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Skeptical about Energy Work
Folks -
There previously was a discussion on this site in which a skeptical attitude toward energy work was being discussed, but that discussion eventually got deleted. The reason seems to be that it was judged not to belong in the location where it was taking place, which was inside one of the energy work groups.
I was the person who introduced the skepticism to the discussion. Some people did not appreciate that, but others did. Given how many participants there are on this site, and how many threads and groups are dedicated to discussing energy work with no skepticism, I thought maybe it was time to open a discussion where such skepticism is invited and welcomed.
I look forward to seeing how this discussion might develop. Is there interest?
-CM
There previously was a discussion on this site in which a skeptical attitude toward energy work was being discussed, but that discussion eventually got deleted. The reason seems to be that it was judged not to belong in the location where it was taking place, which was inside one of the energy work groups.
I was the person who introduced the skepticism to the discussion. Some people did not appreciate that, but others did. Given how many participants there are on this site, and how many threads and groups are dedicated to discussing energy work with no skepticism, I thought maybe it was time to open a discussion where such skepticism is invited and welcomed.
I look forward to seeing how this discussion might develop. Is there interest?
-CM
Views: 3109
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Christopher A. Moyer on
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she is 82 years "young" and while up to the task intellectually, she already has a lot of stress in her life. I can't think what this group would do to her - not a pretty thought.
What this group would do to her? What does that mean?
But, I do have one question for you Professor....What is "it" when you "feel" someone is looking at you and you turn around and they are? Ever have that happen to you?
I'm guessing that you are asking me. (If so, please feel free to call me Chris.) I can't say I've experienced that, at least not recently. But I know that other people do, and of course I have had similar experiences happen to me - reaching for the phone to call someone I haven't talked to in a long time, only to have the phone ring at that instant and it is that person calling me.
Such occurrences are well explained by confirmation bias. We tend to be much better at remembering the times these things have happened and are congruent with our expectations (e.g., I feel like someone is looking at me - aha, that person is looking at me) than the times we check and find that our expectations are not confirmed (e.g., I feel like someone is looking at me - oh, there's actually no one there).
The human mind is a pattern-recognition device. It's so important for us to recognize patterns when they are there, that it is worth it to have a mind that errs on the side of recognizing some patterns that aren't actually there. To put it another way, we are not perfectly evolved to perceive the world as it really is; we are evolved to perceive the world in a way that maximizes our survival. The two are not exactly the same. Many of our scientific methods (the RCT would be one good example, but not the only one) have been developed to help us overcome our human limitations in perceiving the world as it actually is.
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Well said, Serge.
Serge Rivest said:Obviously there is energy and we can control it this way:
- Mechanical energy. (Pressure, traction, etc)
- Thermal energy. (Heat)
- Chemical energy. (Change in chemical reactions when mechanical stimulation moves the tissues)
That's it. Basic high school stuff.
Though there is this to consider: the power of suggestion. Using whatever model (realistic or not), if you can present to a person a nice scenario that makes them feel happy and give them hope their mind (the software) will reduce overall anxiety and this will help recovery. Ex:
- (Dr. Bob giving placebos): Take two of those per day for two weeks and that will get rid of that cold you have.
- (Esoteric MT): I have balanced your chakras and now you are in tune with the universe. Every movement you do will now be easier and the pain will slowly fade away as the planets align this month.
But this will only work if the person wants to believe in whatever you tell them. This is the difference between b******* and working with facts: If the person doesn't believe in the facts, it doesn't matter, they will get results.
I think 'energy work' stops massage from getting its well deserved place in healthcare industry. Those who practice this kind of work might want to do a course on critical thinking.
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Terry Capuano said:Apologizing for the poor grammar..it's late.....Have you ever had that happen to you?
Now that I have had happen to me!
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Permalink Reply by Julianna Holden Mohler on
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Christopher A. Moyer said:It may not mean much to you,
True.
however, it means a lot to those who've been there and know,
But that's not really knowing. That's deluding oneself into thinking one knows.
You're under the assumption that you, or someone "out there" is an authority over my experiences, or that the only possible qualifying "knowing" is scientific proof. There's some "expert" I've yet to have confirm my own authority, according to you. In other words, this comment is condescending, as if you know and I don't. So in fact, it's rather hypocritical.
So there is an obvious authority issue at work here. I have no problem accepting my own experiences as truth and knowledgeable. I don't have to cross examine if I'm deluding myself, or if I'm going to be mistaken.
Who was it in your life that made you feel less than an authority? You've made it a pursuit to be in authority here, as if you know something we poor, lost massage therapists have yet to realize. Get control of your own profession and life, then maybe we'll talk. =)
But what you have in reality is educated ignorance.
You have made an assumption: that energy doesn't exist. But if you make that statement to any physicist, they will laugh at you.
A scientific theory must be based on a premise, to find out the truth. The truth is in the results, and those can be measured; pulse rate, breath, overall sense of well-being. Or is that self-deluding too?
At what point do you, Chris, find someone not self-deluding? When all they have is a sheet of paper with facts and statistics? I feel sorry and sad for you if that's the case.
without needing an "expert" to tell them what they know.
Expertise has nothing to do with it. All that counts is evidence.
Um, wow? You really just proved my point. shaking head
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Christopher A. Moyer said
Almost no one is doing real research on energy medicine. Frankly, the people who know how to do research do not waste their time. It's as simple as that.
You reveal how ignorant you are to the facts. But the real reason there isn't as much research being done is not because it's a waste of time, it's because pharmaceutical companies won't fund it. Corporations don't profit from wellness. Bottom line is the only motivation.
As for why you think it's needed - why do you think that?
Because it works. I didn't think I had to state the obvious.
You've already stated your anti-scientific viewpoint.
You've yet to come up with a valid scientific viewpoint. You tear down everything on your misassumption that energy doesn't exist. My husband, who agrees with a lot of what you say, laughs when you say such silly things.
If science supports your viewpoint, you're all for it - but when it goes against your viewpoint, then you're against it.
First, you need to define "it." This is really a comment about your own perceptions. Certainly not mine. The difference between us is I don't need science to validate me. You obviously do. If science validates my viewpoint, I think it's great. If it won't, I don't care. There's nothing to be against in other words.
Julianna: But most especially they don't wait for those skeptics in the "scientific" community to condone nor approve of their work. Without them, I wouldn't have homeopathics nor Bach flower essences nor aromatherapy.
True enough. But what does it matter? You already know what works.
I can't know all there is to know in life, so I'm glad there are people I trust who can guide me towards the tools I can utilize in my profession or personal life.
He probably knows his branch of physics very well, but he doesn't know very much about medicine if he thinks homeopathy makes sense.
First, you're making more assumptions. I greatly admire his mind, his education, and his expertise. But I wouldn't hang my life on it. I never discounted science. I simply don't place it in the highest realm of "knowing." It has its place, but it's not the only valid measurement of life.
If you read medical literature, and his father is also a medical doctor in Germany, it's pretty hard to evade the fact that vaccinations have saved lives. But again, you don't need an expert to tell you that, do you? lol
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Christopher A. Moyer said:Christopher,
Many people don't heal from their injuries; chronic pain clients, for example, with RSD.
You're right, of course. There are plenty of chronic conditions that do not go away. Still, what I was attempting to say is also true - most of the injuries, infections, and conditions we experience run their course and are eliminated by our body's natural healing processes. And, even in the case of chronic conditions, we could accurately say that the body tends to manage them in a way that keeps us alive.
The point being - in most cases, a person gets better with or without treatment. We have to keep that in mind when studying treatments.
What is RSD?
I'd like to believe in vital force and admit to not knowing enough about it; I can't wait to research it in whole systems research.
Question: Do you understand vital force to be supplied by a separate entity?
My scientific opinion is that there is no vital force.
There you have it. We're all dead. lol
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Christopher A. Moyer said:Terry -
That is definitely cool that your client was acquainted with Einstein.
At the same time, that doesn't give her any special knowledge or authority on the present topic. She's certainly correct that we give off energy in the form of heat, but that's not what energy work proponents are talking about when they are talking about 'energy.'
Her assertion that "of course we are energy beings" illustrates the point I've been trying to make - that is a very imprecise statement. What does it mean? Without specifying what it means, we really can't discuss it meaningfully. I could just as accurately assert that my Honda is an energy being. It uses energy and gives off energy - those are absolutely true statements.
Chris, how do you know what we're talking about when we talk about "energy." We've yet to define it. YOU have yet to define it. Yet it does exist.
I understand there's still people in the world that think it's flat too, but you know, isn't it time to join the current century, Chris? =)
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I said in early posts that I'm no religion, don't want any part of any organized religion. But I do believe there's some force at work - call it God or whatever you want. It's apparent that if someone is a humanist, which Chris clearly is, there's no resolve to such a discussion as this.
If you bring up love as being equated with energy work, he says you try to derail the topic. You can't quantify or measure love anymore than you can quantify or measure energy, but the results are obvious by measurable results in a client's health. That doesn't seem to qualify to Chris. So Chris, your real agenda here is that God, vital force, energy, and whatever you wish to call it, doesn't exist. Something made it your mission in life to tell people this message. So, what did you lose when you were a child that made you stop trusting in such things? Who betrayed you or your trust?
There are still people who would make the same decisions today that they did at the Trial of Socrates who has him drink hemlock, or Joan of Arc burned at the stake. We still have witch hunts, and this mission trying to exterminate energy work from the massage therapy profession. The AMA would like nothing better than if naturopaths, homeopaths, acupuncturists and any alternative medicine would just go away. But like it or not, it will continue to thrive without your control. I'm only glad they don't burn us at the stake these days. We're here to stay. The world is shifting.
This is not an open discussion - if you come here with your conclusion, what discussion is left? You've come here to impress on us the need to eradicate energy work from the profession. There may be a split in the profession, just as with the AMA and other alternative health industries. I really don't need a massage therapy AMA to do my work.
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Several times in this discussion folks have brought up the importance and value of intuition. I just read this interesting (and short) essay about intuition. It reviews a little bit about when it works, when it doesn't, and what we know about it. Some of you might enjoy reading it.
http://blogs.hbr.org/hbr/mcafee/2010/01/the-future-of-decision-maki...
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Julianna -
I'll try to say these things as nicely as I can. Nevertheless, I doubt that you'll like them. Sorry about that.
This discussion is about a skeptical approach to energy medicine. Your approach is not at all skeptical. That's fine, but I'm not sure what kind of impact you hoped to make on this discussion with your entirely nonskeptical perspective.
In addition, you're not well informed about several of the things that we are discussing. To give just one example, you assume that one must believe in a vital force to understand that there are living things. This simply isn't the case. In fact, the majority of working scientists in modern times reject dualism as an assumption.
Worst of all, though, is that your methods of argumentation leave a lot to be desired. You attempt to argue from authority when you believe that it supports your points, and then accuse me of arguing from authority (which I work hard not to do) when it is convenient for you to do so. You engage in a kind of ad hominem attack by trying to associate me with some specific instances of shady or misguided practices from the history of psychology, despite the fact that I have nothing to do with any of those, nor do they have anything to do with the present topic. And, of course, you fail to provide any evidence at all to support your assertions, most of which are very imprecisely defined in any case.
I've tried hard not to be harsh in my entries to this discussion, and I hope that I have mostly succeeded in that. I've even tried not to be harsh in this particular instance. However, if a person is going to make poor arguments directed at me, I'm going to refute them, at least up to a point. Beyond that point I'll just ignore them, as it becomes a waste of time to argue with someone who cannot or will not stay on topic.
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Permalink Reply by Serge Rivest on
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Julianna Holden Mohler said:I said in early posts that I'm no religion, don't want any part of any organized religion. But I do believe there's some force at work - call it God or whatever you want. It's apparent that if someone is a humanist, which Chris clearly is, there's no resolve to such a discussion as this.
If you bring up love as being equated with energy work, he says you try to derail the topic. You can't quantify or measure love anymore than you can quantify or measure energy, but the results are obvious by measurable results in a client's health.
Yep but not causal.
That doesn't seem to qualify to Chris. So Chris, your real agenda here is that God, vital force, energy, and whatever you wish to call it, doesn't exist. Something made it your mission in life to tell people this message. So, what did you lose when you were a child that made you stop trusting in such things? Who betrayed you or your trust?
ad hominem, irrelevant.
There are still people who would make the same decisions today that they did at the Trial of Socrates who has him drink hemlock, or Joan of Arc burned at the stake. We still have witch hunts, and this mission trying to exterminate energy work from the massage therapy profession.
Comparing yourself to Socrates and Joan of arc is again irrelevant to the topic.
The AMA would like nothing better than if naturopaths, homeopaths, acupuncturists and any alternative medicine would just go away. But like it or not, it will continue to thrive without your control. I'm only glad they don't burn us at the stake these days. We're here to stay. The world is shifting.
This is not an open discussion - if you come here with your conclusion, what discussion is left? You've come here to impress on us the need to eradicate energy work from the profession. There may be a split in the profession, just as with the AMA and other alternative health industries. I really don't need a massage therapy AMA to do my work.
So far, energy work as defined by its practitioners is all belief and no facts. Therefore you do not 'know', you simply wish it was true.
I would be happy for a split in the profession: evidence-based massage vs belief-based massage. We could get government funding, research and could help lots of sick people with evidence-based massage while the belief-based massage can run their own show for the unfortunates who are gullible enough to get sucked in.
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I forgot two energies in my list:
+ Sound energy (wave of oscillating air pressure).
+ Light energy (wave of electromagnetic radiation).
Which boils down to: How you look and act and what you say to your client will have an impact on them.
So to complete the theory (no, I won't pretend I 'know'):
What you do, say, how you touch your client, how the room looks like, how the music sounds, how the temperature of the room is, how the table feels, etc will constitute energy of different forms being transmitted to the client (light, heat, pressure, sound, chemical reactions, etc). The client will then interpret those energies (don't like your voice, room too hot, bad music, comfy table, good deep pressure, etc) and will react accordingly.
That is my best effort to explain 'energy' in massage.
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