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Stop the Insanity!
I hope this gets everyone's attention, and I don't give a rip if anyone replies or not. I am posting this separately from the previous discussions on here that have deteriorated into the most vile insulting and mudslinging bunch of crap I have ever seen in my life.
It is distressing to me that massage therapists, researchers in the field, and anyone else associated with our profession in any way stoop to this kind of behavior. Not only is it not a productive discussion, it is starting to sound like a bunch of politicians on tv with their insulting of each other's credentials, standards, and abilities.
I am not interested in shame and blame, so who started it and who said what is irrelevant. I urge you all to remember that we are ALL in this profession because we have a desire to help people through the awesome power of touch, and that is what it is about.
We don't have to agree. We can all agree to disagree. The personal attacks, the character attacks, the arguing over which country does it better, is ridiculous, petty, and childish. This is not the first time this has happened. It is the main reason I avoid this site most of the time.
I am no better, or no worse than anyone else, and everybody is entitled to an opinion. That's what forums are meant for, so that people with differing opinions have a place to discuss those, but so much of what has gone on here is not a civil discussion. When I see people that I know to be hard-working, caring people, and people that I know to be brilliant minds and hard-working as well get into these mudslinging insulting arguments on here, I personally find that to be a bad reflection of what we are supposed to be about.
I don't have to be bad in order for you to be good. You don't have to be a failure just so someone else can be a success. One country who does things differently is not better or worse, they are just different. People get caught up in national pride, and that's okay, but it does not have to deteriorate into what some of these discussions have deteriorated into. Someone makes a comment, someone takes it the wrong way, or out of context, and it just goes downhill from there.
When you're writing like this, you can't hear people's tone of voice, you can't see their body language, and what might be civil if we were all in a room together comes off as a bunch of superior b*******, and one's just as guilty as the other. When anyone has anything intelligent to say, someone else seizes upon that and uses it as an excuse for the next round of arguing.
I wish everyone of you peace and prosperity, regardless of where you are from, what you do, or how you do it. We are all equal by virtue of the fact that we are all human and it's too bad that people are fighting like a pack of junkyard dogs instead of having a civil disagreement. I can't participate in it and I won't.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on
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The mechanism of Qi is well understood throughout Asia. It is the basis of all the martial arts and Chinese Medicine. In China many case studies are recorded of Qi Medicine. Medical Qi Gong is an energetic healing tradition in China much older than the Japanese style Reiki.
It has been validated in Asian Medicine from several countries. In traditional Asian Bodywork it is inseperable from the physical aspect of bodywork.
Believe or don't believe it won't change the work many of us do. As the saying goes, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating".
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Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on
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I see your point and understand your paradox but it comes with every minority. It's always harder to sway opinion and action if you are not in the majority.
And I think you are close with your assesment of this site. Most seem fairly liberal to allow others to do their thing. They don't ask others to go against whatever they are doing or believe in, because they do not understand it.
More people are asking for more evidence, to base all their practices on. They have been hollering this for years. Glad to see websites growing with this information.
But we still need to honor and cherish all those loving, working in and promoting the field of Massage Therapy.
Vlad is now roadkill said:
Yeah, Mike, the pyramid woman no doubt loves her job. I'm only using her as one example of what we've to put up with.
My main point isn't her - it's the fact that she's taught it. Is it right to be taught something that has zero evidence to support it?
There's another point that I wanted to make with that. Each massage therapist is like a pixel in the picture of massage therapy that we present to the public. Every claim that each therapist makes is a part of that picture. If you get enough pixels that are *just not right* in the claims they're making, that picture isn't good. Each of us is affected by the claims that all the rest of us make. That's the thing. I don't think most therapists think of it that way because there's a tendency for us all to be absorbed in our own wee practices, but it matters.
As for whether the rational thinkers are the minority, I wonder if this whole site is really a mirror for the profession in the US. If that's the case, then we are in the minority. But that might be me not thinking right.
I dunno.
OK - I'm off again.
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Permalink Reply by Vlad on
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Daniel,
If we're not educated on how to objectively appraise a claim or how to employ critical thinking skills in our education, then people will continue to believe whatever is taught to us, and tradition will over-ride everything else, including scientific investigation.
If we're not taught to critically appraise a claim, it's not just an injustice to the therapists, it's an injustice to the public that we serve.
If you're saying that the "validation" is through some number of case studies on chi-related modalities or unpublished work, then of course, that's up to you. It's up to everyone to choose. And, in fact, I'll say that I'm ignorant on that one since I haven't looked at the research behind it in much detail. What's happening at the minute is that people are choosing without being equipped with the skills to appraise claims well.
And again, that isn't just a *in our profession* thing - unsubstantiated claims can be sold on to the public because Joe Public is not questioning the claims either. That doesn't make it *right* though, really does it?
Well, I'm off here again. And again.
No, really. I'm off again.
Really. (For those who don't know, the "Vlad is now roadkill" name is because I'd killed my presence on this board last summer. This is Vlad's wee ghost - he's off again. **POOF**).
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Permalink Reply by Erica Olson on
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*nod* The bit about the pressure/meridian points regarding pregnancy is a perfect example. M&BP magazine wrote a fairly in-depth article about it in the last year, but I know soooo many MTs who are terrified of doing prenatal work because they've been sold the "don't touch here" line. This not only hurts our profession, but it hurts the public as well.
E.
Vlad is now roadkill said:Daniel,
If we're not educated on how to objectively appraise a claim or how to employ critical thinking skills in our education, then people will continue to believe whatever is taught to us, and tradition will over-ride everything else, including scientific investigation.
If we're not taught to critically appraise a claim, it's not just an injustice to the therapists, it's an injustice to the public that we serve.
If you're saying that the "validation" is through some number of case studies on chi-related modalities or unpublished work, then of course, that's up to you. It's up to everyone to choose. And, in fact, I'll say that I'm ignorant on that one since I haven't looked at the research behind it in much detail. What's happening at the minute is that people are choosing without being equipped with the skills to appraise claims well.
And again, that isn't just a *in our profession* thing - unsubstantiated claims can be sold on to the public because Joe Public is not questioning the claims either. That doesn't make it *right* though, really does it?
Well, I'm off here again. And again.
No, really. I'm off again.
Really. (For those who don't know, the "Vlad is now roadkill" name is because I'd killed my presence on this board last summer. This is Vlad's wee ghost - he's off again. **POOF**).
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Erica does make a good point, I had lots of therapists start to get nervous when told the lady was pregnant. And she cited an article to help, but what if they weren't ABMP (180,000) to get that issue and they dont surf very much to know about the fantastic digital versions, (you guys gotta go see um on site here... great new technology).
Anyways, lots of folks aren't getting this vital info, but it's only been out a year. It will take some time for things to get around.
So many schools are teaching wrong information. Research will always need to be debated and peer reviewed for accuracy. There need to be multi sources to debate all this research. After agreements are met, the credentialed results could be sent to schools.
EBP is just getting going. I hope it does not become a wedge, but rather helps inform therapists and keep all schools updated on current findings. But research should take place for all, if all are funding the research.
Erica Olson said:
*nod* The bit about the pressure/meridian points regarding pregnancy is a perfect example. M&BP magazine wrote a fairly in-depth article about it in the last year, but I know soooo many MTs who are terrified of doing prenatal work because they've been sold the "don't touch here" line. This not only hurts our profession, but it hurts the public as well.
E.
Vlad is now roadkill said:Daniel,
If we're not educated on how to objectively appraise a claim or how to employ critical thinking skills in our education, then people will continue to believe whatever is taught to us, and tradition will over-ride everything else, including scientific investigation.
If we're not taught to critically appraise a claim, it's not just an injustice to the therapists, it's an injustice to the public that we serve.
If you're saying that the "validation" is through some number of case studies on chi-related modalities or unpublished work, then of course, that's up to you. It's up to everyone to choose. And, in fact, I'll say that I'm ignorant on that one since I haven't looked at the research behind it in much detail. What's happening at the minute is that people are choosing without being equipped with the skills to appraise claims well.
And again, that isn't just a *in our profession* thing - unsubstantiated claims can be sold on to the public because Joe Public is not questioning the claims either. That doesn't make it *right* though, really does it?
Well, I'm off here again. And again.
No, really. I'm off again.
Really. (For those who don't know, the "Vlad is now roadkill" name is because I'd killed my presence on this board last summer. This is Vlad's wee ghost - he's off again. **POOF**).
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How did this thread get hijacked? Perhaps a new one can be started to discuss the place of traditional medicine and current scientific method.
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Permalink Reply by Alexei Levine on
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Good point Ezekiel, is pyramid power different from crucifix power?
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So Acupuncture is a placebo? It is strictly based on acupoints and meridians. Nixon had his appendix removed with only acupuncture as the anesthesia. He was hardly a New Age promoter prone towards placebos. Acupressure has a bit more behind it since in addition to acupoint/meridian theory it also uses the acupoints that are called trigger points in the west and deep pressure on muscle and fascia with stretch therapy.
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Permalink Reply by Ravensara Travillian on
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Actually, just to get the details on that story right, It was not Nixon, but a reporter in the entourage, James Reston. He writes at http://www.acupuncture.com/testimonials/restonexp.htm:
"In brief summary, the facts are that with the assistance of 11 of the leading medial specialists in Peking, who were asked by Premier Chou En-lai to cooperate on the case, Prof. Wu Wei-jan of the Anti-Imperialist Hospital's surgical staff removed my appendix on July 17 after a normal injection of Xylocain and Bensocain, which anesthetized the middle of my body.
There were no complications, nausea or vomiting. I was conscious throughout, followed the instructions of Professor Wu as translated to me by Ma Yu-chen of the Chinese Foreign Ministry during the operation, and was back in my bedroom in the hospital in two and a half hours.
However, I was in considerable discomfort if not pain during the second night after the operation, and Li Chang-yuan, doctor of acupuncture at the hospital, with my approval, inserted three long thin needles into the outer part of my right elbow and below my knees and manipulated them in order to stimulate the intestine and relieve the pressure and distension of the stomach."
So the reporter had medical anesthetics for the surgery, and then had acupuncture for pain afterwards.
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Having been raised in the Deep South myself (Alabama), the people I've seen who are absolutely the most passionate about taking down the things you name are Christian fundamentalists, who see them as manifestations of Satanism.
Ezekiel OBrien said:
Daniel-I think it got hijacked shortly after the regurgitated comments about therapists in the South, woo woo's etc. call it a mercy hijacking.
Alexei-I don't want to disabuse anyone of their belief system but in my heart of hearts I always hope that someone who tries to take down Qi lines, pyramids or clearing the energy is a skeptic through and through and an avowed Atheist because otherwise it is, to paraphrase what the Jewish Carpenter said, "A case of casting the first stone." And I don't think He would approve.
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Permalink Reply by Matthew D. Stewart on
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Thanks Vlad,
I think you, yet again, make a salient point. To critically evaluate claims is an important skill. Along with some information and research literacy training, critical thinking would empower MT's to look at the claims for therapies touted by CE providers (and decide for themselves if they want the training) and be able to continue their own, life-long development.
With those skills there would be very little increase in hours in the classroom and MT's can get out there and 'earn and learn'. Of course, teachers would need to up-skill too.
Having said that, in my experience both teacher and students are reluctant to change (teachers tend to dislike change having put work in teaching materials and their education already); students tend to dislike anything that makes them think).
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you, but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." ~Don Marquis
Vlad is now roadkill said:Daniel,
If we're not educated on how to objectively appraise a claim or how to employ critical thinking skills in our education, then people will continue to believe whatever is taught to us, and tradition will over-ride everything else, including scientific investigation.
If we're not taught to critically appraise a claim, it's not just an injustice to the therapists, it's an injustice to the public that we serve.
If you're saying that the "validation" is through some number of case studies on chi-related modalities or unpublished work, then of course, that's up to you. It's up to everyone to choose. And, in fact, I'll say that I'm ignorant on that one since I haven't looked at the research behind it in much detail. What's happening at the minute is that people are choosing without being equipped with the skills to appraise claims well.
And again, that isn't just a *in our profession* thing - unsubstantiated claims can be sold on to the public because Joe Public is not questioning the claims either. That doesn't make it *right* though, really does it?
Well, I'm off here again. And again.
No, really. I'm off again.
Really. (For those who don't know, the "Vlad is now roadkill" name is because I'd killed my presence on this board last summer. This is Vlad's wee ghost - he's off again. **POOF**).
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I agree. The word placebo has a negative connotation, but perhaps we should reexamine that. The placebo effect is a "scientifically provable" phenomenon that works. Even though we don't understand its' mechanism of action we shouldn't close our eyes to it. The power of the mind/body is amazing. I think that sometimes hypocrisy arises because people are too afraid to admit that they don't understand something.
Ezekiel OBrien said:
I am saying I am not sure that it really matters or not if it is or isn't. If you get satisfying results from anything in life be it travel, a spouse, or needles stuck in tsubo would it matter to you if it was scientifically provable? We are descended from a culture of brilliant scientific minds that in addition to the internet and pop tarts thought that the Sun revolved around the Earth, leeches could cure any disease that reddened, that surviving "trial by ordeal" aka burning or drowning a defendant was a way to determine quilt, and that Thalidomide was a great cure for morning sickness. In my own experience I tend to, as one commenter put it have my neck hairs curl, when grandiose health claims are made about massage, acupuncture or anything for that matter. But so far I have enjoyed my handful of acupuncture sessions enough so that if I feel the need for more sessions then I will happily pay. In the Bay area we have cheap quality "community acupuncture clinics" which makes it even more appealing.
Daniel Cohen said:
So Acupuncture is a placebo? It is strictly based on acupoints and meridians. Nixon had his appendix removed with only acupuncture as the anesthesia. He was hardly a New Age promoter prone towards placebos. Acupressure has a bit more behind it since in addition to acupoint/meridian theory it also uses the acupoints that are called trigger points in the west and deep pressure on muscle and fascia with stretch therapy.
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