Skeptical about Energy Work

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Permalink Reply by Vlad on December 17, 2009 at 10:34pm

Um...I don't think I said that, but hey, sounds good to me!

I have a question about different types of energy work that I'm just throwing into this thread since it might be an interesting addition. And remember that this question comes from someone totally ignorant in it. Is there a common denominator theory between multiple forms of energy work? I remember talking once to a very experienced teacher who taught reiki and has taken classes in other energy modalities (I didn't take their energy class, but I had other classes from them - she's a great teacher) who said that with the energy work there is a big overlap. She described it as being at the top level and she said that craniosacral, reiki and even myofascial release had this overlap. I think she mentioned another one, but I can't remember what it was.
Anyone have an opinion on that?

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Permalink Reply by Lisa on December 17, 2009 at 10:42pm

omg you're right. that's what i get for copying and pasting.

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Permalink Reply by Emmanuel Bistas on December 18, 2009 at 6:33am

Marilyn,

The book "The Field: The quest for the secret force of the universe" by Lynn McTaggard has a great deal of references to scientific papers and other sources. It is written by a journalist, so it is not as hard to follow as the actual sources that it cites.

It was interesting to me to read, especially in light of the interest on fascia, as the "field" that is discusses is like a universal connective tissue. Super cool stuff AND, at least in theory, it could help us produce a perpetual motion machine for Christopher :)

Christopher, we love you, love us back!

Happy holidays everyone!

Emmanuel



Marilyn St.John said:

I really liked Emmanuel's comments, especially the reference to atomic particles. It has been my feeling for years that somehow particle physics should be looked at through this lens. The only resource I can think of right now are the folks at the Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Accelerator lab -- but my atom smasher acquaintances haven't looked from a "healing" perspective, at least nothing is published that I can find. If anybody has seen a physics offering, I'd love to know about it.

.

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Permalink Reply by Marilyn St.John on December 18, 2009 at 8:56am

Emmanuel,
I have read The Field a couple of times and totally agree, it has been an excellent resource in my humble opinion. I also follow Lynne McTaggart's Intention Experiment and am familiar with her work. Another researcher to look at is Valerie Hunt, and maybe Joan Boryshenko. I did mention these exact resources & bibliographies early-on (maybe on another thread) but nobody voiced any interest so I assumed that people researching this might just be more interested in reading more current independent studies.

Bert, thank you so much for bringing up the therapist/client relationship issue...to my way of thinking, that would be the dynamic to study! Good stuff.

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Permalink Reply by Kim Goral on December 18, 2009 at 11:08am

RP in CO-"Do you know anyone who has undergone acupuncture treatment? Was it effective for them?"

I know this wasn't directed at me just just thought I'd give my 1 and only personal experience recieving acupunture- it was terrible. I hated every minute of it (all 15 that I could force myself to tolerate before making her pull out the needles lol) and the only difference I felt after was high anxiety.

Now granted, I will freely admit that I was not intending to "treat" any problems, it was more of a networking and curiosity thing (the acupuncturist and I were trading work and agreed to help promote each others' businesses, and I had always heard about it but never tried it so I wanted to see what it was like). And, I hate needles. HATE needles. But I wanted to try it myself since everyone told me I would love it. ;) So, maybe my opinion doesn't count given at how biased it was...and my bias was not based on anything related to its efficacy. Just thought I'd share my story!

I guess while I'm sharing stories, since other people have shared their experiences with energy work I will share mine. First, I am not a trained energy worker, nor do I desire to be. However, For the first few years after school I didn't really have a bias against it, it just wasn't my "thing". But, I have received many different types from different people- Reiki, Polarity, Shiatsu, CST, Zero Balancing (granted the ZB was just a 10 minute experience at an expo). The only thing I have ever felt from any of those is relaxation, but no more so than lying on a soft, warm table in a dimly lit room with quiet music playing would have done on its own. And each experience was with a very open mind, and even hope/belief that I would feel something. But I didn't. So, that is my own personal experience with it, since other people are sharing theirs.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on December 18, 2009 at 11:37am

RP in CO-"Do you know anyone who has undergone acupuncture treatment? Was it effective for them?"

I also hate needles, but after an acupuncturist did a demonstration at our massage school, I went to see him. After more than 20 years of "guarding" my lower back and knee pain, I was willing to try just about anything. One visit and I have been pain free for six years now. It wasn't pleasant, but versus what I had been living with, I would have been glad to go through it daily.

He was trained at Bejing Hospital and some of the stories he relayed about using acupuncture during operations instead of anesthesiology were amazing. He really highlighted the difference in healing times, after surgery.

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Permalink Reply by Laura Allen on December 18, 2009 at 12:55pm

I get acupuncture once or twice a month. I have six deteriorating discs in my thoracic area, and I get so inflamed, I do not need to get a massage. I can melt an ice pack in ten minutes. As soon as the first needle goes in, I can feel the heat start leaving.

I'll make it clear that it is not doing anything about the deterioration, and it would be foolish to expect it to. But for relieving pain and inflammation, it's great, and it keeps me off drugs. I choose not to take any anti-inflammatory drugs.

Before any naysayers chime in, I really don't give a flip if it's a placebo effect or any other kind of effect. It brings me relief, and that's my only concern.

RP in CO said:

You seem to be saying that when energy work is effective it is more of a psychological effect. Is this a correct understanding of what you are saying? Would you say that the psychological phenomenon that is occurring in that case is or is not influenced by the bodyworker?

When an energy worker is "working with energy", what is your assessment of what they think they are doing? I ask to know from what perspective you are coming, but also because I am confused by this discussion because of the many, many types of energy work.

Actually, I don't think the question I asked regarding your skepticism requires a long answer. It is actually a very simple question: exactly what is it that you - or any of the other skeptics - are skeptical about? Regardless of the potential complexity of the reasoning behind your answer, the answer itself can be expressed simply, and I believe it is an essential answer for a discussion to move anywhere.

Western and traditional Eastern medical theories are based on completely different philosophies. There is a lot of difference between them. Much of traditional eastern medicinal practice is not even considered "medical" (in the way we define it today in our culture), but more about different elements of lifestlye. While Western medicine is based on dissection and study of parts, traditional Eastern medicine is based on belief systems. Both Traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda are all about balance of different systems. I don't consider either to be better or more correct - they each have their place - but they are most certainly different.

It is interesting that you say there are only two kinds of medicine, the kind that works and the kind that doesn't. I would love to get back to that after you answer some of these questions. Do you know anyone who has undergone acupuncture treatment? Was it effective for them?

Christopher A. Moyer said:

Hi RP

I am curious, Christopher, have you ever received work from an energy worker? If so, what type of work did they do?

Yes. Very briefly, as I think I described this in detail in another recent thread, I received weekly massage for an extended period from a person trained in Touch for Health. I went to this person because I thought she was a very good massage therapist, and I didn't even know the tenets of TfH until later, though I was aware of the fact that TfH must have had its own idiosyncratic theories because I noticed the had anatomical charts with unfamiliar names on it (e.g., triple warmer). At the end of her sessions she would do some very gentle strokes on the head and face, which I found to be very, very relaxing; I never asked her at the time, but I wonder now if she believed she was doing energy work by means of those strokes.

I also had a session from a therapist who informed me that she would conclude by performing a few minutes of reiki. I endured it because I didn't want to say anything, but I was irritated because I'd have preferred to have massage during those two or three minutes! At the same time I understood that she meant well and was 'giving' me something to be nice and generous; in other words, I saw it as a nice gesture.

Do you include all forms in your skepticism, or is it certain ones?

I am skeptical of all forms of energy work that I have encountered.

What exactly is it that you are skeptical about, that there is something more to us than our physical structures, or that we can manipulate it, or that it makes a difference in healing, or something else?

This question asks a lot and could lead to a very long answer. For example, the idea that 'there is more to us than our physical structures' could be interpreted in more than one way. I'll skip that for now (but feel free to ask me a more specific follow up and I'll try to address it) and simply say that my extreme skepticism of energy work comes from 1) a familiarity with physics that leads me to see the tenets of energy work as astronomically remote, combined with 2) a knowledge of several well-understood psychological phenomena that could explain the experiences energy workers and some of their recipients report.

I realize that I have not spelled either 1 or 2 out very well at all in this answer or previous ones. I'm not trying to be coy; rather, I have begun to realize that it will be better to explain these more fully in a publication. I am thinking seriously about writing such a paper and am even talking with a colleague about writing it jointly; when completed, I/we will post it here, of course. This discussion has been instrumental in motivating me/us to consider this, and has helped us recognize the need for it.

I think research is a powerful way for us to explore our curiosity, but that it is a mistake to think that it stands alone. Even the hardest sciences have constantly shifting - sometimes mutually exclusive - theories being debated.

But there are also theories that no one is debating, because they are very well settled. No one is debating the laws of thermodynamics, for example; every person with a working knowledge of physics agrees that they are so well demonstrated and understood that they can be relied on to describe nature. If the tenets of energy work defy what we know about thermodynamics... Let's just say I know which side I'm betting on.

After all, the research results are only as good as the research questions asked and the research designs conceived. Coming from a place of not knowing the answers in the first place, those research questions and designs are inherently lacking (not for satisfying our curiosity or for gaining knowledge but for creating ultimate definitions). If we support our entire profession on research alone we will exclude aspects that are effective and powerful but about which we don't even know how to ask the appropriate questions yet. Western medicine is based solely in research results,

That's not actually true. There is much in modern medicine that is done out of tradition. In addition, I find the Western/Eastern distinction to be not very useful, and even a kind of false dichotomy. I also find the CAM label to be pretty useless.

There are really only two kinds of medicine. There is medicine that works, and medicine that doesn't. (I wish I could say I made that up, but I didn't.)

yet that research is constantly sending us different, sometimes conflicting, messages because of either the questions we ask or the way we interpret the results.

To restate the point about theories - yes, sure, there is active debate in science. But the debate is generally taking place at the edges of our knowledge, which are supported by findings on which science now agrees. No one is debating phlogiston theory today, or if they are, they simply don't know what they are talking about, because the associated phenomena are now much better understood. Some of the debates concerning energy work are, in my scientific opinion, like a modern-day debate about phlogiston theory.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on December 18, 2009 at 2:11pm

I think this is probably true with most of these modalities and why so much of this vital information may have already been eliminated by folks.

I have read about and talked with many therapists that have returned time and time again, to the East, in an effort to get more genuine philosophy and instruction.


Bert Davich said:

Yeah Mike,
We hit on this in the BOK discussion.

There is a huge difference between an acupuncturist trained in China who had 10 years of education and apprenticeship and a Chiropractor who takes a 6 to 12 month course here in the US. You have already heard this, but for the rest following, China has been having difficulty getting top candidates for traditional Chinese medicine because it takes so long to master. They can finish and be in practicing & making money in 1/2 the time when they go to a western medicine school.

China has 3 schools of medicine, Western Medicine, Traditional Chinese Medicine, and a combination of the 2. It is one of their grand experiments which I'm pretty sure continues today.

I did receive acupuncture from a Japanese trained acupuncturist, but he did a 10 year apprenticeship and had another 10 or more years in practice. It was not unpleasant and I felt relaxed afterward.

It will be a cold day at the equator when I allow someone with US short time training stick needles in me!

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Permalink Reply by Robin Byler Thomas on December 18, 2009 at 2:47pm

I have had several sessions with acupuncture and never felt a single needle; interesting. I'm also not very suggestable for what ever that's worth. Kim, that would make for an interesting study; people's perceptions of acupuncture and how it affects outcome.

What I've noticed with acupuncture, both myself and with client experiences, is its value for building immunity, reducing inflamation (as Laura mentioned), and balancing hormones.

Christopher actually has done research on the MT/client relationship; please share dude, when you get a chance.

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Permalink Reply by Laura Allen on December 18, 2009 at 3:50pm

The acupuncturist in my office has a Master's of Oriental Medicine, about 4000 hours of school and an internship. The chiropractors who wish to do acupuncture here (NC) have only two levels of exams, one for when they have had 100 hours of training and the other when they have had 250. The chiropractor who works in my clinic leaves that to the acupuncturist.

My acupuncturist has a butterfly touch, and usually the only needle I feel at all is the first one. I get a little jolt out of that one and normally don't feel the rest.

Bert Davich said:

Yeah Mike,
We hit on this in the BOK discussion.

There is a huge difference between an acupuncturist trained in China who had 10 years of education and apprenticeship and a Chiropractor who takes a 6 to 12 month course here in the US. You have already heard this, but for the rest following, China has been having difficulty getting top candidates for traditional Chinese medicine because it takes so long to master. They can finish and be in practicing & making money in 1/2 the time when they go to a western medicine school.

China has 3 schools of medicine, Western Medicine, Traditional Chinese Medicine, and a combination of the 2. It is one of their grand experiments which I'm pretty sure continues today.

I did receive acupuncture from a Japanese trained acupuncturist, but he did a 10 year apprenticeship and had another 10 or more years in practice. It was not unpleasant and I felt relaxed afterward.

It will be a cold day at the equator when I allow someone with US short time training stick needles in me!

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Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on December 18, 2009 at 4:20pm

The reason mine was a little discomforting and as a suggestion to anyone that goes through this procedure, I'll explain. Doc felt the muscles in my lower back were knotted, after years of athletic play, and felt like the course of years made the muscle's memory stay in that mode. Heat would only temporarily relax the muscle a little and the pain caused from knotting. After heat application, the muscle memory would draw it again and the pain returned.

After placing initial needles that he said would release endorphins, he placed two needles deep into muscles in my lower back. There was little to no discomfort. He then hooked alligator clips to them and ran a mild current into the needles causing those internal muscles to spasm. He then put a "cayenne pepper gel" on my lower back around the needles and put a heat lamp on top of that. I sweated pretty good. It was a very mild spasm and he worked with me to get it where I was okay with the speed. I laid there for about 20 minutes. And here is the lesson. If you find yourself there, lay still. I tried to raise up at one point. Don't do that. That's all I can say.



Laura Allen said:

The acupuncturist in my office has a Master's of Oriental Medicine, about 4000 hours of school and an internship. The chiropractors who wish to do acupuncture here (NC) have only two levels of exams, one for when they have had 100 hours of training and the other when they have had 250. The chiropractor who works in my clinic leaves that to the acupuncturist.

My acupuncturist has a butterfly touch, and usually the only needle I feel at all is the first one. I get a little jolt out of that one and normally don't feel the rest.

Bert Davich said:

Yeah Mike,
We hit on this in the BOK discussion.

There is a huge difference between an acupuncturist trained in China who had 10 years of education and apprenticeship and a Chiropractor who takes a 6 to 12 month course here in the US. You have already heard this, but for the rest following, China has been having difficulty getting top candidates for traditional Chinese medicine because it takes so long to master. They can finish and be in practicing & making money in 1/2 the time when they go to a western medicine school.

China has 3 schools of medicine, Western Medicine, Traditional Chinese Medicine, and a combination of the 2. It is one of their grand experiments which I'm pretty sure continues today.

I did receive acupuncture from a Japanese trained acupuncturist, but he did a 10 year apprenticeship and had another 10 or more years in practice. It was not unpleasant and I felt relaxed afterward.

It will be a cold day at the equator when I allow someone with US short time training stick needles in me!

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Permalink Reply by Laura Allen on December 18, 2009 at 5:09pm

No joke. I think it's awful.

Bert Davich said:

Wow Laura,
100 to 250 hours? That's not even 6 months of training. I am surprised considering the potential for harm with acupuncture is greater than massage therapy.

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