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I hope this gets everyone's attention, and I don't give a rip if anyone replies or not. I am posting this separately from the previous discussions on here that have deteriorated into the most vile insulting and mudslinging bunch of crap I have ever seen in my life.

 

It is distressing to me that massage therapists, researchers in the field, and anyone else associated with our profession in any way stoop to this kind of behavior. Not only is it not a productive discussion, it is starting to sound like a bunch of politicians on tv with their insulting of each other's credentials, standards, and abilities.

 

I am not interested in shame and blame, so who started it and who said what is irrelevant. I urge you all to remember that we are ALL in this profession because we have a desire to help people through the awesome power of touch, and that is what it is about.

 

We don't have to agree. We can all agree to disagree. The personal attacks, the character attacks, the arguing over which country does it better, is ridiculous, petty, and childish. This is not the first time this has happened. It is the main reason I avoid this site most of the time.

 

I am no better, or no worse than anyone else, and everybody is entitled to an opinion. That's what forums are meant for, so that people with differing opinions have a place to discuss those, but so much of what has gone on here is not a civil discussion. When I see people that I know to be hard-working, caring people, and people that I know to be brilliant minds and hard-working as well get into these mudslinging insulting arguments on here, I personally find that to be a bad reflection of what we are supposed to be about.

 

I don't have to be bad in order for you to be good. You don't have to be a failure just so someone else can be a success. One country who does things differently is not better or worse, they are just different. People get caught up in national pride, and that's okay, but it does not have to deteriorate into what some of these discussions have deteriorated into. Someone makes a comment, someone takes it the wrong way, or out of context, and it just goes downhill from there.

 

When you're writing like this, you can't hear people's tone of voice, you can't see their body language, and what might be civil if we were all in a room together comes off as a bunch of superior b*******, and one's just as guilty as the other. When anyone has anything intelligent to say, someone else seizes upon that and uses it as an excuse for the next round of arguing.

 

I wish everyone of you peace and prosperity, regardless of where you are from, what you do, or how you do it. We are all equal by virtue of the fact that we are all human and it's too bad that people are fighting like a pack of junkyard dogs instead of having a civil disagreement. I can't participate in it and I won't.

 

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Evil is in the mind of the aggravated.

Ravensara Travillian said:
"Evil"? Seriously?

Nicely put Daniel.  Being of the same cloth as the Amta, for the most part, led to the aggravation.  Their behavior aggravated me.  The only thing separating me from the Amta agenda is I am not willing to impose that agenda on anyone. Particularly aggravating was finding out their underhanded ways extended even against their own membership. 

 

All must remember the Amta is a 501(c)6 nonprofit interested in advancing the modality of massage therapy not the folk doing the modality. Pushing to increase the requirements to practice in IL is a concrete example of that. Not everybody needs to be a massage therapist to touch for income. 

 

I hope y'all took the time to look at the presentation by Kathryn Schultz.  Evil is relative.  Rather than politicize, I would like to have some discussion about how to deal with the wrongs that have been created by some believing they were right. 

 

The Rev

As licensing becomes more time consuming and costly for the legal right to be in the business of touch more and more simply go underground as unlicensed. The ones who do choose to legitimize are the ones agreeing to meet the rules. When these are violated by the otherwise law abiding MTs  they are punished as the law allows. Do those who are not accepted disappear? Some do and others simply become part of a cash economy that does not exist. Does this protect the public? A bit. Does it warrant increasing the time and money for someone to legitimately charge for touching? Personally I don't think so. 

Increase the breadth of the field with research and variety of modalities but leave an entry threshold that allows people to step in. Without any hope of increasing profit for education and licensing return how can we expect not to trip on our faces.

I understand that you are aggravated and that you disagree with their tactics, but I don't see how you get from there to labeling other people as "evil".

The Rev said:

Nicely put Daniel.  Being of the same cloth as the Amta, for the most part, led to the aggravation.  Their behavior aggravated me.  The only thing separating me from the Amta agenda is I am not willing to impose that agenda on anyone. Particularly aggravating was finding out their underhanded ways extended even against their own membership. 

 

All must remember the Amta is a 501(c)6 nonprofit interested in advancing the modality of massage therapy not the folk doing the modality. Pushing to increase the requirements to practice in IL is a concrete example of that. Not everybody needs to be a massage therapist to touch for income. 

 

I hope y'all took the time to look at the presentation by Kathryn Schultz.  Evil is relative.  Rather than politicize, I would like to have some discussion about how to deal with the wrongs that have been created by some believing they were right. 

 

The Rev

"Increase the breadth of the field with research and variety of modalities but leave an entry threshold that allows people to step in."

 

Is there any way to implement that principle other than a tiered practice act? What would be the steps to carry out such a policy?

 



Daniel Cohen said:

As licensing becomes more time consuming and costly for the legal right to be in the business of touch more and more simply go underground as unlicensed. The ones who do choose to legitimize are the ones agreeing to meet the rules. When these are violated by the otherwise law abiding MTs  they are punished as the law allows. Do those who are not accepted disappear? Some do and others simply become part of a cash economy that does not exist. Does this protect the public? A bit. Does it warrant increasing the time and money for someone to legitimately charge for touching? Personally I don't think so. 

Increase the breadth of the field with research and variety of modalities but leave an entry threshold that allows people to step in. Without any hope of increasing profit for education and licensing return how can we expect not to trip on our faces.

No tier is needed. We already have this except for the states that have gone beyond 500 hours. Since our field is "touch" ,which differs it from others in healthcare, practical "hands on" experience should be valued. "Practicum" should be retained as important in any hours requirement. We must retain the quality of "art" among the "scientific" or lose the identity, as well as, many of our practitioners.

A person is always free to excel without being required to begin there by regulation. And whether excellence can be achieved through regulatory entry levels is highly questionable in a field that requires art, in addition to knowledge. 

"No tier is needed. We already have this except for the states that have gone beyond 500 hours. Since our field is "touch" ,which differs it from others in healthcare, practical "hands on" experience should be valued. "Practicum" should be retained as important in any hours requirement. We must retain the quality of "art" among the "scientific" or lose the identity, as well as, many of our practitioners."

 

I understand that you are stating general principles and ideals, but what I am asking is what are the pragmatic steps that can be taken to turn that into actual policy? If you don't approve of what AMTA and the regulatory bodies are doing, what specifically would you do differently that would have the effects you state in your principles, and is also measureable and doable, so that a regulatory body can carry it out in a transparent way that observers can judge as fair or not?

 

"A person is always free to excel without being required to begin there by regulation. And whether excellence can be achieved through regulatory entry levels is highly questionable in a field that requires art, in addition to knowledge. "

 

I don't think excellence can be achieved through regulation. I think the best it can do is weed out most of the actively-dangerous practitioners (like the cases Laura mentioned she sat on the Board for review of). It's certainly not an ideal goal, but it is very important.

 


Hi, Ezekiel--

 

I did as you requested, because I thought that perhaps I had indeed misread the Rev's comment. I watched the video, and then I went back and re-read the comment.

 

I thought that you were saying that the Rev had taken the message that "I could be wrong" to heart, and had decided that accusing people whom you disagree with to be "evil" was a mistake on his part. Interestingly, she actually explicitly addressed this point of demonizing people who agree with you.

 

I thought that I would realize that I had misread the comment, and that I would apologize for doing so, and I would thank you for correcting my mistake. It still could turn out that way, but I am having real trouble seeing it.

 

I still don't see how to read his comment:

 

"The evil and insanity, to me, is the Amta walking away from the table many moons ago.. That was 100% wrong.   I still don't think I am wrong, but. "I err, therefore I am.""

 

and his following one about AMTA, as self-effacing, or as anything, really, than exactly what the video talked about regarding people who have different opinions from you as "evil".

 

Given the names and insults people routinely throw around here, I think we have a long way to go to become a profession--if, indeed, that's what we want to do. And we have a lot to do in the starting to tolerate diversity department, as well. The first step in that direction is talking about facts and issues, rather than calling each other names. As long as some of us are regarded as "evil", there's no unity or professionalism here.



Ezekiel OBrien said:

Ravensara watch the video and you will get The Rev's reference. . . I think?  It is actually a self-effacing comment by The Rev. . . although I could be wrong.


PS I have always been impressed by how you conduct yourself in debate and project malleability, so some of us probably benefit more from the video which Jan posted than you.
Ravensara Travillian said:

"Evil"? Seriously?

Oops:

 

"demonizing people who agree with you"

 

of course, that should be *disagree*. My bad; I didn't notice it until the edit time ran out.

Now you are on to something, Daniel.  Unfortunately, to get our field to be "touch" the umbrella of Massage Therapy would have to be removed.  With many state laws sunsetting or being impacted for budgetary reasons something like that may not be as difficult as it could be.   Another 501(c)6 advocating touch would be needed.  If you start the movement, I will join you.  

 

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/THE_RUBBER/  is a site I have not let go of yet that is pretty much still the position I hold.  http://iscaaty.blogspot.com/2007/06/dear-senator-oropeza-via-fax-an... is something that could be considered for starters.  A license to touch might be a good thing.  

 

How long have you been connected to the massage industry Ravensara?  If you think the name-calling is bad now, you should have been around before the Amta had their way with so many states.  Check out the archives of the group found here:   http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/bodywork_politics/  It ain't a pretty picture. 

 

Rev Rob the Russian Rubber

 

 

 



Daniel Cohen said:

No tier is needed. We already have this except for the states that have gone beyond 500 hours. Since our field is "touch" ,which differs it from others in healthcare, practical "hands on" experience should be valued. "Practicum" should be retained as important in any hours requirement. We must retain the quality of "art" among the "scientific" or lose the identity, as well as, many of our practitioners.

A person is always free to excel without being required to begin there by regulation. And whether excellence can be achieved through regulatory entry levels is highly questionable in a field that requires art, in addition to knowledge. 

"How long have you been connected to the massage industry Ravensara?"

 

20 years exactly.

Where did you train?  Are you a practitioner? 

Ravensara Travillian said:

"How long have you been connected to the massage industry Ravensara?"

 

20 years exactly.

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