What are your thoughts on ABMP's survey showing falling enrollment at massage schools and many small schools closing? - massage and bodywork professionals2024-03-29T02:26:55Zhttps://massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?feed=yes&xn_auth=noGordon, I agree with you. Bu…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2012-06-28:2887274:Comment:2658842012-06-28T01:49:41.951ZGary W Addis, LMThttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GaryWAddis
<p>Gordon, I agree with you. But there really is value to the schooling. Faster paced world today. Some of the people in my classes couldn't learn even a portion of what you know in 300 years--in fact, most practicing LMTs will never accumulate the storehouse of knowledge that you and Daniel and Stephen and others of like mind take for granted. Y'all think outside the textbook. </p>
<p>Y'all go after the knowledge wherever you find it--in your case, Gordon, although you live in a state that…</p>
<p>Gordon, I agree with you. But there really is value to the schooling. Faster paced world today. Some of the people in my classes couldn't learn even a portion of what you know in 300 years--in fact, most practicing LMTs will never accumulate the storehouse of knowledge that you and Daniel and Stephen and others of like mind take for granted. Y'all think outside the textbook. </p>
<p>Y'all go after the knowledge wherever you find it--in your case, Gordon, although you live in a state that doesn't require CEUs, doesn't even require licensing, you spend your hard-earned money to learn merely for the sake of the <em>knowing</em>--if you hear of an easier way to relieve pain, you will investigate, and if the claim appears to be true, you eventually study it.</p>
<p>This afternoon at a flea market, I found a 1922 copy of John H. Kellog's book, The Art of Massage (copyright 1895). They knew a lot already before the turn of that century. But compared to what research has revealed in the last 30 years, they were deaf and dumb and working blind with one hand handcuffed. </p>
<p>Gordon, my friend, regulations in the 44 regulated states may label you "unqualified" because you can't always put a name to what you find in the tissues. Their loss. Because definitions in a textbook and degrees hanging on a wall don't matter to a body that's hurting: you take away the pain, and that is what massage therapy is supposed to be about. </p>
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<p> </p> Our massage education system…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2012-06-27:2887274:Comment:2659612012-06-27T19:26:41.662ZGordon J. Wallishttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GordonJWallis
<p>Our massage education system doesnt make much sense to me...None, when I really think about it.. Average career span for our profession is only six years...Yet educational requirements and costs keep increasing. Ive been a therapist for almost thirty years, yet I couldnt pass any of those exams or tests you are taking Gary.. So, obviously most of what they teach or test on, has little value...It just locks us into some subservient 3rd tier status when in reality we should be taught a…</p>
<p>Our massage education system doesnt make much sense to me...None, when I really think about it.. Average career span for our profession is only six years...Yet educational requirements and costs keep increasing. Ive been a therapist for almost thirty years, yet I couldnt pass any of those exams or tests you are taking Gary.. So, obviously most of what they teach or test on, has little value...It just locks us into some subservient 3rd tier status when in reality we should be taught a real skill set and mindset that sets us up as a provider of 1st choice, once any underlying pathology is ruled out, when it comes to stress and pain reduction. Reality to me is way different.<br/> <br/> <cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?page=5&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265658&x=1#2887274Comment265658"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Actually, in my case, the high cost isn't justified by teaching above entry level. And the high cost of education continues after licensing. We're required to earn 24 CEUs every license cycle, and only 5 hours of them can be taken in any form other than in seminar. Here on the MS coast, we don't get many seminars booked; we have to travel to them at great expense. After one receives special certification in, say, NMT, and every other modality one wishes to specialize in, what's left? Keep retaking, or take new modalities that are little more than old modalities renamed. Everybody that wants to make a lot of money wants to become a CEU provider, and to do so they need to develop another new modality, or reinvent old techniques with a new name. </p>
<p>So, I agree, the answer isn't necessarily raising the bar educationally.</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Daniel Cohen said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265852&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2887274Comment265852"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>In the meantime we must deal with the realities of the massage market and where it is going. Medical massage or working in medical offices is not the high end of the market but the schooling required is the high cost of education. Entry level is just what it says. The level needed to enter the field. Why should the bar be raised to become exclusionary?<br/><br/><cite>Relax & Rejuvenate said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?page=5&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265651&x=1#2887274Comment265651"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><br/><br/><cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>That is patently false. Any gains made by the working class--the creation of the middle class actually-- are attributable to unionism...by workers banding together to demand fair wages and an end to child labor and the establishment of social safety nets like SS. Prior to unionism, the US had a lower standard of living than the poorest of the European nations. For 50 years, thanks to a strong middle class and the Democratic party, we enjoyed the highest per capita standard of living in the history of the Earth. Today, with the destruction of unionism and the rise of tea party hatred of all things not caucasian, we suffer from a lower standard of living than, what, about 15 countries some of them with smaller economies than Bolivia</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p> </p>
<p>Wow...what communist manifesto did you swallow?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Wage increases were, and still are, driven by supply and demand -- the most basic law of economics and human nature.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You might want to do a little research into wage rates and labor demand during the years of America's growth and the Industrial revolution</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf">http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Agricultural wages were HIGHER than industrial wages -- and was the major employer in America and the driver of the middle class until World War I ended.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Indsustrial wages GREW in order to attract workers -- primarily women -- away from the farms.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>but then waves of immigrants -- increases in labor supply -- drove wages down, quite naturally. The nation grew -- and farm wages in the frontier states were often double what they were in the Midwest, again reflecting supply and demand. No unions in frontier farms, yet they earned more than factory workers in the big cities or farmers back east. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>unions are anti-humanist-- they reduce everyone to the same common denominator. That may work for those of you below average -- wanting what the above average have through hard work, discipline or God given gifts -- but it is just a redistribution scheme to take from those above average.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The problem with bottoms up economics is no one wants what the bottom has, and the bottom does not raise anyone up, it is the middle and the top that raise those below them to a new level</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's not about Right or Left, it's about human nature and freedom vs collectivism and control.</p>
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</blockquote> Actually, in my case, the hig…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2012-06-26:2887274:Comment:2656582012-06-26T19:26:08.255ZGary W Addis, LMThttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GaryWAddis
<p>Actually, in my case, the high cost isn't justified by teaching above entry level. And the high cost of education continues after licensing. We're required to earn 24 CEUs every license cycle, and only 5 hours of them can be taken in any form other than in seminar. Here on the MS coast, we don't get many seminars booked; we have to travel to them at great expense. After one receives special certification in, say, NMT, and every other modality one wishes to specialize in, what's left? …</p>
<p>Actually, in my case, the high cost isn't justified by teaching above entry level. And the high cost of education continues after licensing. We're required to earn 24 CEUs every license cycle, and only 5 hours of them can be taken in any form other than in seminar. Here on the MS coast, we don't get many seminars booked; we have to travel to them at great expense. After one receives special certification in, say, NMT, and every other modality one wishes to specialize in, what's left? Keep retaking, or take new modalities that are little more than old modalities renamed. Everybody that wants to make a lot of money wants to become a CEU provider, and to do so they need to develop another new modality, or reinvent old techniques with a new name. </p>
<p>So, I agree, the answer isn't necessarily raising the bar educationally.</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Daniel Cohen said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265852&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2887274Comment265852"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>In the meantime we must deal with the realities of the massage market and where it is going. Medical massage or working in medical offices is not the high end of the market but the schooling required is the high cost of education. Entry level is just what it says. The level needed to enter the field. Why should the bar be raised to become exclusionary?<br/><br/><cite>Relax & Rejuvenate said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?page=5&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265651&x=1#2887274Comment265651"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><br/><br/><cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>That is patently false. Any gains made by the working class--the creation of the middle class actually-- are attributable to unionism...by workers banding together to demand fair wages and an end to child labor and the establishment of social safety nets like SS. Prior to unionism, the US had a lower standard of living than the poorest of the European nations. For 50 years, thanks to a strong middle class and the Democratic party, we enjoyed the highest per capita standard of living in the history of the Earth. Today, with the destruction of unionism and the rise of tea party hatred of all things not caucasian, we suffer from a lower standard of living than, what, about 15 countries some of them with smaller economies than Bolivia</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p> </p>
<p>Wow...what communist manifesto did you swallow?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Wage increases were, and still are, driven by supply and demand -- the most basic law of economics and human nature.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You might want to do a little research into wage rates and labor demand during the years of America's growth and the Industrial revolution</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf">http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Agricultural wages were HIGHER than industrial wages -- and was the major employer in America and the driver of the middle class until World War I ended.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Indsustrial wages GREW in order to attract workers -- primarily women -- away from the farms.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>but then waves of immigrants -- increases in labor supply -- drove wages down, quite naturally. The nation grew -- and farm wages in the frontier states were often double what they were in the Midwest, again reflecting supply and demand. No unions in frontier farms, yet they earned more than factory workers in the big cities or farmers back east. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>unions are anti-humanist-- they reduce everyone to the same common denominator. That may work for those of you below average -- wanting what the above average have through hard work, discipline or God given gifts -- but it is just a redistribution scheme to take from those above average.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The problem with bottoms up economics is no one wants what the bottom has, and the bottom does not raise anyone up, it is the middle and the top that raise those below them to a new level</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's not about Right or Left, it's about human nature and freedom vs collectivism and control.</p>
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</blockquote> Interesting conversation, R&a…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2012-06-26:2887274:Comment:2657532012-06-26T19:16:21.795ZGary W Addis, LMThttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GaryWAddis
<p>Interesting conversation, R&R. We are both passionate aobut our opinions. But I'm not going to continue to participate in a political discussion within the open forum. I'll debate you to any degree you wish, privately. just not here, subjecting everyone to our discussion.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Relax & Rejuvenate said:…</cite></p>
<p>Interesting conversation, R&R. We are both passionate aobut our opinions. But I'm not going to continue to participate in a political discussion within the open forum. I'll debate you to any degree you wish, privately. just not here, subjecting everyone to our discussion.<br/> <br/> <cite>Relax & Rejuvenate said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265852&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2887274Comment265651"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><br/><br/><cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>That is patently false. Any gains made by the working class--the creation of the middle class actually-- are attributable to unionism...by workers banding together to demand fair wages and an end to child labor and the establishment of social safety nets like SS. Prior to unionism, the US had a lower standard of living than the poorest of the European nations. For 50 years, thanks to a strong middle class and the Democratic party, we enjoyed the highest per capita standard of living in the history of the Earth. Today, with the destruction of unionism and the rise of tea party hatred of all things not caucasian, we suffer from a lower standard of living than, what, about 15 countries some of them with smaller economies than Bolivia</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p> </p>
<p>Wow...what communist manifesto did you swallow?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Wage increases were, and still are, driven by supply and demand -- the most basic law of economics and human nature.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You might want to do a little research into wage rates and labor demand during the years of America's growth and the Industrial revolution</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf">http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Agricultural wages were HIGHER than industrial wages -- and was the major employer in America and the driver of the middle class until World War I ended.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Indsustrial wages GREW in order to attract workers -- primarily women -- away from the farms.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>but then waves of immigrants -- increases in labor supply -- drove wages down, quite naturally. The nation grew -- and farm wages in the frontier states were often double what they were in the Midwest, again reflecting supply and demand. No unions in frontier farms, yet they earned more than factory workers in the big cities or farmers back east. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>unions are anti-humanist-- they reduce everyone to the same common denominator. That may work for those of you below average -- wanting what the above average have through hard work, discipline or God given gifts -- but it is just a redistribution scheme to take from those above average.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The problem with bottoms up economics is no one wants what the bottom has, and the bottom does not raise anyone up, it is the middle and the top that raise those below them to a new level</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's not about Right or Left, it's about human nature and freedom vs collectivism and control.</p>
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</blockquote> In the meantime we must deal…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2012-06-26:2887274:Comment:2658522012-06-26T19:04:17.611ZDaniel Cohenhttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/DanielCohen
<p>In the meantime we must deal with the realities of the massage market and where it is going. Medical massage or working in medical offices is not the high end of the market but the schooling required is the high cost of education. Entry level is just what it says. The level needed to enter the field. Why should the bar be raised to become exclusionary?<br></br><br></br><cite>Relax & Rejuvenate said:…</cite></p>
<p>In the meantime we must deal with the realities of the massage market and where it is going. Medical massage or working in medical offices is not the high end of the market but the schooling required is the high cost of education. Entry level is just what it says. The level needed to enter the field. Why should the bar be raised to become exclusionary?<br/><br/><cite>Relax & Rejuvenate said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?page=5&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265651&x=1#2887274Comment265651"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><br/><br/><cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>That is patently false. Any gains made by the working class--the creation of the middle class actually-- are attributable to unionism...by workers banding together to demand fair wages and an end to child labor and the establishment of social safety nets like SS. Prior to unionism, the US had a lower standard of living than the poorest of the European nations. For 50 years, thanks to a strong middle class and the Democratic party, we enjoyed the highest per capita standard of living in the history of the Earth. Today, with the destruction of unionism and the rise of tea party hatred of all things not caucasian, we suffer from a lower standard of living than, what, about 15 countries some of them with smaller economies than Bolivia</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p> </p>
<p>Wow...what communist manifesto did you swallow?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Wage increases were, and still are, driven by supply and demand -- the most basic law of economics and human nature.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You might want to do a little research into wage rates and labor demand during the years of America's growth and the Industrial revolution</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Agricultural wages were HIGHER than industrial wages -- and was the major employer in America and the driver of the middle class until World War I ended.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Indsustrial wages GREW in order to attract workers -- primarily women -- away from the farms.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>but then waves of immigrants -- increases in labor supply -- drove wages down, quite naturally. The nation grew -- and farm wages in the frontier states were often double what they were in the Midwest, again reflecting supply and demand. No unions in frontier farms, yet they earned more than factory workers in the big cities or farmers back east. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>unions are anti-humanist-- they reduce everyone to the same common denominator. That may work for those of you below average -- wanting what the above average have through hard work, discipline or God given gifts -- but it is just a redistribution scheme to take from those above average.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The problem with bottoms up economics is no one wants what the bottom has, and the bottom does not raise anyone up, it is the middle and the top that raise those below them to a new level</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's not about Right or Left, it's about human nature and freedom vs collectivism and control.</p>
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</blockquote> Gary W Addis said:
That is pa…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2012-06-26:2887274:Comment:2656512012-06-26T15:26:44.769ZRelax & Rejuvenatehttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/RelaxRejuvenate
<p><br></br><br></br><cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>That is patently false. Any gains made by the working class--the creation of the middle class actually-- are attributable to unionism...by workers banding together to demand fair wages and an end to child labor and the establishment of social safety nets like SS. Prior to unionism, the US…</p>
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<p><br/><br/><cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>That is patently false. Any gains made by the working class--the creation of the middle class actually-- are attributable to unionism...by workers banding together to demand fair wages and an end to child labor and the establishment of social safety nets like SS. Prior to unionism, the US had a lower standard of living than the poorest of the European nations. For 50 years, thanks to a strong middle class and the Democratic party, we enjoyed the highest per capita standard of living in the history of the Earth. Today, with the destruction of unionism and the rise of tea party hatred of all things not caucasian, we suffer from a lower standard of living than, what, about 15 countries some of them with smaller economies than Bolivia</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p> </p>
<p>Wow...what communist manifesto did you swallow?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Wage increases were, and still are, driven by supply and demand -- the most basic law of economics and human nature.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You might want to do a little research into wage rates and labor demand during the years of America's growth and the Industrial revolution</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf">http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2486.pdf</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Agricultural wages were HIGHER than industrial wages -- and was the major employer in America and the driver of the middle class until World War I ended.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Indsustrial wages GREW in order to attract workers -- primarily women -- away from the farms.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>but then waves of immigrants -- increases in labor supply -- drove wages down, quite naturally. The nation grew -- and farm wages in the frontier states were often double what they were in the Midwest, again reflecting supply and demand. No unions in frontier farms, yet they earned more than factory workers in the big cities or farmers back east. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>unions are anti-humanist-- they reduce everyone to the same common denominator. That may work for those of you below average -- wanting what the above average have through hard work, discipline or God given gifts -- but it is just a redistribution scheme to take from those above average.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The problem with bottoms up economics is no one wants what the bottom has, and the bottom does not raise anyone up, it is the middle and the top that raise those below them to a new level</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's not about Right or Left, it's about human nature and freedom vs collectivism and control.</p>
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</div> Gordon J. Wallis said:
I do…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2012-06-26:2887274:Comment:2656442012-06-26T05:02:42.396ZGary W Addis, LMThttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GaryWAddis
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Gordon J. Wallis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265918&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2887274Comment265918"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I don't know...It just seems awfully expensive now. I went to school a long time ago..However one could bus tables in a restaurant and make enough money to pay for your tuition, as well as eat good food and pay your…</p>
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<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Gordon J. Wallis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265918&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2887274Comment265918"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I don't know...It just seems awfully expensive now. I went to school a long time ago..However one could bus tables in a restaurant and make enough money to pay for your tuition, as well as eat good food and pay your rent... I had 700 hours for my license. Total of a years time.. ..I didnt have to borrow money.. I worked, it was challenging...but I wasn't in debt when I received my license. Thats the difference...and its BIG. I went to school in 84 or 85.<br/><br/><cite>Relax & Rejuvenate said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?page=4&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265719&x=1#2887274Comment265719"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><br/><br/><cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>If all education were as free (to the qualified!) as grade school, that too would eliminate the problem, right? I interviewed author Robert B. Parker for a Writer's Digest article years ago. He was a Harvard professor; he worked a total of 4 hours per week (2 lectures, grad students did the grading) and was paid what he admitted was a ridiculous sum for it. THAT has nothing to do w/ government. </p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>It has EVERYTHING to do with government. Government subsidizes higher education by guaranteeing student loans -- not just the interest rate, the loans themselves. Just like Massage Schools offering financial aid. When something is subsidized/guaranteed by a bottom-less source of funds, there is no incentive to control costs -- which leads to outrageous tuition (Harvard's buildings/real estate etc are not 8x more expensive/valuable than City College of NY or UCLA, but their tuition is) to pay outrageous sums to Ivory Tower Gods to work 2 hours a week.</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Government did not tell Harvard what to pay or charge its students. The subsidy is a very good thing. The blacks that you mention and poor whites and browns too are able to attend college only because the student loans are guaranteed by the government. This becomes a burden only because BIG Business seizes the opportunity to ram up their prices and aggressively enroll unqualified people. Why do they get away with it? Your Republican friends force anti-government amendments into any bill that weakens protections and oversight. </p>
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<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265918&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2887274Comment265918"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?page=4&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265719&x=1#2887274Comment265719"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Its not about corporations or educational institutions -- it's about human nature. When things are in excess, they are wasted. When things are driven by supply and demand they are put to monitored closely and put to optimal use.</p>
<p>And, by the way, the government is inherently evil. EVERYTHING the government has -- its power, its $ -- every single thing -- once belonged to the citizenry. I am not saying that government is not necessary, but I recognize it is not inherently benevolent, quite the opposite, it is inherently inefficient and destructive. The government's power to pull you over for Drunk Driving solely exists because the citizen's agreed that the freedom to drive drunk is one worth giving up. But it is this same power that has been corrupted by human nature that gives the police to pull someone over for driving while Black.</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>It STILL belongs to the people-- WE are the government. Unfortunately, since the election of Ronnie, Big Business owns the bureaucracy that manages government. Every bill up for a vote in Congress is loaded down with big business pork before the vote. Yes, Democrats are big offenders also. </p>
<p>You want to discuss Dubya's wastage of trillions on war against Iraq? Iraq--Hussein--was America's greatest ally in the region, Saddam did whatever Reagan/Bush wanted; he lost 1 million men fighting as America's surrogate in war with Iran. Whatever WMD he ever had, he got it from the US. W's grandfathers were war profiteering with Hitler while Americans were dying trying to defeat the bastard. W's daddy was business partners with the bin Laden family on 9/11, W ordered them safe exist from the US in several fully loaded 747s. </p>
<p>Don't blame low level managers and office workers for the failures of government that has been corrupted, not by We The People, but by the 1% who own, what, about 80% of everything in the country.</p>
<p>I take it you agree that corporations are people and have every right due you as a citizen? that it is perfectly alright w/ you that Adelson and the Koch brothers will spend more than a billion dollars this election cycle to overpower the nickles and dimes collected from millions of low income Americans. </p>
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<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265918&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2887274Comment265918"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?page=4&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265719&x=1#2887274Comment265719"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p></p>
<p>Don't forget, our republic existed for 100+ years without a penny of federal income tax being extracted from the citizens. Trillions have been spent on eradicating poverty, yet a higher % of the citizens are now in poverty</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>That is patently false. Any gains made by the working class--the creation of the middle class actually-- are attributable to unionism...by workers banding together to demand fair wages and an end to child labor and the establishment of social safety nets like SS. Prior to unionism, the US had a lower standard of living than the poorest of the European nations. For 50 years, thanks to a strong middle class and the Democratic party, we enjoyed the highest per capita standard of living in the history of the Earth. Today, with the destruction of unionism and the rise of tea party hatred of all things not caucasian, we suffer from a lower standard of living than, what, about 15 countries some of them with smaller economies than Bolivia.</p>
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<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265918&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2887274Comment265918"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?page=4&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265719&x=1#2887274Comment265719"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Just think of the vitriol used in describing a ten year war that costs Billions -- not Trillions - and did not accomplish it's goal.</p>
<p>So what would you call a 50 year-long government effort to HELP its own citizens, but has made their condition worse, has increased crime (more Black American's die each year -- over 7,000,-- than have died in a decade of fighting in Iraq & Afghanistan COMBINED), and has left them worse off than when the government started helping them? Certainly not benevolent -- sounds pretty MALevolent to me. And that is just inner-city poverty -- Latinos and rural America has not been helped either.</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Place the blame where it belongs, on people like the Kochs and Big Pharma and multinational oil who bribe legislators with "campaign contributions" in the tens of millions. For instance, Max Baucus, the Democratic chairman of the committee responsible for drafting Obamacare, <em>during the committee meetings</em> was given a $16 million donation from just one of the many large insurance companies. Sure Baucus is supposedly a Democrat, but that just shows the insidious, evil influence of Big Business to the process of governance.</p>
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</div> I don't know...It just seems…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2012-06-25:2887274:Comment:2659182012-06-25T19:20:30.142ZGordon J. Wallishttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GordonJWallis
<p>I don't know...It just seems awfully expensive now. I went to school a long time ago..However one could bus tables in a restaurant and make enough money to pay for your tuition, as well as eat good food and pay your rent... I had 700 hours for my license. Total of a years time.. ..I didnt have to borrow money.. I worked, it was challenging...but I wasn't in debt when I received my license. Thats the difference...and its BIG. I went to school in 84 or 85.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Relax &…</cite></p>
<p>I don't know...It just seems awfully expensive now. I went to school a long time ago..However one could bus tables in a restaurant and make enough money to pay for your tuition, as well as eat good food and pay your rent... I had 700 hours for my license. Total of a years time.. ..I didnt have to borrow money.. I worked, it was challenging...but I wasn't in debt when I received my license. Thats the difference...and its BIG. I went to school in 84 or 85.<br/> <br/> <cite>Relax & Rejuvenate said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?page=4&commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265719&x=1#2887274Comment265719"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><br/><br/><cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>If all education were as free (to the qualified!) as grade school, that too would eliminate the problem, right? I interviewed author Robert B. Parker for a Writer's Digest article years ago. He was a Harvard professor; he worked a total of 4 hours per week (2 lectures, grad students did the grading) and was paid what he admitted was a ridiculous sum for it. THAT has nothing to do w/ government. </p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>It has EVERYTHING to do with government. Government subsidizes higher education by guaranteeing student loans -- not just the interest rate, the loans themselves. Just like Massage Schools offering financial aid. When something is subsidized/guaranteed by a bottom-less source of funds, there is no incentive to control costs -- which leads to outrageous tuition (Harvard's buildings/real estate etc are not 8x more expensive/valuable than City College of NY or UCLA, but their tuition is) to pay outrageous sums to Ivory Tower Gods to work 2 hours a week.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its not about corporations or educational institutions -- it's about human nature. When things are in excess, they are wasted. When things are driven by supply and demand they are put to monitored closely and put to optimal use.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And, by the way, the government is inherently evil. EVERYTHING the government has -- its power, its $ -- every single thing -- once belonged to the citizenry. I am not saying that government is not necessary, but I recognize it is not inherently benevolent, quite the opposite, it is inherently inefficient and destructive. The government's power to pull you over for Drunk Driving solely exists because the citizen's agreed that the freedom to drive drunk is one worth giving up. But it is this same power that has been corrupted by human nature that gives the police to pull someone over for driving while Black.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Don't forget, our republic existed for 100+ years without a penny of federal income tax being extracted from the citizens. Trillions have been spent on eradicating poverty, yet a higher % of the citizens are now in poverty</p>
<p>Just think of the vitriol used in describing a ten year war that costs Billions -- not Trillions - and did not accomplish it's goal.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So what would you call a 50 year-long government effort to HELP its own citizens, but has made their condition worse, has increased crime (more Black American's die each year -- over 7,000,-- than have died in a decade of fighting in Iraq & Afghanistan COMBINED), and has left them worse off than when the government started helping them? Certainly not benevolent -- sounds pretty MALevolent to me. And that is just inner-city poverty -- Latinos and rural America has not been helped either.</p>
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</blockquote> Gary W Addis said:
If all edu…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2012-06-25:2887274:Comment:2657192012-06-25T14:46:51.171ZRelax & Rejuvenatehttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/RelaxRejuvenate
<p><br></br><br></br><cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>If all education were as free (to the qualified!) as grade school, that too would eliminate the problem, right? I interviewed author Robert B. Parker for a Writer's Digest article years ago. He was a Harvard professor; he worked a total of 4 hours per week (2 lectures, grad students did the grading) and was paid what he admitted was a ridiculous sum for it. THAT has nothing to do w/…</p>
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<p><br/><br/><cite>Gary W Addis said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>If all education were as free (to the qualified!) as grade school, that too would eliminate the problem, right? I interviewed author Robert B. Parker for a Writer's Digest article years ago. He was a Harvard professor; he worked a total of 4 hours per week (2 lectures, grad students did the grading) and was paid what he admitted was a ridiculous sum for it. THAT has nothing to do w/ government. </p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>It has EVERYTHING to do with government. Government subsidizes higher education by guaranteeing student loans -- not just the interest rate, the loans themselves. Just like Massage Schools offering financial aid. When something is subsidized/guaranteed by a bottom-less source of funds, there is no incentive to control costs -- which leads to outrageous tuition (Harvard's buildings/real estate etc are not 8x more expensive/valuable than City College of NY or UCLA, but their tuition is) to pay outrageous sums to Ivory Tower Gods to work 2 hours a week.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its not about corporations or educational institutions -- it's about human nature. When things are in excess, they are wasted. When things are driven by supply and demand they are put to monitored closely and put to optimal use.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And, by the way, the government is inherently evil. EVERYTHING the government has -- its power, its $ -- every single thing -- once belonged to the citizenry. I am not saying that government is not necessary, but I recognize it is not inherently benevolent, quite the opposite, it is inherently inefficient and destructive. The government's power to pull you over for Drunk Driving solely exists because the citizen's agreed that the freedom to drive drunk is one worth giving up. But it is this same power that has been corrupted by human nature that gives the police to pull someone over for driving while Black.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Don't forget, our republic existed for 100+ years without a penny of federal income tax being extracted from the citizens. Trillions have been spent on eradicating poverty, yet a higher % of the citizens are now in poverty</p>
<p>Just think of the vitriol used in describing a ten year war that costs Billions -- not Trillions - and did not accomplish it's goal.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So what would you call a 50 year-long government effort to HELP its own citizens, but has made their condition worse, has increased crime (more Black American's die each year -- over 7,000,-- than have died in a decade of fighting in Iraq & Afghanistan COMBINED), and has left them worse off than when the government started helping them? Certainly not benevolent -- sounds pretty MALevolent to me. And that is just inner-city poverty -- Latinos and rural America has not been helped either.</p>
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</div> If all education were as free…tag:massageprofessionals.com,2012-06-24:2887274:Comment:2652042012-06-24T20:59:08.187ZGary W Addis, LMThttps://massageprofessionals.com/profile/GaryWAddis
<p>If all education were as free (to the qualified!) as grade school, that too would eliminate the problem, right? I interviewed author Robert B. Parker for a Writer's Digest article years ago. He was a Harvard professor; he worked a total of 4 hours per week (2 lectures, grad students did the grading) and was paid what he admitted was a ridiculous sum for it. THAT has nothing to do w/ government. </p>
<p>The rest of the civilized world provides free- not merely subsidized, or via loans, but…</p>
<p>If all education were as free (to the qualified!) as grade school, that too would eliminate the problem, right? I interviewed author Robert B. Parker for a Writer's Digest article years ago. He was a Harvard professor; he worked a total of 4 hours per week (2 lectures, grad students did the grading) and was paid what he admitted was a ridiculous sum for it. THAT has nothing to do w/ government. </p>
<p>The rest of the civilized world provides free- not merely subsidized, or via loans, but free-- higher education for all who demo an ability to learn, and they are advancing and we are declining. </p>
<p>R&R, guv'mint ain't the evil; the evil sits in the boardrooms, like Mittens, sucking 10-fold profits by closing American plants and then financing their reopening in China. If the 1% could develop a way to outsource massage and make a financial killing off it, they would.</p>
<p>The middle class is necessary, and the big boys are doing everything in their power to destroy it. As Mitch McConnell infamously remarked, the number one job of Republicans is getting the black dude out of the WH, even if that requires the destruction of the American economy. </p>
<p>Big Business uncontrolled gives us ruinous oil spills and poisoned aquifers and clear cutting of our few remaining giant Sequoias, and privatization of all public services. This nation was number one for standard of living when the top tax rate was 80%--and I never saw a millionaire in a bread line. Now, I think most would appreciate it if you, and I, refrain from arguing politics within a massage forum. We can continue this via private messaging if you like.</p>
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<p>BTW, the tuition is already beyond control: mine cost me $32,000 in student loans and interest. But that is hardly the fault of people out of work trying to find a way to earn a living--the fault belongs to the laws that encourage and permit corporate gorging at the public trough. If the Republicans force the issue and don't extend the control on the interest that will otherwise end in July, a very large percentage will be forced into default. And THAT will seriously hurt the economy overall.</p>
<p>Regarding the "more education", a large uneducated workforce will certainly hold the wages for everyone down (including massage therapists). But, seriously, do you think we can compete with Chinese and Indian labor--they'll work for $10 per day and love it. People living under stairwells and in wrecked cars can't survive on that. While attending massage school, I'm surviving on my Social Security, $33 per day, and there's always 3 weeks left at the end of the check.</p>
<p>When wages go up due to more people receiving higher education, the number of people who can afford a massage increases.</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Relax & Rejuvenate said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/what-are-your-thoughts-on-1?commentId=2887274%3AComment%3A265593&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2887274Comment265123"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><br/><br/><cite>Gerry Bunnell said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>If you look at the rates of tuition that some schools are charging, massage education is alive and well. Having investigated several colleges in the area, I've found 2 that charge between 17,000 and 20,000 for a massage education. Another charges close to 27,000. This is do to their ability to provide financial aid. This rate of tuition allows for greater advertising that the small schools can't compete with. </p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p> </p>
<p>This is precisely what is wrong with the government being involved in education -- or anything else they subsidize out of the ;misguided notion having more "educated" citizens is a good thing.</p>
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<p>They required the curriculum to be X hours with Y subjects in order to be accredited. Being accredited means you can offer financial aid. Financial aid means people are buying more tuition than they can reasonably afford (sounds a lot like getting a mortgage, and look where that got us)</p>
<p>An extra $5k in tuition means an extra $50 a month in a student loan payment -- that's one massage -- who is going to miss that?!?!?!</p>
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<p>But then you find massage tuitions skyrocketing (duh, 4 year college tuition increases are the ONLY thing in our economy rising faster than health care costs, and it just happens to coincide with more calls for financial aid for college tuitioin and subisdized loan rates), fewer people enrolling overall, and those that do, tend to go to the larger schools with the financial aid machine.</p>
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<p>What we are seeing is not what is wrong with massage education, or even what is wrong with other forms of higher education. It is what is wrong with our government thinking it is responsible for cradle-to-grave coddling and buying votes with other people's money.</p>
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<p>Keep that in mind come November.</p>
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