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What are your professional pet peeves?
We need some input for our Round the Table column in the next issue of Massage & Bodywork magazine. Reply with your answers and you just might see it printed in the next issue!
The question this time is:
As a massage therapist, what are some of your professional pet peeves?
Views: 6007
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
For example we can discuss what I have stated:” Trigger points is a results of myofascial dysfunction. cortisone injections into the trigger points also not a adequate treatment, even will contribute and significant to pain sensation reduction. Even orthopedic surgeons understanding it today, and referring to us to restore myofascial functions. In case if one will release tension within fascia and muscles and will not address trigger points, it also will be not adequate treatment.”
I just don't know this people you have mentioned, and it will be very unusual if I will invite to initiate these discussions. If this will happen I will be more than happy to invite my cousin living now in Canada. His medical massage practitioner, but also neurologist. Knows a lot. Also I will invite to discussion if it will happened Dr.Ross.
Best wishes.
Boris
PS. I never claiming superiority as you said.BTW. Feeling superior is very destructive and damaging to person who feel it. The biggest negligent mistakes done by surgeons, is done by this one who are feeling superior to other sections. Our mind is very sensitive and we should appreciate it.
Gary W Addis said:Sigh. A heartfelt sigh. Boris, you claim superiority in every post. BTW, Gordon didn't say anything in the post you jumped on him about that you yourself didn't just repeat.
Have a nice life, Boris.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary.you said:Boris, I am not going to get into another useless argument."
You just did attempt for another useless argument.my post was about, trigger point therapy only is not enough to reach sustained results. Also I asked Gordon to stop claiming superiority to other therapists who is less good than he think he is.it's just wrong to do.
If there is room to discuss, my post then to agree or disagree with what I have stated:” Trigger points is a results of myofascial dysfunction. cortisone injections into the trigger points also not a adequate treatment, even will contribute and significant to pain sensation reduction. Even orthopedic surgeons understanding it today, and referring to us to restore myofascial functions. In case if one will release tension within fascia and muscles and will not address trigger points, it also will be not adequate treatment.”
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not going to get into another useless argument.
I'll just point out that a large number of respected educator-therapists employ with great success their own particular brand of trigger point therapy. Ben Benjamin doesn't work exactly like his associate Tom Myers, yet both have successfully treated hundreds of clients. Likewise, Eric Dalton's methodologies differ significantly from those of either of his friends.
The late Clair Davies taught that "pumping" pressure was the absolute best method for releasing trigger points. In his book "The Concise Book of Trigger Points", Simeon Neil Asher details several techniques, including Post Isometric Relaxation; Reciprocal Inhibition; Contract and Relax; Isolytic Contraction; Isotonic Contraction; Isometric Contraction; Inhibition-Ischemic Compression; and Davies' Deep Stroking Massage Technique. There are too many methods to list them all.
Each of the above techniques has hundreds if not thousands of adherents. Daniel, Linda, Gordon, Stephen, Gloria, Diana, to name a few, have at one time or another probably tried them all before settling on techniques that work best for them most of the time. However, I think it is highly likely that when one technique doesn't work with a particular client, they reach into their store of knowledge and try something else. IOW, I think it likely that the majority of successful therapists maintain an open mind (i.e., they never stop learning).
Gordon, for instance, though he often comments about the ineffective treatments administered by most chiropractors, has adapted the trigger point release techniques taught by Kaufman and other chiropractors into his own practice-- IOW, he keeps an open mind.
Judging by your many comments to this forum, you believe that your way is the only way...that all other trigger point release techniques are harmful to the client, even dangerous. Hundreds, if not thousands of skilled therapists disagree...have been successfully treating their clients for decades using methodologies diametrically different from those you teach.
As for me, I'd love to plug into Gordon's brain and download his storehouse of knowledge; I'd love to learn Daniel's KMT, China's Tuina, and for those who don't want or need trigger point work I'd love to learn to administer lomi-lomi. I have availed myself of your teachings as well. I am 63, and realize that I will never learn it all if I live to be 163. I will soon become a licensed massage therapist. But I plan on remaining a student for the rest of my life: I will try very hard to maintain an open mind and not be judgmental.
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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on
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Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
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Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
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Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
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Maria, NY requires 1,000 hours. Is that credit hour or clock hour? Just curious. MS has just switched from credit hour to clock hour. 750 hours credit hour, have no idea what that translates into for clock hours
Maria C Slawkawski said:One thing that drives me absolutely nuts about this profession is the amount of unlicensed people there are. In NY state they are changing the continuing education requirements and fees but they refuse to do anything about the people practicing without licenses. It makes me so crazy when people come into my office and say, "I tried the healthy feet place around the corner. You know, their prices are half that of yours and they are always so busy in there." As if to say that I don't work hard for every penny I charge. I charge fair prices and these people are throwing it in my face that they are getting a cheaper massage. It's even worse when I politely mention that I don't believe they are licensed and they say, "yeah I didn't think they were."
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Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
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you said :” Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous. “
I didn't condemned nothing but, Gordon’s description of clasp knife reflex as a methodology of treatment.
as you described what you did to this lady, you did perform dangerous techniques. When patients come and complaining on pain, no one of us including,MDs can be sure that there is excluded muscles ,ligaments, tendons partial tears, until MRI wasn't performed, even if MRI will exclude tears, no one can predict how strong are tendons, ligaments attachments.
At Number two, you are describing isometric not dangerous tensions, but by all means this condition cannot reveal localizations of trigger points.
But when:” therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction”
this force transmitting significant power, to tendons, ligaments attachments, and very possible can results in tears. You claimed releasing 19 trigger points. Trigger points have to be eliminated.
Sometimes , it just happened, when people suffering from brain lesions, at the time of clasp knife reflex activation, somebody careful pushing against constricted muscles, mentioned above tears do happened.
Is it justified risk treatment, for healthy people? Is it only treatment available?
Gary I hope was helpful for you, but at least hoping that other will be aware.
You have two choices, is to take personal which will be destructive for your future, and will put in danger your clients, or just to believe in my good intentions and to listen, maybe you will hear.
Best wishes.
Boris
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
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n effect what you are saying, Boris, is that you are specially qualified to pass judgment on others, but no one can judge you. Astonishing.
You attempt to distract an argument with trivialities, inserting a few sentences here and there that have nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. Or is it your asinine assertion that my comment "playing games" is the subject of this debate?
Boris, I have not even remotely claimed to be an educator. I merely reiterate the fact that your rant that your methods of treating trigger points is the ONE correct method is proven wrong every day by thousands of licensed therapists. The techniques I listed, Boris, are in fact releasing trigger points as I speak.
Please repeat for me my description of trigger points, Boris, because I don't remember posting any. Trigger point therapy is not anything new--it is in fact older than perhaps you know--Chinese Tuina practitioners were releasing trigger points about 6000 years before Dr Travell was born (a trigger point by any other name is still a trigger point). Travell and Simon taught spray and stretch or inject and stretch. When their textbooks were written, those were the only accepted means of trigger point therapy. So evidently, "scientific fact" as you referred to it has evolved, eh? I was taught 50 years ago in grade school that a scientist never refers to anything as an absolute-- were my science teachers wrong? The scientific knowledge base expands; theories/methodologies evolve as new "facts" are discovered and added to the database.
I agree with your statement that trigger point therapy isn't everything--the pain isn't always caused by a trigger point. Serious injuries to bone, ligaments, vertebrae or muscles may be the cause--it can even be referred to the muscles from an internal organ.
Boris, you clearly are judging without bothering to investigate for yourself. What you (and Gordon) referred to as clasp knife reflex and I and educator Asher refer to as Isolytic Contraction Technique is not, as you describe resulting from "a brain lesion". A muscle movement consists of two parts: concentric and eccentric. Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
An explanation for those who might not know: A barbell curl, for instance. After a trainer lifts the weight concentrically as many times as he can, a friend helps him lift it once more; on the downward stroke, the friend increases the resistance felt by the trainer by pulling downward on the barbell...the trainer resists and resists...and eventually the bicep surrenders and the weight pulls the arm into a straight arm position. Slightly different usage of eccentric/concentric contractions in the TP technique--the client is employing only 10-25% of his/her total strength, so it is easily overcome.
But to my astonishment you've also disputed the efficacy of Reciprocal Inhibition Technique. Commonsense alone ought to convince you to try it. It is based on the simple and factual proposition that for a muscle to contract, its opposing muscle must relax. A trigger point is a complete contraction of one or more strands of muscle: to help the hypertense tissue to relax, you apply pressure to its opposition. An example: rhomboid has a TP. Compress it as usual, then with the other hand, manipulate its antagonist (serratus anterior), bringing it into contraction. The trigger point will relax. The other techniques I mentioned--that Gordon has in the past mentioned-- all work on the same principle. Actually, Travell and Simon's spray-and-stetch and inject-and-stretch techniques also take advantage of the same kinesiological fact.
Boris, your explanations of why this-or-that is dangerous to my client without having touched my client is ethically wrong. I'm an easy target: I am in fact still a student. But you carefully avoid criticizing your educator peers, unless they are dead. FYI, an instructor with more than 20 years experience was in the room when I worked on this lady. I called the client this afternoon asking her to come in for a follow-up, and she is still pain free.
Will you be respectful of others, and take this argument to our private inboxes and off the forum? Or, as I believe you will do, you can post a long diatribe in response to this posting, lecturing me and aggrandizing yourself. But I will not see it. I have chosen not to burden others with our argument. How about it? Can your ego stand to conduct this debate in private?
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
-
-
Gary.Your comment "playing games" was a discussion. I mean you wrote list of educators, who according to you teaching trigger point as individual procedure,and/or teaching definition of trigger point and morphology of trigger points, as well way of treatment differently than I do.
Therefore I said and will repeat, because of this confusing situation educators have to come together, and to discuss it in order to clarify. We owe it to community. With this 1000s alternative names we are divided and that doesn't serve as well.BTW. Most of spas, massage centers, started suffering losses, because people cannot afford just feels good, and this massage centers and spas can start receiving referrals from Drs. but for this matter we have to be more united, and we have to talk one language, maybe two or three but not 1000s, and all have to be massage language.
this is what you described:” I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. “
This ,Has nothing to do with trigger points. Trigger points, scientifically defines as an pinpoint localization of pain. Morphology was established by utilizing histological study/biopsy.
What possible is that I and you using “trigger points” and differently understanding what is it.
BTW. Chinese practitioners never used and never using “trigger points” terminology, but accupoints.
You saying :Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
I never said that rational isolytic contraction has something to do with brain lesions, but clasp knife reflex is a results of it.
What you refusing to understand that when somebody in pain to utilize isolytic contraction is just dangerous, and can lead to tears. This all. It is unjustified risk methodology.
Travell and Simons book, containing great presentation, of anatomy , physiology and pathology, never was writing for massage therapists, but for doctors, as an a guide for injections.
They never advocated ischemic compression, therefore my proposal lets not discuss it.
Please check your inbox, and you will find my yesterday e- mail to you, where i requested not to post stuff that you not really competent, otherwise and because other people reading I will have to reply. In the past, I also asked Gordon privately the same and even more.
Just to make constructive our discussion please read trigger points scientific review.
http://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/1110/medical.aspx
Best wishes.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:n effect what you are saying, Boris, is that you are specially qualified to pass judgment on others, but no one can judge you. Astonishing.
You attempt to distract an argument with trivialities, inserting a few sentences here and there that have nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. Or is it your asinine assertion that my comment "playing games" is the subject of this debate?
Boris, I have not even remotely claimed to be an educator. I merely reiterate the fact that your rant that your methods of treating trigger points is the ONE correct method is proven wrong every day by thousands of licensed therapists. The techniques I listed, Boris, are in fact releasing trigger points as I speak.
Please repeat for me my description of trigger points, Boris, because I don't remember posting any. Trigger point therapy is not anything new--it is in fact older than perhaps you know--Chinese Tuina practitioners were releasing trigger points about 6000 years before Dr Travell was born (a trigger point by any other name is still a trigger point). Travell and Simon taught spray and stretch or inject and stretch. When their textbooks were written, those were the only accepted means of trigger point therapy. So evidently, "scientific fact" as you referred to it has evolved, eh? I was taught 50 years ago in grade school that a scientist never refers to anything as an absolute-- were my science teachers wrong? The scientific knowledge base expands; theories/methodologies evolve as new "facts" are discovered and added to the database.
I agree with your statement that trigger point therapy isn't everything--the pain isn't always caused by a trigger point. Serious injuries to bone, ligaments, vertebrae or muscles may be the cause--it can even be referred to the muscles from an internal organ.
Boris, you clearly are judging without bothering to investigate for yourself. What you (and Gordon) referred to as clasp knife reflex and I and educator Asher refer to as Isolytic Contraction Technique is not, as you describe resulting from "a brain lesion". A muscle movement consists of two parts: concentric and eccentric. Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
An explanation for those who might not know: A barbell curl, for instance. After a trainer lifts the weight concentrically as many times as he can, a friend helps him lift it once more; on the downward stroke, the friend increases the resistance felt by the trainer by pulling downward on the barbell...the trainer resists and resists...and eventually the bicep surrenders and the weight pulls the arm into a straight arm position. Slightly different usage of eccentric/concentric contractions in the TP technique--the client is employing only 10-25% of his/her total strength, so it is easily overcome.
But to my astonishment you've also disputed the efficacy of Reciprocal Inhibition Technique. Commonsense alone ought to convince you to try it. It is based on the simple and factual proposition that for a muscle to contract, its opposing muscle must relax. A trigger point is a complete contraction of one or more strands of muscle: to help the hypertense tissue to relax, you apply pressure to its opposition. An example: rhomboid has a TP. Compress it as usual, then with the other hand, manipulate its antagonist (serratus anterior), bringing it into contraction. The trigger point will relax. The other techniques I mentioned--that Gordon has in the past mentioned-- all work on the same principle. Actually, Travell and Simon's spray-and-stetch and inject-and-stretch techniques also take advantage of the same kinesiological fact.
Boris, your explanations of why this-or-that is dangerous to my client without having touched my client is ethically wrong. I'm an easy target: I am in fact still a student. But you carefully avoid criticizing your educator peers, unless they are dead. FYI, an instructor with more than 20 years experience was in the room when I worked on this lady. I called the client this afternoon asking her to come in for a follow-up, and she is still pain free.
Will you be respectful of others, and take this argument to our private inboxes and off the forum? Or, as I believe you will do, you can post a long diatribe in response to this posting, lecturing me and aggrandizing yourself. But I will not see it. I have chosen not to burden others with our argument. How about it? Can your ego stand to conduct this debate in private?
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
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http://kenthealth.com/
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary.Your comment "playing games" was a discussion. I mean you wrote list of educators, who according to you teaching trigger point as individual procedure,and/or teaching definition of trigger point and morphology of trigger points, as well way of treatment differently than I do.
Therefore I said and will repeat, because of this confusing situation educators have to come together, and to discuss it in order to clarify. We owe it to community. With this 1000s alternative names we are divided and that doesn't serve as well.BTW. Most of spas, massage centers, started suffering losses, because people cannot afford just feels good, and this massage centers and spas can start receiving referrals from Drs. but for this matter we have to be more united, and we have to talk one language, maybe two or three but not 1000s, and all have to be massage language.
this is what you described:” I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. “
This ,Has nothing to do with trigger points. Trigger points, scientifically defines as an pinpoint localization of pain. Morphology was established by utilizing histological study/biopsy.
What possible is that I and you using “trigger points” and differently understanding what is it.
BTW. Chinese practitioners never used and never using “trigger points” terminology, but accupoints.
You saying :Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
I never said that rational isolytic contraction has something to do with brain lesions, but clasp knife reflex is a results of it.
What you refusing to understand that when somebody in pain to utilize isolytic contraction is just dangerous, and can lead to tears. This all. It is unjustified risk methodology.
Travell and Simons book, containing great presentation, of anatomy , physiology and pathology, never was writing for massage therapists, but for doctors, as an a guide for injections.
They never advocated ischemic compression, therefore my proposal lets not discuss it.
Please check your inbox, and you will find my yesterday e- mail to you, where i requested not to post stuff that you not really competent, otherwise and because other people reading I will have to reply. In the past, I also asked Gordon privately the same and even more.
Just to make constructive our discussion please read trigger points scientific review.
http://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/1110/medical.aspx
Best wishes.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:n effect what you are saying, Boris, is that you are specially qualified to pass judgment on others, but no one can judge you. Astonishing.
You attempt to distract an argument with trivialities, inserting a few sentences here and there that have nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. Or is it your asinine assertion that my comment "playing games" is the subject of this debate?
Boris, I have not even remotely claimed to be an educator. I merely reiterate the fact that your rant that your methods of treating trigger points is the ONE correct method is proven wrong every day by thousands of licensed therapists. The techniques I listed, Boris, are in fact releasing trigger points as I speak.
Please repeat for me my description of trigger points, Boris, because I don't remember posting any. Trigger point therapy is not anything new--it is in fact older than perhaps you know--Chinese Tuina practitioners were releasing trigger points about 6000 years before Dr Travell was born (a trigger point by any other name is still a trigger point). Travell and Simon taught spray and stretch or inject and stretch. When their textbooks were written, those were the only accepted means of trigger point therapy. So evidently, "scientific fact" as you referred to it has evolved, eh? I was taught 50 years ago in grade school that a scientist never refers to anything as an absolute-- were my science teachers wrong? The scientific knowledge base expands; theories/methodologies evolve as new "facts" are discovered and added to the database.
I agree with your statement that trigger point therapy isn't everything--the pain isn't always caused by a trigger point. Serious injuries to bone, ligaments, vertebrae or muscles may be the cause--it can even be referred to the muscles from an internal organ.
Boris, you clearly are judging without bothering to investigate for yourself. What you (and Gordon) referred to as clasp knife reflex and I and educator Asher refer to as Isolytic Contraction Technique is not, as you describe resulting from "a brain lesion". A muscle movement consists of two parts: concentric and eccentric. Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
An explanation for those who might not know: A barbell curl, for instance. After a trainer lifts the weight concentrically as many times as he can, a friend helps him lift it once more; on the downward stroke, the friend increases the resistance felt by the trainer by pulling downward on the barbell...the trainer resists and resists...and eventually the bicep surrenders and the weight pulls the arm into a straight arm position. Slightly different usage of eccentric/concentric contractions in the TP technique--the client is employing only 10-25% of his/her total strength, so it is easily overcome.
But to my astonishment you've also disputed the efficacy of Reciprocal Inhibition Technique. Commonsense alone ought to convince you to try it. It is based on the simple and factual proposition that for a muscle to contract, its opposing muscle must relax. A trigger point is a complete contraction of one or more strands of muscle: to help the hypertense tissue to relax, you apply pressure to its opposition. An example: rhomboid has a TP. Compress it as usual, then with the other hand, manipulate its antagonist (serratus anterior), bringing it into contraction. The trigger point will relax. The other techniques I mentioned--that Gordon has in the past mentioned-- all work on the same principle. Actually, Travell and Simon's spray-and-stetch and inject-and-stretch techniques also take advantage of the same kinesiological fact.
Boris, your explanations of why this-or-that is dangerous to my client without having touched my client is ethically wrong. I'm an easy target: I am in fact still a student. But you carefully avoid criticizing your educator peers, unless they are dead. FYI, an instructor with more than 20 years experience was in the room when I worked on this lady. I called the client this afternoon asking her to come in for a follow-up, and she is still pain free.
Will you be respectful of others, and take this argument to our private inboxes and off the forum? Or, as I believe you will do, you can post a long diatribe in response to this posting, lecturing me and aggrandizing yourself. But I will not see it. I have chosen not to burden others with our argument. How about it? Can your ego stand to conduct this debate in private?
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
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http://www.massagetoday.com/mpacms/mt/search.php?q=trigger+points&a...
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://kenthealth.com/
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary.Your comment "playing games" was a discussion. I mean you wrote list of educators, who according to you teaching trigger point as individual procedure,and/or teaching definition of trigger point and morphology of trigger points, as well way of treatment differently than I do.
Therefore I said and will repeat, because of this confusing situation educators have to come together, and to discuss it in order to clarify. We owe it to community. With this 1000s alternative names we are divided and that doesn't serve as well.BTW. Most of spas, massage centers, started suffering losses, because people cannot afford just feels good, and this massage centers and spas can start receiving referrals from Drs. but for this matter we have to be more united, and we have to talk one language, maybe two or three but not 1000s, and all have to be massage language.
this is what you described:” I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. “
This ,Has nothing to do with trigger points. Trigger points, scientifically defines as an pinpoint localization of pain. Morphology was established by utilizing histological study/biopsy.
What possible is that I and you using “trigger points” and differently understanding what is it.
BTW. Chinese practitioners never used and never using “trigger points” terminology, but accupoints.
You saying :Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
I never said that rational isolytic contraction has something to do with brain lesions, but clasp knife reflex is a results of it.
What you refusing to understand that when somebody in pain to utilize isolytic contraction is just dangerous, and can lead to tears. This all. It is unjustified risk methodology.
Travell and Simons book, containing great presentation, of anatomy , physiology and pathology, never was writing for massage therapists, but for doctors, as an a guide for injections.
They never advocated ischemic compression, therefore my proposal lets not discuss it.
Please check your inbox, and you will find my yesterday e- mail to you, where i requested not to post stuff that you not really competent, otherwise and because other people reading I will have to reply. In the past, I also asked Gordon privately the same and even more.
Just to make constructive our discussion please read trigger points scientific review.
http://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/1110/medical.aspx
Best wishes.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:n effect what you are saying, Boris, is that you are specially qualified to pass judgment on others, but no one can judge you. Astonishing.
You attempt to distract an argument with trivialities, inserting a few sentences here and there that have nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. Or is it your asinine assertion that my comment "playing games" is the subject of this debate?
Boris, I have not even remotely claimed to be an educator. I merely reiterate the fact that your rant that your methods of treating trigger points is the ONE correct method is proven wrong every day by thousands of licensed therapists. The techniques I listed, Boris, are in fact releasing trigger points as I speak.
Please repeat for me my description of trigger points, Boris, because I don't remember posting any. Trigger point therapy is not anything new--it is in fact older than perhaps you know--Chinese Tuina practitioners were releasing trigger points about 6000 years before Dr Travell was born (a trigger point by any other name is still a trigger point). Travell and Simon taught spray and stretch or inject and stretch. When their textbooks were written, those were the only accepted means of trigger point therapy. So evidently, "scientific fact" as you referred to it has evolved, eh? I was taught 50 years ago in grade school that a scientist never refers to anything as an absolute-- were my science teachers wrong? The scientific knowledge base expands; theories/methodologies evolve as new "facts" are discovered and added to the database.
I agree with your statement that trigger point therapy isn't everything--the pain isn't always caused by a trigger point. Serious injuries to bone, ligaments, vertebrae or muscles may be the cause--it can even be referred to the muscles from an internal organ.
Boris, you clearly are judging without bothering to investigate for yourself. What you (and Gordon) referred to as clasp knife reflex and I and educator Asher refer to as Isolytic Contraction Technique is not, as you describe resulting from "a brain lesion". A muscle movement consists of two parts: concentric and eccentric. Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
An explanation for those who might not know: A barbell curl, for instance. After a trainer lifts the weight concentrically as many times as he can, a friend helps him lift it once more; on the downward stroke, the friend increases the resistance felt by the trainer by pulling downward on the barbell...the trainer resists and resists...and eventually the bicep surrenders and the weight pulls the arm into a straight arm position. Slightly different usage of eccentric/concentric contractions in the TP technique--the client is employing only 10-25% of his/her total strength, so it is easily overcome.
But to my astonishment you've also disputed the efficacy of Reciprocal Inhibition Technique. Commonsense alone ought to convince you to try it. It is based on the simple and factual proposition that for a muscle to contract, its opposing muscle must relax. A trigger point is a complete contraction of one or more strands of muscle: to help the hypertense tissue to relax, you apply pressure to its opposition. An example: rhomboid has a TP. Compress it as usual, then with the other hand, manipulate its antagonist (serratus anterior), bringing it into contraction. The trigger point will relax. The other techniques I mentioned--that Gordon has in the past mentioned-- all work on the same principle. Actually, Travell and Simon's spray-and-stetch and inject-and-stretch techniques also take advantage of the same kinesiological fact.
Boris, your explanations of why this-or-that is dangerous to my client without having touched my client is ethically wrong. I'm an easy target: I am in fact still a student. But you carefully avoid criticizing your educator peers, unless they are dead. FYI, an instructor with more than 20 years experience was in the room when I worked on this lady. I called the client this afternoon asking her to come in for a follow-up, and she is still pain free.
Will you be respectful of others, and take this argument to our private inboxes and off the forum? Or, as I believe you will do, you can post a long diatribe in response to this posting, lecturing me and aggrandizing yourself. But I will not see it. I have chosen not to burden others with our argument. How about it? Can your ego stand to conduct this debate in private?
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
-
-
http://saveyourself.ca/tutorials/trigger-points.php Worth reading . Unless you know everything already.
http://www.orthomassage.net/instructors
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://www.massagetoday.com/mpacms/mt/search.php?q=trigger+points&a...
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://kenthealth.com/
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary.Your comment "playing games" was a discussion. I mean you wrote list of educators, who according to you teaching trigger point as individual procedure,and/or teaching definition of trigger point and morphology of trigger points, as well way of treatment differently than I do.
Therefore I said and will repeat, because of this confusing situation educators have to come together, and to discuss it in order to clarify. We owe it to community. With this 1000s alternative names we are divided and that doesn't serve as well.BTW. Most of spas, massage centers, started suffering losses, because people cannot afford just feels good, and this massage centers and spas can start receiving referrals from Drs. but for this matter we have to be more united, and we have to talk one language, maybe two or three but not 1000s, and all have to be massage language.
this is what you described:” I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. “
This ,Has nothing to do with trigger points. Trigger points, scientifically defines as an pinpoint localization of pain. Morphology was established by utilizing histological study/biopsy.
What possible is that I and you using “trigger points” and differently understanding what is it.
BTW. Chinese practitioners never used and never using “trigger points” terminology, but accupoints.
You saying :Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
I never said that rational isolytic contraction has something to do with brain lesions, but clasp knife reflex is a results of it.
What you refusing to understand that when somebody in pain to utilize isolytic contraction is just dangerous, and can lead to tears. This all. It is unjustified risk methodology.
Travell and Simons book, containing great presentation, of anatomy , physiology and pathology, never was writing for massage therapists, but for doctors, as an a guide for injections.
They never advocated ischemic compression, therefore my proposal lets not discuss it.
Please check your inbox, and you will find my yesterday e- mail to you, where i requested not to post stuff that you not really competent, otherwise and because other people reading I will have to reply. In the past, I also asked Gordon privately the same and even more.
Just to make constructive our discussion please read trigger points scientific review.
http://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/1110/medical.aspx
Best wishes.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:n effect what you are saying, Boris, is that you are specially qualified to pass judgment on others, but no one can judge you. Astonishing.
You attempt to distract an argument with trivialities, inserting a few sentences here and there that have nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. Or is it your asinine assertion that my comment "playing games" is the subject of this debate?
Boris, I have not even remotely claimed to be an educator. I merely reiterate the fact that your rant that your methods of treating trigger points is the ONE correct method is proven wrong every day by thousands of licensed therapists. The techniques I listed, Boris, are in fact releasing trigger points as I speak.
Please repeat for me my description of trigger points, Boris, because I don't remember posting any. Trigger point therapy is not anything new--it is in fact older than perhaps you know--Chinese Tuina practitioners were releasing trigger points about 6000 years before Dr Travell was born (a trigger point by any other name is still a trigger point). Travell and Simon taught spray and stretch or inject and stretch. When their textbooks were written, those were the only accepted means of trigger point therapy. So evidently, "scientific fact" as you referred to it has evolved, eh? I was taught 50 years ago in grade school that a scientist never refers to anything as an absolute-- were my science teachers wrong? The scientific knowledge base expands; theories/methodologies evolve as new "facts" are discovered and added to the database.
I agree with your statement that trigger point therapy isn't everything--the pain isn't always caused by a trigger point. Serious injuries to bone, ligaments, vertebrae or muscles may be the cause--it can even be referred to the muscles from an internal organ.
Boris, you clearly are judging without bothering to investigate for yourself. What you (and Gordon) referred to as clasp knife reflex and I and educator Asher refer to as Isolytic Contraction Technique is not, as you describe resulting from "a brain lesion". A muscle movement consists of two parts: concentric and eccentric. Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
An explanation for those who might not know: A barbell curl, for instance. After a trainer lifts the weight concentrically as many times as he can, a friend helps him lift it once more; on the downward stroke, the friend increases the resistance felt by the trainer by pulling downward on the barbell...the trainer resists and resists...and eventually the bicep surrenders and the weight pulls the arm into a straight arm position. Slightly different usage of eccentric/concentric contractions in the TP technique--the client is employing only 10-25% of his/her total strength, so it is easily overcome.
But to my astonishment you've also disputed the efficacy of Reciprocal Inhibition Technique. Commonsense alone ought to convince you to try it. It is based on the simple and factual proposition that for a muscle to contract, its opposing muscle must relax. A trigger point is a complete contraction of one or more strands of muscle: to help the hypertense tissue to relax, you apply pressure to its opposition. An example: rhomboid has a TP. Compress it as usual, then with the other hand, manipulate its antagonist (serratus anterior), bringing it into contraction. The trigger point will relax. The other techniques I mentioned--that Gordon has in the past mentioned-- all work on the same principle. Actually, Travell and Simon's spray-and-stetch and inject-and-stretch techniques also take advantage of the same kinesiological fact.
Boris, your explanations of why this-or-that is dangerous to my client without having touched my client is ethically wrong. I'm an easy target: I am in fact still a student. But you carefully avoid criticizing your educator peers, unless they are dead. FYI, an instructor with more than 20 years experience was in the room when I worked on this lady. I called the client this afternoon asking her to come in for a follow-up, and she is still pain free.
Will you be respectful of others, and take this argument to our private inboxes and off the forum? Or, as I believe you will do, you can post a long diatribe in response to this posting, lecturing me and aggrandizing yourself. But I will not see it. I have chosen not to burden others with our argument. How about it? Can your ego stand to conduct this debate in private?
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
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