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Is massage therapy recognized as an therapeutic /medical procedure???
Is massage therapy recognized as an therapeutic /medical procedure???
This link is to my article on this subject, where I am not only answering this question but also proposing practical steps.
http://medicalmassage-ceu.com/article_new6.htm
You are welcome to post comments: thoughts and questions on the subject. It is important dialog for every one of us.
Best wishes.
Boris
Views: 1534
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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Gordon. This discussion is not about trigger points . This site http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/response-to-knot-i...
was dedicated to trigger points, where you claimed “clasp knife reflex methodology” as an ultimate method of trigger point therapy. This is classic example of destruction from topic . I would ignore your post If you wouldn't propose again wrong information that the other can maybe consider after reading proposed article by this chiropractor. Why every time you bringing some think unacceptable? First of all non of, osteoporotic medicine school, chiropractic school, physical therapy schools , teaching massage therapy and therefore they cannot be authority in this methodology. Secondarily statement in article:Areas of reduced circulation in muscles are called trigger points. They are painful when pressed." dismissing fellow who wrote this article. This is absolutely wrong definition of trigger points. In cases of skeletal muscular disorders, In fact all components of painful area, including muscles, connective tissue etc. ,suffering from reduced/insufficient blood supply and are painful, but trigger points is a pinpoint localization of sharper level of pain. During histological /biopsy studies, trigger points’ morphology was established. All text books on the subject, including Travel and Simons text supporting what Dr.Ross and I wrote in article including definitions of trigger points. Trigger points Can be found not only in muscles, but also in other anatomical components of painful region. Looks like you searching any website that can make up whatever and then you suggesting that this is “miracle “ work you are doing. Please stop doing it. How this fellow who wrote this article establish his claims?? Did he conduct some research? Is his article is a preliminary study report of this research? What he proposing may be will inhibit trigger points, will put them to sleep stage, which is terrible and dangerous condition. Please read in articles or at my posts explanations why not adequate treatment of trigger points is dangerous.
http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/response-to-knot-i...
All what I am writing, and teaching is based on solid research, and most important including clinical experiences for many decades.
http://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/1110/medical.aspx
But the final point is, trigger point therapy is not really exact topic of this discussion. In your last post you did apologize for destruction. I do appreciate and accept your apology. But make some meaning to this apology and do not distract anymore. Thank you very much.
Merry Christmas, happy Kwanzaa, happy Hanukkah, and a very happy , and prosper and peaceful 2012.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://www.drsteinhealing.com/doctor/chiropractor/22L/encino-chirop... This is the soft tissue work I do... Along with many other Doctors, chiropractors and osteopathic physicions. Some very prominant in the industry I might add. I can give you their phone numbers if you want? You can call them stupid arrogant and non professional if you want. .. .. This is the highest level soft tissue work I have ever encounterd.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. When Dr. Ross started discussion, on adequate treatment of trigger points, Gordon interrupted, absolutely in the destructive way how he did at this discussion. I mean started telling how he in five minutes can solve any problem, and absolutely disregarded topic subject. You picked up the site and you where very disrespectful and rude to Dr. Ross. Then I interrupted with good advice to you something like:
Gary you are student, even not in practice, therefore for you to address in so disrespectful way MD, who’s PhD study was dedicated to medical massage related subject, who is great hands-on practitioner and until day of today practicing medical massage, is not appropriate. Also I explain to you that “clasp knife reflex” that Gordon claiming as a therapy, is a result, of very difficult CNS disease. I also explained to you that millions of people, suffering from skeleton muscular pains, and to apply trigger point therapy as a part of orthopedic massage, is extremely important, but this people thank God do not suffering from extremely difficult neurological disease that resulting “clasp knife reflex”, and Gordon claiming he using “clasp knife reflex” for trigger point therapy is absolutely nonsense, nonprofessional and damaging to use language /terminology, because no medical health practitioner will accept us as a serious healthcare practitioners. It will be a disgrace for us to say something like this. To my very pleasant surprise you did listen to me, and it apologized to Dr. Ross for being rude to him. At the time I respected you very much . Because if person can realize the mistake, to change mine, and to apologize ,is telling about person’s qualities.
Did you read Gordon’s posts?????? after posting many replies, that most was about how good he is, he admitted, that he didn't read the original post, but finally after reading my original post he decided that everyone who after being in practice 15 years, knows it. Was this topic of my discussion????? By not reading a topic but posting whatever, is it disrespectful, nonprofessional distractions????? Absolutely.
Maybe you will listen to my advice again. You have to continue to study, in professional discussion participate by asking questions, sharing your experiences at student clinic, and to learn how not to behave, in a way Gordon did.
Gary W Addis said:Noel, FY edification, here is my post in its entirety:
"Boris, I honestly don't think Gordon or anyone else has attacked you or your methods. You're excited about your new program; Gordon is enthusiastic about the method he has been using for a time. No insult was intended, or implied, IMO.
After all, we are all on the same side, correct?
Peace to all. Merry Christmas to all."
What the heck is wrong with everybody? Is there a full moon or something in the water????
Noel, in which sentence did I imply that Boris was interested in the least in profit?--he has posted many, many, many educational videos to youtube, and as we all know, they're free to view and download and view again. Of course he hopes to earn a few dollars with his expertise. As we all do during our careers. Noel, I am certain that my friend Boris wasn't insulted by anything I said. So why are you defensive on his behalf? Granted, I felt compelled to come to my friend Gordon's defense when I felt he was being misunderstood by my friend Boris.
Yes, I consider both Boris and Gordon to be my friends--heck, I consider every massage therapist in the nation to be my friend! After all, aren't we brothers and sisters of a relatively small, oft-maligned, sometimes-praised family of massage & bodywork practitioners?
This is the Christmas season. Let's direct our ire at those outsiders who besmirch our profession.
merry Christmas, friend Noel.
Noel Norwick said:Gary: FYI - You are mistaken to believe that what Boris offers is just another new program or profit motivated & trademarked methodology. What he suggests is not based his obviously passionate opinions & personal experience, it's based on carefully validated Soviet medical research, his Soviet active & passive rehabilitation and injury prevention education and having been a clinical Soviet, Israeli and USA medical and sports massage provider. Through diligent practice he learned how to consistently provide therapeutically positive outcomes in what was a lethally unforgiving political society.
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Permalink Reply by Therese Schwartz on
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Boris, you are correct. I just got to the point that I'd had enough of what's going on! And in general I am very tolerant and polite - thanks for saying so!!
I've actually learned some useful stuff from Gordon - things that have really helped my clients. When he stays on topic he has some good knowledge. My husband and I tell people all the time that if they want to be taken seriously and want their ideas to be considered, they must present them in an intelligent and thoughtful way. Otherwise no matter what you have to say, you will not be taken seriously. I think you and your colleagues in your old country learned this the very hard way - there was zero tolerance for anything but a serious and professional discussion. I was hoping this site would be that way; I don't want Gary or Gordon to go away, but I would like to be able to come here to learn things without distractions. And I'm way off topic for the thread myself!
In keeping with your thoughts in your article (and I need to watch the video but I'm too tired tonight!), I'm frustrated and annoyed to learn that one of my nieces is going to have a steel rod put in her back in 3 weeks in an effort to deal with her high degree of scoliosis. It's so bad now that the doctor is promising only limited results. If there had been a team of people working together as you propose in your article she might have had some other options besides surgery.
Boris Prilutsky said:Dear Therese.
First of all thank you very much for post. As much I am following your posts, In general you are very tolerant and polite, most likely what was happened at my discussion got you to certain point. Back in my old country, at a time of professional discussion he wouldn't survive even one second , because most of the members will post protests to destruction, like you did. It because of everyone want to learn from topic. Or just leave site if one don't have interest in the topic . Thank you for raising voice. I never had nothing with Gordon, just felt obligated to correct his sometime nonsense claims, because didn't want some beginners therapists to adopt this ideas, and to continue to repeat it with other professionals who in such a case immediately will dismiss them, and of course never will refer patients. My biggest problem with Gordon, is nonstop distractions, at the time absolutely ignoring topic of discussion.
In my original post I described situation with our industry, as well proposed idea how to get recognition, and to change this not good condition. Usually one when reading the post,can agree with me,or one can propose some new ideas,or maybe will propose his/her opinion in regards of other causes for this condition or disagree with what I have expressed in my original post. But if one disagree, one must explain it, in acceptable way why he/she disagree. The practitioners who reading it can learn from it and a lot. I am sorry, until this point Gordon didn't offered nothing but distraction of professional discussion . Both Gary and Gordon, posted promise not to come back. Let's hope for this. In day or two I will post some additional information . the bottom line point, is to somehow get recognition which is patients referrals for our treatment. I am positive that additional to my idea there is many others additional one . Again thanks for post.
Best wishes.
Boris
Therese Schwartz said:Thanks to Boris, Noel, Daniel, Laura Allen and others who work to keep things on track here. I would like to reiterate that this is a public forum - accessible to anyone who wants to read it. It would be great if everyone who read the postings thought "wow, those people are educated, professional and have it together." Instead, those of us who want to learn something have to sort through insane postings from people having personal issues with each other. Some of us are hard headed enough to keep trying and others just give up - a loss to themselves and their clients.
Gordon - have your battle with Boris in private. I'm up front about what I've learned from you, but also have been frustrated enough with you to give up temporarily on this site. You make it difficult for the rest of us to get what we need here. Before you flame me for posting this, remember that you specifically asked us to let you know if you cause us problems. When you post about what you know and what you do, we all benefit.
Gary - I totally commend you on what you are doing! Very few people have the drive to start a new career late in life. Kudos, really! However, please stay on topic.
Before any of you point out that this post isn't on topic - yes, I know that. But I needed to say something about this.
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Dear Therese.
I'm really sorry to hear about your niece’s health trouble. In progressive stages grade #3, 50° plus unfortunately scoliosis must be addressed by surgical installment of steel rod. Sounds like a bit too late to offer some alternative but surgery. Just for general information. In cases of scoliosis 40° and less that was the results of fast skeleton development at the time of insufficient muscular support, we have a great protocol that can prevent troubles similar to your niece’s, complication and necessity for surgery. Practically it is reversible. I'm really sorry. In any case most likely will produce some instructional video on this subject in such a case you and other will be able to help with cases like this. I personally knew and had opportunity to work with Dr.Sheinerman MD,PhD who in my opinion is most knowledgeable medical massage practitioner/ clinician ever. I know well this methodology and will share it with all of you.BTW. . Doctors calling it idiopathic, unknown cause scoliosis. Dr.Sheinerman established the cause as an results of fast skeleton development at the time of insufficient muscular support. In such cases massage and tractions as well rehabilitative exercises making huge different.
Will continue my reply to your post tomorrow.
Best wishes.
Boris
Therese Schwartz said:Boris, you are correct. I just got to the point that I'd had enough of what's going on! And in general I am very tolerant and polite - thanks for saying so!!
I've actually learned some useful stuff from Gordon - things that have really helped my clients. When he stays on topic he has some good knowledge. My husband and I tell people all the time that if they want to be taken seriously and want their ideas to be considered, they must present them in an intelligent and thoughtful way. Otherwise no matter what you have to say, you will not be taken seriously. I think you and your colleagues in your old country learned this the very hard way - there was zero tolerance for anything but a serious and professional discussion. I was hoping this site would be that way; I don't want Gary or Gordon to go away, but I would like to be able to come here to learn things without distractions. And I'm way off topic for the thread myself!
In keeping with your thoughts in your article (and I need to watch the video but I'm too tired tonight!), I'm frustrated and annoyed to learn that one of my nieces is going to have a steel rod put in her back in 3 weeks in an effort to deal with her high degree of scoliosis. It's so bad now that the doctor is promising only limited results. If there had been a team of people working together as you propose in your article she might have had some other options besides surgery.
Boris Prilutsky said:Dear Therese.
First of all thank you very much for post. As much I am following your posts, In general you are very tolerant and polite, most likely what was happened at my discussion got you to certain point. Back in my old country, at a time of professional discussion he wouldn't survive even one second , because most of the members will post protests to destruction, like you did. It because of everyone want to learn from topic. Or just leave site if one don't have interest in the topic . Thank you for raising voice. I never had nothing with Gordon, just felt obligated to correct his sometime nonsense claims, because didn't want some beginners therapists to adopt this ideas, and to continue to repeat it with other professionals who in such a case immediately will dismiss them, and of course never will refer patients. My biggest problem with Gordon, is nonstop distractions, at the time absolutely ignoring topic of discussion.
In my original post I described situation with our industry, as well proposed idea how to get recognition, and to change this not good condition. Usually one when reading the post,can agree with me,or one can propose some new ideas,or maybe will propose his/her opinion in regards of other causes for this condition or disagree with what I have expressed in my original post. But if one disagree, one must explain it, in acceptable way why he/she disagree. The practitioners who reading it can learn from it and a lot. I am sorry, until this point Gordon didn't offered nothing but distraction of professional discussion . Both Gary and Gordon, posted promise not to come back. Let's hope for this. In day or two I will post some additional information . the bottom line point, is to somehow get recognition which is patients referrals for our treatment. I am positive that additional to my idea there is many others additional one . Again thanks for post.
Best wishes.
Boris
Therese Schwartz said:Thanks to Boris, Noel, Daniel, Laura Allen and others who work to keep things on track here. I would like to reiterate that this is a public forum - accessible to anyone who wants to read it. It would be great if everyone who read the postings thought "wow, those people are educated, professional and have it together." Instead, those of us who want to learn something have to sort through insane postings from people having personal issues with each other. Some of us are hard headed enough to keep trying and others just give up - a loss to themselves and their clients.
Gordon - have your battle with Boris in private. I'm up front about what I've learned from you, but also have been frustrated enough with you to give up temporarily on this site. You make it difficult for the rest of us to get what we need here. Before you flame me for posting this, remember that you specifically asked us to let you know if you cause us problems. When you post about what you know and what you do, we all benefit.
Gary - I totally commend you on what you are doing! Very few people have the drive to start a new career late in life. Kudos, really! However, please stay on topic.
Before any of you point out that this post isn't on topic - yes, I know that. But I needed to say something about this.
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Thanks Boris! She lives half of the US away from me so all I can do at this point is find her practitioners that can aid in her recovery. It's so unfortunate - she's only a teenager and this will be the rest of her life. I don't know any details about the degrees or stages - I'm not very knowledgeable about the details of scoliosis (crazy, since I have it myself!). I'm planning on taking a myofascial release class on scoliosis at some point, to help my clients that have it. A video from you would also be great!
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mostly this disorder affecting teenagers females.this type of scoliosis usually progressing to the point of growth completion.some lucky when this deformation will not reach more than 40° when growth is stopped. In such cases surgery is not necessary. Sorry that she in such troubles. God willing all will be great.
Best wishes.
Boris
Therese Schwartz said:Thanks Boris! She lives half of the US away from me so all I can do at this point is find her practitioners that can aid in her recovery. It's so unfortunate - she's only a teenager and this will be the rest of her life. I don't know any details about the degrees or stages - I'm not very knowledgeable about the details of scoliosis (crazy, since I have it myself!). I'm planning on taking a myofascial release class on scoliosis at some point, to help my clients that have it. A video from you would also be great!
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Again, thanks! Apparently hers is really bad - I wish I had more details so I could understand more what is happening. She's scared - can't say that I blame her! I am upset that this is happening.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on
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Boris, could you provide additional information on this type of scoliosis in another thread? I have a teen I work on with it. 25 degree has decreased to 16 but it has increased again with physical activity of gymnastics. I am sure information on this would be of interest. Is there terminology for this type of scoliosis that affects teenage girls? Should it stop increasing when she stops her growth?
Sorry to divert from the main topic.
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Dear Therese.
as I have promised, today I am extending on our conversation.
Soviet dictatorship system was very bad by all means,but in our fields, was zero tolerance for anything but a serious and professional discussion. Situation I described in my article must be change, because all of us including myself suffering from it. Pretty often my clients asking me about my prize being twice bigger, at the time on orthopedic massage I spending less than 1hr. usually in average question is: Boris how come on every corner you can find offer one hour massage for $39and you will charging double. With out going to details, I just answering that your doctor and/or physical therapist, or your friend who had some problem Refered you for a medical procedure. Usually it ends immediately, with full understanding. I don't want to explain that by charging $39, and even having every day six patients A. one cannot survive financially because of fixed expenses, including rent, licenses fees , professional liability insurance, general liability insurance, taxes etc.
B. we performing professional work and benefiting health , exhausting our hands why it should be much less than other similar therapies/procedures?
It shouldn't be this way. It's simply somehow have to change, and at this discussion I hope to convince people to adopt my idea, or to propose different and/or additional idea, how to get recognition/patience referrals from health professionals. At this year I participated at Nevada AMTA chapter convention. at conventional meeting this topic was discussed and chapter leadership proposed to start the project to outreach and to start working with healthcare professionals, including physical therapy department. This inspired me very much to convert my 20 years old VHS orthopedic massage/physical therapy aide/chiropractor assistant program, to electronic files suitable for DVD. By all means I will support this project and hopping that Nevada chapter will do it. It must be changed, and can be changed only if healthcare professionals will start referring For medical procedure. My program will provide adequate training, including my advice how to introduce your skills and your therapy benefits to medical doctors, physical therapists, chiropractors . Not to repeat myself but when you introducing all modalities that I'm proposing, everyone will listen careful, because after learning from my program you will explain it is scientifically sound language, Then you will have to deliver results. At this program I am teaching step-by-step protocols that not only scientifically sounds but working.We Will have less to talk, and more to do. And this is what my upcoming program is about. This program is not for everyone, but for people who knows that there is room for learning, who will trust and will accept me as an instructor, who will be ready to spend quality time to learn. It is very simple and easy to perform techniques, but it does demand studies. Honestly I personally don't want to answer why I'm charging more money than on every corner much less, I don't want my colleagues to struggling financially as well I want all of us to be proud healthcare professionals. This is possible. Dear Therese,and readers who following this post,
I hope I made clear myself, including what this discussion about, therefore there is no room at this discussion to talk on something else, but how to get recognition/ referrals from healthcare professionals.
Best wishes.
Boris
Therese Schwartz said:Again, thanks! Apparently hers is really bad - I wish I had more details so I could understand more what is happening. She's scared - can't say that I blame her! I am upset that this is happening.
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One of the things I love about studying CranioSacral Therapy (Upledger) is that it has been scientifically tested and shown to be effective. Another thing is that Upledger is a DO and has written his text books as a medical manual; they are geared toward the medical community. This means that when necessary we as practitioners can discuss our work in a scientifically sound way, one that is acceptable to the medical community. I know it's not one of the things you teach, but it fits beautifully into what you are trying to accomplish.
I don't charge as much as other people in my community - I work out of my house and so don't have the rent and other fixed prices that other people have. It's important to me to keep myself affordable ($50/hour) - many of my clients wouldn't be able to get treatment if I charged more than that. However, personally I haven't flinched at paying much more than that for people with extensive experience and knowledge. I hope people understand your prices after you explain it to them!
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I'm sorry, never had an opportunity to read from Upledger's text books as a medical manual,and in general don't know much about this methodology. But if this acceptable, by medical community and they are referring, and by providing this therapy you winning bottles against medication then it is very good.according to descriptions that I got from different people, orthopedic and medical massage protocols is a bit different.
in the regards of working from home, and $50 per hour, lucky you. If I would be able to work from home would charge the same amount. Good for you, honestly happy for you.
Best wishes.
Boris
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Daniel .Doctors calling it idiopathic which means unknown cause scoliosis. Dr.Sheinerman established the cause as an results of fast skeleton development at the time of insufficient muscular support. In such cases massage and tractions as well rehabilitative exercises making huge different. In these cases competitive or even regular gymnastic can be damaging, because stronger muscles will dominate/compensate and will increase scoliosis. Forgive me the example but in regards of position ,Spine like a kitchen door. Springs on both side of door, have to be equal in power otherwise if one will be stronger ,door will be pulled to stronger site. usually it stop increasing when she stops her growth.
Best wishes.
Boris.
Daniel Cohen said:Boris, could you provide additional information on this type of scoliosis in another thread? I have a teen I work on with it. 25 degree has decreased to 16 but it has increased again with physical activity of gymnastics. I am sure information on this would be of interest. Is there terminology for this type of scoliosis that affects teenage girls? Should it stop increasing when she stops her growth?
Sorry to divert from the main topic.
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If you ever get a chance, I think you'd appreciate Upledger's detail and approach. The books are hard to read for those of us without a medical background, but they are excellent - very detailed in anatomy and physiology.
Thanks - I think I'm lucky to be able to work from home! I have no kids or pets at home (my horse lives at a boarding facility), so that really helps. My clients never know what will be going on around here while I'm working on them - one day it was bringing in a new refrigerator, another day it was installing new duct work under the house while I had a client on the table! Luckily that only lasted about 10 minutes! But my clients aren't bothered by it at all - they all come here to hurt less, not to have a "spa" experience.
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