<br />
<br />
In terms of how your environment affects your mental state (which, in turn, can affect your health), there's an area called Health Psychology which focuses on what they call the 'Psychosocial model'.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosocial" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosocial</a> (the stuff in italics at the top is <b>not</b> what I'm referring to).<br />
<br />
There's a link on that page (<a href="http://www.psychosocialnetwork.net/" target="_blank">http://www.psychosocialnetwork.net/</a>) which I haven't read through, but scanned briefly, and it seems to have some pretty good information.<br />
<br />
<br />
<blockquote>I could agree that the well-intentioned practice of "energy medicine" could be an example of incompetence or malpractice, but fraud would require active deception.</blockquote>
<br />
Fair enough so. I'll admit that my use of 'fraud' here is contentious. However, I feel that neither 'incompetence' nor 'malpractice' sufficiently describe the situation. (I don't feel that 'active' deception is necessary for fraud. I would contend that if the thing you are doing <b>cannot</b> work, and you haven't done the due diligence (for whatever reason) prior to your selling of the service (and some basic due diligence would quickly reveal that the service cannot work), then you are committing fraud)<br />
<br />
Someone is incompetent when they attempt to do something (that can work), but they lack the skill to succeed.<br />
<br />
Someone commits malpractice when they misapply medicine, or break the ethical rules surrounding it.<br />
<br />
<br />
Neither of these apply to energy work, or acupuncture, or that sort of thing, as they have zero possibility of working. Incompetence may apply, but it's a higher order of incompetence.<br />
<br />
For the sake of the discussion, however, I'll drop the use of 'fraud'.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Here's a thought experiment (it may strike you as a little weird, but... it's what we do in Philosophy ;) ):<br />
<br />
Imagine a street in a city. There’s a guy there, with a table, and some cards. He’s running a Three Card Monte. He’s saying that anyone can win $20 if they guess the card right. In fact (he claims), 1 in 3 people do win. I mean, they’d have to, right? But as you watch, no-one wins. 10 people play. 20 people. No-one wins.<br />
<br />
So you ask the guy “so… I just watched 50 people play today, and not a single one won. How can this be? I mean… the game works, right?”. The guy looks shocked. “Look, buddy, I don’t guarantee that any individual person will benefit. I can’t promise specific results, but playing this game can complement any other form of income someone is currently pursuing”. Upon being pressed “sure, maybe everyone today didn’t win. But yesterday, yesterday many people won. Come back tomorrow, you’ll see.”<br />
<br />
If pressed further, he might say something like “I know you think this is a scam. But I don’t ask that others believe in it, just that they respect the fact that I do.”<br />
<br />
Do we accept this argument? Absolutely not.<br />
<br />
Let’s pretend for a moment that the guy running the game is unaware that he’s palming the card. He is completely oblivious to the fact that he removes the red card and replaces it with a black card everytime. So he’s not intentionally scamming people.<br />
<br />
Do we accept his argument now? It is, after all, a genuinely held belief that the people can win.<br />
<br />
No, we don’t. It’s still an empirical fact that he’s scamming people, whether or not the person running the game knows that it’s a scam or not. We might find them less morally responsible because they don’t know, but that doesn’t mean that the scam isn’t occuring. Hi Lara. Yes, the placebo eff…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2010-06-15:2887274:Comment:860512010-06-15T15:46:42.520ZChristopher A. Moyerhttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/ChristopherAMoyer
Hi Lara. Yes, the placebo effect, and psychosomatic illnesses, undoubtedly exist. They are well-documented phenomena. And yes, the notion of psychosomatic wellness, though I haven't encountered that term before, is logical. But none of those things would justify the practice of "energy medicine," unless you are suggesting that it is really "placebo medicine," in which case that is what it should be called.<br />
<br />
You ask if intention has an effect. Yes, of course it can, but we must specify what we…
Hi Lara. Yes, the placebo effect, and psychosomatic illnesses, undoubtedly exist. They are well-documented phenomena. And yes, the notion of psychosomatic wellness, though I haven't encountered that term before, is logical. But none of those things would justify the practice of "energy medicine," unless you are suggesting that it is really "placebo medicine," in which case that is what it should be called.<br />
<br />
You ask if intention has an effect. Yes, of course it can, but we must specify what we mean, and specify the way in which intention gets communicated, when we say that. If, for example, you are my massage therapist, and you do a good job in a particular session with focusing your attentional resources on the work you are doing, I will probably get greater benefit from that session than one in which you are mentally distracted or wishing you were somewhere else, doing something else. Why would this be so? Because your intention, a mental process, likely has an effect on the pace, rhythm, and pressure of your strokes, on your posture and body language, and on your tone of voice. All of these might be relatively subtle differences, but human beings are surprisingly good at noticing such differences and reacting to them, often without even being directly aware of it.<br />
<br />
Note that, in principle, any of all of those things could be measured. In practice that could be very difficult to do, but there is nothing metaphysical in the example that I gave. The mental state and focus of the therapist, which we are calling intention, will have real world effects that the recipient can perceive through ordinary sensory channels. This is quite extraordinary, actually, but it isn't supernatural.<br />
<br />
What doesn't happen is for intention to act all by itself by supernatural means. If I have no way of sensing your intention, I have no way of being affected by it. Hey Christopher, a real quest…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2010-06-15:2887274:Comment:860482010-06-15T15:29:02.519ZABMPhttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/Lara
Hey Christopher, a real question (just for the record, not bait ;->): Do you think there is such a thing as "placebo affect" and "psychosomatic illness"? This genre would also have to include "psychomsomatic wellness." Do you think that intention has an effect? I'm not suggesting homeopathy or hot stone massage for a gun shot wound, but I am considering Larry Dossey's work:…
Hey Christopher, a real question (just for the record, not bait ;->): Do you think there is such a thing as "placebo affect" and "psychosomatic illness"? This genre would also have to include "psychomsomatic wellness." Do you think that intention has an effect? I'm not suggesting homeopathy or hot stone massage for a gun shot wound, but I am considering Larry Dossey's work: <a href="http://www.dosseydossey.com/larry/default.html" target="_blank">http://www.dosseydossey.com/larry/default.html</a>.<br />
<br />
Once again, thanks for a lively discussion! But I have to admit, this 'an…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2010-06-15:2887274:Comment:860392010-06-15T15:10:26.748ZChristopher A. Moyerhttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/ChristopherAMoyer
<i>But I have to admit, this 'angry' thing is a very handy out: make it clear that you won't discuss anything with anyone who is 'angry', and then simply declare those who disagree with you as 'angry', even if you don't have any evidence to the contrary.<br />
<br />
It's a neat way to control the conversation, and to attempt to seize the "look at me! I'm the reasonable one!" ground.</i><br />
<br />
Exactly. Well said.<br />
<br />
There is something else that you said that I disagree with. I disagree that all "energy workers"…
<i>But I have to admit, this 'angry' thing is a very handy out: make it clear that you won't discuss anything with anyone who is 'angry', and then simply declare those who disagree with you as 'angry', even if you don't have any evidence to the contrary.<br />
<br />
It's a neat way to control the conversation, and to attempt to seize the "look at me! I'm the reasonable one!" ground.</i><br />
<br />
Exactly. Well said.<br />
<br />
There is something else that you said that I disagree with. I disagree that all "energy workers" are committing fraud. The vast majority of these folks genuinely believe in what they are doing and that, in my mind, distinguishes it from fraud. I could agree that the well-intentioned practice of "energy medicine" could be an example of incompetence or malpractice, but fraud would require active deception.<br />
<br />
I see fraud as a much more severe condemnation than incompetence or malpractice.