massage and bodywork professionals

a community of practitioners

The Massage Therapy Alliance of America - A New Alliance For Therapists!

We are so excited for Massage Therapists!!!  But, instead of re-explaining it here, go to the source at http://www.mtaamassage.org 

 

Some of the debate that will take place on this topic will be heated. If opposing sides discussing issues is not your cup of tea, just visit the website. FYI!

Views: 521

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on February 13, 2011 at 10:13pm

Great post Vlad.

 

Massage Therapists run the gamut in business models. They go from unlicensed home visits working for cash through resort spas to Chiropractic and Medical offices. Many are independent working on their own. Others are employees of corporate entities. Whatever realm they have carved out for themselves, what value does an organization have for the average Therapist?

For those interested in promoting packaged programs and being organizationally involved one more professional organization may interest them. Each organization takes a different slant on things so there is always room for one more.

But does the average Therapist need such representation to better run their own business?

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 13, 2011 at 10:13pm

Hi Vlad,

Yes teachers are therapists. All three of the veterans helping me are teachers and practitioners.

Your next group of questions should have been addressed to those that made the statements at symposiums at Festival. I put the list up of what complaints were at Festival. I don't control the Alliancne. I have vever said it won't or will be political. That again will be up to those elected and those that are members.

 

Overstepping will be up to the Alliance or not. I will be in Vegas running the Festival. What people think, I can not control. I have to be honest to myself. I see a need. Therapists have been after me for years to do this. I am not going to stop because apicture wasn't what some lady wanted or thought was right for the website, someone thinks I am rude or for any other reason. This Alliance is looking for leadership. And yes no matter what we are going to do this. Many  feel they have no voice in things that are happening and want the Alliance to give another side to issues. Our politeness has hurt this profession in many ways. Many feel massage has sold out to corporate America. This may be a way to at least express that not all want it that way. I do not feel a bit bad by helping therapists have another voice and it iscoming.

 

I don't care what it smacks of. I know and that's all I can. I don't have the time or ability to change your minds. Those that don't join will see it was ok. That's it. If it is the horror story that you fear... people will not stay, right? I do not know where you get this independent from WMF. I never said that, WMF was formed independently as well. We started with 5 folks and now we are pushing 500.

You don't do that by sneaky tactics. You do it day in day out grass-roots effort by dozens of folks. Some are the most revered in our business. You don't get grass-roots efforts for six years if you don't walk the walk. I help people everyday and if people want to think the worst because I just don't snap off the answer they want, that'll just have to be their problem. I'll never please everyone no matter what.

 

Vlad is now roadkill said:

I'm coming out of lurkdom to ask some questions only:

 

When you say it's for massage therapists by massage therapists, does that include MT teachers?

Are your "veterans" teachers or practitioners?

 

On your site you have a list of issues that you regard as things that are of importance to MTs, which I presume are the main things that this new alliance will address:


  • I just want to be left alone to massage. (This is an issue?  Really?  Who isn't left alone?)
  • There are too many rules I don't know about. (Well, there's this thing called the internet where you can get a list of rules if you weren't aware of them and you should have been shown where to find them in your schooling)
  • I don't want to go to meetings. (Who is forcing you to go to meetings?)
  • No politics. I can't argue. I hate it. (OK - it's a problem, most therapists don't like the bickering.  Is throwing another org into the mix the answer?)
  • I was doing this before all these laws.(And your point is????)
  • Nobody will listen. (Well, if you can't be bothered going to meetings and getting involved in the orgs that already exist, then who are you trying to get to listen to you?  Also, there's facebook and online forums where you can shout as much as you want, lovelies.  The internet is a good thing.  You can even put feelers out to see if another organization is needed before launching one)
  • I don't want to be numbered. I don't do medical massage.(I don't know what that first sentence means, but as far as medical massage goes, neither do I.  No one is forcing anyone to do that and I don't think anyone ever will be forced to do that.)
  • Why can't we close down lousy schools? (Because it's the nature of vocational schools. Lack of educational standards is a problem , but hopefully the new alliance for MT educators will help with that one.)
  • How can schools keep making outlandish promises of income? (How can we teach people to question everything that they're told, including having realistic expectations would be a much better question - and that includes everything that they're taught at massage schools, including "Can you explain the claims that you are making about crystal therapy in more detail and show me some studies that show it works?")
  • I would sell retail at my establishment if someone would teach me how.(There isn't info on this on the internet?  You're waiting on someone holding your hand to show you how?  Wow - maybe you should work for someone else)
  • There are too many therapists. (and if we keep things the way they are, there will be more, but you seem to favor the free market system, Mike, so plenty will fail too.).
  • Why isn't there enough research yet? (In what?  Crystal therapy?  Being aware of what the MTF is doing and getting accustomed to google scholar would be a good idea - you might get some idea of how much research has been done)
  • I want portability between states. (Yep. this one actually is a good point.  Don't we all?  I think there's this thing called "politics" that might help with that one, but then the Alliance won't have any politics in it, will it?  - At least that's what you're claiming)

Mike, are you really expecting to draw people in with that list?

Also, since there has been such a history of bickering between orgs in the MT world, how can you presume that this org won't overstep what either local chapters or the other orgs are trying to fix?

I've got to admit that I thought "It's the WMF Alliance" when I first saw this. Why don't you just call it that instead?  Since you're going ahead with this no matter what people think, it would make it sound what it really is.  Making out that it has been formed independent from the WMF just smacks of sneaky tactics, Mike. 

I hope you'll consider doing that at least.

 

I'm back to lurkdom.

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 13, 2011 at 10:24pm
Yes they do Daniel. You hit it right on the head. Now these folks that are out there can have a voice because their membership in the Alliance will give it to them. They do not have to do anything to qualify except join and be a therapists working legally in their local. That is the easiest membership avaliable to therapists. If ABMP has around 74,000 now and AMTA is around 50,000 who is speaking for any of the other 125,000 therapists out there?

Daniel Cohen said:

Great post Vlad.

 

Massage Therapists run the gamut in business models. They go from unlicensed home visits working for cash through resort spas to Chiropractic and Medical offices. Many are independent working on their own. Others are employees of corporate entities. Whatever realm they have carved out for themselves, what value does an organization have for the average Therapist?

For those interested in promoting packaged programs and being organizationally involved one more professional organization may interest them. Each organization takes a different slant on things so there is always room for one more.

But does the average Therapist need such representation to better run their own business?

Permalink Reply by Vlad on February 13, 2011 at 10:42pm

Daniel: But does the average Therapist need such representation to better run their own business?

If you're referring to an association for those working for Chiros or in specific mods, that's different.  It's also a local issue.  Here you can work for a Chiro without a massage license and so it is being tackled at a local level.  Also, there is little education on ethics within the medical side of things, so therapists don't know when the Chiros are being unethical or when they're being taken advantage of (like if the Chiro is ripping off the insurance company and using the MT to do it).  But that's also an education issue.  There already is an Alliance set up for MT Educators (http://www.afmte.org/) .  It's new, but hopefully it will tackle the crap standards that we have at the minute and maybe we'll have different streams for different career paths, but that's not what this WMF Alliance is for, is it?  If you're going to have 2 different groups of people talking about the same things, then not only do you have a chance for clashing of directions, but you've got wasted time and resources.   

 

Mike, when you say that you don't care what it smacks of, you're really saying a lot. I care what it smacks of and I think anyone that has come on to this thread to ask you questions cares. You have had regular therapists on this thread that have been asking questions and you haven't given in to anything.  You've stood your ground.  You always do.  And you know what all therapists want, right?  And you're creating something that for the therapists and by the therapists.

I seriously hope that whoever your veterans are and whoever you pull in to your BoD cares what regular therapists think this whole things smacks of, and their first decision will be to change the name to The WMF Alliance. 

 


Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on February 14, 2011 at 12:01am

Yes I totally had the same questions when reading that on the website...

 

Then your first list of things to do is teach MT sales- are you serious?  Is that the job of an association?

 

Most of the things that are listed are already being addressed by ABMP or AMTA - both have CE classes.  I know ABMP has a massive marketing section to teach people 'sales' - Actually sales has nothing to do with being a massage therapist.  People know when they are being sold to.  It is about building relationships. That would require that each person enter into psychotherapy to deal with their self esteem issues and why they don't like to talk about themselves and promote their business.

 

The thing that actually bugs me the most about this new alliance is that there hasn't been any research to see if it is needed by the profession and there hasn't been any research to see what is actually needed.  One guy hearing stories at a festival that he puts one is not accurate data.  Maybe you should call it "Mike Hinkles big massage alliance". 

This is how the NCBTMB was started - someone or a small group from AMTA decided they wanted to have an entrance exam for AMTA.  Without any research or studies it all of a sudden turned into the NCBTMB and look where they are now.  They do not understand the profession from what I see and never have.

 

I personally would love to see AMTA and ABMP merge in some way or work together on issues that we are faced with.

 

Some of the things that we are currently faced with as a profession is being recognized as a health care profession.  Changing how MT are seen by TV shows like the View will only happen when we do that.  Just complaining to them that we don't like the way they talk about us won't cut it. 

 

One guy going off to start an alliance because he thinks it is needed is well very unprofessional.  The associations that are already set up are very open to input and helping MT if they would only ask instead of sitting in their empty rooms wondering how to do sales.

 

What does the profession really, reaaaalllly need- answer that before you even start another group but as you said - it is already too late.  You want to do what YOU want to do which is part of the whole problem in the massage profession.

 

Julie

 

Vlad is now roadkill said:

I'm coming out of lurkdom to ask some questions only:

 

When you say it's for massage therapists by massage therapists, does that include MT teachers?

Are your "veterans" teachers or practitioners?

 

On your site you have a list of issues that you regard as things that are of importance to MTs, which I presume are the main things that this new alliance will address:


  • I just want to be left alone to massage. (This is an issue?  Really?  Who isn't left alone?)
  • There are too many rules I don't know about. (Well, there's this thing called the internet where you can get a list of rules if you weren't aware of them and you should have been shown where to find them in your schooling)
  • I don't want to go to meetings. (Who is forcing you to go to meetings?)
  • No politics. I can't argue. I hate it. (OK - it's a problem, most therapists don't like the bickering.  Is throwing another org into the mix the answer?)
  • I was doing this before all these laws.(And your point is????)
  • Nobody will listen. (Well, if you can't be bothered going to meetings and getting involved in the orgs that already exist, then who are you trying to get to listen to you?  Also, there's facebook and online forums where you can shout as much as you want, lovelies.  The internet is a good thing.  You can even put feelers out to see if another organization is needed before launching one)
  • I don't want to be numbered. I don't do medical massage.(I don't know what that first sentence means, but as far as medical massage goes, neither do I.  No one is forcing anyone to do that and I don't think anyone ever will be forced to do that.)
  • Why can't we close down lousy schools? (Because it's the nature of vocational schools. Lack of educational standards is a problem , but hopefully the new alliance for MT educators will help with that one.)
  • How can schools keep making outlandish promises of income? (How can we teach people to question everything that they're told, including having realistic expectations would be a much better question - and that includes everything that they're taught at massage schools, including "Can you explain the claims that you are making about crystal therapy in more detail and show me some studies that show it works?")
  • I would sell retail at my establishment if someone would teach me how.(There isn't info on this on the internet?  You're waiting on someone holding your hand to show you how?  Wow - maybe you should work for someone else)
  • There are too many therapists. (and if we keep things the way they are, there will be more, but you seem to favor the free market system, Mike, so plenty will fail too.).
  • Why isn't there enough research yet? (In what?  Crystal therapy?  Being aware of what the MTF is doing and getting accustomed to google scholar would be a good idea - you might get some idea of how much research has been done)
  • I want portability between states. (Yep. this one actually is a good point.  Don't we all?  I think there's this thing called "politics" that might help with that one, but then the Alliance won't have any politics in it, will it?  - At least that's what you're claiming)

Mike, are you really expecting to draw people in with that list?

Also, since there has been such a history of bickering between orgs in the MT world, how can you presume that this org won't overstep what either local chapters or the other orgs are trying to fix?

I've got to admit that I thought "It's the WMF Alliance" when I first saw this. Why don't you just call it that instead?  Since you're going ahead with this no matter what people think, it would make it sound what it really is.  Making out that it has been formed independent from the WMF just smacks of sneaky tactics, Mike. 

I hope you'll consider doing that at least.

 

I'm back to lurkdom.

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 14, 2011 at 12:04am

Daniel,

I have answered the questions as well as the Alliance you sited for teachers did. They presented it the same. They are more profesionals. I'll  give you that. I am a catcher and I deal with things differently. I'm sorry, I'm short, but my explanations don't seem to be enough, no matter how they are answered. I don't do everything the way others want.

 

I will not be able to "pull in my BOD."  Think about it... if I wanted to control it, I wouldn't have made it a non-profit and I wouldn't let the general therapists vote. And if I didn't want it to cover all therapists, I would have just launched it at Festival and it would have been done for just Festival goers. Then I would have opened it up. I am trying to give as much notice as possible. The dates are online when the next steps will take place.

 


Vlad is now roadkill said:

Daniel: But does the average Therapist need such representation to better run their own business?

If you're referring to an association for those working for Chiros or in specific mods, that's different.  It's also a local issue.  Here you can work for a Chiro without a massage license and so it is being tackled at a local level.  Also, there is little education on ethics within the medical side of things, so therapists don't know when the Chiros are being unethical or when they're being taken advantage of (like if the Chiro is ripping off the insurance company and using the MT to do it).  But that's also an education issue.  There already is an Alliance set up for MT Educators (http://www.afmte.org/) .  It's new, but hopefully it will tackle the crap standards that we have at the minute and maybe we'll have different streams for different career paths, but that's not what this WMF Alliance is for, is it?  If you're going to have 2 different groups of people talking about the same things, then not only do you have a chance for clashing of directions, but you've got wasted time and resources.   

 

Mike, when you say that you don't care what it smacks of, you're really saying a lot. I care what it smacks of and I think anyone that has come on to this thread to ask you questions cares. You have had regular therapists on this thread that have been asking questions and you haven't given in to anything.  You've stood your ground.  You always do.  And you know what all therapists want, right?  And you're creating something that for the therapists and by the therapists.

I seriously hope that whoever your veterans are and whoever you pull in to your BoD cares what regular therapists think this whole things smacks of, and their first decision will be to change the name to The WMF Alliance. 

 


Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 14, 2011 at 12:14am

Julie,

We are not an association. We are an Alliance of Therapists. No research? Six years of research at Festival. I don't know how many addressed issues that are not being addressed by Associations.

 

Merge AMTA and ABMP? I don't think that's gonna happen. I don't think it would be good for massage either. I don't think "one voice" is ever the answer. I am going to do everything I can to add a voice to the mix. I hope it never gets to where it walks in lockstep with what it feels is wrong because that's the trend.

 

Massage has many voices in America and I hope the Alliance will help them be heard as well.

 

 

Julie Onofrio said:

Yes I totally had the same questions when reading that on the website...

 

Then your first list of things to do is teach MT sales- are you serious?  Is that the job of an association?

 

Most of the things that are listed are already being addressed by ABMP or AMTA - both have CE classes.  I know ABMP has a massive marketing section to teach people 'sales' - Actually sales has nothing to do with being a massage therapist.  People know when they are being sold to.  It is about building relationships. That would require that each person enter into psychotherapy to deal with their self esteem issues and why they don't like to talk about themselves and promote their business.

 

The thing that actually bugs me the most about this new alliance is that there hasn't been any research to see if it is needed by the profession and there hasn't been any research to see what is actually needed.  One guy hearing stories at a festival that he puts one is not accurate data.  Maybe you should call it "Mike Hinkles big massage alliance". 

This is how the NCBTMB was started - someone or a small group from AMTA decided they wanted to have an entrance exam for AMTA.  Without any research or studies it all of a sudden turned into the NCBTMB and look where they are now.  They do not understand the profession from what I see and never have.

 

I personally would love to see AMTA and ABMP merge in some way or work together on issues that we are faced with.

 

Some of the things that we are currently faced with as a profession is being recognized as a health care profession.  Changing how MT are seen by TV shows like the View will only happen when we do that.  Just complaining to them that we don't like the way they talk about us won't cut it. 

 

One guy going off to start an alliance because he thinks it is needed is well very unprofessional.  The associations that are already set up are very open to input and helping MT if they would only ask instead of sitting in their empty rooms wondering how to do sales.

 

What does the profession really, reaaaalllly need- answer that before you even start another group but as you said - it is already too late.  You want to do what YOU want to do which is part of the whole problem in the massage profession.

 

Julie

 

Vlad is now roadkill said:

I'm coming out of lurkdom to ask some questions only:

 

When you say it's for massage therapists by massage therapists, does that include MT teachers?

Are your "veterans" teachers or practitioners?

 

On your site you have a list of issues that you regard as things that are of importance to MTs, which I presume are the main things that this new alliance will address:


  • I just want to be left alone to massage. (This is an issue?  Really?  Who isn't left alone?)
  • There are too many rules I don't know about. (Well, there's this thing called the internet where you can get a list of rules if you weren't aware of them and you should have been shown where to find them in your schooling)
  • I don't want to go to meetings. (Who is forcing you to go to meetings?)
  • No politics. I can't argue. I hate it. (OK - it's a problem, most therapists don't like the bickering.  Is throwing another org into the mix the answer?)
  • I was doing this before all these laws.(And your point is????)
  • Nobody will listen. (Well, if you can't be bothered going to meetings and getting involved in the orgs that already exist, then who are you trying to get to listen to you?  Also, there's facebook and online forums where you can shout as much as you want, lovelies.  The internet is a good thing.  You can even put feelers out to see if another organization is needed before launching one)
  • I don't want to be numbered. I don't do medical massage.(I don't know what that first sentence means, but as far as medical massage goes, neither do I.  No one is forcing anyone to do that and I don't think anyone ever will be forced to do that.)
  • Why can't we close down lousy schools? (Because it's the nature of vocational schools. Lack of educational standards is a problem , but hopefully the new alliance for MT educators will help with that one.)
  • How can schools keep making outlandish promises of income? (How can we teach people to question everything that they're told, including having realistic expectations would be a much better question - and that includes everything that they're taught at massage schools, including "Can you explain the claims that you are making about crystal therapy in more detail and show me some studies that show it works?")
  • I would sell retail at my establishment if someone would teach me how.(There isn't info on this on the internet?  You're waiting on someone holding your hand to show you how?  Wow - maybe you should work for someone else)
  • There are too many therapists. (and if we keep things the way they are, there will be more, but you seem to favor the free market system, Mike, so plenty will fail too.).
  • Why isn't there enough research yet? (In what?  Crystal therapy?  Being aware of what the MTF is doing and getting accustomed to google scholar would be a good idea - you might get some idea of how much research has been done)
  • I want portability between states. (Yep. this one actually is a good point.  Don't we all?  I think there's this thing called "politics" that might help with that one, but then the Alliance won't have any politics in it, will it?  - At least that's what you're claiming)

Mike, are you really expecting to draw people in with that list?

Also, since there has been such a history of bickering between orgs in the MT world, how can you presume that this org won't overstep what either local chapters or the other orgs are trying to fix?

I've got to admit that I thought "It's the WMF Alliance" when I first saw this. Why don't you just call it that instead?  Since you're going ahead with this no matter what people think, it would make it sound what it really is.  Making out that it has been formed independent from the WMF just smacks of sneaky tactics, Mike. 

I hope you'll consider doing that at least.

 

I'm back to lurkdom.

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Erica Olson on February 14, 2011 at 12:31am

But . . . wait . . .

 

You are launching at the Festival. 

 

And, at this point, the voting is just for Festival goers, as in you have to be physically present at the Festival in order to vote for the BOD.

 

At some point after that, will distance voting be allowed?  Wouldn't that be opening it up?

 

E.

 

Mike Hinkle said:

Think about it... if I wanted to control it, I wouldn't have made it a non-profit and I wouldn't let the general therapists vote. And if I didn't want it to cover all therapists, I would have just launched it at Festival and it would have been done for just Festival goers. Then I would have opened it up.
Permalink Reply by Erica Olson on February 14, 2011 at 12:35am

What do you consider the difference between an association and an alliance?  Looking at online dictionaries and thesaurus, "alliance" is listed as a synonym for "association."

 

And, as Julie said, six years of wandering around chit-chatting with a self-selecting group does not constitute market research.

 

E.


Mike Hinkle said:

Julie,

We are not an association. We are an Alliance of Therapists. No research? Six years of research at Festival. I don't know how many addressed issues that are not being addressed by Associations.

 

Merge AMTA and ABMP? I don't think that's gonna happen. I don't think it would be good for massage either. I don't think "one voice" is ever the answer. I am going to do everything I can to add a voice to the mix. I hope it never gets to where it walks in lockstep with what it feels is wrong because that's the trend.

 

Massage has many voices in America and I hope the Alliance will help them be heard as well.

 

<deletia>
Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 14, 2011 at 1:24am

I hope they get loads of people and a secure server and allow online voting if it is secure. But it won't be me making that decision.... the BOD will.

Erica Olson said:

But . . . wait . . .

 

You are launching at the Festival. 

 

And, at this point, the voting is just for Festival goers, as in you have to be physically present at the Festival in order to vote for the BOD.

 

At some point after that, will distance voting be allowed?  Wouldn't that be opening it up?

 

E.

 

Mike Hinkle said:

Think about it... if I wanted to control it, I wouldn't have made it a non-profit and I wouldn't let the general therapists vote. And if I didn't want it to cover all therapists, I would have just launched it at Festival and it would have been done for just Festival goers. Then I would have opened it up.
Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 14, 2011 at 1:40am

An Association for a large part has it's hands tied because it depends on insurance to be a big part of it's program. We don't sell insurance, so more time to work on problems for therapists but less headaches that come with insurance. I think that will give the BOD time to focus on trying to promote massage to the general public.

 

And I think people will understand that this group is here to address issues that Associations won't because they may lose membership. Example... Elizabeth Hasselhoff and David Letterman. Many felt there should have been a stronger response to their statements. The Alliance can stand up for therapists and the BOD doesn't have to worry about getting in trouble or losing membership because the membership generated the effort of the BOD. Just a small sample.

 

Somethings will be similar and need teamwork. Some will stand alone. This is different.

Erica Olson said:

What do you consider the difference between an association and an alliance?  Looking at online dictionaries and thesaurus, "alliance" is listed as a synonym for "association."

 

And, as Julie said, six years of wandering around chit-chatting with a self-selecting group does not constitute market research.

 

E.


Mike Hinkle said:

Julie,

We are not an association. We are an Alliance of Therapists. No research? Six years of research at Festival. I don't know how many addressed issues that are not being addressed by Associations.

 

Merge AMTA and ABMP? I don't think that's gonna happen. I don't think it would be good for massage either. I don't think "one voice" is ever the answer. I am going to do everything I can to add a voice to the mix. I hope it never gets to where it walks in lockstep with what it feels is wrong because that's the trend.

 

Massage has many voices in America and I hope the Alliance will help them be heard as well.

 

<deletia>
Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on February 14, 2011 at 2:04am
The Associations have used insurance as a lure to membership but that has nothing to do with being an association.

▶ Reply to Discussion

RSS

© 2024   Created by ABMP.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service

Sign in to chat!