Why Are We Following? America Should Be Leading!!!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Susan Chapelle on February 17, 2011 at 9:09pm

Thank you Laura,  I agree. I came to this site unfortunately because some posts from fellow researchers I work with were laughing about the conversations and arguments people were having.  We are all in agreement about the red neck nature of the site, and it is bad for the profession to argue and pitch countries against each other when we can all help each other out. I found myself somehow sucked in when the attack on Bodhi, who has done so much for our profession in BC, were going on.  I am out, unfortunately.  Nice to meet you!
Laura Allen said:

I appreciate ABMP providing this site. I must say, though, that I avoid posting on here very much because of the tendency for "conversation" on here to deteriorate into personal attacks.

 

I don't know of any country or locale that has a "perfect" system. Perhaps there's no such thing. I do, however, admire Canada's provinces that have set a high standard. I don't think there is any such a thing as too much education. I personally would like to see the educational standards raised in the US.  NY, Nebraska and PR all require 1000 hours, and the rest are below that. There are still 8 states that have no regulation at all, and any Tom, D*** or Harry can hold themselves out to be a massage therapist, which is a sad state of affairs, as it is in any place where there's no regulation.

 

I am always in favor of a healthy "let's agree to disagree" type of discussion. I am not in favor of people being insulting to each other. I also tend to listen to people who are much better educated than I am...some of their knowledge and expertise might rub off on me and I'm always grateful for that. I don't refuse to listen to another person's point of view, or automatically discount it because it doesn't agree with my own, regardless of their experience and education.

 

There is not a national standard here. The NCBTMB does approve of continuing education providers, but a number of the states have their own approval process. The FSMTB would like to promote portability, but the states that have better requirements are not going to dumb it down for the rest of them. The US is in fact just as fractured as Canada, if not more so. There is a big variance in requirements. There is a lot of variance in the legal titles you must use from state to state. There is variance in license fees, entry-level education, CE requirements. We're hardly unified. The Canadian provinces are big, compared to most of our states...several states would fit into one of their provinces, for the most part. COMTA's hour standard for accredited schools was chosen based entirely on the fact that you cannot get federal financial aid for a program that is not at least 600 hours and didn't have diddly squat to do with raising a standard for education's sake. There is no one voice, and there never will be, here, there, or anywhere else, at least in my lifetime.

 

We can all pick each other apart and do the "mine is better than yours." I don't have the time or inclination for that, so I'll go back to lurking around here once in awhile to see what people are up to. I hope you all follow your own path, do the best you can do, and are successful and prosperous, whatever that means to you.

 

My father was born in Hamilton, Ontario, which makes me an honorary Canadian, eh?

 

Peace on Earth.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Susan Chapelle on February 17, 2011 at 9:23pm

The alliance of rubbers.  ;-))  Fun reading all the replies.

"Raising standards will more problematic than folks are considering" 

I can't believe that someone said that out loud.  Why not trust that the American public can sort it out? People are smart, even Americans. (sorry.. I couldn't resist).  Even though your grammar is incorrect, I am quite sure that just like here, when people go to a spa for a spa therapist, they get 1000 hours of feel good rubbing which is still more than most of your American therapists training.  If people have health insurance, or a doctors referral, they get to come and pay 100.80 for a registered massage therapist to asses their health concerns and help them get better, through assessment and thorough knowledge and base in pathology and an ability to actually read and understand underlying conditions, medications, contraindications, and how to treat.  I think American therapy is on the cusp of something amazing.  Your country does amazing things to fund research in CAM modalities.  Our country does not, at all.  I travel to the states to work in the universities to understand the effectiveness of visceral treatments.  I am thankful for NCCAM and all of the AMTA research initiatives.  It is excellent.  Perhaps you should all forget about your "alliance" and put your energies into helping the AMTA, doing some effective research, or contributing in an effective and productive way.  

 

Hey does your massage festival have a ferris wheel?

 

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 17, 2011 at 9:40pm

Susan, your words to Laura above are a lie. You weren't somehow dragged into anything. YOU are causing a larger divide than your hero, Bodhi! Your country is so fractured. 3 out of 10 provinces agree with you and no territories. You don't speak with one voice. Including the territories you puny plan only gets 23% of Canada.

 

I know you want me to forget this. THAT IS YOUR PLAN! Not gonna happen Suzy! So do what you said you were going to do in the previous post and "BE OUT!"

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 17, 2011 at 10:19pm

ALL RMT is YOU!!! YOU control who is called a Massage Therapist in three areas that's it. If what you are saying is true, how are there massage schools releasing people to work on the public with 250 hours, in Canada? First, you said everyone agreed. Canada is united. Now, you say they agree to a document, but don't adhere to it.

 

You have repeatedly said BC 3000 others 2200 to be a MT and everyone else has to get 1000 and they are a spa therapists. Today I start searching and find schools kicking out students for work at 250.

 

That's what we have here Bodhi. NY's 1000 represents you. 

Most represent the states have 500 which represents your 1000 group.

And your 250 schools is our Calif. at 150.

 

It's the same thing, your group just grabbed the mt name. We are all called Massage Therapists here.

You call us fractured, but won't accept that you are.

 

All those hours are supposed to make you a more professional person? Please be professional and let us decide what is best for us. Yes, massage is an intenational profession but so is medicine and I don't see the West listening to the East. Different people settle things differently.

 

Bodhi, we don't need you. You have said you were going away and you are still here arguing for naught. I don't care what system you have just put in place. So please stop trying to get me to understand. It has gone from the Canada that I thought was so far ahead of us to being the weak thing I have come to understand. You have hurt the image a lot of us had about Canada's massage program, not helped.

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 17, 2011 at 11:00pm

Bodhi, nothing about you is funny. You are supposedly a leader in Canada. Who is trying to influence many aspects in our decision making. It started with you making divisive remarks about the Alliance and has gone downhill from there.

 

You, imho, are irrelevant to our problems. You just keep making yourself look worse with your attacks on our system "back here in the dark ages".... right? Isn't that where you said you thought where I was trying to keep us? Oh yeah, another joke right. You can just escape from your remarks with that quip right? Get over yourself Bodhi.

 

You can't get past the facts... Less than 25% of your country has the hours you want us to. Finish getting your country in "lock step" before turning to ours. Thank you! 

Bodhi Haraldsson said:

I posted a dear John letter to you. It was a joke, apparently you didn't get it. 

Mike Hinkle said:

ALL RMT is YOU!!! YOU control who is called a Massage Therapist in three areas that's it. If what you are saying is true, how are there massage schools releasing people to work on the public with 250 hours, in Canada? First, you said everyone agreed. Canada is united. Now, you say they agree to a document, but don't adhere to it.

 

You have repeatedly said BC 3000 others 2200 to be a MT and everyone else has to get 1000 and they are a spa therapists. Today I start searching and find schools kicking out students for work at 250.

 

That's what we have here Bodhi. NY's 1000 represents you. 

Most represent the states have 500 which represents your 1000 group.

And your 250 schools is our Calif. at 150.

 

It's the same thing, your group just grabbed the mt name. We are all called Massage Therapists here.

You call us fractured, but won't accept that you are.

 

All those hours are supposed to make you a more professional person? Please be professional and let us decide what is best for us. Yes, massage is an intenational profession but so is medicine and I don't see the West listening to the East. Different people settle things differently.

 

Bodhi, we don't need you. You have said you were going away and you are still here arguing for naught. I don't care what system you have just put in place. So please stop trying to get me to understand. It has gone from the Canada that I thought was so far ahead of us to being the weak thing I have come to understand. You have hurt the image a lot of us had about Canada's massage program, not helped.

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 17, 2011 at 11:12pm

More fracturing of the profession down south. Not good :-(    

 

That is your post!!!

 

I think anyone reading it, gets ". Did I ever say oh you bad american you should listen to us great Canucks, no never." from that.

 

Bodhi no one is looking for anyone to latch onto. I have done my best to get rid of you. You are not anyone I wish to ask advice of in the least. You are trying to impose your will on therapist discussing an issue that is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! Did you get it that time? You have to be a Massage Therapist in the states... so please exit and work on your  75% of your country that surely needs you!

 

 

 

Bodhi Haraldsson said:

My initial comment to was why? why another organisation. Did I ever say oh you bad american you should listen to us great Canucks, no never. I asked a question and gave examples of other fractured and some not fractured professions.

As did many other folks here in this forum. Apparently you needed a straw man to kick around, so you latched on to me.

Bodhi Haraldsson said:

Its very simple Mike, here massage in not regulated Massage Therapy is. Why should all body work be regulated? I guess we have a better system of free enterprise than you do. Any one can do massage, the health care portion is regulated. And so it should be. 

Mike I just cant get enough of you, its so interesting to see how many twists and turns you can produce.

Permalink Reply by Ravensara Travillian on February 18, 2011 at 1:48am

I have done my best to get rid of you.

At least you're being honest.

How can you claim to represent *all* MTs in that case, though?

Maybe the profession has already split, and we just need to acknowledge that.

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 18, 2011 at 2:01am

I have been honest through this effort. I never said I represent anyone. I said the MTAA will represent and give a voice to it's membership that will start forming on Sat., July 16, 2011 in Cullowhee, NC. No one ever said we would be speaking for *all* MTs.

 

NOBODY speaks for ALL MT's in Canada or America!!!!

 

This doesn't split any profession. Bout 10 folks arguing can split a profession?.... you funny. I know you want to split my group, but that's why I said I want the heat and will keep it off you guys to my fellow therapists that know what I am doing. Ya'll can fuss till then if that's what you wish to do. Look up "fussin" and you'll probably see my name.

 

This conversation had fallen away and now you are trying to crank it up again... about 10 minutes later than I expected. So, did I answer your question or did you have another? 

Permalink Reply by Ravensara Travillian on February 18, 2011 at 2:19am

 

From your site:

 

Its mission is to serve as a voice, advocate and resource for the massage community, regardless of affiliation.

 

Yet you call those of us who advocate evidence-based information sources and transparency "harmful".

 

Perhaps you do simply not consider us part of the community, then, as you clearly aren't interested in representing us.

 

 

I know you want to split my group, but that's why I said I want the heat and will keep it off you guys to my fellow therapists that know what I am doing.

 

(emphasis added) I thought it wasn't your group, but the community's?

 

But in any case, no, you do not know what I want, and it's pretty ballsy to claim you do.

 

I'm not the least bit interested in splitting your group. What I'm interested in is when MTs do the right thing, that they not get attacked for it.

 

"Right thing" here meaning asking normal due diligence questions about an organization that is asking for their personal information and their good name, as well as grappling with evidence and standards in order to find out the best way to serve our clients.

 

It's possible to say that you don't agree with the Canadian model without going on a jihad about it.

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 18, 2011 at 2:40am

Let me break it down for you. Maybe it's too hard.

 

Its mission is to serve as "a" voice, advocate and resource for the massage community, regardless of "affiliation."

 

A is singular, usually means one of more than one. If I meant "THE" I would have said it.

 

Affiliations are associations or modalities or any aspect of massage that is out there. I don't think we should exclude people that are performing massage legally in their area from attaining membership. It doesn't matter if they are from any group as long as they are massage therapists. And you don't have to sign a loyalty statement to serve.

 

You (EBP) only become harmful, when you think that that is all there is and "SHOULD" be. And that anyone doing something that isn't EB or is not using research every time is wrong. You have not done enough research. There are those, amongst you, that have already declared certain modalities fake, labeled modalities quackery and have spent no time researching for the truth. So yeah, you can say I am pulling a mini- jihad.

 

No modality is going off the block with me here, until you can prove it should be. Now, with that said .... bring on Moyer with his "can't prove a negative campaign" again. See I know the routine and it ain't workin this atime!!

 

 

Permalink Reply by Ravensara Travillian on February 18, 2011 at 3:18am

A is singular, usually means one of more than one. If I meant "THE" I would have said it.

You did: "the massage community".

I don't think we should exclude people that are performing massage legally in their area from attaining membership. It doesn't matter if they are from any group as long as they are massage therapists. And you don't have to sign a loyalty statement to serve.

Yet you rushed to declare me ineligible for membership, just because I live part of the time in Cambridgeshire, and then to declare that you didn't intend to answer my questions as a result.

Why the rush to exclude me before you checked out the facts?

And why are questions, to you, only valid if they're asked by people you approve of?

So yeah, you can say I am pulling a mini- jihad.

So if someone thinks a jihad is an inappropriate way for so-called "professionals" to behave, would it be accurate to say that you don't consider them part of "the massage community"? Because if we are part of it, how does your jihad give us a voice?

No modality is going off the block with me here, until you can prove it should be.

I don't think it's a question of what's going to happen, so much as what's already happened. I think history's made that decision already, and I think the quality of the "dialogue" at this professional site is a symptom of groups that have almost nothing in common trying to force themselves into a common label.

Now, with that said .... bring on Moyer with his "can't prove a negative campaign" again. See I know the routine and it ain't workin this atime!!

Is your organization also giving a voice to those in "the" massage community who think that it's inappropriate, unprofessional, and not in keeping with the spirit of massage to publicly threaten to knock Chris Moyer's head off, because that's how you and your homies in NC roll?

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 18, 2011 at 3:51am

Well Raven, are we not part of the massage community as well?

I rushed nothing. On FB, you are listed as living in Europe, not part time. I explained that.

When did I say your questions weren't valid? I'm answering questions at 4:42 am to you right now... does that mean I approve of you or not?

 

My jihad is of your desciption ok? Let's keep it straight who described me as having anything to do with the word, ok? How some one feels about my or your behaviour will depend upon our actions. Like twice I have tried to put this issue to rest tonight by going into back files and talking about different issues and you continue to pull it out onto the forum. I am not pushing this issue you are.

 

This site is fantastic. It has enabled so many to learn so much. I will holler forever before any modality goes away. Massage history will be recorded so no madality like Reiki or any modality is ever threatened again. Had it not been for Madam Takata, Reiki would probably be gone. Never again.

 

Yes, the massage label carries with it lots of "symptoms of groups that have almost nothing in common trying to force themselves into a common label called Massage Therapists." And this patchwork quilt of massage therapists are the best in the world. We already are the most regulated couhtry in the world with 81 % of the country regulated. We include about every modality that exist and people love their work. Now there are some issues that many feel need addressed that aren't being to their liking and they think they can make a difference. They are going to get that chance. Nothing you or the others are doing is going to stop it.

 

Now you insult an entire state by saying "homies?" How can you say I'm unprofessional for standing my ground about something that will help the profession and hundreds agree with and you can call therapists in North Carolina homies and that is professional?

 

Yes, even as rude as you are, you can be a member because you are a therapist. If you can produce a US massage license and proof of who you are, we will check with the state, verify your credentials and you can be a member. That's how we roll. Even Moyer gets to keep his head, see?

 

 

 

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