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Jennifer L. Hensley said: If you don't have a scientific rationing for the way you collect data, it's useless.
I used to believe that. I majored in Physics and work with computers for 40 years and thought that everything valid cold be explained scientifically. However I now understand that we need to use both halves of our brain. The problem with medicine is that one limits everything to left-brain thought. In the process you miss so much. I find that the essential part of my work complements scientific (atomistic) work by integrating perceptions that go beyond the limits of rational understanding. I also think that it is evidence based in a sense because it produces concrete results that are measurable.
Too often people are intimidated by this rationally based society and attempt to use pseudo science to explain what they do. It comes out as quackery. Instead one has to have the courage to admit that what one does is not knowable with left-brained rational knowledge.
To try to confine massage and bodywork to science is making it a poor subset to medicine. Instead we need to have to courage to complement medicine by embracing the holistic approach to wellness and working with the body to heal itself rather than just trying to be fixers.
My thoughts exactly Jan. I'm trying to do just that. I've been a LMT for 15 years and a part-time grad student at the U of A for the past 3. I'm preparing for my internship before graduating and would like to set up a colloboration with Cortiva, PCC, or the Providence Institutes, and the U for either student research case studies or a micro-longitudinal pilot study. You and I met more than 15 years ago at DIHA when I was just starting out; I don't expect you to remember as we talked only once and I actually graduated from SWIHA. I have a UA professor who is interested in helping with my project and I'm gathering information now to get this ball rolling. Do you have any contacts you could recommend left at Cortiva that I could talk to who might be interested?
Jan Schwartz said:In my opinion Evidence Based Practice is critical for the advancement of our profession, especially for those who want to be a part of the American health care system. I understand that some therapists do not want to go there, and that's fine--I'm speaking about those who do. EBP makes the most sense for massage because, as you point out Bodhi, it is a three pronged approach, taking into account the patient/client preferences and clinical experiences as well as using best available evidence.
The first step is to get research literacy into the schools so that new graduates can evaluate research and use it appropriately. Then we need massage therapists to actually conduct research. At least in this country, most research having to do with massage is being conducted by other health care professionals--as the principal investigator. That too needs to change and requires massage therapists to have a higher level of education. The result of research is the evidence, and who better to conduct it than those who were trained in it?
approximately three weeks ago I had a medical doctor on my table for back pain, he was asking many questions on how this technique worked. after I had explained many of the theories to him he said to me, "What scientific proof do you have of these statements?" My reply to him was, "What scientific proof do you have that refutes what I am telling you?" I further asked him, "Do you feel better?" His reply was, "Yes." I then replied, "What more proof do you need then how you feel." I do believe that it would be good to get this evidence based massage but in my 23 years of practice and having worked on thousands of individuals it would be difficult for me to set up a study of 100 people that have exactly the same issue. I do know that after talking to many of the researches at the Cleveland Clinic that it takes them a long time to come up with a satisfactory group to study. Their asset though is that the pharmaceutical companies are funding the research. I do believe it would be difficult to have comparable studies without that type of funding. If large enough grants were available I would be happy to compare the theory I developed, Muscle Release Therapy, MRTh(R) to many other modalites.
See, this is a perfect example of what a lot of bodyworkers don't understand about research: you absolutely _do_ need scientifically proven evidence to prove data...otherwise it is not data. If you don't have a scientific rationing for the way you collect data, it's useless.
You also don't seem to understand that research scientists absolutely take the placebo effect into account, that's why scientifically-approved studies have a control group with no intervention and a control group with "sham" or placebo intervention.
And I don't know of any intervention that is universal: it's not about that. It's about it being effective for the _majority_ of people with the condition.
Lina Petridis said:Totally agree Elena...We don't need scientifically proven evidence to prove data.. We cannot deny the advances made in science like stem -cell research...ex: growing a new finger.. but to prove a method as universal...is also a dilemma . The placebo effect,.where Japanese scientists asked for volunteers to expose themselves to poison Ivy..and resulted in an itching red burning rash were eventually told it was not poison Ivy.
You could replace that experiment with any practise..its the belief in what the client is exposing themself to that has the result they expect. How do you measure what the mind believes? Isn't this a question with a simple answer? Elena Barrioz said:Hmmmm, why is it, that unless it can be proven "scientifically", it must not be viable. Massage (to me) is such an individual experience. I would question the intent behind EBM, is it just monetary (to be more readily accepted by the insurance companies) or is it to find techniques/modalities that consistently provide clients with positive results. I would think that answer would then be used to skew the data to favor which ever outcome was wanted.
I do understand that Big Pharma has researched its way right into an addicted society. Here is data..researchers can moon walk with..
.Australian authorities were enforcing a procedure for SIDS in the 50's ..in spite of the tremendous losses of aboriginal chidren.When new and successful methods by Archie Kalokerinos was introduced He was asked where is your research? His simple answer was.."With one method they die. the other they live! "The question to ask is if they were so scientific why did they choose to oppose him rather find the truth? Is it pride and prejudice...Angels or Demons? Or is the truth a jumping off place for your beliefs?
Jennifer L. Hensley said:See, this is a perfect example of what a lot of bodyworkers don't understand about research: you absolutely _do_ need scientifically proven evidence to prove data...otherwise it is not data. If you don't have a scientific rationing for the way you collect data, it's useless.
You also don't seem to understand that research scientists absolutely take the placebo effect into account, that's why scientifically-approved studies have a control group with no intervention and a control group with "sham" or placebo intervention.
And I don't know of any intervention that is universal: it's not about that. It's about it being effective for the _majority_ of people with the condition.
Lina Petridis said:Totally agree Elena...We don't need scientifically proven evidence to prove data.. We cannot deny the advances made in science like stem -cell research...ex: growing a new finger.. but to prove a method as universal...is also a dilemma . The placebo effect,.where Japanese scientists asked for volunteers to expose themselves to poison Ivy..and resulted in an itching red burning rash were eventually told it was not poison Ivy.
You could replace that experiment with any practise..its the belief in what the client is exposing themself to that has the result they expect. How do you measure what the mind believes? Isn't this a question with a simple answer? Elena Barrioz said:Hmmmm, why is it, that unless it can be proven "scientifically", it must not be viable. Massage (to me) is such an individual experience. I would question the intent behind EBM, is it just monetary (to be more readily accepted by the insurance companies) or is it to find techniques/modalities that consistently provide clients with positive results. I would think that answer would then be used to skew the data to favor which ever outcome was wanted.
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