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Stop the Insanity!
I hope this gets everyone's attention, and I don't give a rip if anyone replies or not. I am posting this separately from the previous discussions on here that have deteriorated into the most vile insulting and mudslinging bunch of crap I have ever seen in my life.
It is distressing to me that massage therapists, researchers in the field, and anyone else associated with our profession in any way stoop to this kind of behavior. Not only is it not a productive discussion, it is starting to sound like a bunch of politicians on tv with their insulting of each other's credentials, standards, and abilities.
I am not interested in shame and blame, so who started it and who said what is irrelevant. I urge you all to remember that we are ALL in this profession because we have a desire to help people through the awesome power of touch, and that is what it is about.
We don't have to agree. We can all agree to disagree. The personal attacks, the character attacks, the arguing over which country does it better, is ridiculous, petty, and childish. This is not the first time this has happened. It is the main reason I avoid this site most of the time.
I am no better, or no worse than anyone else, and everybody is entitled to an opinion. That's what forums are meant for, so that people with differing opinions have a place to discuss those, but so much of what has gone on here is not a civil discussion. When I see people that I know to be hard-working, caring people, and people that I know to be brilliant minds and hard-working as well get into these mudslinging insulting arguments on here, I personally find that to be a bad reflection of what we are supposed to be about.
I don't have to be bad in order for you to be good. You don't have to be a failure just so someone else can be a success. One country who does things differently is not better or worse, they are just different. People get caught up in national pride, and that's okay, but it does not have to deteriorate into what some of these discussions have deteriorated into. Someone makes a comment, someone takes it the wrong way, or out of context, and it just goes downhill from there.
When you're writing like this, you can't hear people's tone of voice, you can't see their body language, and what might be civil if we were all in a room together comes off as a bunch of superior b*******, and one's just as guilty as the other. When anyone has anything intelligent to say, someone else seizes upon that and uses it as an excuse for the next round of arguing.
I wish everyone of you peace and prosperity, regardless of where you are from, what you do, or how you do it. We are all equal by virtue of the fact that we are all human and it's too bad that people are fighting like a pack of junkyard dogs instead of having a civil disagreement. I can't participate in it and I won't.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Emmanuel Bistas on
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I don’t know anything about ionic foot baths, but the same is true with supplements, herbs, essential oils and many other products that people buy from their chiropractor, acupuncturist, or pharmacist - right?. I am not saying they are quackery, but many of the claims that we hear have not been formally evaluated by the FDA so we don’t objectively know if they are true.
If the ionic foot bath is added on at no cost is one thing (same with the reiki in the operation room), but if there is an itemized charge for it, I see it differently.
For some reason this worries me less than other fraud issues, such as insurance mills, overbilling or paying to get one's hair done with insurance money intended for massage treatments. The temptation to profit at the expense of the system or clients is always there. And when you have a layer of bureaucracy - whether it's government or insurance - and the client does not reach in her pocket to pay directly, the temptation will probably be greater. It is ultimately up to the therapist to do the right thing and to report cases of fraud.
Vlad is now roadkill said:Just as some discussion fodder, I'm going to give an example of something that concerns me about the future of massage - about it's legitimacy and the incorporation of it into the healthcare arena and what constitutes a "profession".
I live in the Dallas suburbs and there's a huge chiropractic school here (which, incidentally, now has a massage program at it) and so there are a LOT of chiros in this area. Now, like most things, I think there are good chiros and not so good ones and I think that most people think that way. There are a lot in my area of town. A few of my clients go to one of them and he has an ionic foot bath. I'm sure most people have heard of these machines that are supposedly supposed to draw toxins from your feet - it's a complete rip off and it does nothing of the sort. Now, this chiropractor *may* not know that it's a quack machine, but he may also know it, preys on the ignorance of the public and uses it to make money. Is he a professional? He claims insurance for all his other work (including all the lovely rolling machines and other gadgets he has in his practice) but he doesn't claim for the foot soaking magical machine. How do his chiro buddies view him? Is he discrediting his profession by providing this are is he just a businessman? Do you think it right that insurance companies are giving him money for his other work - how good is his other *work* if he either didn't look into the credibility of his foot machine well enough or he did and spotted a money making opportunity by preying on the public's ignorance?
The chiropractic profession has a lot of hours of training, but still this sort of thing goes on.
If we (or even a % of us) are headed into the medical *profession*, I only hope there is some mechanism in place somewhere to prevent the same sort of behaviors in our area. I'm not sure how that could be done, but it should be something to keep in mind. The mighty dollar shouldn't be the main drive of any so called *profession* and if we're aiming for legitimacy and credibility, such practices probably would need to be nipped in the bud.
There are good chiros too though - I refer people to one of them in the area who actually uses a lot of stretching in his treatments. I wonder how many *good guys* there are though and I wonder what the good guys think of the quack machine owners.
Just throwing it out there.....
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Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on
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This thread would do much better if people started creating separate threads already - it's making me crazy having to read so much other 'stuff' and get to the actual topics so anyone up for doing what the initial post was about ???
could be a good topic on Reiki, ionic foot baths, selling retail products.
Isn't there also the evidence from results in your own practice that are and important part of research? If people are getting results using them - whether real or placebo or imagined - does it really matter?
or it might just be i haven't had my green tea this am!
Julie
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Permalink Reply by Matthew D. Stewart on
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In the spirit of Laura's original post:
We all have the drum major instinct. We all want to be important, to surpass others, to achieve distinction, to lead the parade.... And the great issue of life is to harness the drum major instinct. It is a good instinct if you don't distort it and pervert it.
Don't give it up. Keep feeling the need for being important. Keep feeling the need for being first.
But I want you to be the first in love. I want you to be the first in moral excellence.
I want you to be the first in generosity.
Martin Luther King
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Permalink Reply by Marilyn St.John on
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Matthew, I think you & Dr. King just nailed the essence and I thank you for posting that.
In response to the footbath discussion, the chiros I work with began using one just a few months ago, and I shall ask them about it tomorrow and post their response. I'm interested myself. In their defense, there are two people I have been around the office to meet, who have been using this "treatment," along with some sort of hand-pump exercise machine and oxygen therapy (and probably nutritional supplements and diet changes) who have literally blossomed. I am really, really amazed at the difference in their health. Back in December they each shuffled in with walkers, and now walk without assistance, and a bounce in their step.
I wholeheartedly agree, there are both good and bad chiropractors--and I was originally one of the biggest skeptics. Except for pharmacology, they actually have the same class hours as docs in med school. There is more of a concentration on nutrition and neurology in chiropractic school. All the chiros I know are Palmer-trained.
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Permalink Reply by Christopher A. Moyer on
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From several posts back:
So, if Reiki does not work and Dr. Oz has it in the surgery room, then Reiki is no different than a picture on the wall. Why it would make him less of a surgeon to have a picture on the wall?
But it's not equivalent to a picture on the wall.
There are several problems with a surgeon endorsing reiki. By endorsing it, he (or she) potentially promotes its use and gives it the appearance of scientific legitimacy, despite the fact that it has no such legitimacy. And this actually could lead to harm, if and when a person avoids or simply delays effective medical treatment by using reiki.
It also raises questions about the surgeon himself. Modern medicine should be rooted in science and evidence, not just made up willy-nilly, and it certainly should not be conducted in direct contravention of evidence. If a surgeon knows so little about nature that reiki seems plausible to him, it at least raises the issue that maybe there are other important things he ought to know about, but doesn't. To put it another way, training in anatomy, physiology, biology, and chemistry, if it's good training, should help one to see that reiki is nonsensical.
Now, having said that, I can also readily admit that human beings are remarkably good at holding contradictory thoughts and beliefs, often without detriment. I am *not* saying that just because a surgeon happens to believe in reiki, he cannot possibly be a good or a great surgeon. But it ought to at least raise some questions - how (and why) is this person walling off that belief from everything they have learned about nature? And, are there any risks associated with this?
Finally, I'd like to comment on the issue that performing "energy work" on someone without their knowledge or permission is unethical. I would agree that performing doing so in lieu of some other treatment that they have paid for and asked for would be unethical; for example, if someone paid for 50m of massage therapy, and the massage therapist simply declared that the last 10m of the 50m session would be reiki. That's cheating the person out of 10m of massage therapy. But otherwise, performing "energy work" on whomever is not and cannot be unethical, because it has no effect whatsoever.
I give anyone who is reading this full permission to perform distance energy work on me right now, as much and as strongly as they like. Hell, you can perform distance harming or voodoo on me - what difference would it make? Go for it.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on
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Christopher A. Moyer
"Finally, I'd like to comment on the issue that performing "energy work" on someone without their knowledge or permission is unethical. I would agree that performing doing so in lieu of some other treatment that they have paid for and asked for would be unethical; for example, if someone paid for 50m of massage therapy, and the massage therapist simply declared that the last 10m of the 50m session would be reiki. That's cheating the person out of 10m of massage therapy. But otherwise, performing "energy work" on whomever is not and cannot be unethical, because it has no effect whatsoever."
I agree with you that energywork can be performed without informing but not for your reason. Although, I do agree to give just energy work like Reiki in place of touch modalities would be cheating the client not agreeing to it. But that will be decided on whether the client returns.
In Asia and many other parts of the world energywork is part of a touch massage. Many developers of modalities that I know have said they do energywork with the physical bodywork. It is not an invasion of privacy but just part of bodywork just like developing your qi, ki, gi, prana or whatever you term it as part of martial arts. When a person accepts your touch they also accept energetic contact. They are inseparable. For those that believe in the universal or divine energy as being essential to life, channeling energy during massage is simply giving a boost while doing bodywork and letting the body take what it needs.
Rather than saying it doesn't exist science should accept it as a theory until proven. How many other things have been proven in the past 10 to 20 years that were doubted or out right denied?
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Daniel -
That is an interesting point about cultures and models of training where "energy work" may be assumed to go along with massage.
Regarding your last point, sure, it is a theory (specifically, that there is life force energy and that it can be manipulated, directed, or channeled in support of health and wellness). But the question is, is there any evidence in support of the theory? I suppose there is a type of evidence, in the form of clinical observations, but that type of evidence is problematic in very well-established ways. When the theory is tested more rigorously, there is no evidence that I know of.
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Granted the benefits of adding energy work are not scientifically provable
By this, do you mean they have not been proven, or that they are somehow fundamentally unprovable? If it's the latter, could you explain how that could be possible?
but I have observed many clients sleeping at the end of their sessions and I believe there are one or two studies that have shown sleep to be a healthy activity.
You don't mean to say that sleep following a massage is evidence of energy work, do you? I don't know how else to interpret your wording there.
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I guess I should had asked for more information.. did he actually endorse it, or did he have someone there doing reiki... and I wonder if a charge for reiki appeared on the surgery bill..
To find out what he actually did, I googled "Did Dr. Oz endorse reiki" and found that not only did he endorse reiki, but also endorsed yogurt, african mangos, multivitamins and many other things. He did not endorse acai berries though, so I guess he draws the line somewhere.
Christopher, what if he said...
"And this is reiki.. the theory behind it is [x]... nobody really knows how it works and some people actually dispute that it works at all.. but I like it, and my family practices it on a daily basis.. it is by no means substitute for medical treatment, but I would like to make it part of today's operation because I have had good experience with it" .
Would you object to that?
Christopher A. Moyer said:
From several posts back:
So, if Reiki does not work and Dr. Oz has it in the surgery room, then Reiki is no different than a picture on the wall. Why it would make him less of a surgeon to have a picture on the wall?
But it's not equivalent to a picture on the wall.
There are several problems with a surgeon endorsing reiki. By endorsing it, he (or she) potentially promotes its use and gives it the appearance of scientific legitimacy, despite the fact that it has no such legitimacy.
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Do people really rely on Dr. Oz & Dr. Phil for advice on selecting a massage therapist or which modality the therapist should use? Maybe I pay for the wrong type of promotions.
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Permalink Reply by Laura Allen on
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Bumper sticker on my car: "Ask your doctor if medical advice from a television show is right for you." ;)
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If a surgeon knows so little about nature that reiki seems plausible to him, it at least raises the issue that maybe there are other important things he ought to know about, but doesn't. To put it another way, training in anatomy, physiology, biology, and chemistry, if it's good training, should help one to see that reiki is nonsensical.
And physics as well. By request, I just reviewed a video presentation on studies of pranic healing from a distance.
The investigator claimed that distance and shielding had absolutely no effect on the healers' "energy".
Anyone with sufficient training in physics should be able to connect the dots between that claim and the fact that we have a real and demonstrable crisis in our use of energy, and what fossil-based fuels are doing to the planet and to ourselves.
If they really have the power to transcend the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics with regard to energy in the way they claim they do, we need them to help us solve our energy crisis *yesterday*. Since they haven't done so, are they just deliberately withholding something that would benefit all sentient beings? Or are they, like all of us, limited by constraints of nature, which physics specializes in describing, and which run contrary to their claims?
Good training in the fields you mentioned, plus physics in addition, would help integrate interconnected questions like that, so that people could evaluate for themselves whether particular claims made sense or not.
Christopher A. Moyer said:From several posts back:
So, if Reiki does not work and Dr. Oz has it in the surgery room, then Reiki is no different than a picture on the wall. Why it would make him less of a surgeon to have a picture on the wall?
But it's not equivalent to a picture on the wall.
There are several problems with a surgeon endorsing reiki. By endorsing it, he (or she) potentially promotes its use and gives it the appearance of scientific legitimacy, despite the fact that it has no such legitimacy. And this actually could lead to harm, if and when a person avoids or simply delays effective medical treatment by using reiki.
It also raises questions about the surgeon himself. Modern medicine should be rooted in science and evidence, not just made up willy-nilly, and it certainly should not be conducted in direct contravention of evidence. If a surgeon knows so little about nature that reiki seems plausible to him, it at least raises the issue that maybe there are other important things he ought to know about, but doesn't. To put it another way, training in anatomy, physiology, biology, and chemistry, if it's good training, should help one to see that reiki is nonsensical.
Now, having said that, I can also readily admit that human beings are remarkably good at holding contradictory thoughts and beliefs, often without detriment. I am *not* saying that just because a surgeon happens to believe in reiki, he cannot possibly be a good or a great surgeon. But it ought to at least raise some questions - how (and why) is this person walling off that belief from everything they have learned about nature? And, are there any risks associated with this?
Finally, I'd like to comment on the issue that performing "energy work" on someone without their knowledge or permission is unethical. I would agree that performing doing so in lieu of some other treatment that they have paid for and asked for would be unethical; for example, if someone paid for 50m of massage therapy, and the massage therapist simply declared that the last 10m of the 50m session would be reiki. That's cheating the person out of 10m of massage therapy. But otherwise, performing "energy work" on whomever is not and cannot be unethical, because it has no effect whatsoever.
I give anyone who is reading this full permission to perform distance energy work on me right now, as much and as strongly as they like. Hell, you can perform distance harming or voodoo on me - what difference would it make? Go for it.
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