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The Massage Therapy Alliance of America - A New Alliance For Therapists!
We are so excited for Massage Therapists!!! But, instead of re-explaining it here, go to the source at http://www.mtaamassage.org
Some of the debate that will take place on this topic will be heated. If opposing sides discussing issues is not your cup of tea, just visit the website. FYI!
Views: 518
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Alexei Levine on
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That's exactly it Christopher, Mike has not claimed to be trying represent the entire profession, no one entity can. The spectrum of voices in Massage Therapy is too diverse to be represented by one organization. I know many therapists who do not feel represented by the AMTA or ABMP. Don't get me wrong, these organizations often do good things, but there's no way they can represent everybody. The more voices the better.
Christopher A. Moyer said:
What are people afraid of?
They might be afraid that they are going to be inadvertently represented by someone who claims to speak for the entire profession, but who does not represent the entire profession.
And, they might be afraid that this is motivated more by an opportunity to increase attendance at an specific event promoted by a specific individual than it is by a genuine need to initiate changes in the profession.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that all the current plans of the proposed alliance are being kept under wraps.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that existing organizations, such as ABMP and AMTA, which are well-positioned to influence the profession and address key issues, are being overlooked at a cost to the profession.
Most of all, they might be afraid of the fact that all of this is being led by someone who expresses interest in surveying opinion and in listening, but then proceeds by only actually listening to folks who agree with his position, and by being condescending and avoidant with anyone who does not agree with his position.
Finally, if there seems to be a dearth of persons writing to say that they are concerned about this development, that may be because they have learned, from experience, that offering a question or a challenge to this individual - who is so ubiquitous on this site that many of the folks who visit it think, erroneously, that this site is his - is an exercise in futility. There are plenty of interesting and dynamic people connected to the massage therapy profession who have abandoned this site as a result.
Back to lurking.
-CM
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Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on
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Sorry Christopher. This Alliance is for and by massage therapists. You are not one. I will be ignoring any of your remarks. This is what has affected other organizations and why people are writing about coporate takeovers of massage.
Christopher A. Moyer said:What are people afraid of?
They might be afraid that they are going to be inadvertently represented by someone who claims to speak for the entire profession, but who does not represent the entire profession.
And, they might be afraid that this is motivated more by an opportunity to increase attendance at an specific event promoted by a specific individual than it is by a genuine need to initiate changes in the profession.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that all the current plans of the proposed alliance are being kept under wraps.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that existing organizations, such as ABMP and AMTA, which are well-positioned to influence the profession and address key issues, are being overlooked at a cost to the profession.
Most of all, they might be afraid of the fact that all of this is being led by someone who expresses interest in surveying opinion and in listening, but then proceeds by only actually listening to folks who agree with his position, and by being condescending and avoidant with anyone who does not agree with his position.
Finally, if there seems to be a dearth of persons writing to say that they are concerned about this development, that may be because they have learned, from experience, that offering a question or a challenge to this individual - who is so ubiquitous on this site that many of the folks who visit it think, erroneously, that this site is his - is an exercise in futility. There are plenty of interesting and dynamic people connected to the massage therapy profession who have abandoned this site as a result.
Back to lurking.
-CM
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Permalink Reply by Christopher A. Moyer on
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Sorry Christopher. This Alliance is for and by massage therapists. You are not one. I will be ignoring any of your remarks.
Well of course you will. That's your M.O. in any discussion, to ignore anything that does not agree with your position.I'm not invested in this topic anyway. I'm not a massage therapist, as you noted. I merely think it's important that other people know what they're getting into, such as the poster who asked 'what are people afraid of?' Well, reasonable people have some reasonable concerns.
And you should feel free to ignore all of my remarks on any topic, as it is my own policy not to attempt to discuss anything with you on any topic, as history has shown it to be a waste of time. Carry on.
-CM
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Alexei,
Christopher is trying to draw AMTA and ABMP into the conversation to split people. He is trying to put us on their level when that is not our intent. He has always used deception to try and affect. We are not an association. We will take no one from AMTA or ABMP. Hopefully, we will bring the 100,000 plus therapists into the structured field and many will join these Associations. But this is the way he works. Even speaking to him, he sets up false precepts and builds from there. So I knew he would be coming and our program is for massage therapists and I am not wasting time on him, when he approaches with the attitude he entered the discussion with.
He does this on this site and many folk have left because of him as well. He helps few and hurts many. He can claim that it is so I can make money all he wants. People that do participate in my events know I keep the costs down to a minimum.
Anyone doubting this simply has to go to http://www.worldmassagefestival.com/2011/compare.html and see who keeps things as low as possible and gives away more than anyone. The people standing up against this on this site have argued with me on most issues. They don't wish to help they are trying to hinder as most, I think will see. It started out with a picture was not proper and now Christopher is skirting allegations. This is their way. Christopher is a trouble maker. He will always be. He has 10 modalities that he wishes to see quashed because they can not be explained to his satisfaction. He will fail. This is an effort to stop us from organizing. And they have already failed. Fighting us will make the ranks grow and set their determination to go against what he represents but it is his choice to make.
We will go on. There will be many challenges ahead! We will make it and make a positive difference.
Alexei Levine said:That's exactly it Christopher, Mike has not claimed to be trying represent the entire profession, no one entity can. The spectrum of voices in Massage Therapy is too diverse to be represented by one organization. I know many therapists who do not feel represented by the AMTA or ABMP. Don't get me wrong, these organizations often do good things, but there's no way they can represent everybody. The more voices the better.
Christopher A. Moyer said:What are people afraid of?
They might be afraid that they are going to be inadvertently represented by someone who claims to speak for the entire profession, but who does not represent the entire profession.
And, they might be afraid that this is motivated more by an opportunity to increase attendance at an specific event promoted by a specific individual than it is by a genuine need to initiate changes in the profession.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that all the current plans of the proposed alliance are being kept under wraps.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that existing organizations, such as ABMP and AMTA, which are well-positioned to influence the profession and address key issues, are being overlooked at a cost to the profession.
Most of all, they might be afraid of the fact that all of this is being led by someone who expresses interest in surveying opinion and in listening, but then proceeds by only actually listening to folks who agree with his position, and by being condescending and avoidant with anyone who does not agree with his position.
Finally, if there seems to be a dearth of persons writing to say that they are concerned about this development, that may be because they have learned, from experience, that offering a question or a challenge to this individual - who is so ubiquitous on this site that many of the folks who visit it think, erroneously, that this site is his - is an exercise in futility. There are plenty of interesting and dynamic people connected to the massage therapy profession who have abandoned this site as a result.
Back to lurking.
-CM
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Permalink Reply by Lisa on
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Hey Laura...good point. However these scenarios concern me. Because if we are talking about an alliance that is suppose to be for the therapists by the therapists, but only a handful of members can vote, than how is that ever representative of our collective voices. Instead of following suit on old ways as you have described below, why not use this new alliance to start things NEW and offer a voice to all those. Email would not be that difficult to control or count, and yet it would give a broader more representative voice than the way things are and have been done in the past.
Laura Allen said:
Just as an interjection into this lively discussion, re the being present to vote: that is definitely not without precedence in startup organizations for the seating of a first board. The same thing happened when the Alliance for Massage Therapy Education was formed; those of us who were present were the ones who got to vote. It also happened at the Federation of State Massage Therapy Boards; those who were present got to vote. AMTA has currently over 50,000 members who are eligible to vote, and only 1800 of them voted in the last election which is conducted by mail and electronic voting. As a matter of fact, at the state chapter level, our officers are voted on by the membership who is present at the annual meeting, which is usually about 100-150 of us out of our 1800+ members.
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Permalink Reply by Choice Kinchen on
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First of all, Alexei, why do therapists, who are veterans and passionate about their work, and who are also asking questions of a very confusing situation, have to be "scared" of anything? Is it not kinda' disrespectful and antagonistic to assume that wanting more information and maybe having "a little diversity" in opinions means we are afraid? I've been in this biz for 11 years and in life's biz for 55 years. I've gone thru chemo multiple times and a heart attack. I'm not SCARED of anything. I also haven't lost my common sense and the ability to think on my own. I have the right and the obligation, as does anyone else, to question a startup biz or organization. If I was starting up a new biz or a new organization, I would expect no less from people I was trying to sell to or represent.
Mike, you certainly have the right to ignore Christopher. I see no reason to disparage him tho. Is that not like what you're accusing others on this forum of doing to you? As a matter of fact, he answered the "scared" post better than I could have. So, if I may and with Chris's permission:
"What are people afraid of?
They might be afraid that they are going to be inadvertently represented by someone who claims to speak for the entire profession, but who does not represent the entire profession.
And, they might be afraid that this is motivated more by an opportunity to increase attendance at an specific event promoted by a specific individual than it is by a genuine need to initiate changes in the profession.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that all the current plans of the proposed alliance are being kept under wraps.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that existing organizations, such as ABMP and AMTA, which are well-positioned to influence the profession and address key issues, are being overlooked at a cost to the profession.
Most of all, they might be afraid of the fact that all of this is being led by someone who expresses interest in surveying opinion and in listening, but then proceeds by only actually listening to folks who agree with his position, and by being condescending and avoidant with anyone who does not agree with his position.
Finally, if there seems to be a dearth of persons writing to say that they are concerned about this development, that may be because they have learned, from experience, that offering a question or a challenge to this individual - who is so ubiquitous on this site that many of the folks who visit it think, erroneously, that this site is his - is an exercise in futility. There are plenty of interesting and dynamic people connected to the massage therapy profession who have abandoned this site as a result."
And, as you know, I am a veteran massage therapist who I feel am entitled to have the questions and concerns answered by myself and others without the arrogance, antagonism and disrespect.
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I am sorry Samantha but anyone will hang up on someone that is calling just to take them away from their work.
Samantha J. Bennett said:"4. A new approach to how we deal with the public...."
Well that one's not starting off on a good note :(
Mike Hinkle said:
Sorry Christopher. This Alliance is for and by massage therapists. You are not one. I will be ignoring any of your remarks. This is what has affected other organizations and why people are writing about coporate takeovers of massage.
Christopher A. Moyer said:What are people afraid of?
They might be afraid that they are going to be inadvertently represented by someone who claims to speak for the entire profession, but who does not represent the entire profession.
And, they might be afraid that this is motivated more by an opportunity to increase attendance at an specific event promoted by a specific individual than it is by a genuine need to initiate changes in the profession.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that all the current plans of the proposed alliance are being kept under wraps.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that existing organizations, such as ABMP and AMTA, which are well-positioned to influence the profession and address key issues, are being overlooked at a cost to the profession.
Most of all, they might be afraid of the fact that all of this is being led by someone who expresses interest in surveying opinion and in listening, but then proceeds by only actually listening to folks who agree with his position, and by being condescending and avoidant with anyone who does not agree with his position.
Finally, if there seems to be a dearth of persons writing to say that they are concerned about this development, that may be because they have learned, from experience, that offering a question or a challenge to this individual - who is so ubiquitous on this site that many of the folks who visit it think, erroneously, that this site is his - is an exercise in futility. There are plenty of interesting and dynamic people connected to the massage therapy profession who have abandoned this site as a result.
Back to lurking.
-CM
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Choice,
It seems simple enough, Mike said he wants to leave the policy making up to the people who comprise the organization once it forms. But people appear to be not listening to what he's saying. I think the fact that you feel insulted by my use of the rhetorical device, "what are people afraid of?" reveals a high level of insecurity. That may be the root of the problem actually. The few MTs who are pushing for ever more technical standards for entry to the profession are desperate for external validation, and are afraid that they might be equated with the large number of MTs who simply want to do their part to heal the world.I do respect all fellow therapists and congratulate you on your survival.
Choice Kinchen said:First of all, Alexei, why do therapists, who are veterans and passionate about their work, and who are also asking questions of a very confusing situation, have to be "scared" of anything? Is it not kinda' disrespectful and antagonistic to assume that wanting more information and maybe having "a little diversity" in opinions means we are afraid? I've been in this biz for 11 years and in life's biz for 55 years. I've gone thru chemo multiple times and a heart attack. I'm not SCARED of anything. I also haven't lost my common sense and the ability to think on my own. I have the right and the obligation, as does anyone else, to question a startup biz or organization. If I was starting up a new biz or a new organization, I would expect no less from people I was trying to sell to or represent.
Mike, you certainly have the right to ignore Christopher. I see no reason to disparage him tho. Is that not like what you're accusing others on this forum of doing to you? As a matter of fact, he answered the "scared" post better than I could have. So, if I may and with Chris's permission:
"What are people afraid of?
They might be afraid that they are going to be inadvertently represented by someone who claims to speak for the entire profession, but who does not represent the entire profession.
And, they might be afraid that this is motivated more by an opportunity to increase attendance at an specific event promoted by a specific individual than it is by a genuine need to initiate changes in the profession.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that all the current plans of the proposed alliance are being kept under wraps.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that existing organizations, such as ABMP and AMTA, which are well-positioned to influence the profession and address key issues, are being overlooked at a cost to the profession.
Most of all, they might be afraid of the fact that all of this is being led by someone who expresses interest in surveying opinion and in listening, but then proceeds by only actually listening to folks who agree with his position, and by being condescending and avoidant with anyone who does not agree with his position.
Finally, if there seems to be a dearth of persons writing to say that they are concerned about this development, that may be because they have learned, from experience, that offering a question or a challenge to this individual - who is so ubiquitous on this site that many of the folks who visit it think, erroneously, that this site is his - is an exercise in futility. There are plenty of interesting and dynamic people connected to the massage therapy profession who have abandoned this site as a result."
And, as you know, I am a veteran massage therapist who I feel am entitled to have the questions and concerns answered by myself and others without the arrogance, antagonism and disrespect.
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First off...let me apologize for not being around these last few days of discussion. I have not abandoned my thread. :) stupid virus kept me away. probably a good thing. but now time to address a few things:
As far as Christopher's response, I couldn't have responded better myself! Thank you Christopher.
That's exactly it Christopher, Mike has not claimed to be trying represent the entire profession, no one entity can.
I beg to differ. Mike DID claim to be representing our entire profession when he claimed this to be an alliance FOR therapists BY therapists, when what he really means is FOR therapist (of like mind) BY therapists (veterans that have been hand choice by HIM).
To create an alliance that is suppose to be for all of us in a way that, as Mike has claimed, doesn't exit in any other massage organization, should at the very least be a collective, a "spectrum of voices". However the way this is being created it is about Mike and HIS voices.
Christopher is trying to draw AMTA and ABMP into the conversation to split people.
Christopher was NOT the first person in this thread to compare your alliance to the AMTA and ABMP, so please do not interject your personal battle with him, into this discussion. The only one that is looking deceptive right now is you.
The people standing up against this on this site have argued with me on most issues. They don't wish to help they are trying to hinder as most, I think will see. It started out with a picture was not proper and now Christopher is skirting allegations. This is their way.
I for one, have not always argued on this site. You are trying to use your debates with Christopher to now discredit others that are just not buying into your Alliance. It started out with a picture, because you put out a thread about the Alliance and it's website. If you didn't want "feedback" you should have never started the thread. Everyone on this site knows I have a background in graphic design, web sites, and marketing in general. I figured you would WANT that kind of experience and feedback, but instead it was met with hostility. The minute you have a website your immediately in the public eye. A web site shouldn't be hosted until it's ready to withstand the scrutiny of the public and in today's market you need a web site that is professional looking, not something that is just an interim site until things get put in place. But that's how I do things in business.
No one is trying to stop the alliance from forming. And had this been handled correctly and professionally, it could have turned into that many more signing up. At this rate, it will just be another "group" of therapists.
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Choice,
I agree with you I was rude, but I knew Christopher was coming and I wanted to nip it in the bud. He would just trade barbs and I really don't have the time. He has no interest in this. He is right I ignore things that really I can't control. And that is him. I'm just not as sweet as some about it. I tell it like it is when I know the answer and it is the right time to do so. These things, I have to decide. Christopher is trying to bait me into another week of discussions and after I explain things he walks away anyway. Not this time. Yes, it was abrupt and with some folks, you have to be.
Pertaining to people's fears... whatever they may be, I can't get involved in all that. All I can do is offer the program. Shooting the messenger will keep few from joining, as is being recorded. More folks are seeing what happens to one when they do stand up, they are attacked. I told many that talked about this before I filed that this would happen. They now are seeing it for themselves firsthand, telling others and will vote accordingly.
There is only one way to have an accurate count and that to me is more important than having everyone represented. You will never get evryone anywhere. And as has been noted, the Alliance has not been elected yet to make a motion to attain a secure website. Thus the election could be tainted.
The voice we are saying will be the voice of the membership of the Alliance. It is one stakeholder's voice. It is not "THE" voice of all massage therapy. But our membership is open to all massage therapists. We are inclusive. We already have representation from almost every state.
Choice, people can sit and worry about their fears or they can get involved or just ignore us. Either way, we go forward.
Choice Kinchen said:First of all, Alexei, why do therapists, who are veterans and passionate about their work, and who are also asking questions of a very confusing situation, have to be "scared" of anything? Is it not kinda' disrespectful and antagonistic to assume that wanting more information and maybe having "a little diversity" in opinions means we are afraid? I've been in this biz for 11 years and in life's biz for 55 years. I've gone thru chemo multiple times and a heart attack. I'm not SCARED of anything. I also haven't lost my common sense and the ability to think on my own. I have the right and the obligation, as does anyone else, to question a startup biz or organization. If I was starting up a new biz or a new organization, I would expect no less from people I was trying to sell to or represent.
Mike, you certainly have the right to ignore Christopher. I see no reason to disparage him tho. Is that not like what you're accusing others on this forum of doing to you? As a matter of fact, he answered the "scared" post better than I could have. So, if I may and with Chris's permission:
"What are people afraid of?
They might be afraid that they are going to be inadvertently represented by someone who claims to speak for the entire profession, but who does not represent the entire profession.
And, they might be afraid that this is motivated more by an opportunity to increase attendance at an specific event promoted by a specific individual than it is by a genuine need to initiate changes in the profession.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that all the current plans of the proposed alliance are being kept under wraps.
And, they might be afraid of the fact that existing organizations, such as ABMP and AMTA, which are well-positioned to influence the profession and address key issues, are being overlooked at a cost to the profession.
Most of all, they might be afraid of the fact that all of this is being led by someone who expresses interest in surveying opinion and in listening, but then proceeds by only actually listening to folks who agree with his position, and by being condescending and avoidant with anyone who does not agree with his position.
Finally, if there seems to be a dearth of persons writing to say that they are concerned about this development, that may be because they have learned, from experience, that offering a question or a challenge to this individual - who is so ubiquitous on this site that many of the folks who visit it think, erroneously, that this site is his - is an exercise in futility. There are plenty of interesting and dynamic people connected to the massage therapy profession who have abandoned this site as a result."
And, as you know, I am a veteran massage therapist who I feel am entitled to have the questions and concerns answered by myself and others without the arrogance, antagonism and disrespect.
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Lisa let's go one by one.
For therapist (you and friends) by therapist (me and friends). I am having people who have been in the industry for decades help write by-laws. Stop. (Why are you feel entitiled to enter at this point?) So you won't wait to see by-laws, you want to write them.
I am not picking anyone to serve in office or running myself. So you haven't waited to see the by-laws, or who is running or the job descriptions. It's a produce me these answers now or you're up to no-good. Sorry, you feel that way, but I feel you are trying to be more in the system right now than you are. I have xplained what I can to you. That is all I can do.
I am the Incorporater, That is the person that decides what he wants to create. Then he offers the public, membership. Where do you get the loss of understanding before we go forward?
Lisa said:First off...let me apologize for not being around these last few days of discussion. I have not abandoned my thread. :) stupid virus kept me away. probably a good thing. but now time to address a few things:
As far as Christopher's response, I couldn't have responded better myself! Thank you Christopher.
That's exactly it Christopher, Mike has not claimed to be trying represent the entire profession, no one entity can.
I beg to differ. Mike DID claim to be representing our entire profession when he claimed this to be an alliance FOR therapists BY therapists, when what he really means is FOR therapist (of like mind) BY therapists (veterans that have been hand choice by HIM).
To create an alliance that is suppose to be for all of us in a way that, as Mike has claimed, doesn't exit in any other massage organization, should at the very least be a collective, a "spectrum of voices". However the way this is being created it is about Mike and HIS voices.
Christopher is trying to draw AMTA and ABMP into the conversation to split people.
Christopher was NOT the first person in this thread to compare your alliance to the AMTA and ABMP, so please do not interject your personal battle with him, into this discussion. The only one that is looking deceptive right now is you.
The people standing up against this on this site have argued with me on most issues. They don't wish to help they are trying to hinder as most, I think will see. It started out with a picture was not proper and now Christopher is skirting allegations. This is their way.
I for one, have not always argued on this site. You are trying to use your debates with Christopher to now discredit others that are just not buying into your Alliance. It started out with a picture, because you put out a thread about the Alliance and it's website. If you didn't want "feedback" you should have never started the thread. Everyone on this site knows I have a background in graphic design, web sites, and marketing in general. I figured you would WANT that kind of experience and feedback, but instead it was met with hostility. The minute you have a website your immediately in the public eye. A web site shouldn't be hosted until it's ready to withstand the scrutiny of the public and in today's market you need a web site that is professional looking, not something that is just an interim site until things get put in place. But that's how I do things in business.
No one is trying to stop the alliance from forming. And had this been handled correctly and professionally, it could have turned into that many more signing up. At this rate, it will just be another "group" of therapists.
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Permalink Reply by Ravensara Travillian on
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It is ironic that such a debate is taking place on a site called "massageprofessionals", since the response from the MTAA side is anything but professional.
A truly professional organization would reach out to address concerns raised in a civil manner by potential members, rather than accusing the questioners of having trust issues and claiming to read their minds about what their motivations are.
A truly professional organization would take the appearance of conflict of interest seriously, and would take steps to address that perceived or real conflict, rather than attacking the messenger.
A truly professional organization would not be so secretive about its operations, and would not attack people who inquire about that secrecy.
A truly professional organization would respect its potential members enough to take the steps to protect their confidential information from risk of theft, rather than just stating that it cannot be arsed to do so.
Those are just four reasons why I will not be joining this organization. Others have been raised, and left unaddressed, on this thread as well.
Of course, Mike, you are perfectly free to organize and run MTAA as you see fit. But if you are going to treat potential members with perfectly reasonable questions in such an unprofessional way, as well as representing yourself as speaking for all of massage therapy, then I want to go on record publicly as saying you do not speak for my massage therapy.
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