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Response to "Knot in a muscle' post
Mr. Gordon J. Wallis in his post “Knot in a muscle’ raised very important topic and it seems that members expressed variety of opinions. Considering the importance of the subject I decided to open separate discussion and put everything in the scientific perspective.
There are two types of 'knots' you may experience in your practice.
First is called hypertonus and it is usually associated with active trigger point(s). The correctly used trigger point therapy protocol will be able to completely eliminate this abnormality. The second type of the 'knots' is called myogelosis and it is irreversible degeneration of the muscle fibers you feel like 'marbles' in the tissue.
The core of myogelosis will stay with your clients for the rest of the life if it is already formed. However by itself it is usually painless if there is no direct pressure applied to it. At the same time uncontrolled myogelosis is very painful and responsible for a lot of tension because core is direct cause of the neighboring hypertonuses to form around it. This drives your clients crazy.
By the way incorrectly applied Trigger Point Therapy in the form of senseless application of pressure without finding the Entrance into the Trigger Point, using Compass Technique, Stop and Go Approach etc. is directly responsible for the excessive damage of the muscle fibers in the area of hypertonus and later formation of the myogelosis there.
If readers would like to learn how hypertonus, trigger point and myogelosis form, how to differentiate and diagnose them as well as how to treat them correctly using scientifically sounded protocol of Trigger Point Therapy please read our three part article on Trigger Point Therapy in
March/April: http://scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/0903/toc.aspx
May/June: http://scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/0905/toc.aspx
July/August: http://scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/0907/toc.aspx
2009 issues of Journal of Massage Science. This article will answer ALL of your questions in every detail.
If you read the article and need any clarifications you may post your questions here and I will be happy to answer them.
Sincerely Dr. Ross Turchaninov
Views: 7208
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on
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Funny thing, this-- several times in class and elsewhere I have expressed doubt about energy work-- I mean, I can't see touch or taste the energy fields!. But... but I wrote the other day about an experience I had last week with a student trade off client. And tonight on science channel I watched Through Wormhole story about 6th sense, so I am considerably less skeptical than I was.
Scientists used scientific instruments to demonstrate that mass thought can be directed; that people really can tell when they are being stared at with amazing accuracy. I don't know what was going on with my trade off partner, but when I closed my eyes and got into the tissue mentally, a HT spot that I had been trying to relax for ten minutes suddenly melted--she remarked that my hands suddenly got warmer. So, heck yes, I am less skeptical.
Therese Schwartz said:Gary, I'm not claiming to know how energy work actually works - it's related to the electrical and electro-magnetic systems of our bodies but I don't understand it all. I've read over and over that if we want to understand energy work we should learn about quantum physics. What I did want to tell you is that in the 1970's Dr. John Upledger, DO and founder of the Upledger Institute (CranioSacral Therapy and much more) did a lot of testing of energy work. What he found is that it's scientifically provable that the intention of the therapist has a direct result on the electrical resistance of the tissues of the client/patient. When the therapist has a neutral intent, the resistance is somewhat less than normal. When the therapist has the intention of offering energy to the tissues and allowing the tissues to do with that energy what they need to, the electrical resistance drops to almost nothing. In that place, the tissues release. They found that the physicist in the next room reading the ohm meter could predict with 100% accuracy when the client was having a release. Thought you'd find that interesting!
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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Gary.this discussion was and is about trigger point therapy concept that we proposed in article as well some stuff that Gordon claimed .Chinese medicine and energy work example it just example how to call treatments name and not to make up some ridiculous examples. I don't know who is Dr.Kaufman is and what he does. Only today first-time Gordon mentioned his name. Again we didn't discuss his methodology because no one did not introduce it. But in any case what I wrote(please read careful). Information below is applicable as well as normal to any claims at professional discussions. I mean if one cannot explain it just say it. Something like” It does work but I don't know how.. Please read again my last post. Most likely it will answer your question.
This is extraction from my previous post :”Trigger point therapy is name of separate discipline which is well researched and clinically proven. In article we provided detailed explanation as well proposed techniques. You are welcome to read it again. If somebody claiming that he/she providing trigger point therapy differently and it better way than established classical trigger point therapy than one must explain mechanism etc. if one successfully addressing disorders, not trying to make up some theory , telling honestly that she,/he cannot explain how it works, it is difficult to argue with clinical outcome. Maybe Gordon having this gifts but as he explain how he does it, he for sure do not providing trigger point therapy, but trying readers to believe that applying light touch during 20 seconds is a regular adequate trigger point therapy and is a result of triggering clasp knife reflex which is ridiculous claim and explanation.”
Gary W Addis said:
Boris, just a minor point. Not meant to be criticism of you or anyone else.
In the comment below, you mention the efficacy of Eastern modalities including energy work. I don't claim to know anything about Eastern techniques. However, I don't believe anyone has yet to explain scientifically how the energy modalities work--yet, many many many MTs attest that they do work. Kaufman is a doctor, and has been documenting his successes, but as yet I haven't seen anything to show how he gets the positive effects. Doesn't mean that it doesn't work, merely that you and I don't understand it yet. The technique Daniel mentioned, Guasha, and the one mentioned by Massage Gnome, Graston, appear to this casual reader to be kinda brutal, but both Massage Gnome and Daniel (both of whom I respect) believe wholeheartedly in the techniques. Doesn't mean they are brutal as I first thought, or that they don't work. I hope to learn everything about everything.
Boris Prilutsky said:Dear readers.
I would like just to summarize a bit this discussion. There is many different scientifically developed as well not scientifically developed methodologies of treatment. For example Chinese medicine, energy work, different techniques of body/ mind medicine etc.
I personally accepting and believe in most of this methodologies, because A) they side effects free B) in many cases helping people to get rid of different disorders. Trigger point therapy is name of separate discipline which is well researched and clinically proven. In article we provided detailed explanation as well proposed techniques. You are welcome to read it again. If somebody claiming that he/she providing trigger point therapy differently and it better way than established classical trigger point therapy than one must explain mechanism etc. if one successfully addressing disorders, not trying to make up some theory , telling honestly that she,/he cannot explain how it works, it is difficult to argue with clinical outcome. Maybe Gordon having this gifts but as he explain how he does it, he for sure do not providing trigger point therapy, but trying readers to believe that applying light touch during 20 seconds is a regular adequate trigger point therapy and is a result of triggering clasp knife reflex which is ridiculous claim and explanation. I passionately love our craft therefore couldn't allow to this wrong information being not questioned. I mean to be politically correct and to stay a site. It would be very wrong on my site to allow this false information not to be challenge . In any case I believe that in the end we all did learn from this discussion.Thanks.
Best wishes.
Boris
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Boris, Gordon isn't claiming some special gift, merely knowledge of this PNT technique developed by chiropractor Kaufman. THE PNT website is overflowing with testimonial but no demo of how it is done. Kaufman charges a fee for teaching it, but inevitably like with all other labeled modalities in usage today, someone will learn the technique and give it away with a youtube video, then the whole world will have access to it. Does it work? His clients and MTs he has taught believe that it does. If I could experience it then I would know for myself whether it does. Until I know one way or the other, I try to keep an open mind. I hope it does work, actually. I hope it works so well that it makes an MTs work easier and more beneficial to our clients.
Usually in school or here in my little home clinic (spare bedroom, where I work on friends & family no charge), I work on one, sometimes two bodies a day. Thursday night I performed two full body deep tissue massages back to back. Whew! Massage for 3 hours is a lot more tiring than I've been used to. Giving up to ten in a day must be really really tiring.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary.this discussion was and is about trigger point therapy concept that we proposed in article as well some stuff that Gordon claimed .Chinese medicine and energy work example it just example how to call treatments name and not to make up some ridiculous examples. I don't know who is Dr.Kaufman is and what he does. Only today first-time Gordon mentioned his name. Again we didn't discuss his methodology because no one did not introduce it. But in any case what I wrote(please read careful). Information below is applicable as well as normal to any claims at professional discussions. I mean if one cannot explain it just say it. Something like” It does work but I don't know how.. Please read again my last post. Most likely it will answer your question.
This is extraction from my previous post :”Trigger point therapy is name of separate discipline which is well researched and clinically proven. In article we provided detailed explanation as well proposed techniques. You are welcome to read it again. If somebody claiming that he/she providing trigger point therapy differently and it better way than established classical trigger point therapy than one must explain mechanism etc. if one successfully addressing disorders, not trying to make up some theory , telling honestly that she,/he cannot explain how it works, it is difficult to argue with clinical outcome. Maybe Gordon having this gifts but as he explain how he does it, he for sure do not providing trigger point therapy, but trying readers to believe that applying light touch during 20 seconds is a regular adequate trigger point therapy and is a result of triggering clasp knife reflex which is ridiculous claim and explanation.”
Gary W Addis said:
Boris, just a minor point. Not meant to be criticism of you or anyone else.
In the comment below, you mention the efficacy of Eastern modalities including energy work. I don't claim to know anything about Eastern techniques. However, I don't believe anyone has yet to explain scientifically how the energy modalities work--yet, many many many MTs attest that they do work. Kaufman is a doctor, and has been documenting his successes, but as yet I haven't seen anything to show how he gets the positive effects. Doesn't mean that it doesn't work, merely that you and I don't understand it yet. The technique Daniel mentioned, Guasha, and the one mentioned by Massage Gnome, Graston, appear to this casual reader to be kinda brutal, but both Massage Gnome and Daniel (both of whom I respect) believe wholeheartedly in the techniques. Doesn't mean they are brutal as I first thought, or that they don't work. I hope to learn everything about everything.
Boris Prilutsky said:Dear readers.
I would like just to summarize a bit this discussion. There is many different scientifically developed as well not scientifically developed methodologies of treatment. For example Chinese medicine, energy work, different techniques of body/ mind medicine etc.
I personally accepting and believe in most of this methodologies, because A) they side effects free B) in many cases helping people to get rid of different disorders. Trigger point therapy is name of separate discipline which is well researched and clinically proven. In article we provided detailed explanation as well proposed techniques. You are welcome to read it again. If somebody claiming that he/she providing trigger point therapy differently and it better way than established classical trigger point therapy than one must explain mechanism etc. if one successfully addressing disorders, not trying to make up some theory , telling honestly that she,/he cannot explain how it works, it is difficult to argue with clinical outcome. Maybe Gordon having this gifts but as he explain how he does it, he for sure do not providing trigger point therapy, but trying readers to believe that applying light touch during 20 seconds is a regular adequate trigger point therapy and is a result of triggering clasp knife reflex which is ridiculous claim and explanation. I passionately love our craft therefore couldn't allow to this wrong information being not questioned. I mean to be politically correct and to stay a site. It would be very wrong on my site to allow this false information not to be challenge . In any case I believe that in the end we all did learn from this discussion.Thanks.
Best wishes.
Boris
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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
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The evil one is here again... the blasphemer .. run , run children... The one who claims to eliminate trigger points not using the classical way ....lol I threaten you that much?
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http://www.canadianchiropractor.ca/content/view/1023/ This really does work. Boris, what you think you know about trigger points is like back in the stone age compared to this stuff... You dont know everything..sorry to tell you that. End of discussion.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on
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Gordon,
thanks for the link, if possible, in future, would you make this info available earlier on in the discussion? a great deal of miss understanding about the technique could have been avoided.
This link should help many to understand its mechanism and judge for themselves, its potential to aliviate trigger points.
thanks
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://www.canadianchiropractor.ca/content/view/1023/ This really does work. Boris, what you think you know about trigger points is like back in the stone age compared to this stuff... You dont know everything..sorry to tell you that. End of discussion.
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Ive called several very experienced massage therapists.. sorry scroll down this page , for the rest of my message... some how the scrolling got off
I called several experienced therapists by phone..gave them the website.. none were interested.. One got angry and called me a lire con artist...
None were interested..Even other therapists in my community.... So I came in here and wanted people to know that Im a serious massage therapist that has a lot of experience.. And after that.. Tell people about PNT...But after my definition of a trigger point. I still cant see whats so dangerous about it? Boris freaked out and got personal...I decided to defend myself. So the link came out now. But Ive had a couple people a while back, from this site ask me for more information when they heard what I said. And I gave then the website. Anyway.. thanks for never attacking me.. lol
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The link came out as fast as I could get it out...I mean, How come Im the only massage therapist telling other massage therapists about PNT? Interesting huh?
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Boris.. one last thing...Remember that clip that you kept saying has nothing what so ever to do with trigger points.That you are slamming me for....Let me explain it too you now... That clip clearly shows calciums important role in muscle contraction.. And it clearly shows that the sarcoplasmic recticulum contorles the flow of calcium in the muscle cell. So by putting that information together (easy) , one can easily figure out that if somehow the sarcoplasmic recticulum were to get damaged, calcium would flood the cell causing contraction.. Very easy to understand how I came up with my trigger point explanation.given the information in that clip. And besides that, if you really understood what you read ??.. .All that information is within Travels Book. You just have to think a tiny bit....Knowledge is more then the mere accumulation of facts, and spitting them out again.. Real knowledge is looking at the facts, and figuring things out yourself.
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Gordon. I never said that you are evil .and no one threaten others, at professional discussion.and we should try to manage it in professional manner.Dr.Ross has started discussion by offering article which is scientific review of trigger points. Please read your posts again. Most of them contradicting themselves and sometimes containing ridiculous claims like your way to treat it by triggering clasp knife reflex .
When I, either Dr.Ross tried to talk to your reasons, the answer was something like:” you walking on crutches, I put my hands for 20 seconds and you in great health”show me one of your posts where you offer definition of trigger points, morphology etc.????????? direct me to one of your posts were you explaining the mechanism of your treatment of trigger point therapy???????
In regards of link to Dr. Kaufman website. I couldn't find no definition of trigger points, morphology etc. as well as no explanation in regards of mechanism / treatment of trigger point therapy just claims of great success. I mean no explanation what to do either. Please compare information that we offered at our article with what kind of information offering Dr. Kaufman’s website. Exceptions of his ridiculous confusing and uneducated statement which is: THE GOLGI TENDON ORGAN REFLEX When a muscle is under too heavy a load, it relaxes completely or "collapses." This is an inherent guarding mechanism so that, for instance, if one tries to lift more weight than the arm can support, it doesn’t tear the biceps muscle. This reflex is variously known as the clasp knife reflex, the Golgi tendon organ reflex (GTO), or the inverse myotatic reflex1,6. “
He Wrote“This reflex is variously known as the clasp knife reflex”.Gordon. this reflex can be triggered only with patients who suffering from difficult neurological disease. Stretch reflex and clasp knife reflex is two absolutely different mechanisms.
And by the way if you will find on this website explanation and definition of trigger points, morphology etc. as well as explanation in regards of mechanism / treatment of trigger point therapy please offer this information. Even these discussions handled ridiculously I'm not regreting to participate
because I believe it is educational and especially not to fall in for this ridiculous websites like Dr. Kaufman’s.
Gordon J. Wallis said:
The evil one is here again... the blasphemer .. run , run children... The one who claims to eliminate trigger points not using the classical way ....lol I threaten you that much?
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I will attach a copy of my trigger point explanation that seems to bother you so much? lol Cant figure out why? And how I use my trigger point knowledge at work...only thing is i left out using the neurological reflex technique to remove the trigger point..... but thats my methodology...I dont see any problem with it? lol my goodness...That is clear for all to read...I dont see why you are against those two attachments? Thats what i do...??? Six of massage yesterday... six hours the day before.. today I only work a half day.. 3 hours are booked....Im a professional massage therapist Boris..and I can usually make trigger points go away with only a light touch or pull.. almost instantly... Why would I come in here and lie? Im just telling people what I do..Thats it.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Gordon. I never said that you are evil .and no one threaten others, at professional discussion.and we should try to manage it in professional manner.Dr.Ross has started discussion by offering article which is scientific review of trigger points. Please read your posts again. Most of them contradicting themselves and sometimes containing ridiculous claims like your way to treat it by triggering clasp knife reflex .
When I, either Dr.Ross tried to talk to your reasons, the answer was something like:” you walking on crutches, I put my hands for 20 seconds and you in great health”show me one of your posts where you offer definition of trigger points, morphology etc.????????? direct me to one of your posts were you explaining the mechanism of your treatment of trigger point therapy???????
In regards of link to Dr. Kaufman website. I couldn't find no definition of trigger points, morphology etc. as well as no explanation in regards of mechanism / treatment of trigger point therapy just claims of great success. I mean no explanation what to do either. Please compare information that we offered at our article with what kind of information offering Dr. Kaufman’s website. Exceptions of his ridiculous confusing and uneducated statement which is: THE GOLGI TENDON ORGAN REFLEX When a muscle is under too heavy a load, it relaxes completely or "collapses." This is an inherent guarding mechanism so that, for instance, if one tries to lift more weight than the arm can support, it doesn’t tear the biceps muscle. This reflex is variously known as the clasp knife reflex, the Golgi tendon organ reflex (GTO), or the inverse myotatic reflex1,6. “
He Wrote“This reflex is variously known as the clasp knife reflex”.Gordon. this reflex can be triggered only with patients who suffering from difficult neurological disease. Stretch reflex and clasp knife reflex is two absolutely different mechanisms.
And by the way if you will find on this website explanation and definition of trigger points, morphology etc. as well as explanation in regards of mechanism / treatment of trigger point therapy please offer this information. Even these discussions handled ridiculously I'm not regreting to participate
because I believe it is educational and especially not to fall in for this ridiculous websites like Dr. Kaufman’s.
Gordon J. Wallis said:
The evil one is here again... the blasphemer .. run , run children... The one who claims to eliminate trigger points not using the classical way ....lol I threaten you that much? - Attachments:
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trigger point explanation.jpg, 150 KB -
how i do trigger point therapy.jpg, 135 KB
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Hi Stephen.
you are absolutely right. If Gordon would propose this Kaufman's website, then we would focus our discussion on these topics. Exactly like you offered link to article and Dr.Ross promised to reply.instead he made many claims, such as his work is around and in frame of Travell's teachings, then by triggering clasp knife reflex,and only today finally he referred us to Kaufman website. I believe we all can learn from these conversations and decide on minimum standards of professional discussions which is if you're making claim then it have to be clear and you have to answer on posts of others by direct answers. In such a case it will be respectful, beneficial,pleasant and professional conversation that everyone including myself could learn from it.if you have time and in the mood to do it can you please reflect your opinions on material with in Kaufman's website.I mean maybe other readers will express their views?would be good to hear it. I will reply if somebody will post.
Best wishes.Boris
Stephen Jeffrey said:
Gordon,
thanks for the link, if possible, in future, would you make this info available earlier on in the discussion? a great deal of miss understanding about the technique could have been avoided.
This link should help many to understand its mechanism and judge for themselves, its potential to aliviate trigger points.
thanks
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://www.canadianchiropractor.ca/content/view/1023/ This really does work. Boris, what you think you know about trigger points is like back in the stone age compared to this stuff... You dont know everything..sorry to tell you that. End of discussion.
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