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Have Arrogant / Stubborn LMT's Created the Market for Massage Franchises?
First off let me say that I honestly don't personally care what any other Therapist's charge, nor do I concern myself w/ how well or how much business someone else is generating.
I've been in Healthcare now for over 17yrs, and my view towards things tend to be a little different from the avg professional. I believe that any and all therapy no matter the modality should be available to everyone.
I've seen and heard from other LMT's over time that these Massage Franchises are hurting the profession, either by their reduced rates which arent' actually reduced at all, or by the volume of business they do on a daily basis.
I've often wondered when I travel to more rural areas why their local LMT's charge the National Avg w/ regards to basic rates, aren't things in more run down, poorer regions usually cheaper than lets say in the big cities?!
I relocated to a region a few years ago and got hammered by local LMT's for undercutting the local market, well as I told many of them what I charge is no one elses business, I was constantly referred to as the Massage Envy of my region. So I moved again a few months ago to a larger city and it's littered w/ those Massage Envy's so I took a job based on my curiosity to see what all the hub bub was about, and what their Therapists were like.
Folks there is a place and enough business for all of us to charge what ever it is we feel our time is worth.
These Massage Franchises simply came into being all beacuse IMHO, due to LMT"s not marketing themselves well, and not being available. We are in the "I want it and I want it now " era.
Fact is folks these franchises are no cheaper than the National avg, sure they have gimmicks to lure in the client, but it's the lack of availability and in ability to easily find a therapist that has allowed these franchises to flourish.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gina A. Liccardo on
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Now you can say you've heard of it.
Gina A. Liccardo said:I have seen it. It works that they take the job at the franchise and work longer hours to survive. Yes, they are forced to because they want to continue to do what they love and what they are skilled to do. Instead of working for 6 hours for $40/hr they work an 8 hour day for $20/hr. GET INFORMED. It's obvious that you aren't by your response. I have witnessed it personally. btw I commute two hours more a shift just to get paid what I am worth because I refuse to work for a franchise. Don't speak about something you obviously have no experience with or at least recognize that someone isn't just talking smack to b*tch. This is a reality that you need to look into before you make such uninformed statements.
Relax & Rejuvenate said:WHAT?!?!?!
A "normal paying position" does not generate enough income for a seasoned therapist so they are "forced" (feel free to divulge who is forcing them, I could use some slave labor during holiday season) to work for a franchise, which pays the worst in the industry?
I have never heard of anyone taking a job that pays less than their current job because their current job does not pay enough. How does that work?
Gina A. Liccardo said:Many seasoned therapists have been forced to work for a franchise because they couldn't survive in a normal paying position.
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Permalink Reply by Relax & Rejuvenate on
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I have heard a lot of idiotic things in my life, but you have put that one close to the top of the list.
What you have seen is people making choices in their lives, not people being FORCED to do things against their will. They do it because the LOVE It, according to you. Did ME FORCE them to LOVE massage in order to enslave them?
Talk about ill-informed. Who held a gun to their head to force them to take the job? What other non-massage jobs that pay better were they forced to give up in order to work at ME? Who forced them not to start their own practice and charge what they think they are worth?
The answer is NO ONE. They are human beings, and have free will. Why is it that so many MTs who think evil employers force MTs to work for them belittle their fellow MTs by thinking they have no free will, yet are quick to defend MTs who try to take clients from one practice to another on the basis that the clients have free will and freedom of choice? Are MTs not be trusted with free will?
If someone could work 6 hours a day for $40 an hour they would. But they can't so they don't.
That is the logical equivalent of doing one hour of work for $240 instead of 6 a day at $40 per. But these jobs don't exist!
Whose fault is it that they don't exist? Massage Envy's? Why isn't it YOUR responsibility to plunk down $500K of borrowed money to create jobs for MTs that you define as good paying? Why aren't you the villain for shirking your responsibility to your fellow therapist by FORCING them to go to ME instead of working for you and being paid a princely sum?
Put your money where you mouth and socialistic ideas are. Start your own massage business, pay them what you think you should pay them and live YOUR life YOUR way and let others run theirs -- and their business their way.
You have demonstrated you have no clue what it takes to run a business, are not willing to spend a penny of your own money creating better working conditions for MTs by hiring one yourself and think MTs are idiotic robots doing what ME forces them to do.
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Permalink Reply by Therese Schwartz on
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R&R - there have been a lot of good posts on this website. For me, this is one of the absolute best. Thanks! You have clearly stated what I was thinking but didn't have time today to type up.
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How do you know what I do? You're irrational. I do own a business and I know what it takes to run one and I do hire therapists and I do pay them what they are worth because I charge what massage is worth. That is the answer it is very simple and it is very obvious that you are working for or own a franchise. I wonder if you are even a licensed massage therapist. ARE YOU A MASSAGE THERAPIST? If you aren't then, you shouldn't comment here because you aren't qualified since you don't know what it's like to do the work.
Relax & Rejuvenate said:I have heard a lot of idiotic things in my life, but you have put that one close to the top of the list.
What you have seen is people making choices in their lives, not people being FORCED to do things against their will. They do it because the LOVE It, according to you. Did ME FORCE them to LOVE massage in order to enslave them?
Talk about ill-informed. Who held a gun to their head to force them to take the job? What other non-massage jobs that pay better were they forced to give up in order to work at ME? Who forced them not to start their own practice and charge what they think they are worth?
The answer is NO ONE. They are human beings, and have free will. Why is it that so many MTs who think evil employers force MTs to work for them belittle their fellow MTs by thinking they have no free will, yet are quick to defend MTs who try to take clients from one practice to another on the basis that the clients have free will and freedom of choice? Are MTs not be trusted with free will?
If someone could work 6 hours a day for $40 an hour they would. But they can't so they don't.
That is the logical equivalent of doing one hour of work for $240 instead of 6 a day at $40 per. But these jobs don't exist!
Whose fault is it that they don't exist? Massage Envy's? Why isn't it YOUR responsibility to plunk down $500K of borrowed money to create jobs for MTs that you define as good paying? Why aren't you the villain for shirking your responsibility to your fellow therapist by FORCING them to go to ME instead of working for you and being paid a princely sum?
Put your money where you mouth and socialistic ideas are. Start your own massage business, pay them what you think you should pay them and live YOUR life YOUR way and let others run theirs -- and their business their way.
You have demonstrated you have no clue what it takes to run a business, are not willing to spend a penny of your own money creating better working conditions for MTs by hiring one yourself and think MTs are idiotic robots doing what ME forces them to do.
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It's interesting Chance how you write, "in the end it's all about the benji's to these people, and I understand w/ out making money they'd not be in business," concerning the franchise owner but yet you can't understand why an LMT would needs to make more an hour to pay their bills. I would call that a double standard and again would make it hard to understand why you would think an LMT arrogant for demanding a base pay of at least $30/hr from an employer.
Chance Ryan said:Yeah since I've started working there the staff are always tired, irratable and praying that their next client doesn't come in, the best thing about working at a place like this is it helps me see just how to not run the places I will be opening over the next few years.
While like you I like the busines model to some extent, I don't like the fact that the owners of these branches are not medical, nor are they in it for the idea to help others. I found it funny when interviewing w/ one of the owners and he told me that he's not like all the other owners he cares, yet when I met and spoke to his staff they said he was all about the coin, then I interview w/ another sites owner and he basically reads me the same act, I even interrupted him and quipped do you guys have a manual you read from, in the end it's all about the benji's to these people, and I understand w/ out making money they'd not be in business, but to me there is a way to run things and a way not to.
Lisa said:I'll bite cause I'm in the mood... :)
First off...my area's average price for massage is about $65. I charge $45 and for some, an exclusive rate of $35. Is that undercutting other therapists? NO. I charge what I charge based on MY individual parameters. I work out of my home so I have no overhead. My practice is still relatively new, and I am still gaining knowledge through CEUs. I SHOULDN'T be charging as much as a person who's had 10 years of experience (and a bigger toolbox) or someone that has to pay rent and utilities. THAT's what business is all about. When I'm ready to increase my prices will be based on if I have something new to bring to my customers and if my overhead changes. PERIOD.
As for the ME's of the world. I view them as being both positive and negative on our profession. With their "intro" low rate, and their immense resources for marketing, they have broadened our prospective clientele...making "massage" a more "common" service among society. Where before massage was only thought of for the rich, ME's have made it for the working man. That's a GOOD thing for all MTs. What I don't like about ME's and the likes, is that they use the "intro" just as a bait and switch to get clients in. They work off the same notion as gyms...knowing that the monthly membership fee will outlast the actual sessions for most people. And that part I don't like. I also don't like that they go through MANY MTs because most of them overwork MTs and under serve our clients. I have had several clients come to me because they were dissatisfied with ME and since my rates are around the same as their "intro" rate, clients come to me and are wow'd by the experience difference. That's a marketing plus for me.
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This is such brilliant thinking!
Einstein was a clerk in a patent office, but it did not stop him from expressing his views on physics -- by your thinking he just should have kept his ideas to himself.
I love how people who think the world of "embracing diversity" are loathe to embrace any diversity of thought!
Gina A. Liccardo said:I wonder if you are even a licensed massage therapist. ARE YOU A MASSAGE THERAPIST? If you aren't then, you shouldn't comment here because you aren't qualified since you don't know what it's like to do the work.
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What exactly is so brilliant about doing what every corporate model has done for the past century? Undercut the pay of the worker, decreased the value of a service, offer substandard service for a low price and then claim to be giving someone more than they actually are by exploiting a licensed professional and duping the public. Am I supposed to believe that you put down 500k to give LMTs a job? You're full of it. Please save your 40 acres and a mule speech for the naive not the educated. I'm open to hearing ideas but if you are going to throw some out there try and be a little more authentic and original. I'm sorry but the corporate franchise can't be compared to Albert Einstein nor any of your comments.
btw now who is side stepping the question, you never answered my question, ARE YOU A LICENSED MASSAGE THERAPIST?
Relax & Rejuvenate said:This is such brilliant thinking!
Einstein was a clerk in a patent office, but it did not stop him from expressing his views on physics -- by your thinking he just should have kept his ideas to himself.
I love how people who think the world of "embracing diversity" are loathe to embrace any diversity of thought!
Gina A. Liccardo said:I wonder if you are even a licensed massage therapist. ARE YOU A MASSAGE THERAPIST? If you aren't then, you shouldn't comment here because you aren't qualified since you don't know what it's like to do the work.
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Permalink Reply by Maryshka on
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What Gina's trying to say, I think, is that they (MTs) love what they do, not necessarily love the rate of pay that franchise MTs (paramedical professionals) earn compared to MTs (also paramedical professionals) earn outside of the franchises.
Closely similar things happening with the Veterinary Centers of America -- a corporate entity with a similar business model. Service suffers at the expense of generating revenue (add-ons, etc.). Bottom line becomes more important than quality care and satisfied customers and employees.
Rabid dogs don't always wear fur coats and one hiney is as good as another. Perhaps Gina's the proverbial canary in the coal mine.
Relax & Rejuvenate said:I have heard a lot of idiotic things in my life, but you have put that one close to the top of the list.
What you have seen is people making choices in their lives, not people being FORCED to do things against their will. They do it because the LOVE It, according to you. Did ME FORCE them to LOVE massage in order to enslave them?
Talk about ill-informed. Who held a gun to their head to force them to take the job? What other non-massage jobs that pay better were they forced to give up in order to work at ME? Who forced them not to start their own practice and charge what they think they are worth?
The answer is NO ONE. They are human beings, and have free will. Why is it that so many MTs who think evil employers force MTs to work for them belittle their fellow MTs by thinking they have no free will, yet are quick to defend MTs who try to take clients from one practice to another on the basis that the clients have free will and freedom of choice? Are MTs not be trusted with free will?
If someone could work 6 hours a day for $40 an hour they would. But they can't so they don't.
That is the logical equivalent of doing one hour of work for $240 instead of 6 a day at $40 per. But these jobs don't exist!
Whose fault is it that they don't exist? Massage Envy's? Why isn't it YOUR responsibility to plunk down $500K of borrowed money to create jobs for MTs that you define as good paying? Why aren't you the villain for shirking your responsibility to your fellow therapist by FORCING them to go to ME instead of working for you and being paid a princely sum?
Put your money where you mouth and socialistic ideas are. Start your own massage business, pay them what you think you should pay them and live YOUR life YOUR way and let others run theirs -- and their business their way.
You have demonstrated you have no clue what it takes to run a business, are not willing to spend a penny of your own money creating better working conditions for MTs by hiring one yourself and think MTs are idiotic robots doing what ME forces them to do.
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What Gina is trying to say is nothing but a bunch of blathering
And No, I am not a licensed MT and have no intention of ever being one, which has nothing to do with anything about this discussion. Do you have to have your child murdered to have an opinion on what happened at SHES? Apparently you do in Gina's world -- if you have not lived the life, keep your trap shut.
Here is the fallacy of the anti-capitalist diatribes -- corporations are greedy AND corporations are stupid.
It is really, really hard to be both. If you are truly greedy, you know that you can't put out a crappy product or piss off your customers because that model is not sustainable -- even in the short term and DOES NOT result in sufficient profits to satisfy the need for greed of capitalists.
if you are stupid, you won't ever make money.
You can be stupid and broke, and still be greedy but never make it.
You can be smart/talented and greedy or smart and not greedy and make a killing.
Gina is correct. I did not invest $500k to give MTs a job. I invested $500k in hopes of making many, many many times that. Another fallacy of the anti-capitalists -- businesses are not created to create jobs. Businesses are created to create profits by filling a need for a good or service. Jobs are created as a CONSEQUENCE of a business being successful, not the other way around.
But the fact remains the same, Gina is not willing or able to create JOBS -- not contract work -- meaningful jobs, so by her logic she has no business talking on a subject in which she has ZERO experience or first hand knowledge.
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If you aren't a licensed massage therapist, why are you even here? This is a website for us. The trut is is that you think that the only way to run your business is like a text book math equation that you learned in your business studies. Running a successful business equates to more than the bottomline. It's not enough just to make a profit.
You know nothing about what our profession entails; I pay my therapist 40-50% of the cost of service. The minimum hour service is $75/hr. So you do the math. There are plenty of businesses that treat their therapist well and pay them well while charging an acceptable price for the service. How successful and creative are you in your field if you aren't even capable of making a profit without exploiting your workers? Maybe you need to reassess what success really is because your idea of it makes you come off like a know it all, greedy and not very wise business owner who is disconnected from the services that you sell and your service providers.
Your ingenuity in marketing can't be very good. You probably can't come up with a great marketing plan because you know nothing about the service you are offering. All you know how to do is pull out your calculator and tabulate how you can make a buck.
I'm sorry that you can't figure out how to run your business in an ethical way that presents a win win situation for all. The only thing I can deduct is that you aren't very competent in your field even with your MBA.
Last but not least telling it like it is and telling you what you dont' want to hear isn't blathering. Sorry you can't handle the truth but I have to go now I have bigger fish to fry, like informing others about businesses like yours and how to avoid them.
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Gina A. Liccardo said:If you aren't a licensed massage therapist, why are you even here? This is a website for us.
How delightfully elitist of you. Feel free to ask the board administrators to block me from participating. I am sure your fellow MTs will learn eons more from you than the could from a different perspective.
Gina A. Liccardo said:
Running a successful business equates to more than the bottomline. It's not enough just to make a profit.
Interesting concept. Going bankrupt can mean you are a successful business. Anyone here who started their own business NOT interested in a profit? Would love to see a show of cyber hands of business owners who would think their business was a sucess if they posted a loss each year.
Gina A. Liccardo said:
I pay my therapist 40-50% of the cost of service. The minimum hour service is $75/hr. So you do the math.
Maybe your math is different than mine -- likelly since you think business success can be achieved without turning a profit -- but where I learned math (and Mr. Gates' excel program confirmed for me) 40 -50% of $75 is only $30 - $37.50 per hour. What a slave driver you are! And that is for independent contract work (since Liccardo Enterprises is not registered with the NYS Worker's Compensation Board as having current WC insurance for its employees, I can only assume you use ICs and not employees, because lord knows such a sanctimonious person as yourself would never leave an MT unprotected by their legal right to workers compensation coverage).
Now you try doing some math -- We pay our EMPLOYEES (not our contractors) $45 on a $125 massage. That is a measely 36% compared to your lofty pay rate of 40 - 50%.
Another call for a show of hands -- how many MTs would rather
1) Be an IC and get paid $30 - $37.50 for an hour massage, AND have to pay 100% of your FICA & FUTA taxes, which is 13.7%, leaving you a NET of $25.95 - $32.44 per massage before paying income tax. And let's not forget, if Gina is running her business legally, ICs CANNOT be provided with tools and materials, so you have to provide your own massage table, linens and products, or pay Gina the privilege of using hers. And what kind of tips do you make on a $75 massage...$15, maybe, which after your 100% of FICA & FUTA you net $12.98.
OR
2) Work for an awful ogre who dares to employ MTs while not being one himself who will pay you $45 for the same massage and who also pays HALF of your FICA and FUTA taxes, leaving you with a NET of $41.99 per massage. Plus our tips average $25 on the basic service, and since we don't charge MTs for CC processing charges AND pay 1.2 the FICA/FUTA burden, your net on an average tip is $23.32, almost 2x the tip your fellow MT would help you earn. Oh, and let's not forget 100% of all products, equipment and supplies are provided for you, you are covered by WC insurance and state disability insurance, and can receive health insurance, paid vacation and earn 10% on all products you sell.
Gina A. Liccardo said:
There are plenty of businesses that treat their therapist well and pay them well while charging an acceptable price for the service.
It appears you are not one of them. I pay my therapists -- who I make employees -- an average of over 30% more than you pay your independent contracts for the same hour of massage.
So how is paying my employees 30% MORE than you pay your contractors for the same massage make you benevolent and me and exploiter of the massaging proletariat?
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You're the typical business person who goes around preaching to someone about how educated you are and your MBA and then turns around and calls someone an "ass" on a public forum like you just did in the other thread. We don't need people like you with not ethics or decorum in our community.
You have no professionalism, control and you don't set an example that anyone should follow. If you don't want to hear the truth abou the profession of massage and what it entails why are you here pretell? To talk about how smart you are and all your 7 years of education.
Only think people will learn from you is how to con people into believing you are treating them well when you are exploiting them for your own means.
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