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Questions about Trigger Point, Myofascial.....

I am not a massage therapist - I hope it is okay to ask here some questions as a patient too. If not, then I am sorry and the moderator can delete the message here of course .

 

For over 4 years I am sick and my doctors say I have fibromyalgia. So far no treatments helped. Regarding massage I only got deep tissue massage for about 6 months. It was nice to have - BUT it didn't do anything for my pain and my dizziness.

 

That's why I wanted to try now some different types of massage, but have some questions about it:

1.)Is Trigger Point therapy and Myofascial Trigger Point the same or are these different techniques?

   What is Myofascial release?

 

2.)Could one or more of the three above mentioned massage techniques help with my symptoms

  (I  attached a drawing of my main symptoms of the head, muscle etc)?

 

   Symptoms that are not on the drawing are: constant dizzines, brain fog, nausea, sensitive to light (eyes), migranes/ headeaches every day, food allergies.

 

3.) Right now I am in physical therapy ( 2 days a week), but it really makes my symptoms and pain 

    worse. So, I don't know if I should continue PT or if I can combine it with massage.

 

4.) I live in a very small town where are not many massage therapist. How can I find a really good 

     therapist, who is really experienced and knowledged - is there maybe a special website or so 

    where I can find one?

 

I want to thank you in advance! And sorry for the bad English, it's not my mother language and I am still learning. 

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on February 16, 2012 at 4:38pm

Hi Ysabel

have you tried searching for an massage therapist by googling neuromuscular therapy? I notice there are therapists listed in Murphy (not far from you).

Another option maybe to contact a NC OR SC neuromuscular therapy school and ask for their help in finding a good therapist near to you.???

Take your time finding a therapist. You should ask, where they trained, how long they have been using triggerpoint therapy, do they use it every day in their practice? how many fibro clients have they treated? tell them your problems, have they experience of treating these problems. Chat with them, do you think you could work well with this person??  

Permalink Reply by Barbara Gropl on February 23, 2012 at 4:55am

Hi Ysabel,

I've just joined the forum. I wonder whether you are German (like me) because of your "kopfschmerz"-file.

I've done trigger point self-massage for the last two years and have been highly successful with it. I'm pretty convinced that you have tons of trigger points in your neck and head muscles which can produce most of the symptoms and pain you described. All you chiropractor visits will have left your neck muscles even with more trigger points which made  your symptoms worse (I had the same experience).

People with so  many trigger  points like you seem to have, are oftten diagnosed with fibromyalgia. Become your on therapist (like I did) and by "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook" of Clair Davies (available in German, too).

Best wishes!

Permalink Reply by Ysabel Wu on February 23, 2012 at 3:53pm

I want to say thanks again to all of you for your advise. I will look into everything - even if I am a bit more confused now WHICH will be best: trigger point, myofascial release, cranio sacrale, neuromuscular.....?

 

@Barbara: Yes, I am German :) Danke fuer den Tip mit dem Buch! Liebe Gruesse 

Permalink Reply by Kimberly Campbell on February 23, 2012 at 3:53pm

Ysabel,

Everyone has given you a lot to think about.  There are a lot of therapies out there and from the amount of people I've talked to, and what I've been fortunate enough to learn is that no two people experience a treatment the same.  So I want to offer you the best of luck in your search and would say there is a lot of good to be said for Cranio-Sacral and for Neuromuscular Therapy (Trigger Point Therapy).

I think the most important question you asked is about how to find a good Therapist. These are my rules:

1) Do they really listen when you explain the issue and what you've been through?

2) Do they take a history and go over your medical information seriously?

3) Do they seem to genuinely care about your concerns and health?

4) If you allow them to work on you, do they listen to what you are feeling during the treatment and adjust to your comfort level?

  A big mistake I hear is that people allow themselves to go through a treatment that leaves them in a lot of pain.  I am a full believer that good therapy is uncomfortable at times but never painful.

I know how it feels to be in pain and to want to get better and still feel like the 'professionals' aren't listening and only make the issue worse. The best thing you can do for yourself is to know that nobody can understand what is going on inside your body like you can.  A good Therapist will want to work with you, not force you in anyway.

Best of Luck and many blessings.

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on February 23, 2012 at 4:26pm


 Dear Ysabel.

 On February 1 2012,at Science Translational Medicine, was published research article Massage Therapy Attenuates Inflammatory Signaling”  Here is some conclusions of scientists who conducted this research:” Dr.Melov: "Our research showed that massage dampened the expression of inflammatory cytokines in the muscle cells and promoted biogenesis of mitochondria, which are the energy-producing units in the cells, the pain reduction associated with massage may involve the same mechanism as those targeted by conventional anti-inflammatory drugs. "This research article was published after I have proposed  you to read  fibromyalgia subject article.

if you had spent some time to read from article , you found that I and Dr. Ross, describing fibromyalgia symptoms as a results of ATP(biogenesis of mitochondria means converting /generating  ATP) crisis, practically offering explanation similar to Dr. Melov’s. Including many  of reference that this scientists used in the research article, and as you will be able to see, our article was published in 2004 . Why it wasn't so powerful conclusions within medical Society? Because it wasn't published at Science Translational Medicine or similar publication. Now you have support of this research, and as we recommending your therapist should spend 50% of procedure time for Petrissage techniques. I agree with many people who respond to you about looking for good therapist but also important that this  good hands therapist will understand condition he/she treating

And will apply correctly designed protocol. This   what will make different in your condition.

Get well fast.

Boris

 

 

 

 



Ysabel Wu said:

I want to say thanks again to all of you for your advise. I will look into everything - even if I am a bit more confused now WHICH will be best: trigger point, myofascial release, cranio sacrale, neuromuscular.....?

 

@Barbara: Yes, I am German :) Danke fuer den Tip mit dem Buch! Liebe Gruesse 

Permalink Reply by Maryshka on July 25, 2012 at 10:13pm

As in medicine, not all protocols/modalities work for everyone. I discovered a treatment through trial and error after a MVA five years ago after reaching a plateau in healing. Doing my own research, I discovered a treatment that may work for you as it has for me. Take a look at this Syndrome and see if the symptoms listed affect you.

Barre-Lieou Syndrome:  wehelpwhathurts.homestead.com/barrelieou.html

The treatment for this Syndrome is prolotherapy/prolozone and it addresses soft-tissue injuries and over-active nerves (nerves that were injured and have failed to shut off, meaning the injury may've healed but the nerves have not. Ligaments/tendons, facet joint injury often trigger referred pain. You mentioned fibromyalgia -- that is like the nerves don't shut down or are over-compensating and continue to send "pain" signals to the brain.

After four years, I found out about Barre-Lieou aka over-active autonomic nervous system and loose ligaments and damaged facet joints after long-term chiropractic and various massage modalities. I had headaches 15 or more times a month and they often came with excruciating eye pain (it felt like my eyeballs were being pulled out through the back of my head). I began my search by Googling whiplash+(any of my symptoms) and discovered what none of my own doctors didn't seem know about or dismissed (Barre-Lieou Syndrome). I had the majority of symptoms listed at the wehelpwhathurts website. Massage therapy would be a great adjunct to prolotherapy if massage/chiropractic alone does not give you relief. There is probably undiagnosed/improperly diagnosed facet joint injury and loose vertebra. Over-active nerves need to heal in order for them to shut off properly.

Important question: Do you have any past injuries to your cervical neck region (e.g. whiplash)?

Yes, chiropractic CAN make symptoms worse/exacerbate your C-spine issues, especially if your chiro doc is heavy-handed.

See this site (it's where I found my own doctor after four years of treatments): http://getprolo.com/whiplash.htm

My doctor is using prolozone (oxygen treatment for rebuilding/restrenghthening and healing soft tissue damage).

It's worth a try. Not all treatments are the answer for all patients/people, but it is worth investigating. I say this with personal experience. I used chiro/massage (including cranio-sacral therapy)/rolfing. They all did their magic. Something was still not right with the symptoms I kept getting. Prolotherapy/prolozone has been a God-send for me.

I'm a post-MVA patient so I know what I am talking about. The MVA led me to a career change (in massage therapy).

Is it possible that you might have concurrent undiagnosed allergies too? Just another consideration.

Try to find a Hemwall-Hackett prolotherapy-trained doctor at the getprolo website (this is crucial).

I hope this information helps you. 

Permalink Reply by jules dee on May 19, 2014 at 10:42am

Hello! I was wondering if you could tell us how many treatments you had and if you made complete recovery. I have the same thing and was thinking of trying prolotherapy.

Thanks :)

Maryshka said:

As in medicine, not all protocols/modalities work for everyone. I discovered a treatment through trial and error after a MVA five years ago after reaching a plateau in healing. Doing my own research, I discovered a treatment that may work for you as it has for me. Take a look at this Syndrome and see if the symptoms listed affect you.

Barre-Lieou Syndrome:  wehelpwhathurts.homestead.com/barrelieou.html

The treatment for this Syndrome is prolotherapy/prolozone and it addresses soft-tissue injuries and over-active nerves (nerves that were injured and have failed to shut off, meaning the injury may've healed but the nerves have not. Ligaments/tendons, facet joint injury often trigger referred pain. You mentioned fibromyalgia -- that is like the nerves don't shut down or are over-compensating and continue to send "pain" signals to the brain.

After four years, I found out about Barre-Lieou aka over-active autonomic nervous system and loose ligaments and damaged facet joints after long-term chiropractic and various massage modalities. I had headaches 15 or more times a month and they often came with excruciating eye pain (it felt like my eyeballs were being pulled out through the back of my head). I began my search by Googling whiplash+(any of my symptoms) and discovered what none of my own doctors didn't seem know about or dismissed (Barre-Lieou Syndrome). I had the majority of symptoms listed at the wehelpwhathurts website. Massage therapy would be a great adjunct to prolotherapy if massage/chiropractic alone does not give you relief. There is probably undiagnosed/improperly diagnosed facet joint injury and loose vertebra. Over-active nerves need to heal in order for them to shut off properly.

Important question: Do you have any past injuries to your cervical neck region (e.g. whiplash)?

Yes, chiropractic CAN make symptoms worse/exacerbate your C-spine issues, especially if your chiro doc is heavy-handed.

See this site (it's where I found my own doctor after four years of treatments): http://getprolo.com/whiplash.htm

My doctor is using prolozone (oxygen treatment for rebuilding/restrenghthening and healing soft tissue damage).

It's worth a try. Not all treatments are the answer for all patients/people, but it is worth investigating. I say this with personal experience. I used chiro/massage (including cranio-sacral therapy)/rolfing. They all did their magic. Something was still not right with the symptoms I kept getting. Prolotherapy/prolozone has been a God-send for me.

I'm a post-MVA patient so I know what I am talking about. The MVA led me to a career change (in massage therapy).

Is it possible that you might have concurrent undiagnosed allergies too? Just another consideration.

Try to find a Hemwall-Hackett prolotherapy-trained doctor at the getprolo website (this is crucial).

I hope this information helps you. 

Permalink Reply by Kay Warren on May 19, 2014 at 12:53pm

First thing to do is to understand that fully half the people who have Fibromyalgia also have chronic myofascial pain syndrome. The two need different treatments.  

Brain fog & fatigue often happens when the body is producing too much acetylcholine.  It is the opposite of adrenaline, makes you really tired. Second, what physical traumaas have you has, especially head injuries.  You may need to see a chiropractor and a Cranio-Sacral therapist to improve neurological issues.  Fibromyalia is a complex syndrome with many activating and perpetuation factors.  There is no one way of treatment that works well for everyone.  You specific symptomology will help you head in the right direction.  What you've mentioned before makes me steer you in the chiropractic path, for now.  As you progress, your needs will change. Go to Amazon, or ABEBooks.com & grab a copy of Devin Starlanyl & Mary Ellen Copeland's book, "Fibromyalgia & Chronic Myofascial Pain a Survivor's Guide". There are also potential issues with dehydration, food allergies, etc.  This is more than a quick conversation, and you need a team, preferably with someone at it's head who has studied the small mountain of recent research on Fibro, and knows how to make sense of it.  Any body tell you they can cure this, easy... they're lying or badly uninformed. It's a Syndrome because it doesn't have a known and provable etiology. What will make it kick in will vary from person to person.  Get the book, it will make a big difference, and help you ask the right questions, of the right people. 

By the way, deep tissue is going to be too much for you right now. Light relaxation massage or lympatic massage would probably give you the most direct help, right now, especially from someone who has & uses Kinesio tape. Long-term, you need to identify & control your triggers, which will help you get this under control. I'm happy to answer what I can,  but I can't predict what will work best for you. Fibro is just too individual for it to be that easy.

Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on May 19, 2014 at 2:12pm

If someone has 200 trigger points or more on their body.  It causes all kinds of bizare seemingly unrelated symptoms and conditions.  

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Permalink Reply by Maryshka on May 19, 2014 at 6:36pm

I hope this post does not get deleted by the administrator before you can read it...

This reply is based on my own experiences after having chiro care and massage therapy and plateauing in recovery. What I have found is that C1-C2 and other joints with instability can be over-manipulated with chiropractic which exacerbates the instability. What I found based on my own symptoms after a motor vehicle accident is a syndrome and treatment not being given its due. Joint instability is commonly overlooked. My jaw just about hit the computer desk when I found this information after I Googled many of my symptoms. The worst symptoms for me were headaches (many like you described in your diagram), eye pain that felt like my eyeballs were being pulled out through the back of my head, eye pain that relieved when I put finger pressue on the sides of my eyeballs, anxiety from lack of sleep, etc.

____________________________________________________________________

http://wehelpwhathurts.homestead.com/barrelieou.html

The diagnosis and treatment of Barre-Lieou is a commonly missed source of chronic pain.
In 1925, Jean Alexandre Barre, M.D., a French neurologist, and in 1928, Yong-Choen Lieou, a Chinese physician, each independently described a syndrome with a variety of symptoms thought to be due to a dysfunction in the posterior cervical sympathetic nervous system (a group of nerves located near the vertebrae in the neck). The posterior cervical sympathetic syndrome became known as Barre-Lieou Syndrome.

 

Symptoms that characterize Barre-Lieou Syndrome include:
headache
neck, facial, ear and dental pain
tinnitus (ringing in the ears)
vertigo (dizziness)
nausea
vomiting
blurred vision
tearing of the eyes
sinus congestion
Other symptoms may include:
swelling on one side of the face
localized cyanosis (bluish color) of the face
facial numbness
hoarseness
shoulder pain
dysesthesias (pins and needles sensations) of the hands & forearms
muscle weakness
fatigue
How can one disorder cause all of these problems? The answer lies within the sympathetic nervous system (a portion of the autonomic nervous system) that monitors, or regulates various activities that occur independently from the rest of the nervous system. Examples include pupil accommodation to light, equilibrium within the inner ear, and respiration.
 
If a structure that is innervated by (or being monitored by) the sympathetic system becomes injured, then it is the job of the sympathetic system to react to that injury. In the case of Barre-Leiou, the Posterior Cervical Sympathetic Chain forgets to stop monitoring the injury site; like a car engine that diesels, it forgets to shut down.
 
When this happens, the entire system becomes overly sensitive to any further stimulus. Shifting barometric pressure, stress, or sinus infections can make symptoms worse. Treatment should be directed toward restoring normal sympathetic nerve function, enhancing blood flow, and reducing total load (the total number of things that do not allow the system to heal).
 
Diagnosis can be difficult, especially if the treating physician is not familiar with the disorder. Thermography is a specialized study that measures skin temperature. It is an ideal test to evaluate for the presence of Barre-Lieou. More traditional studies include MRI (to rule out structural problems in the head and neck) and electrodiagnostic studies (to check for nerve damage).
 
Medications, physical therapy and sympathetic blocks (nerve blocks directed toward the sympathetic system) are all used to restore physiology to normal and relieve symptoms. People with persistent head and neck pain, such as after a motor vehicle accident, or with persistent migraine associated with blurred vision, numbness or tinnitus, should consider Barre-Lieou when looking for help.
_________________________
 
I did my homework and my own research on my own pain complex. Check out this site (I have no affiliation with it or any of the doctors other than where I found my own doctor -- thank God!): http://www.getprolo.com/tag/barre-lieou-syndrome/
I hope you investigate this further. Every patient is different. Some therapies work for some people and not for others but you seem to be going through a lot of revolving doors trying to find solutions. I did that too.
 
Good Luck.
Permalink Reply by Maryshka on May 19, 2014 at 6:53pm

Here is a digital motion xray of a patient with a "broken neck" (ligament damage?). I don't believe this patient's broken neck would have been discovered on static xray films. This is an extreme example of joint instability! No amount of PT, massage, chiro care is going to repair that damage. I can only imagine the symptoms.

 

Broken Neck After A Car Crash | Digital Motion X-Ray | MRI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT9f8Nk0h44

 

Through all of my trials, my Tx has led me to become a believer in soft tissue therapy and a licensed massage therapist, so I am grateful for the trauma and life lessons.

Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on May 20, 2014 at 3:00am

Uhm, Kay, any body can say anything online.  But, my experience is that fibromyalgia is not anything but massive amounts of trigger points.  That numer of trigger points change things chemically in the body.  Pain causes all kinds of reactions.  Im not arguing with you.   I know you are an experienced therapist.   And I only know my experience. Not the truth.. Only my truth.  But I have cured people with that diagnosis more then once.  One lady even went to the Mayo Clinic for spinal injectoins... and I had her out of pain in six treatments... hour sessions... She had fibromyalgia for 15 years... o all Im saying is that sometimes things are not exactly as they seem... And as you know.   That diaghosis is wide open.
She had all those symtomes.. Brain fog and all.   So, Im not claiming to be able to cure that diagnosis.. but, gosh. But I think at least 70% of those people are getting the wrong treatments.  I feel it in my heart. From experience.
Kay Warren said:

First thing to do is to understand that fully half the people who have Fibromyalgia also have chronic myofascial pain syndrome. The two need different treatments.  

Brain fog & fatigue often happens when the body is producing too much acetylcholine.  It is the opposite of adrenaline, makes you really tired. Second, what physical traumaas have you has, especially head injuries.  You may need to see a chiropractor and a Cranio-Sacral therapist to improve neurological issues.  Fibromyalia is a complex syndrome with many activating and perpetuation factors.  There is no one way of treatment that works well for everyone.  You specific symptomology will help you head in the right direction.  What you've mentioned before makes me steer you in the chiropractic path, for now.  As you progress, your needs will change. Go to Amazon, or ABEBooks.com & grab a copy of Devin Starlanyl & Mary Ellen Copeland's book, "Fibromyalgia & Chronic Myofascial Pain a Survivor's Guide". There are also potential issues with dehydration, food allergies, etc.  This is more than a quick conversation, and you need a team, preferably with someone at it's head who has studied the small mountain of recent research on Fibro, and knows how to make sense of it.  Any body tell you they can cure this, easy... they're lying or badly uninformed. It's a Syndrome because it doesn't have a known and provable etiology. What will make it kick in will vary from person to person.  Get the book, it will make a big difference, and help you ask the right questions, of the right people. 

By the way, deep tissue is going to be too much for you right now. Light relaxation massage or lympatic massage would probably give you the most direct help, right now, especially from someone who has & uses Kinesio tape. Long-term, you need to identify & control your triggers, which will help you get this under control. I'm happy to answer what I can,  but I can't predict what will work best for you. Fibro is just too individual for it to be that easy.

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