Follow up from first phone call

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on October 4, 2010 at 11:34am

Hi Julie,

You are free to invite, whoever to the research conference. But I'm sure they have already heard about our beginning efforts. It will be slow for a few years, but as more and more therapists enter the research aspects of the field, we will grow also. We won't give up.

I disagree that any one source should be "The" source for anything. That is called a monopoly and always leads to control and price gouging. Just like before ABMP came along, AMTA ruled with an iron fist. MTR is controlled by whoever the Executive Director of AMTA is, did you know that? Did you know, that it IS therapists paying for research. A part of their annual convention entry fees goes to MTF every year. MTF can not do it all and if they want more money and people involved they are going to have to open their views somewhat. This "EBP or nothing approach" is going to hurt them.

I believe there should more research going on than just what Christopher Moyer determines should be. He has already determined certain modalities should not be researched at all. He will provide no research to prove why and is very caustic in dealing with therapists that disagree with him. It took me months to get the 10 modalities, out of him that he doesn't want studied.

Just because you've never done something, doesn't mean you shouldn't! I welcome the challenge. Remember, many men built the Titantic and one built the Arc! Don't avoid things because they are new.

We will be having our conference. We are involving many scientists and researchers. Ruth Werner is involved. She is giving the keynote and a class on Research Literacy. Nancy Porambo is doing Fibromyalgia. Diana Thompson, Whitney Lowe, Leon Chaitow and Leslie Young from the Foundation will all be coming in the Hall of Fame.Then your back classes take place during regular Festival. And three of them at that Lamb, Benjamin and Waslaski cover the back in some great classes. Michael Hamm is being planned for future Festivals.

Never except just one outcome/perspective. MT's do need to learn a lot about all this research. That happens at meetings and conferences. But saying that it's unethical for therapists not to know research; or the only things that should be studied are what Moyer says, is ridiculous and you can put it in print a billion times, you'll never get therapists to conform. Heck, doctors have no mandatory continuing education... and it's unethical for us? Good luck with that.

We are talking about this conference with the Advisory Board. Will it be perfect... kinda doubt it. Will it be a start? Yes, and that's what we need to do... get started. The Festival started with 1 and it's grown. We will do the same here. You only fail when you quit trying. We will not stop trying.

Permalink Reply by Darcy Neibaur on October 4, 2010 at 12:07pm

So agree Micheal. I was at the first Festival and saw the beginnings and how it has grown. Now I will be at the first Research Conference with the Festival and will see these beginnings and growth as well. Glad i am apart of this history making event. Starting out small and going slow growing steadily is a success.

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on October 4, 2010 at 4:21pm

I just would rather see more classes on research literacy and not on the research itself because it is meaningless to most Massage therapists if they don't understand it. Should I send you the info from the one I attended last year which was way over my head and I have a degree in Science before Massage School.
I am just telling you that of the researchers I know who are making it understandable and you might want to get them involved in teaching people how to decipher and understand it. It won't do anyone any good other wise.

What do you mean
"MTR is controlled by whoever the Executive Director of AMTA is, did you know that?"

What do they have to do with anything?

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on October 4, 2010 at 5:34pm

I am inviting people here to help you figure out what to do- I thought that this group was about that but there also seems to be a lot of info that I am missing. The people who are involved in research and are seeing what is needed would be a good place to start. You said on the phone call you didn't want to ask Ruth what she thought was needed and I think she is one to talk to. Yes she is teaching a class for teachers or so it sounds like on research literacy -how about one for the rest of us.

Yes I think going small is good too and focusing on research literacy in my opinion. That's were it could start because just getting hit with eons of data and listening to I did this massage and the person felt better which is what the conference was about was meaningless. It is also much more than research. It is about creating an evidence based practice in which research is only one small part. The other is from the mt experiences with clients and a few other things.

I am not saying don't put on workshops about research and how to apply them in practice. Do something different than was done in Seattle and make it applicable to mt getting clients.

I am not sure what the heck you are talking about in this statement:

"But saying that it's unethical for therapists not to know research; or the only things that should be studied are what Moyer says, is ridiculous and you can put it in print a billion times, you'll never get therapists to conform. Heck, doctors have no mandatory continuing education... and it's unethical for us? Good luck with that."

I didn't say anything about it being unethical for mt to know research or take CE and that only Moyer should be studied so not sure what you are referring to.

Julie

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on October 4, 2010 at 7:26pm

The Executive Director of AMTA is the final say on budget at the Foundation. That is my understanding.
A lot of this will be over some heads but it will take repetition and making it interesting to keep their attention. We'll try it this way and see where to improve from here. Remember the key is to "bridge the gap" between researcher and therapist. Can't do that too good if they don't get together. I think we'll start here and see if this works.
Julie Onofrio said:

I just would rather see more classes on research literacy and not on the research itself because it is meaningless to most Massage therapists if they don't understand it. Should I send you the info from the one I attended last year which was way over my head and I have a degree in Science before Massage School.
I am just telling you that of the researchers I know who are making it understandable and you might want to get them involved in teaching people how to decipher and understand it. It won't do anyone any good other wise.

What do you mean
"MTR is controlled by whoever the Executive Director of AMTA is, did you know that?"

What do they have to do with anything?

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on October 4, 2010 at 7:36pm

Hi Julie,

Different is what I am trying to be. That's why I said we did not need to bother Ruth about how things are done with other conventions and conferences. We will start small. We will make it fun.

Ruth is involved. She is giving the Research Keynote and Literacy class and you can attend.

Julie Onofrio said:

I am inviting people here to help you figure out what to do- I thought that this group was about that but there also seems to be a lot of info that I am missing. The people who are involved in research and are seeing what is needed would be a good place to start. You said on the phone call you didn't want to ask Ruth what she thought was needed and I think she is one to talk to. Yes she is teaching a class for teachers or so it sounds like on research literacy -how about one for the rest of us.

Yes I think going small is good too and focusing on research literacy in my opinion. That's were it could start because just getting hit with eons of data and listening to I did this massage and the person felt better which is what the conference was about was meaningless. It is also much more than research. It is about creating an evidence based practice in which research is only one small part. The other is from the mt experiences with clients and a few other things.

I am not saying don't put on workshops about research and how to apply them in practice. Do something different than was done in Seattle and make it applicable to mt getting clients.

I am not sure what the heck you are talking about in this statement:

"But saying that it's unethical for therapists not to know research; or the only things that should be studied are what Moyer says, is ridiculous and you can put it in print a billion times, you'll never get therapists to conform. Heck, doctors have no mandatory continuing education... and it's unethical for us? Good luck with that."

I didn't say anything about it being unethical for mt to know research or take CE and that only Moyer should be studied so not sure what you are referring to.

Julie

Permalink Reply by Kim Goral on October 4, 2010 at 8:01pm

Hi Julie,

Thanks for the invite. I agree with you that research literacy classes are important and would be more beneficial to those with little research knowledge than the more technical presentations given in Seattle (though those were quite fascinating!). Without spreading the knowledge of research literacy, research is limited in effect to many therapists. Especially when it comes to discriminating between high quality and poor quality research...but that's a topic for another day ;)

Mike, I think it's awesome that you want to have a research themed WMF. I have been watching your efforts with this conference since last winter with interest, hoping you would fully seize the opportunity to back up your research theme with research classes. However, offering 2 research classes (out of how many classes?? Lots..) does not a research conference make. You mentioned a few times, here and elsewhere, that you are inviting a bunch of research-related people to be inducted into your hall of fame. I think that's great- but what does it mean? Will they give a quick acceptance speech, or are they teaching a class, or..? And for the record, I am not belittling the classes that Ruth and Nancy will be teaching. I love Ruth; I think she is an amazing educator and speaker. I do not know Nancy, and therefor cannot comment on her. I'm just saying, there should be more research classes if it is a research conference.

Julie has asked me a couple of times now to join this group and help out and share ideas. Though I would normally be eager to, I have thus far been reluctant to do so, because I don't think you really want a research conference. If you did, you would have taken our suggestions many months ago about who the leaders in this field are, and be booking them to speak at and teach at the conference. And, going only off of the postings here and from your WMF website, you have not done that. I think you want the illusion of a research conference, but without any of the actual research and controversy that can come with it.

I know how popular your Festival is, and I really do think its great to bring so many people together for this event. But if you are truly aiming for a research conference, as opposed to a conference with a couple of research classes, you need people who actually do/write/teach about research at your event teaching classes, and more than just 2. Who are these people? In no particular order..

Tracy Walton
Christopher Moyer
Bodhi Haraldsson
Shay Beider
Karen Boulanger
Janet Kahn
Cynthia Piltch
Ravensara Travillian
Martha Menard
Glenn Hymel
Michael Hamm
Dan Cherkin
Leon Chaitow (I know he's in your HoF, but he needs to be teaching too!)
Whitney Lower (same as above)
Angela Palmier
Chris Alvarado

My apologies if I'm missing any of the other greats...

THAT would be a research conference! (Oh wait, that happened in Seattle in May...put together by that monopoly, I think...)


As an aside, I feel the need to address a couple of your comments.

"This "EBP or nothing approach" is going to hurt them."

Forgive me, but isn't the point of doing research learning about what "works" and what doesn't? (Granted, I realize that is an great oversimplification). What is the point of doing research to discover method A is more effective than method B if we are not going to learn from it and base our practice off of what has been found to be most effective??

"I believe there should more research going on than just what Christopher Moyer determines should be. He has already determined certain modalities should not be researched at all. "

Chris Moyer decides on what research that he alone will do; his opinion does not have any bearing on research anyone else does. I'm not sure why you think he or any other researcher out there has this powerful control over the work that other researchers do; it doesn't work that way.

Back on track, I truly, honestly would be happy to help out in any way I can with your WMF (although, I have a feeling that by now you would prefer I stay as far away from it as possible..). Help people learn about research. It will be a great thing. I promise. :)

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on October 4, 2010 at 8:26pm

Hi Kim,

The research conference is separate of Festival. You may not see it as a research conference, as you know it, but most things I do are different and people seem to like them.

The research conference is aimed at introducing research to massage therapists. You are right. Those are the same names I have seen for years about research. I want to see that list grow 10 fold. It begins, not with a repeat of what happened in Seattle, even Julie was overwhelmed, but with a simple beginning. And that is what we are doing. Another real full blown conference with people retaining little that do not already have research 101... doesn't work. I don't want to create another MTRF. I want to get therapists and researchers together. Let's give this a shot. Would love all the ideas we can get. Message on the way about the next conference call.

About the folks listed, they would just "overwhelm" everyone, so we'll save them for the future, when therapists are ready.



Kim Goral said:

Hi Julie,

Thanks for the invite. I agree with you that research literacy classes are important and would be more beneficial to those with little research knowledge than the more technical presentations given in Seattle (though those were quite fascinating!). Without spreading the knowledge of research literacy, research is limited in effect to many therapists. Especially when it comes to discriminating between high quality and poor quality research...but that's a topic for another day ;)

Mike, I think it's awesome that you want to have a research themed WMF. I have been watching your efforts with this conference since last winter with interest, hoping you would fully seize the opportunity to back up your research theme with research classes. However, offering 2 research classes (out of how many classes?? Lots..) does not a research conference make. You mentioned a few times, here and elsewhere, that you are inviting a bunch of research-related people to be inducted into your hall of fame. I think that's great- but what does it mean? Will they give a quick acceptance speech, or are they teaching a class, or..? And for the record, I am not belittling the classes that Ruth and Nancy will be teaching. I love Ruth; I think she is an amazing educator and speaker. I do not know Nancy, and therefor cannot comment on her. I'm just saying, there should be more research classes if it is a research conference.

Julie has asked me a couple of times now to join this group and help out and share ideas. Though I would normally be eager to, I have thus far been reluctant to do so, because I don't think you really want a research conference. If you did, you would have taken our suggestions many months ago about who the leaders in this field are, and be booking them to speak at and teach at the conference. And, going only off of the postings here and from your WMF website, you have not done that. I think you want the illusion of a research conference, but without any of the actual research and controversy that can come with it.

I know how popular your Festival is, and I really do think its great to bring so many people together for this event. But if you are truly aiming for a research conference, as opposed to a conference with a couple of research classes, you need people who actually do/write/teach about research at your event teaching classes, and more than just 2. Who are these people? In no particular order..

Tracy Walton
Christopher Moyer
Bodhi Haraldsson
Shay Beider
Karen Boulanger
Janet Kahn
Cynthia Piltch
Ravensara Travillian
Martha Menard
Glenn Hymel
Michael Hamm
Dan Cherkin
Leon Chaitow (I know he's in your HoF, but he needs to be teaching too!)
Whitney Lower (same as above)
Angela Palmier
Chris Alvarado

My apologies if I'm missing any of the other greats...

THAT would be a research conference! (Oh wait, that happened in Seattle in May...put together by that monopoly, I think...)


As an aside, I feel the need to address a couple of your comments.

"This "EBP or nothing approach" is going to hurt them."

Forgive me, but isn't the point of doing research learning about what "works" and what doesn't? (Granted, I realize that is an great oversimplification). What is the point of doing research to discover method A is more effective than method B if we are not going to learn from it and base our practice off of what has been found to be most effective??

"I believe there should more research going on than just what Christopher Moyer determines should be. He has already determined certain modalities should not be researched at all. "

Chris Moyer decides on what research that he alone will do; his opinion does not have any bearing on research anyone else does. I'm not sure why you think he or any other researcher out there has this powerful control over the work that other researchers do; it doesn't work that way.

Back on track, I truly, honestly would be happy to help out in any way I can with your WMF (although, I have a feeling that by now you would prefer I stay as far away from it as possible..). Help people learn about research. It will be a great thing. I promise. :)

Permalink Reply by Kim Goral on October 4, 2010 at 8:41pm

"The research conference is separate of Festival. You may not see it as a research conference, as you know it, but most things I do are different and people seem to like them.

The research conference is aimed at introducing research to massage therapists. You are right. Those are the same names I have seen for years about research. I want to see that list grow 10 fold. It begins, not with a repeat of what happened in Seattle, even Julie was overwhelmed, but with a simple beginning. And that is what we are doing. Another real full blown conference with people retaining little that do not already have research 101... doesn't work. I don't want to create another MTRF. I want to get therapists and researchers together. Let's give this a shot. Would love all the ideas we can get. Message on the way about the next conference call.

About the folks listed, they would just "overwhelm" everyone, so we'll save them for the future, when therapists are ready."

Hi Mike

Thanks for the clarification of the goals of the conference. However, I disagree that the people I listed would overwhelm everyone; after all, several of them have written books about research literacy geared towards those with little or no research knowledge and also teach research literacy classes. Maybe if you had all of them and they were presenting research projects/papers, that I would agree would be overwhelming. But I think you should reconsider talking to a few of them about teaching some basic courses that will help therapists understand "research 101". If it's ok with you for me to sit in on the call on Friday, maybe we can discuss this further then. I think it will be easier via that method than over a message board where meanings can get lost in translation.

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on October 4, 2010 at 11:52pm

Glad to have you join in. I just want to start slow and build. Kinda like Festival. You give them too many choices and they want them all. We will go slow this year and build from there!

Kim Goral said:

"The research conference is separate of Festival. You may not see it as a research conference, as you know it, but most things I do are different and people seem to like them.

The research conference is aimed at introducing research to massage therapists. You are right. Those are the same names I have seen for years about research. I want to see that list grow 10 fold. It begins, not with a repeat of what happened in Seattle, even Julie was overwhelmed, but with a simple beginning. And that is what we are doing. Another real full blown conference with people retaining little that do not already have research 101... doesn't work. I don't want to create another MTRF. I want to get therapists and researchers together. Let's give this a shot. Would love all the ideas we can get. Message on the way about the next conference call.

About the folks listed, they would just "overwhelm" everyone, so we'll save them for the future, when therapists are ready."

Hi Mike

Thanks for the clarification of the goals of the conference. However, I disagree that the people I listed would overwhelm everyone; after all, several of them have written books about research literacy geared towards those with little or no research knowledge and also teach research literacy classes. Maybe if you had all of them and they were presenting research projects/papers, that I would agree would be overwhelming. But I think you should reconsider talking to a few of them about teaching some basic courses that will help therapists understand "research 101". If it's ok with you for me to sit in on the call on Friday, maybe we can discuss this further then. I think it will be easier via that method than over a message board where meanings can get lost in translation.