Skeptical about Energy Work

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Laura Allen on December 14, 2009 at 8:22pm

I'm not lurking and snickering; I'll jump right in :)

In 1993 when I attended my first energy work class, I came home and told my husband all about it. His reply: "Do people really believe that sh__t?" LOL

At this point in time, his would be more likely to say "You mean they don't believe that?"

When I attended massage school five years later, at a woo-woo school, I was exposed to a lot more along the same vein. I'm always open to research, and I'm always open to new ways of thinking. I've cast aside some of my old ways and some of the things I learned there, and kept some of the others. I hope that the last day I am open to learning anything is the last day I draw a breath.

Stefanie Adams said:

Chris,

I don't know if a skeptical discussion on energy work is helpful or not. BTW, I'm a skeptic.

I tried new-age spirituality on for size a few years back. That was when I made the career change from database systems developer to massage practitioner. I have since discovered the cold, hard truth that I am a skeptic at heart. Live and learn!

My point is that debate did not influence my beliefs either way. I drew my own conclusions based on life experience. When I was a believer in energy work, skeptical debate only solidified my beliefs that "surely something else is out there". Now that I'm a skeptic, discussions on energy work only solidify my beliefs in science. Isn't that human nature? Doesn't opposition only serve to polarize?

My question is, what is your goal in a skeptical discussion on energy work? Who will benefit, and how? I foresee only us skeptics participating, smugly affirming our astute scientific observations of the world, while the energy workers lurk and snicker at our short sightedness... ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Stefanie Adams on December 14, 2009 at 8:36pm

Hmmm, what transitioned me from a believer to a skeptic...I've never actually reflected on the process. Looking back, I don't think I ever really believed. I just WANTED to believe, and desperately TRIED to find a belief system that worked for me.

My father was and still is a fundamentalist Christian preacher. As a small child I remember skeptical thoughts that were never answered as I matured. When I left home I decided to try other religions and philosophies, all of which made me feel empty and frustrated. During and after massage school I tried so hard to "feel" energy work, to accept God's healing. It never happened. Again, I was empty and frustrated and realized it was time to embrace my skepticism.

That's why I'm wondering what good could come out of a skeptical discussion. Skeptics will continue to be skeptical, and believers will continue to believe. You can't force folks to believe something they don't.

I don't see any problem allowing both energy work and evidence-based treatment to co-exist separately and peacefully. I separate myself professionally from energy work through the language I use on my marketing materials and while communicating with clients. My treatment space is warm and inviting but conspicuously devoid of candles and "eastern" design elements. I attract clients who appreciate a scientific approach, but no one else.

I haven't sensed my practice is being held back by any association with energy work. I keep up on the latest scientific research and communicate significant findings to my clients. As long as research continues, how can massage therapy possibly remain as developed as it is now? I don't see the profession stagnating.

Yep, I believe I am polarized now. Nothing positive can result from debate!!!!

(I'm just joshin')

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Permalink Reply by Vlad on December 14, 2009 at 8:46pm

I'm no fan of religion, by the way, but that's another topic for another site, isn't it?
But this isn't actually religion, is it?
Actually, observing some of the threads and discussions on this and another site remind me a little of some of the tones of discussions on the creationism vs evolution sites. I know that might sound crazy, but it shows how deep the belief goes. I was trying to make the point that the belief is held so close, that it's nearly as deeply held as a religion.

Some of the undertones of the discussions saddens me in a way.
See, the way I see it is that the whole research surge is going to be like a big wave of change that can only bring the profession forward - it'll wash away uncertainty and raise levels of truth, knowledge, integrity and respectability in our profession. And everyone knows there's a lot of research to be done.
It's a bit disheartening when there's nearly like a mini-war going on.
Yep, it's sad. We should all be excited and wanting to learn and get involved, but I don't really see much evidence of excitement or enthusiasm on any of the sites. What I see the most is people shouting at each other (in bytestreams).

Some folks may find this shocking, but I disagree that beliefs need to be respected.
Well, see, if it runs deep, then that's where the problems come in (I think).
You like to be challenged, for sure. You probably love it when your students challenge you.
But you also have to remember the type of person you're challenging on this forum and their reactions. I think that most therapists are non-confrontational. It's not in our nature (at least, it's not in mine). But having said that I think that most of us are open to learning and we realize that our field is in a major evolutionary stage and pardon the reference to evolution again.

Lately, I've been thinking more about the difference between how therapists and patients think, versus how researchers think
Actually, I think you might be surprised at how therapists think. I see myself as a researcher for my own practice for my own clients all the time and I wouldn't be surprised if most therapists thought the same. I think most of us question what is going on more than you might think. Sometimes I wonder if all I do is make them sleep better and that it's recuperative sleep that is actually reducing the client's pain levels rather than the massage itself (we probably hear "I'm going to sleep well tonight" at least once during the day - is their improved sleep helping with their arthritis pain more than the actual massage?) Sometimes I wonder if the fact that they slept most of the session itself is what makes them feel better. Sometimes I wonder if their endorphin levels are raised more from the fact that when the clients want me to talk to them I can sometimes make them laugh harder than they would at an Austin Powers movie (OK, that might be an exaggeration). As far as the manual work goes, I think we're continually trying to be little researchers in our own practices for the sake of our clients.

I don't know how successful I would be in using a different style, but I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter if you have them

Teach us.
See the way you have that article posted on about affective massage therapy? It's info like that that make us think (and by the way, I have some questions on it which you should throw up on a new discussion thread. Vlad might become active). Do more of that. Spend more time teaching us rather than challenging beliefs and I bet you'll get more people questioning why they believe some of the things they do. I bet you get a better reaction that way. I'm sure you'll get people interested in your work.
If you're going to reply with "Take a course, I couldn't be bothered teaching" - you have a point, but even a wee bit of teaching is always a good thing in my book.


Talking (or writing) of sleeping - I bet anyone that started reading this reply is having some ZZZzzzz's now!

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Permalink Reply by Kim Goral on December 14, 2009 at 9:18pm

Is there a like button somewhere? ;) (please..really..come back to the science based site!) I think you touched on a lot of great points.

Stefanie, I think you are correct to a degree about debates being polarizing. Chances are, anyone with their mind made up on either side will cling deeper to those beliefs in the heat of a debate. However, anyone in the middle, on the fence, could easily re-evaluate their beliefs, and maybe even change them in a rational, civilized debate. I think that has value.

Teaching has value..I know I have learned a LOT about research and things in the massage community over the past few months. Challenging beliefs has its place..but I think you need to teach and challenge together. That's how I have learned the most, so thanks, Chris.

I hope this thread continues to progress like this, I think we can all learn something.


Vlad said:

I'm no fan of religion, by the way, but that's another topic for another site, isn't it?
But this isn't actually religion, is it?
Actually, observing some of the threads and discussions on this and another site remind me a little of some of the tones of discussions on the creationism vs evolution sites. I know that might sound crazy, but it shows how deep the belief goes. I was trying to make the point that the belief is held so close, that it's nearly as deeply held as a religion.

Some of the undertones of the discussions saddens me in a way.
See, the way I see it is that the whole research surge is going to be like a big wave of change that can only bring the profession forward - it'll wash away uncertainty and raise levels of truth, knowledge, integrity and respectability in our profession. And everyone knows there's a lot of research to be done.
It's a bit disheartening when there's nearly like a mini-war going on.
Yep, it's sad. We should all be excited and wanting to learn and get involved, but I don't really see much evidence of excitement or enthusiasm on any of the sites. What I see the most is people shouting at each other (in bytestreams).

Some folks may find this shocking, but I disagree that beliefs need to be respected.
Well, see, if it runs deep, then that's where the problems come in (I think).
You like to be challenged, for sure. You probably love it when your students challenge you.
But you also have to remember the type of person you're challenging on this forum and their reactions. I think that most therapists are non-confrontational. It's not in our nature (at least, it's not in mine). But having said that I think that most of us are open to learning and we realize that our field is in a major evolutionary stage and pardon the reference to evolution again.

Lately, I've been thinking more about the difference between how therapists and patients think, versus how researchers think
Actually, I think you might be surprised at how therapists think. I see myself as a researcher for my own practice for my own clients all the time and I wouldn't be surprised if most therapists thought the same. I think most of us question what is going on more than you might think. Sometimes I wonder if all I do is make them sleep better and that it's recuperative sleep that is actually reducing the client's pain levels rather than the massage itself (we probably hear "I'm going to sleep well tonight" at least once during the day - is their improved sleep helping with their arthritis pain more than the actual massage?) Sometimes I wonder if the fact that they slept most of the session itself is what makes them feel better. Sometimes I wonder if their endorphin levels are raised more from the fact that when the clients want me to talk to them I can sometimes make them laugh harder than they would at an Austin Powers movie (OK, that might be an exaggeration). As far as the manual work goes, I think we're continually trying to be little researchers in our own practices for the sake of our clients.

I don't know how successful I would be in using a different style, but I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter if you have them

Teach us.
See the way you have that article posted on about affective massage therapy? It's info like that that make us think (and by the way, I have some questions on it which you should throw up on a new discussion thread. Vlad might become active). Do more of that. Spend more time teaching us rather than challenging beliefs and I bet you'll get more people questioning why they belief some of the things they do. I bet you get a better reaction that way.
If you're going to reply with "Take a course, I couldn't be bothered teaching" - you have a point, but even a wee bit of teaching is always a good thing in my book.


Talking (or writing) of sleeping - I bet anyone that started reading this reply is having some ZZZzzzz's now!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Lisa on December 14, 2009 at 9:51pm

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Vlad said:

I'm no fan of religion, by the way, but that's another topic for another site, isn't it?
But this isn't actually religion, is it?
Actually, observing some of the threads and discussions on this and another site remind me a little of some of the tones of discussions on the creationism vs evolution sites. I know that might sound crazy, but it shows how deep the belief goes. I was trying to make the point that the belief is held so close, that it's nearly as deeply held as a religion.

Some of the undertones of the discussions saddens me in a way.
See, the way I see it is that the whole research surge is going to be like a big wave of change that can only bring the profession forward - it'll wash away uncertainty and raise levels of truth, knowledge, integrity and respectability in our profession. And everyone knows there's a lot of research to be done.
It's a bit disheartening when there's nearly like a mini-war going on.
Yep, it's sad. We should all be excited and wanting to learn and get involved, but I don't really see much evidence of excitement or enthusiasm on any of the sites. What I see the most is people shouting at each other (in bytestreams).

Some folks may find this shocking, but I disagree that beliefs need to be respected.
Well, see, if it runs deep, then that's where the problems come in (I think).
You like to be challenged, for sure. You probably love it when your students challenge you.
But you also have to remember the type of person you're challenging on this forum and their reactions. I think that most therapists are non-confrontational. It's not in our nature (at least, it's not in mine). But having said that I think that most of us are open to learning and we realize that our field is in a major evolutionary stage and pardon the reference to evolution again.

Lately, I've been thinking more about the difference between how therapists and patients think, versus how researchers think
Actually, I think you might be surprised at how therapists think. I see myself as a researcher for my own practice for my own clients all the time and I wouldn't be surprised if most therapists thought the same. I think most of us question what is going on more than you might think. Sometimes I wonder if all I do is make them sleep better and that it's recuperative sleep that is actually reducing the client's pain levels rather than the massage itself (we probably hear "I'm going to sleep well tonight" at least once during the day - is their improved sleep helping with their arthritis pain more than the actual massage?) Sometimes I wonder if the fact that they slept most of the session itself is what makes them feel better. Sometimes I wonder if their endorphin levels are raised more from the fact that when the clients want me to talk to them I can sometimes make them laugh harder than they would at an Austin Powers movie (OK, that might be an exaggeration). As far as the manual work goes, I think we're continually trying to be little researchers in our own practices for the sake of our clients.

I don't know how successful I would be in using a different style, but I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter if you have them

Teach us.
See the way you have that article posted on about affective massage therapy? It's info like that that make us think (and by the way, I have some questions on it which you should throw up on a new discussion thread. Vlad might become active). Do more of that. Spend more time teaching us rather than challenging beliefs and I bet you'll get more people questioning why they believe some of the things they do. I bet you get a better reaction that way. I'm sure you'll get people interested in your work.
If you're going to reply with "Take a course, I couldn't be bothered teaching" - you have a point, but even a wee bit of teaching is always a good thing in my book.


Talking (or writing) of sleeping - I bet anyone that started reading this reply is having some ZZZzzzz's now!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Stefanie Adams on December 14, 2009 at 10:15pm

I agree with teaching instead of challenging beliefs. That's a different strategy altogether. Teaching a scientific approach doesn't require one to address energy work at all. By its very nature it will instruct and influence those who are sitting on the fence.

Another point I forgot to mention is that the belief is much stronger from a biological/chemical perspective than rational thought. Neurologist Robert Burton writes, “feeling of knowing (rightness, correctness, certainty, conviction) should be thought of as one of our primary emotions."

After years of DEBATING I've almost come to the conclusion that they're more destructive than helpful. Yep, TEACHING is where it's at.

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Permalink Reply by Marilyn St.John on December 15, 2009 at 1:00pm

There might be a difference in perception of this realm if one enters into it being totally oblivious, as I did.

An individual came up behind me at a gathering thirty-five years ago, and put his hands on my shoulders for about five minutes--obviously with some sort of intention, but what the heck was he doing? I had no clue. Suddenly, I felt an overwhelming rush of what can only be described as "energy" and a sense of utter well-being...and the only thing I could think to do was say "thank you!" I didn't even have the presence of mind to ask what it was he did, since he moved on to another part of the room. Was that a "healing?" It sure felt like it on the receiving end.

I eventually discovered a class at St.John Hospital (MI) for something called Reiki. Turns out, it's what my friend did back in the 70's. Now that I know how to amplify and direct the energy myself, having experienced it in such a profound way at first glance, reminds me that there are many prople who still consider this modality to be a parlor game...just as there are those who are so precious about it as to call themselves "healers." I believe anybody with a quiet mind can learn this; recognition of the subtle seems to be key.

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Permalink Reply by Stefanie Adams on December 15, 2009 at 4:24pm

I entered the healing profession totally oblivious, as well. Yet my experiences led me to draw very different conclusions.

My background in fundamentalist Christianity taught that spiritual healing was a gift given to the first Christians as evidence of Jesus' power. Then it ceased when the Bible was written. I had no experience or knowledge of energy therapy beyond this and was excited to learn about it.

I have never witnessed one "miraculous" or "unexplainable" incident that can't be explained through simple, objective observation.

During my first aura class the instructor mentioned the word "apples" twice, and was unimpressed when the students saw red. When I asked for another demonstration with someone else because of the verbal cues, I was firmly corrected and put in my place. I thought the experience was very strange but pressed on.

During craniosacral training I couldn't feel the pulse and was told, "sometimes you have to fake it until you actually feel it". I was puzzled but faked it for a year, patiently waiting to recognize the subtleties, yet still couldn't feel a thing.

Then I realized that life for the most part is pretty boring, and energy work makes our profession much more interesting and exciting. People who want to believe it, will. And if it helps someone in the process, who am I to say it doesn't have value? I don't have to believe it, practice it, receive it, or respect it. But I don't see the point in debating it either.

Teaching a scientific view, however, is a very different story.

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Permalink Reply by Marilyn St.John on December 15, 2009 at 7:55pm

I also like the squirrel's viewpoint. While I form my own viewpoint about the scientific reasons for this supposed "energy flow" and the subsequent results I see, I'm the first to admit that I am ill-equipped to explain it. My personal observation has to do with fine vibrations (which I equate to sound vibrations) which compose every living thing. Perhaps the activity of "intention" causes vibrations to arise...which turn into atoms and generate what we call life. By the power of nature's affinity, the atoms group to form a living entity. As the breath manifests through the form, the body becomes conscious. Since the energy flow through my hand seems to speed things up when I am able to amplify it, there might be a connection.

If I have learned nothing else in my 60 years, it's that there is nothing as reliable as my own reality, and I'm quite lucid. I can't say that I am fan of organized religion, I think the necessity of a spiritual-creative component in this work remains. A friend of mine said, "spiritual literacy is the ability to read the signs within the texts of our own experiences. Whether viewed as a gift from God or a skill to be cultivated, this facility enables us to discern and decipher a world full of meaning."

So, I am just trying to connect the dots like so many others, and I certainly welcome the input of anyone with actual scientific data. Have we discovered who are the acknowledged experts in this field yet?

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Permalink Reply by Bert Davich on December 15, 2009 at 11:32pm

Lisa, By the Gods of Energy, you ARE entertaining!

Lisa said:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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Permalink Reply by Bert Davich on December 15, 2009 at 11:45pm

Hello again Chris,
This looks to be a lively discussion judging by some of the early posts. I will lurk for a while then chime in after something engaging is presented and hope to learn something from your erudite elucidations which I do enjoy! I think you may find that the actual practice of body work is much higher vs energy work than you have indicated you are starting to feel in other posts. The body workers are often too busy (or tired) to spend time blogging. I am likely spending too much time here myself.

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Permalink Reply by Robin Byler Thomas on December 16, 2009 at 1:03am

Yea, me too Bert; interesting observations though. I'm skeptical about most new things, believe it or not Christopher, but will try them on, let them marinate for a while and see what happens. When learning Cranial Sacral for the first time in school it made no sense to me and reflexology seemed too much a routine. I must have retained a few things, however, because a few years later I saw a client need and retook both beginning levels; twice. I found elements of the training useful to my practice. I must admit a tendancy towards the mechanical because I find CS most useful for its gentle traction of the spine and decompression of the cranial bones, and use reflex points on the feet when appropriate, rather than a whole reflexology session.

Thai massage training has come in very useful for loosening muscles of the feet and leg; but I integrate it into a session rather than do a whole floor routine. There's also a reverance, taught with this modality, that reminds you as a therapist to slow down and tune into the client and their needs; similiar to what I've learned from TCM and Ayurveda instruction. I've never taken these eastern methods without my western skeptical filter. I also felt it wasn't possible to learn something passed down and practised for generations in one weekend workshop; or 10. So, I don't claim to be a practitioner of these methods; I do let them help me fine tune my work.

I've received acupunture, Reiki, Shiatsu, and Chi Gong and found them very relaxing, and subtly effective for pain issues and increasing my immunity. I don't like forceful manipulation but will refer to someone reputable when my clients might benefit from chiropractic work. All of these practitioners are well trained, skeptical people themselves.

I still prefer massage therapy to any other bodywork.

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