Dry needling, is it in our scope of practice? - massage and bodywork professionals2024-03-29T11:40:32Zhttps://massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/dry-needling-is-it-in-our-scope-of-practice?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A322710&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHere is a Dermatome chart. Sh…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2016-08-30:2887274:Comment:3601802016-08-30T20:14:33.312ZGordon J. Wallishttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GordonJWallis
Here is a Dermatome chart. Shows skin Inervation by the various spinal segments.
Here is a Dermatome chart. Shows skin Inervation by the various spinal segments. Here are the spinal segments…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2016-08-30:2887274:Comment:3601782016-08-30T20:12:42.020ZGordon J. Wallishttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GordonJWallis
Here are the spinal segments that inervate the different organs.
Here are the spinal segments that inervate the different organs. Here is an internal organ pai…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2016-08-30:2887274:Comment:3601762016-08-30T20:10:51.062ZGordon J. Wallishttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GordonJWallis
Here is an internal organ pain referal chart.<br />
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<cite>Gordon J. Wallis said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/dry-needling-is-it-in-our-scope-of-practice?page=3&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A360450&x=1#2887274Comment360445"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">There might be some overlap, but they would be different. Maybe not so much between Dermatomes and myotome, but different.. In the attachment below is a sclarotome pain pattern chart. All…</div>
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Here is an internal organ pain referal chart.<br />
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<cite>Gordon J. Wallis said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/dry-needling-is-it-in-our-scope-of-practice?page=3&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A360450&x=1#2887274Comment360445"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">There might be some overlap, but they would be different. Maybe not so much between Dermatomes and myotome, but different.. In the attachment below is a sclarotome pain pattern chart. All I'm saying as an example is... If there is a rash on the skin in only one specific area. And let's say it's covered by the C5 Dermatome. It could also( doesn't mean it has too)indicate a disease of the bones of the C5 Sclarotome. And what I'm guessing about acupuncture is that sticking a needle in a specific spot in the skin on a meridian may have wide ranging effects on internal organs, bone and muscle. And that may explain how acupuncture works. Also , internal organ pain is also projected to the bodies surface. But as a massage therapist I'm only interested in eliminating muscle pain in the form of trigger points. But a dysfunction in a spinal segment because of internal organ stress could be the reason for an abdominal trigger point. I'm just talking in here. Don't expect to be able to explain how acupuncture works on a western scientific level by reading what I'm saying. I certainly don't know. But meridians being muscle chains seems to ME, the connecting mechanism of the entire body mind. Instead of some mysterious chi energy flow.</div>
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</blockquote> I've written over 70 pages in…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2016-08-28:2887274:Comment:3604502016-08-28T18:18:15.889ZGordon J. Wallishttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GordonJWallis
<br></br>I've written over 70 pages in here. A typical experience. It's kind of like a blog. I try to back up what I say, but ultimately it's just what I think. And I may very well be incorrect about what I say. But I think our profession has been, for whatever reason, led down the wrong path. As in the paragraphs above. I think that soft tissue is the neglected aspect of the health care system which on pain alone is a 630 billion a year industry. With some tweaking of our education system we…
<br/>I've written over 70 pages in here. A typical experience. It's kind of like a blog. I try to back up what I say, but ultimately it's just what I think. And I may very well be incorrect about what I say. But I think our profession has been, for whatever reason, led down the wrong path. As in the paragraphs above. I think that soft tissue is the neglected aspect of the health care system which on pain alone is a 630 billion a year industry. With some tweaking of our education system we should be major players in that industry. Instead of working for a little over minimum wage.
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<cite>Mitsuko Ito said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/dry-needling-is-it-in-our-scope-of-practice?x=1&id=2887274%3ATopic%3A322391&page=2#2887274Comment360444"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Gordon, do you have a blog or website?<br/>I'd love to follow you.</p>
<p><span>You mentioned "Each spinal segment has nerve roots that controle portions of bone(sclerotome),muscles(myotomes), skin(dermatomes),and internal organs(enterotomes). "</span></p>
<p><span>Do you have any good links/images to those?<br/>I've seen a dermatome graphic somewhere, and I just now looked up sclerotome on google, but didn't find it to give me what I am thinking I"m looking for. Are they basically affecting the same area ? For example, You mentioned in you rpost above that the nerve root that intervates the big toe (dermatome) is mostly L5. Would that be the same for bones, muscles as well?<br/>(Internal Organs probably have different patterns.)</span></p>
<p>I really like how we are starting to find the connection and correlation between what western science says and TCM has presented for a long time.</p>
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</blockquote> There might be some overlap,…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2016-08-28:2887274:Comment:3604452016-08-28T14:40:39.345ZGordon J. Wallishttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GordonJWallis
There might be some overlap, but they would be different. Maybe not so much between Dermatomes and myotome, but different.. In the attachment below is a sclarotome pain pattern chart. All I'm saying as an example is... If there is a rash on the skin in only one specific area. And let's say it's covered by the C5 Dermatome. It could also( doesn't mean it has too)indicate a disease of the bones of the C5 Sclarotome. And what I'm guessing about acupuncture is that sticking a needle in a specific…
There might be some overlap, but they would be different. Maybe not so much between Dermatomes and myotome, but different.. In the attachment below is a sclarotome pain pattern chart. All I'm saying as an example is... If there is a rash on the skin in only one specific area. And let's say it's covered by the C5 Dermatome. It could also( doesn't mean it has too)indicate a disease of the bones of the C5 Sclarotome. And what I'm guessing about acupuncture is that sticking a needle in a specific spot in the skin on a meridian may have wide ranging effects on internal organs, bone and muscle. And that may explain how acupuncture works. Also , internal organ pain is also projected to the bodies surface. But as a massage therapist I'm only interested in eliminating muscle pain in the form of trigger points. But a dysfunction in a spinal segment because of internal organ stress could be the reason for an abdominal trigger point. I'm just talking in here. Don't expect to be able to explain how acupuncture works on a western scientific level by reading what I'm saying. I certainly don't know. But meridians being muscle chains seems to ME, the connecting mechanism of the entire body mind. Instead of some mysterious chi energy flow. Gordon, do you have a blog or…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2016-08-28:2887274:Comment:3604442016-08-28T12:31:08.211ZMitsuko Itohttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/tmj
<p>Gordon, do you have a blog or website?<br></br>I'd love to follow you.</p>
<p><span>You mentioned "Each spinal segment has nerve roots that controle portions of bone(sclerotome),muscles(myotomes), skin(dermatomes),and internal organs(enterotomes). "</span></p>
<p><span>Do you have any good links/images to those?<br></br>I've seen a dermatome graphic somewhere, and I just now looked up sclerotome on google, but didn't find it to give me what I am thinking I"m looking for. Are they basically…</span></p>
<p>Gordon, do you have a blog or website?<br/>I'd love to follow you.</p>
<p><span>You mentioned "Each spinal segment has nerve roots that controle portions of bone(sclerotome),muscles(myotomes), skin(dermatomes),and internal organs(enterotomes). "</span></p>
<p><span>Do you have any good links/images to those?<br/>I've seen a dermatome graphic somewhere, and I just now looked up sclerotome on google, but didn't find it to give me what I am thinking I"m looking for. Are they basically affecting the same area ? For example, You mentioned in you rpost above that the nerve root that intervates the big toe (dermatome) is mostly L5. Would that be the same for bones, muscles as well?<br/>(Internal Organs probably have different patterns.)</span></p>
<p>I really like how we are starting to find the connection and correlation between what western science says and TCM has presented for a long time.</p> To me this is a meridian that…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2016-08-28:2887274:Comment:3604422016-08-28T09:05:06.316ZGordon J. Wallishttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GordonJWallis
To me this is a meridian that makes sense. It goes from the lateral ankle up over the head to the eyebrows. Where does the bladder go?
To me this is a meridian that makes sense. It goes from the lateral ankle up over the head to the eyebrows. Where does the bladder go? All this talk about meridians…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2016-08-28:2887274:Comment:3602372016-08-28T09:01:42.527ZGordon J. Wallishttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GordonJWallis
All this talk about meridians. People act like experts when you ask them what meridians are.. People know all about them, yet can't explain what they are. At least not in a real scientific way that makes sense(to me). They discribe them as a belief system instead. Like the acupuncturist that said they are too deep to touch? When they put needles in the body, they don't go very deep. Meridians are muscle chains. At least ten of them are. A muscle chain is a group of muscles that function as one.…
All this talk about meridians. People act like experts when you ask them what meridians are.. People know all about them, yet can't explain what they are. At least not in a real scientific way that makes sense(to me). They discribe them as a belief system instead. Like the acupuncturist that said they are too deep to touch? When they put needles in the body, they don't go very deep. Meridians are muscle chains. At least ten of them are. A muscle chain is a group of muscles that function as one. If you stimulate a muscle chain, another muscle chain relaxes. I guess if you want to call it energy flow you can(chi). Muscles attach to bones. They also attach to spinal segments. Each spinal segment has nerve roots that controle portions of bone(sclerotome),muscles(myotomes), skin(dermatomes),and internal organs(enterotomes). If there is an irritation or a stimulation in one of the tomes ,it can effect the other tomes. I had an example of that the other day. A new client came in with no pain complaints what so ever. Just wanting to relax. And she looked very healthy. However, before the massage started she told me that she had some kind of skin irritation on her left big toe. So I figured I would just avoid massaging that big toe. Didn't want to irritate any kind of skin injury and possibly hurt her. After I finished my back routeen, I moved down to her left foot. I noticed that the skin was dry and peeling on her big toe. I could tell that it was some kind of fungus infection(guessing). All the other toes were normal. No big deal, but then I started thinking about what I said in the above sentences. That was an irritation or dysfunction of the skin. The nerve root( Dermatome) that inervates the big toe is mostly L5. All during my back massage she never complained or flinched or indicated any pain at all. I asked her if her low back bothers her at all. She said lately she has detected low back discomfort if she is on her feet for a long time. I palpated her entire spine and found only one tender point on the lower lateral side of the spine right above the sacrum on the left side. To me that's not coincidence. Not a big deal in her case. But it points to these very real connections. I'm not claiming to be an expert on acupuncture. Not at all. I just don't think it operates on this mystical chi level as most think. And I think muscle chains might explain some of the seemingly magical and wide ranging effects of acupuncture. For some reason I can only post one attachment at a time. Just look at the following two attachments closely. Meridian/muscle chain connection. Meridians are very real to me that way. Sticking a needle or manipulating muscle anywhere on that chain, can possibly have wide ranging effects? Now I want to qualify myself here. I'm just telling you what I think.. Can't wait to read up and fin…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2016-08-16:2887274:Comment:3599022016-08-16T00:53:42.437ZMitsuko Itohttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/tmj
<p>Can't wait to read up and find out more of Gordon offers here :) Just re-discovered this site and am very excited!</p>
<p>Thanks much for your enthusiasm and explanation. Just a quick reply to share I'm looking forward to more learning and exchanges on this platform :)</p>
<p>Can't wait to read up and find out more of Gordon offers here :) Just re-discovered this site and am very excited!</p>
<p>Thanks much for your enthusiasm and explanation. Just a quick reply to share I'm looking forward to more learning and exchanges on this platform :)</p> First of all, as you know sin…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2016-08-16:2887274:Comment:3599012016-08-16T00:41:06.055ZGary W Addis, LMThttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GaryWAddis
<p>First of all, as you know since you are a caring, thinking massage therapist, there's an awful lot of BS in our profession. I unequivocally proclaim to be BS that anyone is "sucking" bad energy from a client's body. I am a science-based therapist. I am trained in Therapeutic Touch and in Reflexology; in my admittedly biased opinion, neither has a basis in human anatomy. Reflexology claims that there's a spot in the hands and feet in direct communication with each organ of the body. …</p>
<p>First of all, as you know since you are a caring, thinking massage therapist, there's an awful lot of BS in our profession. I unequivocally proclaim to be BS that anyone is "sucking" bad energy from a client's body. I am a science-based therapist. I am trained in Therapeutic Touch and in Reflexology; in my admittedly biased opinion, neither has a basis in human anatomy. Reflexology claims that there's a spot in the hands and feet in direct communication with each organ of the body. Quoting a poem Robert B. Paker's Spenser character often gave, Wouldn't it be pretty to think so. But the muscles of the feet communicate directly with the nervous system and receive instructions directly from the nervous system. Blood flows from the feet back and forth to the heart; another closed system. So, no, I don't believe in Reflexology or a therapist's ability to bid Universal Chi to do her bidding if she thinks good thoughts.</p>
<p>Regarding the other therapist's comment to you that meridians can't be affected with ischemic compression because they are "too deep." Well, the question I'd have for him is, then where are they, how does he know that his needles are affecting them. Look, skeletal muscles do lie in layers; the rotatores for instance are covered by a smorgasbord of thick muscles. But the compression affects all the layers from surface to the bone. True, standard belief taught in schools is that to get release in a deep muscle in a heavily muscled client can require a lot of the therapist's strength.</p>
<p>But rather than straining hell out of your thumbs and fingers, press in to the point the tissue itself reacts but no deeper. If there is a tp in there, the tissue itself will react even if the client lies snoring-- a slight quivering or spasm can be discerned unless you bore in like you're digging a well. Too hard a pressure, you can kill the sensitivity without much affecting a deep trigger point. When that surface muscle relaxes (scoots out of the way seemingly), the next layer will get the pressure, and in no time at all you'll settle onto the active TP. Wait-- I'm making this seem more complicated than it actually is. Even if the surface is covered with a quilt of fat, light pressure will penetrate to the muscle. Use supported thumbs, don't dig in with one lonesome thumb or fingertip.</p>
<p>I agree with you, I too need sensory contact my skin to theirs. Positioning an obese or bodybuilder client's body can make penetration to the pain much easier. For instance, pulling scapula aside or down or up will give access to the serratus and rhomboid attachments. A physiological fact that makes out work easier is that if there is a TP in all that tissue, the client will feel even a light touch on its surface-- you may need to dig in hard to elicit an ouch or hard twitch, but even a light stroke across a trigger pointed muscle, you'll feel the tissue react if you're playing attention and not trying to dig a tunnel to China. </p>
<p>When you feel the reaction, just maintain that level of penetration and with the other move to its primary antagonist and give a slight twist or tug-- now, every muscle has a few antagonists, so you may have to explore to find the one that is interacting with the trigger pointed muscle; with practice you'll feel a slight tension in the appropriate strand of antagonist muscle, then a slight manipulation of that tight strand, the TP will ... just vanish. </p>
<p>That technique is called RIRR (reciprocal inhibition reflex release). There's scads of other techniques utilizing the body's own built in reflexes. Watch Gordon's videos diligently: try to comprehend what relationship that spot on the knee has with the trigger point he located in the client's gluteus medius, and why touching THERE caused it to release; why a tp in lumbar spine went away when he lightly touched the cervical spine. It's magical. Not actually magical, there is a physiological connection between the TP and the particular spot he used to get the specific TP to release. </p>
<p>Confused you yet?</p>
<p>Mitsuko, it isn't magic, it isn't Universal Chi (although Gordon does utilize Meridian manipulations in one of his techniques). What it is in an intimate knowledge of myotomes and dermatomes and kineseology of the human body. Muscles move bones; in order to do that they must receive instructions from the CNS and an adequate supply of oxygen and nutrients through the blood, and good lymphatic drainage. TP therapy doesn't require the strength of a Russian Olympic lifter; you can get even better results using much less pressure. Our industry gurus are wrong about that. As Gordon says, MDs, DCs, PTs and 99.9% of massage therapists remain in the dark recesses of their closed minds.-- I bet you know a whole passel of LMTs who couldn't find a trigger point if it flashed neon and a siren went off when they got near one.</p>
<p>So, experiment. Watch the videos, and ask questions. Gordon is generous with his store of knowledge. I've known him six years or thereabouts, and what I've learned from him has made me a much better therapist. </p>
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