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Stop the Insanity!

I hope this gets everyone's attention, and I don't give a rip if anyone replies or not. I am posting this separately from the previous discussions on here that have deteriorated into the most vile insulting and mudslinging bunch of crap I have ever seen in my life.

 

It is distressing to me that massage therapists, researchers in the field, and anyone else associated with our profession in any way stoop to this kind of behavior. Not only is it not a productive discussion, it is starting to sound like a bunch of politicians on tv with their insulting of each other's credentials, standards, and abilities.

 

I am not interested in shame and blame, so who started it and who said what is irrelevant. I urge you all to remember that we are ALL in this profession because we have a desire to help people through the awesome power of touch, and that is what it is about.

 

We don't have to agree. We can all agree to disagree. The personal attacks, the character attacks, the arguing over which country does it better, is ridiculous, petty, and childish. This is not the first time this has happened. It is the main reason I avoid this site most of the time.

 

I am no better, or no worse than anyone else, and everybody is entitled to an opinion. That's what forums are meant for, so that people with differing opinions have a place to discuss those, but so much of what has gone on here is not a civil discussion. When I see people that I know to be hard-working, caring people, and people that I know to be brilliant minds and hard-working as well get into these mudslinging insulting arguments on here, I personally find that to be a bad reflection of what we are supposed to be about.

 

I don't have to be bad in order for you to be good. You don't have to be a failure just so someone else can be a success. One country who does things differently is not better or worse, they are just different. People get caught up in national pride, and that's okay, but it does not have to deteriorate into what some of these discussions have deteriorated into. Someone makes a comment, someone takes it the wrong way, or out of context, and it just goes downhill from there.

 

When you're writing like this, you can't hear people's tone of voice, you can't see their body language, and what might be civil if we were all in a room together comes off as a bunch of superior b*******, and one's just as guilty as the other. When anyone has anything intelligent to say, someone else seizes upon that and uses it as an excuse for the next round of arguing.

 

I wish everyone of you peace and prosperity, regardless of where you are from, what you do, or how you do it. We are all equal by virtue of the fact that we are all human and it's too bad that people are fighting like a pack of junkyard dogs instead of having a civil disagreement. I can't participate in it and I won't.

 

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Permalink Reply by Emmanuel Bistas on February 21, 2011 at 4:17pm

Correct, but I would like to add one last last thing.  For discussions to be taken seriously and for parties to not get defensive,  we all need to be able to trust each other.  

 

Posting a public comment "So, will you take up that invitation to visit the World Massage Festival? ;-)  Mike Hinkle never did answer Susan Chapelle's question of whether there was going to be a ferris wheel at the festival!" after all this messy discussion does not create a climate of cooperation or trust, is that right Matthew?  

 

I want to be optimistic, but I am envisioning more of the same. Yuck!

 



Matthew Stewart said:
I agree Ravensara. If people can't ask questions and discuss the issues without the involved parties getting defensive then we risk a BCA v. Singh scenario, and look how much damage that has, and still is, doing to the chiropractic profession in the UK.

I guess what I'm saying is this: Keep accusing those of us who simply ask questions and explore the evidence of "harming" massage, and you are guaranteeing there will be a divorce. As long as we can talk to each other civilly, there's a possibility we can eventually figure things out; demonize us, and that chance evaporates.

Permalink Reply by Christopher A. Moyer on February 21, 2011 at 4:51pm

I see your point here Emmanuel, and I tend to agree with it. 

 

Having said that, I wish to note that the trust you mention must coexist with the tolerance I mentioned previously, when I made the point that civility is not much good without integrity, logic, and tolerance.  I believe all of these things have been missing, to various degrees, from many of the discussions that have taken place.

 

Generally, no one likes to be made fun of.  But, for better or worse, it's something that happens from time to time.  Matthew and I have only just become acquainted, and it has been through this website.  By making that comment to my page, I assume he was trying to build a little rapport with me by referencing someone else's earlier remark (about the Ferris wheel - I had nothing to do with that remark) and by noting that I probably haven't gotten an invite to the WMF (which, given Mike's and my history, is perhaps a slightly funny thing to speculate on). 

 

Terrific humor?  Nah, probably not the best.  But when someone makes a mostly harmless remark at our expense, it's best to let it slide.  I doubt there was anything intended to be hurtful in Matthew's post to my wall, and he may have reasoned that no one else would see it, either. 

 

Further, that remark, whether you think it funny or not, should be weighed against the other remarks and comments Matthew has made on this site.  As best I can see, they are almost all cogent, clear, and on-topic.  That should very much outweigh any single remark (unless perhaps the remark is awful in some way).

 

Perhaps I am underestimating this.  Maybe it's easy for me to call for this type of tolerance when the joke is not on me.  But experience leads me to believe such things are best let go, when possible. 

 

Another important aspect of tolerance that has been missing around here is the tolerance for ambiguity.  There are a lot of things that persons here, including myself, care deeply about, but for which we have very incomplete information.  For example, how much training, and of what type, should massage therapists receive?  (There are many other examples, of course, but this one is being discussed right now.)  The reason this question is so difficult to answer is that no one definitively knows the answer.  So, it behooves us, when expressing an opinion on such a matter to remind ourselves that no one, not even oneself, really knows this for sure.  If someone with a very different position comes along and says, essentially, 'you're wrong, it should be the other way,' you don't have to agree with them, but it perhaps is a good idea to remain aware of the possibility that you yourself could be wrong. 

 

-CM

Permalink Reply by Emmanuel Bistas on February 21, 2011 at 6:30pm

"I see your point here Emmanuel, and I tend to agree with it."

 

You tend to agree with it?  How does one tend to agree with something?  You should had left it alone Christopher, only Matthew looked bad before.  Now you both look bad. 

 

Now Matthew's comment "That's interesting Emmanuel, I hadn't picked up the underlying dynamic of elitism" makes so much more sense!

 

This is no different than country club racism.  It's like 30 years ago when the black folk sat in the boardroom and the white management pretended to hear them out and then cracked jokes at his expense when nobody was watching.  In the new massage world it's the woo-woo folk, the spa folk, the southern folk.  Pretty disgusting.  

 

I am letting it slide, what am I going to do, sue you?   

 

 

Permalink Reply by Christopher A. Moyer on February 21, 2011 at 6:41pm

"I see your point here Emmanuel, and I tend to agree with it."

 

You tend to agree with it?  How does one tend to agree with something?  You should had left it alone Christopher, only Matthew looked bad before.  Now you both look bad.

 

Wow.  If that's your reaction to general agreement, I can only guess what you'd have to say if I'd attempted to say you were wrong.

 

This is no different than country club racism.

 

No different?  Wow.

Permalink Reply by Vlad on February 21, 2011 at 7:08pm

This was going somewhere, but then it's kind of slipped back.

I'm coming out of lurkdom since I noticed something and maybe it can get back on track.

I think there's something on the recent discussions that has been identified as a problem by everyone and that's the teaching standards.  If our teachers were all great (I'm not saying we haven't got some, we do, but for the most part, big improvements could be made), the standards within the profession would be vastly improved.

OK, so that's cool.

So the other thing that seems to be evident is a value conflict on choice versus education standards in a specific field.

In other words - no modality should *go away* and choice is good whereas if you want to raise the standards in a view of what massage therapy is (no woo or *extra* modalities), then the two seem to conflict.

Before I'll say anything else, I'll just admit that I'm not exactly pro-woo (you'll understand this later in the post).  What I am is anti-ignorant.  I'm pro-"informed".  I'm also pro-choice - BUT therapists need to have the skill to make good, well-informed choices. 

So tying these two together: if teachers are taught to teach in such a way that therapists can make better informed choices with their own education, then that's what we should strive for.  At the minute that's not happening.  Everyone is out to *sell* their chunk of the pie, the therapists are not questioning what's put in front of them, questioning is not invited and teachers are more or less glorified.  Therapists deserve better.  We shouldn't be kept in the dark - you could argue that we shouldn't let ourselves be kept in the dark, but I think that a high number therapists trust their educators too much. Much of this has to do with critical thinking skills.

There's also something else to consider - is it ethical to teach unsubstantiated claims?  There are a lot of classes about the ethical practices of therapists - indeed, the nationally certified are forced to take refresher courses in them - and to be honest, I think that's a good thing - it forces people to reflect on what they're doing.  There aren't any references to the ethical practices of what is actually taught (is there anything to back the claims I'm making) or the behavior of the teachers.

There's something else that I'll throw in here that is just an example of how the *many modality* mix can have an impact on a therapist who just goes with the flow, but who gets a bit pissed off at it every now and then - just anecdotal, but it'll give one perspective on why I wish things would change.  Here are just 2 examples, I have many more:

 

- A new client comes in to my practice and the first thing she does is look under my table.  I thought she was looking for dust bunnies and tell her that I'm careful with dust since so many are allergic.  She looks at me and said "No - I'm checking to see if you've a copper pyramid.  My last massage therapist had one under her table."

 

- I go to a chair massage class and as part of the protocol taught we're shown this waving-of-hands-to-clear-the-energy above the clients head move.  (Note: Waving of hands doesn't even clear the air after my husband has a gas situation following a Chinese meal, it's hardly likely to work on anything else).  That was a chair massage class, yes.  It was stated like it was fact and the teacher had over 20 years experience and liked to make sure that everyone knew how many years experience she had.

 

OK, so "massage therapy" covers a lot.  For me, the fact that it covers so much is something that I've to put up with and I have to either put up with listening to teachers spout unsubstantiated claims or put up the the *massage therapist* down the road with a copper energy-vortexing, manipulating, lithium crystal hoogimajob under her table.  Is that fair?  I'm sure I'm not the only one that has this issue.  By the way, I'm not a *medical* MT, or a pure *spa* MT.  I'm somewhere in between. 

Anyway.  I just thought I'd pop on here - if nothing else, my husband's gas issue might lighten the mood.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 21, 2011 at 7:22pm

Hi Vlad,

 

We do take ethics classes because the NCB says we must. That is correct. It is the same NCB that certifies the class that the lady waves her hands and the lady with the copper pyramid.

 

We are all massage therapists according to those who license us. We need to all stay together and figure out the answers. In nursing there are many types and different numbers of hours to reach the levels, but they're nurses.

 



Vlad is now roadkill said:

This was going somewhere, but then it's kind of slipped back.

I'm coming out of lurkdom since I noticed something and maybe it can get back on track.

I think there's something on the recent discussions that has been identified as a problem by everyone and that's the teaching standards.  If our teachers were all great (I'm not saying we haven't got some, we do, but for the most part, big improvements could be made), the standards within the profession would be vastly improved.

OK, so that's cool.

So the other thing that seems to be evident is a value conflict on choice versus education standards in a specific field.

In other words - no modality should *go away* and choice is good whereas if you want to raise the standards in a view of what massage therapy is (no woo or *extra* modalities), then the two seem to conflict.

Before I'll say anything else, I'll just admit that I'm not exactly pro-woo (you'll understand this later in the post).  What I am is anti-ignorant.  I'm pro-"informed".  I'm also pro-choice - BUT therapists need to have the skill to make good, well-informed choices. 

So tying these two together: if teachers are taught to teach in such a way that therapists can make better informed choices with their own education, then that's what we should strive for.  At the minute that's not happening.  Everyone is out to *sell* their chunk of the pie, the therapists are not questioning what's put in front of them, questioning is not invited and teachers are more or less glorified.  Therapists deserve better.  We shouldn't be kept in the dark - you could argue that we shouldn't let ourselves be kept in the dark, but I think that a high number therapists trust their educators too much. Much of this has to do with critical thinking skills.

There's also something else to consider - is it ethical to teach unsubstantiated claims?  There are a lot of classes about the ethical practices of therapists - indeed, the nationally certified are forced to take refresher courses in them - and to be honest, I think that's a good thing - it forces people to reflect on what they're doing.  There aren't any references to the ethical practices of what is actually taught (is there anything to back the claims I'm making) or the behavior of the teachers.

There's something else that I'll throw in here that is just an example of how the *many modality* mix can have an impact on a therapist who just goes with the flow, but who gets a bit pissed off at it every now and then - just anecdotal, but it'll give one perspective on why I wish things would change.  Here are just 2 examples, I have many more:

 

- A new client comes in to my practice and the first thing she does is look under my table.  I thought she was looking for dust bunnies and tell her that I'm careful with dust since so many are allergic.  She looks at me and said "No - I'm checking to see if you've a copper pyramid.  My last massage therapist had one under her table."

 

- I go to a chair massage class and as part of the protocol taught we're shown this waving-of-hands-to-clear-the-energy above the clients head move.  (Note: Waving of hands doesn't even clear the air after my husband has a gas situation following a Chinese meal, it's hardly likely to work on anything else).  That was a chair massage class, yes.  It was stated like it was fact and the teacher had over 20 years experience and liked to make sure that everyone knew how many years experience she had.

 

OK, so "massage therapy" covers a lot.  For me, the fact that it covers so much is something that I've to put up with and I have to either put up with listening to teachers spout unsubstantiated claims or put up the the *massage therapist* down the road with a copper energy-vortexing, manipulating, lithium crystal hoogimajob under her table.  Is that fair?  I'm sure I'm not the only one that has this issue.  By the way, I'm not a *medical* MT, or a pure *spa* MT.  I'm somewhere in between. 

Anyway.  I just thought I'd pop on here - if nothing else, my husband's gas issue might lighten the mood.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Vlad on February 21, 2011 at 8:00pm

Yes, but is it ethical to sell copper pyramid classes if there's nothing to show that the copper pyramid works?

And is it ethical to address energy waving in a non-woo class when there's nothing to show that it works either?  (these are just two examples, by the way, but I think it gets the point across)

 

I'm referring to the teachers and their ethical behavior.

The fact that we have ethics classes is a good thing, but they're mostly geared towards the therapists and "here's how to behave ethically in practice". 

 

This is where aspirational ethics comes into play.  As an "out" people could say "the profession allows it, we should be allowed to teach what is allowed".  If we really want to be a *profession* we need to ask ourselves if we there's more that needs that needs to be thought about.

We're not a profession at the minute - we're an industry.  One of the things in my mind that separates the two is the aspirational ethics of those in it  - especially the educators. (Education could be viewed as one too - but we'll never come to any agreement on that it seems). So I'm just throwing this out there to see what people have to say.

 

Mike - you didn't say anything about how the pyramid woman will affect other therapists in the area.  She calls herself a massage therapist and any of her clients coming to me will have to be *re-educated* on the fact that a substantial number of us don't *believe* in the copper pyramid.  We've to show that we're rational thinkers. 

What I'm trying to say is that the silent therapists, who sit quietly in the class while their teachers bring up the woo, and *tolerate* it, aren't really provided a voice anywhere.  And we exist - believe me - my 2 MT buddies and I have talked about it a lot.  We keep our mouths shut because if we raise it, we're either looked upon as "not very in-tune with the Universe" or not trusting enough.  We're actually the silent minority in all this.  Here's the thing - we LOVE massage and we LOVE our jobs, but we've to put up with this.  What about us?

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 21, 2011 at 8:31pm

Hi Vlad,

 

Wow, most of those are way above my pay grade. :) And anything I say is MHO, ok? Long as the parsing stays out, I'll try.

 

I agree, you are the minority, but you are gaining numbers as long as the approach is paced. Heck AMTA has done wonders for licensure. And community colleges are changing their approach from just throwing programs together to really producing some winning ones. But, there is a long way to go till you are not the minority. From the list of those so far expressing these sentiments it looks like it is mostly AMTA members or MTF, here and across FB.

 

I guess I'll stick with your direct questions first. I don't know how she would affect business. There are so many varibles. Were the other customers coming to you affected by her? What I mean is, I didn't find out till after I left Pensacola that a lady down the street had been an enegy healer. No one ever mentioned her, so how was I to know? Did she affect my business?

Your lady did, I guess. It apparently affected your client and that affected you. After an explanation, that all therapists are not like that, calmed her and I guess kept her your client. So in a way you gained a customer, because I guess if the lady down the street hadn't had the pyramid, she may still have a client.

Next is stripping her of the name Massage Therapist warranted for the affect that you and your new client have? Not to me.

 

Here's the thing -she LOVES massage and she LOVES her job, but she has to put up with ridicule. What about her?

 

Was she there first? Did you scout your location? It seems NCB has not only accepted teachers that want to teach these techniques, but also to certify these therapists that have stood up to teach in this industry/profession. If you feel their standards aren't high enough and if would like to see them changed, they'd be the folks to talk with about that.

 

Again, above my pay grade.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Vlad on February 21, 2011 at 9:10pm

Yeah, Mike, the pyramid woman no doubt loves her job.  I'm only using her as one example of what we've to put up with. 

My main point isn't her - it's the fact that she's taught it.  Is it right to be taught something that has zero evidence to support it? 

There's another point that I wanted to make with that.  Each massage therapist is like a pixel in the picture of massage therapy that we present to the public.  Every claim that each therapist makes is a part of that picture.  If you get enough pixels that are *just not right* in the claims they're making, that picture isn't good.   Each of us is affected by the claims that all the rest of us make.  That's the thing.  I don't think most therapists think of it that way because there's a tendency for us all to be absorbed in our own wee practices, but it matters. 

 

As for whether the rational thinkers are the minority, I wonder if this whole site is really a mirror for the profession in the US.  If that's the case, then we are in the minority.  But that might be me not thinking right. 

I dunno.

OK - I'm off again.

 

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Alexei Levine on February 21, 2011 at 9:21pm

Vlad,


What about chi energy meridians?  I'm sure many MTs would consider them irrational as well.  I think it's fascinating that so many healers utilize these irrational systems to good effect.  We don't understand the mechanism of action of the placebo effect, but it's certainly useful.


Alexei

Vlad is now roadkill said:

Yeah, Mike, the pyramid woman no doubt loves her job.  I'm only using her as one example of what we've to put up with. 

My main point isn't her - it's the fact that she's taught it.  Is it right to be taught something that has zero evidence to support it? 

There's another point that I wanted to make with that.  Each massage therapist is like a pixel in the picture of massage therapy that we present to the public.  Every claim that each therapist makes is a part of that picture.  If you get enough pixels that are *just not right* in the claims they're making, that picture isn't good.   Each of us is affected by the claims that all the rest of us make.  That's the thing.  I don't think most therapists think of it that way because there's a tendency for us all to be absorbed in our own wee practices, but it matters. 

 

As for whether the rational thinkers are the minority, I wonder if this whole site is really a mirror for the profession in the US.  If that's the case, then we are in the minority.  But that might be me not thinking right. 

I dunno.

OK - I'm off again.

 

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Matthew D. Stewart on February 21, 2011 at 9:24pm
Posting a public comment "So, will you take up that invitation to visit the World Massage Festival? ;-)  Mike Hinkle never did answer Susan Chapelle's question of whether there was going to be a ferris wheel at the festival!" after all this messy discussion does not create a climate of cooperation or trust, is that right Matthew? 

I happen to like ferris wheels Emmanuel, the tend to give perspective on the world and move at a calming pace.

If my clumsy attempts at humour offend you Emmanuel, my full apology. 

I'll let that comment of comparing me to a racist slide because, even though I haven't met you Emmanuel, I sure you are an intelligent, compassionate guy if your are involved in massage and teaching I couldn't imagine you'd actually say something like that to me face-to-face.

 

Permalink Reply by Vlad on February 21, 2011 at 9:47pm
What about chi energy meridians?  I'm sure many MTs would consider them irrational as well.  I think it's fascinating that so many healers utilize these irrational systems to good effect.  We don't understand the mechanism of action of the placebo effect, but it's certainly useful.


 

Alexei - it's not *taught* as if it's a placebo though, is it?  And it's not going to be sold as if it's a placebo.  It's not even taught as if it's a "well, this is what we've got here - belief based, not much to back it up, and in fact, trials have shown it to have little evidence for having any therapeutic benefit at all." 

Here's the other thing.  Is the word "placebo" in most therapist's vocabulary?  Is it brought up in their training?  Are they tested on whether they know what is meant by the placebo effect in basic training so that they can say "is modality x a placebo or is there any therapeutic effect to it" and can they then go and come to their own conclusions on it? Do they know how it's controlled for in research?  If you look at some of the massage magazines, they've got "Hey lookee at this abstract of this study and that in that modality and this - aint' it great".  And therapists are looking at abstracts, not knowing how to look at them critically and buying into it.  I've come to think of part of my basic training (not all of it - part of it) as being mushroom-like.  I was pretty much kept in the dark and fed dung.  I'm still fed dung in the advertising for all the new hip'n'cool modalities that there's a spread on in the magazines (although I have to say that there is also some good stuff in the mags too, sometimes, and Massage Today is a pretty good wee publication).

Ignorance of such things are not good.  In fact, it's harmful.  The whole "lookee here, it works" thing can make people think something does work if they don't know how to look at it.  (for example - "we've got lots of case studies that show modality x works".  Uncool).

 

If you want to go into a "is selling a placebo ethical" debate, man, I can't do it.  Someone else might want to take you up on it since I'm still trying to figure where I'm at with the whole placebo *thing*.  I'm still learning about it, and reading about it and I don't feel well enough informed to have a well thought out opinion on it. 

Claims matter though.  Questioning of claims and their validity should happen all over - that's not just a *in our profession* thing - that's a *generally, in society* thing. 

 

 


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