massage and bodywork professionals
a community of practitioners
Needing advice from any who have experience working with fibromyalgia clients
I have a new client who has fairly severe firbomyalgia. Most of her pain is in her calves, just above her knee, her hands, and upper back.
I've just completed the second session. I did tell her (based on what I've read) that she may feel more pain after the first few sessions, but that it would lessen and help overall after many more sessions.
The site I went to recommended starting out twice a week. I've been using very gentle swedish massage, along with myofascial release.
She experiences pain, not during the massage, but immediately afterward. Then it gets better, and then worse again. I'm not sure if this is normal or not. It's hard to find concrete details on what to expect.
Can anyone suggest a good site on firbo that is from a massage perspective? Or share your own experiences with me?
For the second session I tried working on each area less, in case I spent too much time there and thus, aggravated the muscles.
I appreciate any advice you all have to give me. ~ Jennifer Baker LMT
Views: 1535
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Wilson Jordan on
-
don't know if the chart was meant for me or not but it goes to prove my point, which is there is too much adrenal activity to ignore. So far I haven't gotten anything from you to change my question to you. If FM is not casual and we treat FM then what are we not treating, simply because we don't know. Yes, I advocate a wide spectrum of knowledge but only in application not in theory since the body does not respond to theory. Going back to that statement the body is a connected unit and all things work in unison for good or bad, the body can do no other. There are always a lot of input factors involved and there are specific factors that show up more regularly than others. Inflammation and tightness are the main one's. In all cases one if not both are present but both are also triggered elsewhere than just by a Trigger Point, which forms along the way.
-
Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
-
The chart was ment for whoever is following thi thread. It does back up what you are saying. But it also backs up what I'm saying. And one can easily argue that an over reactive endocrine system is a symptom of a very nocioceptive or a series trigger points. Pain changes things. Makes the entire body/mind go into a heightened state agitation, fight or flight ,endocrin system and all. Remove the source of the agrivation ( trigger point ). The endocrine system calms down. Not arguing with anyone. It's like what came first? The chicken or the egg? Lol
-
-
The body came first. To have an over active endocrine system will require more than TP'S which BTW don't show up until after the endocrine system has been overactive. That put numerical order to the stages of events. The TP's as you pointed out exacerbates what is already going. This same kind of thing is seen with MS. It is not a laxidazical matter of which came first but knowing what the body does and understanding the body. This is not about being a doctor or anything more than a Bodyworker. It seems to me that since that is what we are working on then it is best to know as much about it as possible, based somewhat on theory but it is that experiential stuff that remains everlasting. The source of the aggravation can't be the TP because it too showed up from somewhere because of something.
I agree pain does change things but pain primarily exacerbates what is already there not change what is there. Exacerbation pain is real but it is also a shadow to what is really there. But because it is so intense the shadow is often mistaken for the cause as in FM. But to be clear an overactive Endocrine system can not react to a series or multitude of TP's. It is about finding out how to calm the Endocrine system -- instead we call its symptoms. This is the way of West. Unfortunately, such thinking permeates our knowledge books and fail to take us into understanding how to connect the dots. Fixing it is our purpose.
-
-
"I've always been curious what method/instrument Eunice Ingham used to discover what spot of the foot affects the adrenals, etc." She and all others massacred what the Asians had put together thousands of years ago. Reflexology chart were the final meeting ground from many of meridians the reflex to the organ via the meridian. All the charts work to a certain extent at least to put you in the general vicinity. Palpation is still required with contact with the organ. And really it is still the meridian line that is being directly effected which alters the tissue make.
-
Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on
-
Wilson, I use textbooks and videos and seminars merely as a starting point, neither believing nor disbelieving till I confirm or deny it for myself, working in my own space. That some scientist says that reflexology is bunk doesn't affect my opinions either for or against. My opinion of reflexology, Therapeutic Touch, etc is based on my own experience with them...and commonsense. Commonsense alone tells me that 90% of what is claimed for Eastern modalities is pure BS. Yet, despite my misgivings, I work the Shiatsu points corresponding to the sense of hearing on myself every day; so far it hasn't helped my hearing even a little bit, but what the hell, it takes very little time and certainly doesn't do any harm. For the same reasons, when working a client's feet, I employ reflexology as well as massage.
Summing up, I form my opinions based on my own personal experience and my interpretation of studies I have undertaken.
Wilson Jordan said:you may find the statement, "But that is beside the point. You claimed that the adrenal system somehow orders the immune system to shut down. And, frankly, I find that statement to be asinine." Asinine as you say but then that would make Oriental medicine asinine. I find that to be typical of Western arrogance. There is much that we don't know but we hold that we know it all but this country is low in the ranking of "medical intelligence" great for triage and trauma but lousy for ongoing and preventive care. Well massage grew up inside of that model; what it taught as well as didn't teach. I find you to be a thorough example of that, which by all means makes sense. Hence someone like me would not make sense to you but I do understand what you are saying as well as how to do it. But the same is not reciprocated but you have comment without experiencing what I am say. So, the context is theoretical. And we both know theory heals nothing.
Regardless I enjoy the dialogue and am looking for a starting that we can meet and go either deeper or outward we mutual learning, sharing and experimenting. My foundation is the same as yours from "88". I have no idea when you began your experience into massage.
The bottom line is as you stated, "relieving the pain" regardless, I think, how it is done without "causing harm" always works. You may not agree with what I am saying but a book will not prove me wrong because I too can find a book that will prove me right. Now which book is right and which book is wrong. Or is it more about the content of the each book. The Western content is very rigid and rules out a lot that it does not understand. Massage as I said grew up inside of such a frame. Herein I believe lies the appearing challenge we are having in connecting.
-
-
Footwork has always been done, true. But Eunice Ingham codified Reflexology as it is now taught, even in Japan-- she invented the map. What was being done in China and Japan and Thailand is not remotely similar to what is being done today. ... in ANY of the Western versions of "Eastern" modalities.
Regarding the meridians. Chinese Tui Na was the basis of Japanese Shiatsu. Tui Na practitioners were releasing trigger points (referred to by them as "energy blockages" because they lacked microscopes, etc) and employing "Swedish" massage strokes 7,000 years ago. Their practitioners followed the pain. Japan, being a highly organized society, trapped themselves by insisting that these energy flows had to follow specific lines which they called meridians. I don't hesitate to say that notion is nonsense. Nonsense that pressure applied to a Shiatsu point in the ankle can cause a miscarriage or premature birth. Nonsense that pressing a point on the medial side of wrist can cause heart rate to slow and pressure on the other will speed it up again.
Use them if it pleases you to do so: I choose not to. but will provide Shiatsu or TT or Reflexology if the client requests.
Wilson Jordan said:"I've always been curious what method/instrument Eunice Ingham used to discover what spot of the foot affects the adrenals, etc." She and all others massacred what the Asians had put together thousands of years ago. Reflexology chart were the final meeting ground from many of meridians the reflex to the organ via the meridian. All the charts work to a certain extent at least to put you in the general vicinity. Palpation is still required with contact with the organ. And really it is still the meridian line that is being directly effected which alters the tissue make.
-
-
Your application has much drama to it. Rather or not one touch can do such things I personally do not know and have never heard such stories, but I have heard and seen when direct pressure is applied and maintained for an extensive period of time; or at least it looks from the outside that such is being done. However there is much more to it that is not so easily observable. Understanding how to run the electro-magnetic field, or for a better term energy that creates observable results in the tissue, organs and joint structures is impressive regardless of technique.
We here have learned using the techniques and the information as we have put it together; but we both agree that all such info is far older than 400 yrs. I think what we are addressing to get back on key is "how to fix it?" Is that correct. Regardless of technique how to resolve the issue or at least maintain it from flaring. You have a value for the information you have I would like to say based on your comments about reflex, adrenals, and inflammation that they are as archai as many of the techniques being used to addressed them. If one is taught to use a machette from the beginning then the machette become their tool of choice out of "what they know as well as what they do not know." That is the difference in what we are speaking about.
-
-
I don't know. After thirty years of doing this kind of work, I'm able to help a high percentage of the people I'm working on in a dramatic way, just by eliminating trigger points. Just because something comes from the east or from ancient times doesn't mean it better then modern or western methods. Take the UFC fighting for example. No aikido master would stand a chance. It's modern jujitsu, western wrestling and punching ground and pound techniques. Wilson, not saying you don't know what you are doing. You have confidence and experience . But I'm very effective at what I'm Doing too .Learning never stops, I know that. . But it sounds like it has stopped for you already.
- Attachments:
-
-
image.jpg, 263 KB
-
-
-
Picking and choosing what portions of energy modalities to believe is your prerogative. Mine to disbelieve your mythology based methodologies. We are not going to reach any common ground, Wilson. You believe in your superiority, and therefore will continue to talk down to other LMTs. The difference in you and I, I am not willing to set aside critical thinking and buy into your theories, such as this one: A serious disorder like fibromyalgia can be cured by pressing Ingham's adrenal point in the foot, or dangerously palpating the kidneys, arguably the most vulnerable organ in the body.
-
-
Your exaggerations make is sound like you have understood what I have been talking about. And, to think that lying your hands in the area (region) where the Kidneys and Adrenals are located (but only on the surface) can cause harm to either organ is prehistoric paranoia based on and absence of palpatory skills not endangerments.
When we are so locked into model and it is only through that model that we understand the body. The fact is the body is beyond any model of it that humans have thus realized. Belief might help but it certainly will not cure through hands on but maybe it will, that is not my call. Critical thinking, is also westernized fortitude of "right-ness" the human body is beyond whatever thoughts we have thus far realized; The machine taking itself apart. Touch and feel which are the arts we share is the guide, not books. Books can identify but books cannot feel that is crucial because to rely upon what they say versus understanding what our hands already know. The caveat is "what we know" may invite or prohibit and at the time one has no way of knowing when similarity cannot be found. Because one is for the sure the body is the same, everywhere. Thus what we are addressing or discussing will apply anywhere. I am saying to you that you don't understand what I mean nor its implications to "drain" and or balance the adrenals & Kidneys. Without such a reference point how could you possible understand what I'm saying. The trick is here I get that you believe you do and I know you don't. I am not trying to teach you anything but engage you in rationale processes in bodywork those that are familiar as well as those that are foreign. The exchange of information is not an idle pursuit. Either we back or write another time because right now I'm saying you did not understand what I was saying and that you believe you do. I did understand what you were saying, whether or not you felt that way, I'm open to hear.
-
-
It has been proven on a number of levels that trigger points are created in muscles due to micro injuries within muscles or fascia or--within the muscle-- the spindles or the golgi tendon organ in the tendon. A trigger point is not a reaction to endocrine imbalance. Trigger points exist in, and are treated in, muscle tissue due to interactions with the outside world.
The trigger point "showed up because of something", sure enough. The something is emotional stress, hyper-extension or hyper-exertion of the muscle that develops the trigger. Or, perhaps you know of a rule that establishes that endocrine problem in, say, adrenals results in FM, and a problem with pancreas creates trigger points in, say, the bicep?Absolutely factual that lots of health disorders caused by either over or under production of one or more endocrine glands. Myofascial trigger points are highly unlikely to be one of them, however.
Wilson Jordan said:The body came first. To have an over active endocrine system will require more than TP'S which BTW don't show up until after the endocrine system has been overactive. That put numerical order to the stages of events. The TP's as you pointed out exacerbates what is already going. This same kind of thing is seen with MS. It is not a laxidazical matter of which came first but knowing what the body does and understanding the body. This is not about being a doctor or anything more than a Bodyworker. It seems to me that since that is what we are working on then it is best to know as much about it as possible, based somewhat on theory but it is that experiential stuff that remains everlasting. The source of the aggravation can't be the TP because it too showed up from somewhere because of something.
I agree pain does change things but pain primarily exacerbates what is already there not change what is there. Exacerbation pain is real but it is also a shadow to what is really there. But because it is so intense the shadow is often mistaken for the cause as in FM. But to be clear an overactive Endocrine system can not react to a series or multitude of TP's. It is about finding out how to calm the Endocrine system -- instead we call its symptoms. This is the way of West. Unfortunately, such thinking permeates our knowledge books and fail to take us into understanding how to connect the dots. Fixing it is our purpose.
-
-
I sit and say! I have a few years fewer than you; sounds like maybe I've had more breaks in between then you not that it matters but time frame we're around the same age. And what you are talking I know how to do and many years did do. What makes this conversation slanted in a reverse sort of what is that the same application can not be applied to you regarding knowing how to do what I'm talking about. I say this because you have not understood what I've been saying regarding the body as a system, with numerous seemingly independent units; but reality disproves that. Nice testimonial! I have no idea why you say, my learning has stopped, having learned how to learning means learning never stops for me, in many areas. Discussion of bodywork versus diagnosis I admit I have not done with others, since my formalize teaching days. That was in Kinesiology. So, as you see I too am no dummy but have presented what read as the space between the lines in this post.
© 2024 Created by ABMP.
Powered by
