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Response to "Knot in a muscle' post
Mr. Gordon J. Wallis in his post “Knot in a muscle’ raised very important topic and it seems that members expressed variety of opinions. Considering the importance of the subject I decided to open separate discussion and put everything in the scientific perspective.
There are two types of 'knots' you may experience in your practice.
First is called hypertonus and it is usually associated with active trigger point(s). The correctly used trigger point therapy protocol will be able to completely eliminate this abnormality. The second type of the 'knots' is called myogelosis and it is irreversible degeneration of the muscle fibers you feel like 'marbles' in the tissue.
The core of myogelosis will stay with your clients for the rest of the life if it is already formed. However by itself it is usually painless if there is no direct pressure applied to it. At the same time uncontrolled myogelosis is very painful and responsible for a lot of tension because core is direct cause of the neighboring hypertonuses to form around it. This drives your clients crazy.
By the way incorrectly applied Trigger Point Therapy in the form of senseless application of pressure without finding the Entrance into the Trigger Point, using Compass Technique, Stop and Go Approach etc. is directly responsible for the excessive damage of the muscle fibers in the area of hypertonus and later formation of the myogelosis there.
If readers would like to learn how hypertonus, trigger point and myogelosis form, how to differentiate and diagnose them as well as how to treat them correctly using scientifically sounded protocol of Trigger Point Therapy please read our three part article on Trigger Point Therapy in
March/April: http://scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/0903/toc.aspx
May/June: http://scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/0905/toc.aspx
July/August: http://scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/0907/toc.aspx
2009 issues of Journal of Massage Science. This article will answer ALL of your questions in every detail.
If you read the article and need any clarifications you may post your questions here and I will be happy to answer them.
Sincerely Dr. Ross Turchaninov
Views: 7220
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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Hi Gordon.
the reason why I am replying to your post with delay is because I was a bit disappointed that you are stopping participating at this discussion, and leaving with not good feelings.really I was a bit surprised and in the beginning did not know how to reply.now I just realized that it will be wrong not to reply. A few times I stated that my intuition telling me that you capable to deliver results. I just tried not to allow you to look for any "excuses"in order to explain your capabilities, but to say I am capable to deliver results.this is good enough, responsible and honest way to share your experiences with others.I also expressed my strong opinion in regards of ridiculous claims. One could say that will be a right way, to write my opinions on wrong terminology privately to you.No. This will be wrong and by all means. Because you made all these statements at this professional discussion,and other less experience practitioners could repeat all these damaging stuff. And it is damaging, because our future is in recognition by medical society and we should sound not ridiculous, otherwise health practitioners will be scared to endorse our treatments and to reffer patience to us,and even in cases when one can deliver good results. I passionately love our craft and therefore when decided to participate in professional discussion cannot and don't want to play" extra nice person"and not to comment on something that absolutely wrong and damaging. I know, you being the veteran in our fields sharing with me and others love to massage therefore hoping that you will understand why I have talked directly and addressed all in the way I did.
Long-ago I had an opportunity to present to young doctors ,residence at family practice program. We discussed trigger point therapy. all went very well. fellows expressed a lot of interest to learn on mechanical pains as well on role of medical massage in treating it.When comed time I presented morphology of trigger point and used expression:" Lack of blood supply".suddenly I paid attention that guys lost interest to listen to me. Lucky I that one of the doctors was also a Russian speaking, and he said to me :"Boris your translation is direct and in this case Lack of blood supply means no blood supply, and most likely you meant insufficiency of blood supply."
My goodness until day of today I'm very thankful that this Dr.did correct me and on front of 50 people.Lack of money will mean that not enough money, but in case if we will use it to describe insufficiency of blood supply health care professionals will disregard us.I hope that you will understand me and will not hold hard feelings.we talking about occupation that we know is not a remedy to all diseases but possessing extreme healing power and our duty is to promote this wonderful, powerful methodology including by talking in acceptable not damaging language.if one getting good results by using different methods of treatment one should be proud and feel blessed and shouldn't look for some methods' "ridiculous theory" in order to "explain" his/her capability to help others. Just deliver results and this is what massage therapy is about. I hope we will stay in touch.
Best wishes.Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:
Well Im not as smart as you guys...and I dont know how to speak in a professional language like Boris ,as he stated above... Anyway, Im going to continue using my uncouth, non scientific ways of trigger point theory and removal...You guys enjoy chatting ....Peace... Im out of here. PS- ...http://www.britishsportstherapy.com/.. Boris..thats Soft Tissue Release..
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Hi Therese.
as you requested, I'm letting you know that my 12 steps abdominal/ visceral massage footage is ready for a review.
FREE 12 steps abdominal visceral massage training By Boris Prilutsky.
Dear friends.
Stress and resulting stasis of venous blood in abdominal cavity causes multiple abnormalities such as Chron’s disease, gastric ulcers, gastro intestinal track diseases, colitis, constipation, irregularity and insufficiency of bowel movement, diverticulitis, acid reflux diseases and irritable bowel syndrome but also not limited to producing severe lower back pain. In many cases if not to incorporate abdominal mobilizations it difficult to help people who is suffering from lower back pains, because lower back region dysfunction as well abdominal cavity disorders ,both can trigger this pains. Today these dysfunctions became massive phenomenon.
Because Abdominal/visceral massage is the most powerful methodology in addressing venous blood stasis and reducing lymphedema, I have decided to share my knowledge in abdominal visceral massage protocols. I propose links to twelve steps hands on each step separately. I hope you would like these videos and, most importantly, be able to learn from it. I highly recommend review each step numerous times.
You are welcome ask questions, post comments and provide constructive criticism.
Best Wishes,
Boris Prilutsky
Abdominal/Visceral Massage - Introduction
Abdominal/Visceral Massage - Importance
Abdominal Visceral Massage - Planning, Preparation & Step 1
Abdominal/Visceral Massage - Step 2
Abdominal/Visceral Massage Steps 3 and 4
Abdominal/Visceral Massage Steps 5 and 6
Abdominal Visceral Massage Steps 7, 8 and 9
Abdominal/Visceral Massage Steps 10, 11 and 12
Therese Schwartz said:Boris, my new massage therapist has some of your DVD's and she really likes them! I have clients with low back pain so your upcoming article sounds really interesting!
Thanks for your comments.
At a personal level, I have gotten too caught up in all this and need to back off from reading the forum so often. It's become an interference and a distraction from my work and I'm re-prioritizing things. I will still check in weekly to see what I can learn!
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Permalink Reply by Vlad on
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Hi Boris,
Can you give references to show how statis of venous blood can cause each of these conditions:
Stress and resulting stasis of venous blood in abdominal cavity causes multiple abnormalities such as Chron’s disease, gastric ulcers, gastro intestinal track diseases, colitis, constipation, irregularity and insufficiency of bowel movement, diverticulitis, acid reflux diseases and irritable bowel syndrome but also not limited to producing severe lower back pain.
Thanks.
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Hi Vlad.
Because of Vlad/Christopher discussions history, when you always trying to distract topic of discussion, I promise to extend my answer but in this particular case and only in this case ,you will have first to answer on my questions:
- If no reference available, should we consider as a acceptable , not dangerous and good clinical material that presented on my abdominal /visceral massage lessons ?
- . If we shouldn't consider it as a clinical protocol ,what is misleading, nonscientific data that I proposed in my lessons. Please be specific.
- Would-be results achieved, such as less abdominal discomfort, less abdominal including lower back region pressure , improvement in breathing if one will receive treatment that I am proposing? I mean ,clinical treatment outcome with no having reference available will be achieved or not ? Just yes or no.
4. Is Chron’s disease, most of gastro intestinal track diseases, colitis, constipation, irregularity and insufficiency of bowel movement, diverticulitis, acid reflux diseases and irritable bowel syndrome is an inflammatory diseases? Yes or no.
5. Is massage therapy most effective treatment in achieving reduction/normalization of muscular tone both within the skeletal muscles as well smooth muscles? Yes or no.
6. Is massage therapy most effective in increasing blood supply to the tissue? Yes or no.
7. Is non- septic inflammation is a way human body fighting insufficiency of arterial blood supply.? Yes or no
8. is massage mechanical factor most powerful in acceleration of venous blood drainage? Yes or no.
9. Is acceleration of venous blood drainage supporting arterial blood supply to the tissue. Yes or no.
10. Will restoration of compromise amount of blood supply contribute to healing process in cases of inflammatory diseases? Yes or no.
11. Possible that inflammatory condition within abdominals, will produce lower back pain? Yes or no.
For people who are well trained clinicians is clear that stress causing increase in muscular resting tone. This is probably massage school students learning during first lessons.
Muscles higher tone always causing vascular constriction which decreasing arterial blood supply as well causing venous stasis. Everyone knows that this condition including the lymphedemas/swelling is a physical expression of inflammation. Just no need to repeat all this stuff because I did present it at my clips.
If you will answer on my questions I promise reference. I apologize to everyone for not answering directly to Vlad but offering conditions.A.reference not really important.B. This is exemption. Because always Christopher/Vlad tried to distract practical discussion, including disregarding tremendous amount of work that one investing in writing the article or producing video material. Challenging is okay. But challenge means to disagree with presented material, to say why material is not correct, and to offer information that is correct, or the best to stay on front of the camera and to propose hands on techniques including explanations.
Vlad Christopher whoever you are ,Reference do not producing results. Correctly applied massage protocols producing results. Answer on my questions and I will provide what you asked/reference. Otherwise don't bother.
Vlad said:
Hi Boris,
Can you give references to show how statis of venous blood can cause each of these conditions:
Stress and resulting stasis of venous blood in abdominal cavity causes multiple abnormalities such as Chron’s disease, gastric ulcers, gastro intestinal track diseases, colitis, constipation, irregularity and insufficiency of bowel movement, diverticulitis, acid reflux diseases and irritable bowel syndrome but also not limited to producing severe lower back pain.
Thanks.
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Hey man, I wasn't asking for an exam. I was just asking a simple question on books/references/research papers for claims that you're making.
I'm not Christopher, by the way. I'm just an inquiring massage therapist who would like to know where you have got your information. I have 2 of those conditions you mentioned and I have never heard of statis of venous blood flow being the cause of either one. If you're saying that they're a result of inflammation, then that needs clarification (and also references). Also, for one of the conditions above, my doctor (who is a specialist) has said that he doesn't know what causes it exactly. Am I to presume that you know more than he?
I kind of like it when people tell me they don't know something, though. But maybe I'm weird.
I don't intend on being a distraction, but I won't bother popping on to this thread again since I don't think you're ever going to give any references.
Incidentally - have you published any research on any of these? Since you claim to have been a researcher at one stage, I would have thought that you would know the importance of writing your findings up and having your finding published. Or are they published in Russian?
Anyway, have a good one!
Thanks.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on
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If we based doing something for apparent positive results on scientific evidence, it is likely the human race would have perished thousands of years ago waiting for remedies.
I see at least every other day someone who benefits from abdominal massage. Many have been medically diagnosed and others have not. Based on diagnosis by Physicians I can say that abdominal massage does help with the above conditions even when medications failed and surgery was recommended. In fact many more conditions could be listed. Causes of illness are often up to debate because it is theory. I choose not to debate theories. I am too busy helping people get well based on traditional healing theories.
I realize that the evidence base group does not like statements of theory presented as fact. But this seems to be a case of shooting the messenger when the message has value but is not worded specifically enough. Can't we get beyond the days when we had to be so careful how we stated what we do because one slip up resulted in revoking a license. We still have to be careful how we caused a spine to release because many state boards protect Chiropractors from losing business to us.
It would be nice if this was just about sharing methodology that has benefit rather than turf wars and business.
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Hi Daniel,
I'm not evidence-based. I'm not in any turf war. I'm only trying to highlight the fact that sometimes claims need to be questioned, especially when they are presented *as fact* by teachers.
Methodology *if* it is presented as *a possible theory* is one thing. Coming across as knowing more than specialists in the medical field is another thing entirely. If someone can't ask "where did you get that information?" without being shot down, then that's OK with me. It doesn't say much about the shooters though, but maybe I'm just weird.
Thanks!
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Not trying to shoot anyone down Vlad. I just think so much on both sides of the evidence base argument is stated as fact when it is theory. I think being on the bottom of the health care totem pole as determined by laws and regulation makes us a defensive lot. Likewise, many of the arguments in threads have been over language and terminology rather than apparent effectiveness of techniques. If we can agree that most discussion is in regards to theory rather than proven fact perhaps we could get further.
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Vlad
"I kind of like it when people tell me they don't know something, though. But maybe I'm weird."
to bad that may be regarded as weird. But if it is, I'm proud to be weird.
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Hi Daniel.
as I stated ,reference do not producing results. more than this.many times we witnessing massive FDA recalls of medications, treatments methodologies, different equipment etc. of course this all recalls coming as a result of health complications,numerous of human dying etc.at the time if this same recalled medication and equipments etc.where in massive utilization before recall all reference where available.is the medical doctors always correct?????? we all know no they not. If always opinion of experts is correct? We all know that it is not always. academy in most cases walking the same trail. For example. 25 years ago people who use to suffering from fibromyalgia was referred to psychiatric care because blood test and radiological examination didn't support clinical symptoms.BTW. In most cases when one get into psychiatric care most of the people never coming back to normal life. Then rheumatology society decided that this is not psychosomatic disorders,and even proposed 21 tender points examination in order to diagnose fibromyalgia. They also claiming, that fibromyalgia is non-inflammatory condition, all of them prescribing antiinflammatory drugs,as well anti depressant.fibromyositis which is chronic inflammatory condition,and histological studies should be done differently then for cases of acute inflammation.but the point is that all symptoms/sufferings of fibromyalgia patients start on level of muscles and therefore successfully can be treated/managed by massage. Is reference playing some role in these cases????????
I proposed scientifically developed and clinically proven protocol. Therefore would like to request not to fuel Vlad's distraction of this topic .you welcome to comment on my videos. Questions, constructive criticism, is welcome. what is not welcome is a destruction, by asking reference before viewing all 12 steps, as well reading supporting material. You in person did witnesses few times when Vlad/Christopher tried to distract .let's discuss proposed topic. I would appreciate if you will offer your opinion on proposed protocol. Up front thank you.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Vlad I'm really sorry to hear about you suffering from these diseases.irritable bowel syndrome is preconditions for Crohn's disease. And many times when affecting multiple levels of gastro intestinal track it combining all symptoms. Always it resulting in venous blood stasis.I mean always. I don't want to repeat what I said at my presentation, as well offered to you to answer questions.below all conditions of Chron’s disease,that always developing gradually, it is always inflammatory conditions including stasis of venous blood,drainage of which is a first step to prevent development of it, as well to stimulate healing anti inflammatory processes and not less important will prevent Chron’s disease from affecting
multiple levels of gastro intestinal track.all below is a Chron’s diseases.
- Ileocolitis
- granulomatous) colitis
- Ileitis
- Jejunoileitis
Daniel Cohen said:
Not trying to shoot anyone down Vlad. I just think so much on both sides of the evidence base argument is stated as fact when it is theory. I think being on the bottom of the health care totem pole as determined by laws and regulation makes us a defensive lot. Likewise, many of the arguments in threads have been over language and terminology rather than apparent effectiveness of techniques. If we can agree that most discussion is in regards to theory rather than proven fact perhaps we could get further.
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Yes, don't ask questions, people. If you do, you're a *distraction*.
Just be aware of contraindications for inflammatory conditions and look up a few books before listening to anyone. Cross referencing is also a useful skill to have. Yep.
Oh, and those nasty medical doctors are not usually right about anything really, since they like science - kinda like those nasty people that developed the internet.
Nasty - all of them. And Christopher is nasty too. But he likes it.
Yep.
I'm off again!
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Everyone welcome to ask questions including you. And I made it clear .You/Christopher always trying to distract and therefore I asked you first of all to answer this questions. By posting this questions I just prevented destruction. This is all. No one but you ,called medical doctors nasty, as well no one but you stated :” medical doctors are not usually right about anything really, since they like science”
as I already explained, references to scientific data not always is reliable, as an example I brought all recalls by FDA. Most of the people including myself love science . What is absolutely obvious, that you far from understanding science related to massage therapy. Your attempt to doctrine that science of massage start from meta-analysis has nothing to do with reality of treatment room where we have to deliver results. The book that teaching not to perform massage in cases of non-septic inflammatory conditions is not good book and should be ignored . For example orthopedic massage protocols implementations designed to address inflammatory conditions such as tendinitis , bursitis , myositis etc. most of sports related injuries, job-related injuries, painful degenerative diseases of support and movement system etc. secondary causing developments of inflammatory disorders, and massage therapy is a most powerful methodology to address it. You asked me if most my reference in Russian. Yes. Most of them in Russian and some in German language. Methodology that I am practicing was developed in Russia, and is reliable methodology because it is in massive clinical use for more than 50 years, and proven as safed and effective, as well of course developed through scientific investigation/research and therefore all explanations scientifically sound. When I present to medical doctors, no one asking reference but judging presentation. For example . This doctors expecting and accepting all scientific facts that I proposed at my abdominal/ visceral massage video lessons as well will understood my questions that I proposed to you, as well capable to answer . This is the reason if one would like to challenge presented material she/he first would analyze presented material. The difference is ,You see huge importants in reference, and I in clinical outcome. If one will place reference or books against painful/trouble area would it help??????? Answer on questions and I will provide reference but this references do not make different in clinical outcomes. proposed and correctly applied abdominal/ visceral massage protocol will help.
Wish you get well.
PS.BTW you have to purchase Dr.Turchaninov Medical massage textbook. He did huge work I would say too much work (no one read this reference),collecting international scientific data and offering huge amount of references. But most important is not reference, in his text he offering scientific reviews and proposing hands-on protocols. Exactly what I did in my lessons.
Answer on my questions and you'll get references.
Vlad said:
Yes, don't ask questions, people. If you do, you're a *distraction*.
Just be aware of contraindications for inflammatory conditions and look up a few books before listening to anyone. Cross referencing is also a useful skill to have. Yep.
Oh, and those nasty medical doctors are not usually right about anything really, since they like science - kinda like those nasty people that developed the internet.
Nasty - all of them. And Christopher is nasty too. But he likes it.
Yep.
I'm off again!
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