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Have Arrogant / Stubborn LMT's Created the Market for Massage Franchises?
First off let me say that I honestly don't personally care what any other Therapist's charge, nor do I concern myself w/ how well or how much business someone else is generating.
I've been in Healthcare now for over 17yrs, and my view towards things tend to be a little different from the avg professional. I believe that any and all therapy no matter the modality should be available to everyone.
I've seen and heard from other LMT's over time that these Massage Franchises are hurting the profession, either by their reduced rates which arent' actually reduced at all, or by the volume of business they do on a daily basis.
I've often wondered when I travel to more rural areas why their local LMT's charge the National Avg w/ regards to basic rates, aren't things in more run down, poorer regions usually cheaper than lets say in the big cities?!
I relocated to a region a few years ago and got hammered by local LMT's for undercutting the local market, well as I told many of them what I charge is no one elses business, I was constantly referred to as the Massage Envy of my region. So I moved again a few months ago to a larger city and it's littered w/ those Massage Envy's so I took a job based on my curiosity to see what all the hub bub was about, and what their Therapists were like.
Folks there is a place and enough business for all of us to charge what ever it is we feel our time is worth.
These Massage Franchises simply came into being all beacuse IMHO, due to LMT"s not marketing themselves well, and not being available. We are in the "I want it and I want it now " era.
Fact is folks these franchises are no cheaper than the National avg, sure they have gimmicks to lure in the client, but it's the lack of availability and in ability to easily find a therapist that has allowed these franchises to flourish.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Relax & Rejuvenate on
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Gina, thanks for continuing to make all of my points for me. Not sure what you are arguing about or whom with
Gina A. Liccardo said:
ME charges 39.95 for an hour introductory massage not even $45 so what are you talking about do you even know? No you don't obviously. Go find out what is going on in the industry before you start spewing nonsense. ME pays anywhere from 15-22/hr
I am well aware of what ME and other employers in the NYC area pay, since I am one of them. That is how I came up with my compensation scheme -- which is amazing I can pay MTs on the high end without being one myself. Must have been an accident.
So ME pays $15- $22 per hour for employees, which after paying employer's share of payroll taxes comes to $16 - $23.50 per hour out of a $39.95 massage. That is a pay rate of 40 -55%, which is remarkably similar to the % you pay your independent contractors. You brought up % pay as being some gold standard for employer benevolence -- not me. I think % pay is for suckers and the lazy, and punishes MTs when the boss decides to discount (which, by the way, never affects our employee's pay, even when we run a 50% off groupon or offer $30 off to hotel guests who are members of the frequent guest program Would be curious to know if you expect your ICs to eat any portion of the discounts you offer clients, but that is for another time...)
Gina A. Liccardo said:
The going payrate for an LMT in NYC is $35-$50/hr if you are hired by someone else.
Only employees can be hired, so that would leave you out of the sample. If $35-$50 were indeed the going payrate, ME would have no employees. But since they have employees, it is your fellow MTs who are ignorant of what is going on in the massage industry. If no one would work for Massage Envy, or Express Spa at the airports, or any of the other places that YOU FEEL ARE UNJUST then they would be forced to raise their pay in order to compete for employees.
Back in my suit wearing days, my firm was losing so many people to the .com madness, they announced 20% across the board salary increases and changed the deferred bonus the an annual bonus in order to try to keep their employees from leaving. Same would happen at ME if they felt they could not have enough employees to succeed -- without service providers, there is no revenue in a service industry. but they have a steady supply of MTs willing to work for what you consider to be unjust wages.
Gina A. Liccardo said:
Why are you supporting and defending ME, a franchise that exploits massage therapists and underpays them and trying to imply someone that pays therapists well, such as myself, is on the same level as a business like ME?
Because I don't give a rat's rectum what ME or you or anyone else pay their therapists UNLESS, as you did, start getting all sanctimonious and hypocritical.
What ME pays their people is THEIR BUSINESS. Why I did not tell you I pay my employees MORE than you pay your contractors? Because it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and has nothing to do with whether my opinion is valid or not. I revelead it to show the fallacy in your diatribe against a non-MT employer. You assumed I paid slave wages, because that is what you want to believe of a non-MT.
Why do I criticize you -- because you don't have the fortitude to do the right thing and make the MTs who work on your behalf employees. At least ME is willing to step up to do that., and, as it turns out, they pay the same % of revenue to their employees as you do to your contractors.
Gina A. Liccardo said:
Anyone that is going to defend a franchise that underpays and exploits their workers is unethical period.
And this is precisely the kind of name-calling that led me to label you an ass, a comment I still stand by.
To label me unethical for disagreeing with you is assinine (there is that word again)
By your standard, I disagree with you not doing the right thing and making your MTs employees instead of contractors -- which would make you unethical and exploitative. Don't tell me paying them more than ME -- but less than me -- makes it OK to take advantage of your fellow MTs, compared to how my employees are treated you are just as bad as ME
But I am NOT judging your, or ME, or your practices. That is YOUR business. When you call them out, unfairly, then I will scrutize your business practices because I think you have no business sticking your nose into theirs.
I will defend any business's right to run their business however they see fit, so long as it is run legally. Whether or not I like their product, pricing, employment practices, use of Chinese labor (hello, Apple!) is for me and the other consumers in the marketplace to decide by patronizing their business or not, But they are free to run it as they see fit.
I don't believe in boycotts, I don't believe in petitions - the employees and patrons should determine whether or not a business thrives or fails. Not a bunch of rabble rousers who have something to gain in MEs' demise.
Gina A. Liccardo said:
Think of all the back and forth posts that could have been avoided if R&R just admitted up front that he pays his therapists a good pay rate of $45/hr but still thinks businesses like ME can pay what they choose,like most on the other side of the coin did. Case in point you, but I guess people with a business background are too used to hiding what's really going on, even if it's a good thing!
Do you ever tired of being wrong? I guess if you continue to assume what other's motives and thoughts are, you must be pretty used to it by now.
I am not hiding what is going on -- I argue on principles, not anecdotes. My principle is that it is MEs business what their business practices are. By arguing anecdotes -- what I pay my therapists -- one creates a morale relativity, which is not a principle, and you can fall victim of your own relativity.
You think ME is evil because they pay lower wages than you. But relative to how I pay my employees, your compensation of ICs is "relatively" unfair and exploitative. I don't think it is OK for you to have your MTs be contractors (am really curious how your business practices would stack up compared to BOL standards, and 90% of MTs are improperly classified as ICs) and be paid what you pay them. But that is your business -- until you start labeling others as exploitative and underpaying.
I am happy ME is in the industry. They have provided me with a steady stream of talented, eager and loyal therapists who truly enjoy working under our scheme of 9 hour shifts, retail sales goals and personal responsibility for the workplace which you excoriated me for earlier. They have also provided us with a number of new customers to our O&O location
I don't fear the competition, I welcome and embrace them. Good ones make me better, bad ones make me stand out more.
If you are negatively impacted by them, then maybe you should focus on trying to make your business better instead of trying to throw brick-bats at them.
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Permalink Reply by Gina A. Liccardo on
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The problem stems from the schools, who are encouraging their new grads to work for these places because they are getting kickbacks from franchises like ME.
Didn't you say you pay your employees $45/hr? I pay my contractors just as much.
Anyone can scroll back to the thread and see that you didn't use the word "assinine"; you condescendingly said, "you're making an ass out of yourself"
Anyone who is reading this post can see that you trying to put someone who pays their therapists $35-$50/hr is not in the same category as an ME.
I think the only point you are trying to make is that you are trying to push my buttons and make it appear like I'm hypocritical which anyone who is reading this thread can see I am not.
9 hour shifts are absolutely horrible. When your therapists get older and end up with arthritis, they will have you to thank for them.
As for you wife's experience at Aveda and Estee Lauder, these are not companies that have an expertise in massage therapy but rather fall into the ME category, in that they underpay their workers as well and in most cases they can because they hire unlicensed cosmetologists to work for them. So the experience she has does not qualify her to understand how a massage business should be run, particularly in that she thinks it's ok to work her therapists 9 hours a day. LMTs are trained and licensed therapists and need to be compensated for their qualifications.
At the end of the day, the reason I took on this cause was not only because of myself but because I could see the effect these franchises have had on the industry and it will not get better for massage therapists as a whole. I recognize that you can't see past yourself and your own business and profit which is another reason why it is so dangerous to have someone like you in charge of this kind of establishment.
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Actually you are the one that brought up percentage when you said, that you pay your therapists 35% of the cost of service. Now if you pay them $45 a service then that works out to over $120 for the service, meanwhile you are going on about why shouldn't businesses be able to provide an affordable vital health service. $120 is a highend service. So where is your argument here? I think finding a middle ground is a good place to start for providing a vital health service. Taking care of your therapist as well as the client.
This magical wage and employment minus the 9 hour work day. Where is this hotel you speak of?
At the end of the day, greedy business practices...the only person that really benefits is you.
What it comes down to is ethics, you don't want to hire another employee because it will cost you more money, so instead you overwork the ones you have.
Relax & Rejuvenate said:Gina, thanks for continuing to make all of my points for me. Not sure what you are arguing about or whom with
Gina A. Liccardo said:
ME charges 39.95 for an hour introductory massage not even $45 so what are you talking about do you even know? No you don't obviously. Go find out what is going on in the industry before you start spewing nonsense. ME pays anywhere from 15-22/hr
I am well aware of what ME and other employers in the NYC area pay, since I am one of them. That is how I came up with my compensation scheme -- which is amazing I can pay MTs on the high end without being one myself. Must have been an accident.
So ME pays $15- $22 per hour for employees, which after paying employer's share of payroll taxes comes to $16 - $23.50 per hour out of a $39.95 massage. That is a pay rate of 40 -55%, which is remarkably similar to the % you pay your independent contractors. You brought up % pay as being some gold standard for employer benevolence -- not me. I think % pay is for suckers and the lazy, and punishes MTs when the boss decides to discount (which, by the way, never affects our employee's pay, even when we run a 50% off groupon or offer $30 off to hotel guests who are members of the frequent guest program Would be curious to know if you expect your ICs to eat any portion of the discounts you offer clients, but that is for another time...)
Gina A. Liccardo said:
The going payrate for an LMT in NYC is $35-$50/hr if you are hired by someone else.
Only employees can be hired, so that would leave you out of the sample. If $35-$50 were indeed the going payrate, ME would have no employees. But since they have employees, it is your fellow MTs who are ignorant of what is going on in the massage industry. If no one would work for Massage Envy, or Express Spa at the airports, or any of the other places that YOU FEEL ARE UNJUST then they would be forced to raise their pay in order to compete for employees.
Back in my suit wearing days, my firm was losing so many people to the .com madness, they announced 20% across the board salary increases and changed the deferred bonus the an annual bonus in order to try to keep their employees from leaving. Same would happen at ME if they felt they could not have enough employees to succeed -- without service providers, there is no revenue in a service industry. but they have a steady supply of MTs willing to work for what you consider to be unjust wages.
Gina A. Liccardo said:
Why are you supporting and defending ME, a franchise that exploits massage therapists and underpays them and trying to imply someone that pays therapists well, such as myself, is on the same level as a business like ME?
Because I don't give a rat's rectum what ME or you or anyone else pay their therapists UNLESS, as you did, start getting all sanctimonious and hypocritical.
What ME pays their people is THEIR BUSINESS. Why I did not tell you I pay my employees MORE than you pay your contractors? Because it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and has nothing to do with whether my opinion is valid or not. I revelead it to show the fallacy in your diatribe against a non-MT employer. You assumed I paid slave wages, because that is what you want to believe of a non-MT.
Why do I criticize you -- because you don't have the fortitude to do the right thing and make the MTs who work on your behalf employees. At least ME is willing to step up to do that., and, as it turns out, they pay the same % of revenue to their employees as you do to your contractors.
Gina A. Liccardo said:
Anyone that is going to defend a franchise that underpays and exploits their workers is unethical period.
And this is precisely the kind of name-calling that led me to label you an ass, a comment I still stand by.
To label me unethical for disagreeing with you is assinine (there is that word again)
By your standard, I disagree with you not doing the right thing and making your MTs employees instead of contractors -- which would make you unethical and exploitative. Don't tell me paying them more than ME -- but less than me -- makes it OK to take advantage of your fellow MTs, compared to how my employees are treated you are just as bad as ME
But I am NOT judging your, or ME, or your practices. That is YOUR business. When you call them out, unfairly, then I will scrutize your business practices because I think you have no business sticking your nose into theirs.
I will defend any business's right to run their business however they see fit, so long as it is run legally. Whether or not I like their product, pricing, employment practices, use of Chinese labor (hello, Apple!) is for me and the other consumers in the marketplace to decide by patronizing their business or not, But they are free to run it as they see fit.
I don't believe in boycotts, I don't believe in petitions - the employees and patrons should determine whether or not a business thrives or fails. Not a bunch of rabble rousers who have something to gain in MEs' demise.
Gina A. Liccardo said:
Think of all the back and forth posts that could have been avoided if R&R just admitted up front that he pays his therapists a good pay rate of $45/hr but still thinks businesses like ME can pay what they choose,like most on the other side of the coin did. Case in point you, but I guess people with a business background are too used to hiding what's really going on, even if it's a good thing!
Do you ever tired of being wrong? I guess if you continue to assume what other's motives and thoughts are, you must be pretty used to it by now.
I am not hiding what is going on -- I argue on principles, not anecdotes. My principle is that it is MEs business what their business practices are. By arguing anecdotes -- what I pay my therapists -- one creates a morale relativity, which is not a principle, and you can fall victim of your own relativity.
You think ME is evil because they pay lower wages than you. But relative to how I pay my employees, your compensation of ICs is "relatively" unfair and exploitative. I don't think it is OK for you to have your MTs be contractors (am really curious how your business practices would stack up compared to BOL standards, and 90% of MTs are improperly classified as ICs) and be paid what you pay them. But that is your business -- until you start labeling others as exploitative and underpaying.
I am happy ME is in the industry. They have provided me with a steady stream of talented, eager and loyal therapists who truly enjoy working under our scheme of 9 hour shifts, retail sales goals and personal responsibility for the workplace which you excoriated me for earlier. They have also provided us with a number of new customers to our O&O location
I don't fear the competition, I welcome and embrace them. Good ones make me better, bad ones make me stand out more.
If you are negatively impacted by them, then maybe you should focus on trying to make your business better instead of trying to throw brick-bats at them.
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Permalink Reply by Therese Schwartz on
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R&R posted about his MBA as an answer to my question about his education and experience. It was not intended to be an actual part of this thread. I'm going to see if he'll friend me (and do the same with other people that I have specific questions for) so I can ask that kind of question separately from the thread. I just wanted you to know that he wasn't bragging or trying to use that as part of his argument.
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Gina, your lack of comprehension and math skills are staggering
As stated before, our therapists average 3 or 4 services during their nine hour day, which includes a 1 hour meal break and 30 minutes between clients. A much more likely cause of arthiritis is doing 4 massages in a 6 hour shift like so many therapist-friendly establishments tout as evidence of their benevolence. doing 7 or 8 -- or even 6 routinely -- services in a 9 hour shift is crazy. Has never happened for us, never will, even though not being an MT myself, I have managed to figure out that it would lead to injury (hello workers comp claim, something you would know nothing about since you don't offer that to the ICs you abuse), burnout and turnover.
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I DON"T think massage should be inexpensive. I like charging $125 and up for the services we offer. ME has a different strategy, one I hear echoed by many MTs -- massage shoudl be affordable. So I asked you, what is wrong with making massage affordable? Look at the number of people it is helping?
I can tell you what I think is wrong with it, but I am not the one critcizing ME -- they can do what they want if they think that is their road to success.
You DON"T pay your ICs the same as I pay my employees because you deprive them of the payroll taxes employers must bear and the other protections of being an employee -- yet you never address this and keep blathering about how great you are exploiting your fellow MTs who should probably be employees.
I will leave it to Estee Lauder's corporate attorney's to address your charge of them using unlicensed cosmetologists -- you really should be careful of such language.
Similarly, using the word kick-back is slanderous as well.
And finally, who the hell are you to judge what someone is or is not qualified to do? The fact that we are dong something -- successfully -- for over a decade and have created -- by your own admission -- jobs that pay better than you, with benefits and employee status leaves you in little position to judge.
To apply your standard, I don't think you are qualified or capable of pouring water out of a cup if the instructions to do so were printed on the bottom -- but that is neither here nor there, but to you that is a valid expression in an exchange of ideas.
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Whatever you say Conan, although you might want to have a look under job description qualifications for Estee Lauder at this link:
http://www.vault.com/survey/occupational/Estee-Lauder-2380.html
I'll be sure to print it out for when that attorney comes knocking at my door.
PS - Using the word "kick back" isn't slander if you have proof.
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honestly, i like it when the industry decides what price to charge. If your in a city where the norm is 80 bucks, then charge in around 80, some places it's 50 then charge that. I think the market is very good at deciding what to ask for for your services. I use Massage Pot, to get all my appointments. Its a site set up just like craigslist or backpage, but for licensed massage therapist only. They have an option to where you can post your own ad for 5 bucks, or put in an application with them , through there jobs section, and they put up your ads free, put a paypal button on there, they handle all your calls, set all your appointments, and they only charge 20 bucks per paid order. and you can set your own price so they only send you the clients you will take at YOUR price. This really revolutionizes the industry as far as what you believe your time is worth. IDK. This will always be a competitive business, best thing to do is find your clients, nurture your reorder, and constantly push for new business.
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Gina, you have crossed over to complete lunacy. Can you even comprehend the ENGLISH language?
You claim Estee Lauder hires unlicensed cosmetologist, based on their ad listing you posted.
Did you bother to read it? This ad was posted for Chicago IL, a state in which NO LICENSE IS NECESSARY TO APPLY MAKE UP
That is true in most states. What they said in their ad is 100% legal
In the state of NY, you can apply make up in a retail store doing as part of a retail sales effort WITH NO LICENSE WHATSOEVER
Don't believe me. Don't believe the evil corporation. Believe your benevolent state government, which currently has a bill PENDING to require licensure for make up artists in the state of NY. PENDING, not passed. http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/A2176-2011
Why would they need to consider a bill to license make up artists if -- as you claim -- it is already a law that Estee Lauder is violating? because, once again, you are DEAD WRONG in your tirade against anything/one that is not a lofty sole practitioner MT.
if your "proof" of kickbacks is a strong as your proof of Estee Lauder's alleged violation of cosmetology laws, you had best get a good lawyer.
Gina A. Liccardo said:Whatever you say Conan, although you might want to have a look under job description qualifications for Estee Lauder at this link:
http://www.vault.com/survey/occupational/Estee-Lauder-2380.html
I'll be sure to print it out for when that attorney comes knocking at my door.
PS - Using the word "kick back" isn't slander if you have proof.
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You made some good points. I am a recent career changer. In the past when I was working my desk job, I had 2 LMTs that I loved but they were flaky and not always available when I needed a massage. And I can't tell you how many times the massage had to be cancelled due to conflicts in their schedule, not mine. While I never stepped foot in a franchise until 2 weeks ago, I did find the beauty of some local Asian bodywork places I found. They were located next to my office and always had 3 therapist on duty. They charge $1 a minute (very affordable by DC standards). The first time I went there? I had tennis elbow, happened to be walking by (in pain) and wondered if they could help me. Mark spent 15 minutes on my forearm and I was hooked. I continued to go there during lunch or after works about every 2 weeks until I stopped working there. Though Mark was my favorite, the other 2 therapist were good also. I later found places like this close to home that charged even less ($50/hour) - some therapist were great, others not so much so. These places aren't fancy - they're cramped and have curtains between the tables.
The reason I never visited a franchise until recently was frankly because I know of these places ran by Asian families. If a ME was there, it very well could have been that that would have been the business I stopped by on my lunch break. If I had some time to kill and my back was hurting because I've been pulling 12 hour days the week prior, I know where I just walk-in if I couldn't get in to see my therapist. Something to be said for convenience. I can see where Massage Envy and the other franchises would have it's appeal in that respect. Where I work, we are on call so if somebody just shows up and no therapist has an appointment, the doors are locked. Needing some extra hours, I recently picked up a shift at a franchise (not ME, btw).
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Coming from the IT Consulting field, "non-compete" contracts are common in many other businesses so I have no issues with that. Stealing clients in unethical, period. One of the volunteer organizations that I work with does not allow us to display our business cards, we can hand them out only after being asked twice (after we tell them we are at that location every 2 weeks and are still asked). I work a few hours a week at a franchise but the bulk of my work is with a clinical massage practice. I purposely chose the locations in opposite directions (different counties, even) so that the likelihood of clients overlapping is minimal.
Philippa Dodson said:I have been a solo practitioner since 1991. Including my initial 500 hours of training and continuing education I have spent well over $20,000 to become expert in the field. That is on top of college and after a 25 year career in healthcare. I do not believe it is "arrogant" to charge what I am worth, which is $80 an hour in a large urban market. I have not raised my prices in several years in recognition of the recession and charge by my time, so an advanced modality like Lymph Drainage (Vodder Certified and Advanced training with Dr. Chikly) is the same price as therapeutic massage. I also offer a discount package for people paying up front for 6 or 12 sessions. A lot of people think I "make" $80 an hour. They do not take into consideration the overhead and expense of running a business. A lot of time is dedicated to records, cleaning, advertising etc and it is not cheap to maintain an office, utilities, as well. All those things must be taken into account when putting a value on what I do. Although the public is more accepting of massage than they were 20 or 30 years ago, many still do not understand the difference between a skilled therapist and one who just works to get by. Yes, perhaps a lotion application is only worth $20, but a massage from a person who actually has some expertise is worth WAY more. The way the franchises undermine experienced therapists is by promoting the idea that an el cheapo massage is the same as an expert massage. Many people who get the cheap version for their first experience will indeed conclude that "massage is not worth much". Why would schools and professional organizations want to support the massage franchises? To me it is very short sighted. Once massage is no longer considered a profession where one might make a living wage no one will be willing to put in the time, training and expense to go to massage school or join a professional organization. It would be like getting a PhD to flip burgers. Also, the argument that franchise are a "good place to start" has no merit because the franchises do everything in their power to not help a person build a practice so they can move on, including a non-compete clause that does not allow an MT to "steal" the franchises clients. Also, being "fed" clients does nothing to help develop market skills. Massage has never been an easy place to make a good living. Many people go to school and find it is not for them because they do not have the skill, stamina or interpersonal abilities, so the cream would rise to the top. The unsuitable (therefore unsuccessful) would move on. Now there is a place for those unable to make it on their own...franchises. And they taint the entire profession by working for a pittance and introducing the world to substandard skills.
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Permalink Reply by Grace Hyndman-McCarthy on
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I hired several past employees of ME here in NY. They all said the same thing, they are overworked and poorly paid. I was horrified when I google reviews for ME.
Darcy Neibaur said:I have read all the post here and I am not sure what the topic is. What I would like to offer is, I work for Massage Envy in Pensacola, FL and have since they opened April 2009. I am very happy there. I work for a great owner. We have the best of the massage world literally at our finger tips which is not the case with most Massage Envy's. We are treated with respect and not over worked or abused as some may think. As for wages, I make great money. I work part time, my choice as I can, and I also teach for them within the Pensacola Clinic. Massage Envy offers CE classes and also pays for their employees to take these classes. There is also a full benefit package available to full time employees working 30 hours a week or more. There are 26 LMT's employeed where I work. All have a variety of experience from just out of school to 15 years. We all have varied modalies that we offer. We all have our own clientel that we have had to build. I find it sad that folks feel they have to make such disrespectful comments about companies that they know nothing about because they have never worked for them. Massage Envy is a global sponsor for most of the conventions that LMT's attend to receive their hands on training. Most do not realize it. I am very proud to say I work for Massage Envy and am truly grateful for my job.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Melmed on
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I have mixed feelings about the massage franchises in many respects. Firstly, capitalism being what it is, I agree people should charge what they want to charge. I think it's great that people can afford massage more readily - I only wish that the therapists could be paid more. But I am also a business owner and realize that running a business always costs more than people imagine. I have written more extensively, specifically about Massage Envy and it's impact on our profession and you can check out that massage blog for that :)
Dan Melmed
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