Response to "Knot in a muscle' post

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on August 9, 2011 at 1:14pm

Boris Prilutsky said:

Everyone welcome to ask questions including you. And I made it clear .You/Christopher always trying to distract and therefore I asked  you first of all to answer this questions. By posting this questions I just prevented destruction. This is all. No one but you ,called medical doctors nasty, as well no one but you stated :” medical doctors are not usually right about anything really, since they like science”

as I already explained, references  to scientific data not always is reliable, as an example I brought all recalls by FDA. Most of the people including myself love science . What is absolutely obvious, that you far from understanding science related to massage therapy. Your  attempt to doctrine that science of massage start from  meta-analysis has nothing to do with reality of treatment room where we have to deliver results. The book that teaching not to perform massage in cases of non-septic inflammatory conditions is not good book and should be ignored . For example orthopedic massage protocols implementations designed to address inflammatory conditions such as tendinitis , bursitis , myositis etc. most of sports related injuries, job-related injuries, painful degenerative diseases of support  and movement system etc. secondary causing developments of inflammatory disorders, and massage therapy is a most powerful methodology to address it. You asked me if most my reference in Russian. Yes. Most of them in Russian and some in German language. Methodology that I am practicing was developed in Russia, and is reliable methodology because it is in massive clinical use for more than 50 years, and  proven as safed and effective, as well  of course developed through scientific investigation/research and therefore all explanations scientifically sound. When I present to medical doctors, no one asking reference but judging presentation. For example . This doctors expecting and accepting all scientific facts that I proposed at my abdominal/ visceral massage video lessons as well will  understood my questions that I proposed to you, as well capable to answer . This is the reason if one would like to challenge  presented material she/he first  would analyze presented material. The difference is ,You see huge importants in reference, and I in clinical outcome. If one will place reference or books against painful/trouble area would it help??????? Answer on questions and I will provide reference but this references  do not make different in clinical outcomes. proposed and correctly applied abdominal/ visceral massage protocol will help.

Wish you get well.

PS.BTW you have to purchase Dr.Turchaninov Medical massage textbook. He did huge work  I would say too much work (no one read this reference),collecting international scientific data and offering huge amount of references. But most important is not reference, in his text he  offering scientific reviews and proposing hands-on protocols. Exactly what I did in my lessons.

Answer on  my questions and you'll get references.

 

Vlad said:

Yes, don't ask questions, people.  If you do, you're a *distraction*.

Just be aware of contraindications for inflammatory conditions and look up a few books before listening to anyone.  Cross referencing is also a useful skill to have.  Yep. 

Oh, and those nasty medical doctors are not usually right about anything really, since they like science - kinda like those nasty people that developed the internet.

Nasty - all of them.  And Christopher is nasty too. But he likes it.

Yep.

I'm off again!

 

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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on August 9, 2011 at 1:58pm

My experience as a massage therapist is much different then others on this thread I guess.....It might be interesting reading detailed complicated books written by doctors, but I find it irrelevant to what I do... Example.. And I have tons of examples.. A month ago or so, women came in with crutches...aa extremely painful foot. Doctors told her she had Bursitis and not much could be done... All I  did was massage her foot... and she walked out without her crutches....Met her a few days ago...foot is fine.. No more pain... Ok... All I did was find a sore spot in the arch of her foot....It was sore as hell... I massage her foot in a way that really felt good to her.. a good hurt...thats it.... Cured.... I do that all the time, every day.....Dont have to be a doctor to be a massage therapist....I dont even know the names of those muscles in her foot that I massaged.. It just seems to me that there is a lot of unnecessary intellectual bull poop out there.. That only makes things more complicated then they really are....Earlier in this thread I had people on my case because they said my definition of a trigger point was wrong...and Im giving false information so on?  Well who cares?  I just massage people, regardless of the true definition of a trigger point....And it usually ends up just like the client that came in with crutches...Im just a massage therapist. I keep it simple...Yet its a highly effective therapy, that trumps most medical diagnosis-es....Its like Ive said before... You can study yoga for years.. Trying to do it right, getting into all kinds of details and nuances  as to proper form and posture...Or you can just stretch like a cat..They dont think.  I never think or worry about myogelosis or whatever???  People that come into see me for various problems...Im able to dramatically help most of them...So much so, that Im high from it...

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Permalink Reply by Vlad on August 9, 2011 at 2:06pm

You're giving presentations to doctors without giving references to studies?  Am I to presume that none of those doctors asked for them?

Interesting.

 

You're saying everyone is welcome to ask questions and when I ask one, you give me an ultimatum - "I'll only answer your one question if you answer these multitude of questions".

Do you do the same with your students in a classroom setting if they ask one question?

 

Also, you're presuming way to much about my view of science.  You're basing my view of science on one statement I made about meta-analysis in another thread.  You seem to think they are of no use, I disagree - so what?  Your buddy Ross probably doesn't think they're of no use since they had Christopher as "person of the month" in his site and he is known for his meta-analysis (plus he has also done a lot more than that). 

 

Here's the thing, Boris.  You have called me out as being a *distraction*, yet I'm not the only one that you've lead to saying "There's no point in me even asking this dude anything".  This isn't the first time I've asked you something and you didn't just give me an answer.

Also, I'm not the first person that has decided to get off this thread and not interact with you anymore. 

You should maybe think about that.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on August 9, 2011 at 3:32pm

You said:” You're giving presentations to doctors without giving references to studies?  Am I to presume that none of those doctors asked for them?

When I starting my presentation I am declaring that I'm practicing medical and sports massage as it was proposed by Russian physician professor Sherback. Then I present foundations of segments reflex  massage including physiological effect of massage, and then I am demonstrating my hands on. Because presenting material is scientifically sound, and doctors not really familiar with massage therapy there is no need to request reference. They just judging as well in most cases accepting it as conventional medical massage. Sometimes I am offering results of pilot experiments that I did in US.

 

You said:”Do you do the same with your students in a classroom setting if they ask one question?”

Please review my post and our discussion :” body cells carry emotional memory”

Exactly like today, nor you/Christopher didn't offer nothing, but repeatedly destructed and asked  references where this emotions are stored?. Despite the fact that I answered" no one knows" and in my article I stated that responsible to think that this negative emotions stored somewhere in brain, but bookmarks is in  body cells. Many times at this discussion, including in my article, I explained that this theory is a true one because we observing it in clinical settings at the time of procedures. You/Christopher didn't dispute existence of this theory, but repeatedly destructed by demanding reference  to clinical facts. The same Christopher did when Michael offered beautiful YouTube clip where on the front of  our eyes some lady placed hands on very sick Wolf by name apricot , and obviously changed to the  better very difficult clinical picture. I was amazed, and posted that in my opinion  she performed very powerful energy work. Christopher destructed, potentially beautiful and beneficial for all practitioners conversation by demanding proof and reference how it works.

From my students I getting respect, no one called me“ Wolf “as you did  at one of your posts and as well students coming to my classes not to ask reference only, but to learn as well to exchange ideas. Can you see the different????????

 

 

You said:”Also, you're presuming way to much about my view of science.  You're basing my view of science on one statement I made about meta-analysis in another thread.  You seem to think they are of no use, I disagree - so what?  “

You Christopher never proposed  your views on science including on science of massage, but always demanding reference, and proofs and…..

You said:”Your buddy Ross probably doesn't think they're of no use since they had Christopher as "person of the month" in his site and he is known for his meta-analysis (plus he has also done a lot more than that). “

1. Dr. Ross is my friend as well health care professional whom I admire, but not always we  sharing the same views.
2. in regards of meta-analysis and importance of it I and Dr.Ross happened to agree

In the past ,back in our country in different composites,we both used meta-analysis data, and appreciating huge importance of this analysis. specifically and special when working on research protocol development.

My problem with you/Christopher was constant destructions of clinical discussions in a manner as I described in this post. Nothing to do with meta-analysis.

 

 

You said:”Here's the thing, Boris.  You have called me out as being a *distraction*, yet I'm not the only one that you've lead to saying "There's no point in me even asking this dude anything". 

Vlad/Christopher however you are. I have no power to call anyone out, and specifically at this professional site. If I am participating in discussion then, I cannot agree with some things that are not acceptable, but when I disagree, I explain in details why I disagree, why one shouldn't make claims that having nothing to do, with particular/ discussed Pathology. As well why not to use some terminology. I see it as opportunity to share my knowledge.BTW. It just happened  that Medical massage as a name of therapy as well concept, was first in America proposed by Dr. Ross, as well by  myself. medical/orthopedic massage protocols including trigger point therapy, and we  offered acquired knowledge, and clinical experiences.what was wrong with it?to call  Dr. Kaufman;s "secret" trigger point therapy explanation as ridiculous. I mean no one forced me to invest my time and to produce this lessons. I just  started witnessing increasing cases involving abdominals dysfunctions and want to believe the community appreciating my work including me expressing professional opinions. This all.

Read careful Gordon’s recent post. I always said that I do believe that he can deliver good results. His explanation at recent post is honest and acceptable and thank God he not offering  no theory as an explanation how he got results .as he described what he did I can explain why he reached fast result.  BTW. Described Bursitis that Gordon successfully addressed is an inflammatory conditions.

I really would ignore you, really would, but some in this discussion members can learn.

 

Vlad said:

You're giving presentations to doctors without giving references to studies?  Am I to presume that none of those doctors asked for them?

Interesting.

 

You're saying everyone is welcome to ask questions and when I ask one, you give me an ultimatum - "I'll only answer your one question if you answer these multitude of questions".

Do you do the same with your students in a classroom setting if they ask one question?

 

Also, you're presuming way to much about my view of science.  You're basing my view of science on one statement I made about meta-analysis in another thread.  You seem to think they are of no use, I disagree - so what?  Your buddy Ross probably doesn't think they're of no use since they had Christopher as "person of the month" in his site and he is known for his meta-analysis (plus he has also done a lot more than that). 

 

Here's the thing, Boris.  You have called me out as being a *distraction*, yet I'm not the only one that you've lead to saying "There's no point in me even asking this dude anything".  This isn't the first time I've asked you something and you didn't just give me an answer.

Also, I'm not the first person that has decided to get off this thread and not interact with you anymore. 

You should maybe think about that.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Vlad on August 9, 2011 at 3:57pm

Just for clarification for anyone else, this is what Boris has said before:

 

"meta-analysis and all statistic that coming from it,having no value.you probably didn't  born when I already participate in researches including being principal investigator.definitely I do not speak for you, but hoping that for many."

 

Also, this discussion between he and I came about because I asked the question:

Hi Boris,

Can you give references to show how statis of venous blood can cause each of these conditions:

 

Stress and resulting stasis of venous blood in abdominal cavity causes multiple abnormalities such as Chron’s disease, gastric ulcers, gastro intestinal track diseases, colitis, constipation, irregularity and insufficiency of bowel movement, diverticulitis, acid reflux diseases and irritable bowel syndrome but also not limited to producing severe lower back pain.

 

Thanks. 

 

Please be aware of that - you can see it for yourself.

That word "cause" is important.

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on August 9, 2011 at 4:41pm

maybe in arguments with  you I didn't express correctly my views  and opinion on meta-analysis .therefore using the opportunity will correct what I meant: 

"meta-analysis and all statistic that coming from it,having no value in clinical work.you probably didn't  born when I already participate in researches including being principal investigator.definitely I do not speak for you, but hoping that for many"

I  mean meta-analysis is necessary in many cases, when one preparing research protocol on particular subject, and using this meta-analysis data in order to use this data for better and extended  research. I will repeat in clinical set up ,I mean when practitioner already learn and utilizing steps for particular conditions meta-analysis is not applicable. You did try to enforce  the approach of meta-analysis to practitioners. With this attempt enforcing of  meta-analysis  as clinical application, you not only confused everyone, but also destructed clinical oriented conversation ,where everyone could learn something of it.

Medical and sports massage  scope of practice containing approximately 60+ case presentations. Means 60+ different protocols. Can you propose meta-analysis data to this 60 cases?most likely not. But another important question is why we need it?are all members of this site working to develop research protocol  for IRB approval?

most of us including  myself as we speaking are clinicians.

Vlad said:

Just for clarification for anyone else, this is what Boris has said before:

 

"meta-analysis and all statistic that coming from it,having no value.you probably didn't  born when I already participate in researches including being principal investigator.definitely I do not speak for you, but hoping that for many."

 

Also, this discussion between he and I came about because I asked the question:

Hi Boris,

Can you give references to show how statis of venous blood can cause each of these conditions:

 

Stress and resulting stasis of venous blood in abdominal cavity causes multiple abnormalities such as Chron’s disease, gastric ulcers, gastro intestinal track diseases, colitis, constipation, irregularity and insufficiency of bowel movement, diverticulitis, acid reflux diseases and irritable bowel syndrome but also not limited to producing severe lower back pain.

 

Thanks. 

 

Please be aware of that - you can see it for yourself.

That word "cause" is important.

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on August 10, 2011 at 12:20am

sorry guys. Was a bit interrupted, and distracted from my original plans to discuss with you in much broader  way inflammatory conditions/diseases within inner organs of abdominals cavities. As you understood from my abdominal /visceral massage lesson /presentation due to  venous stasis different gastro intestinal track diseases including Chron’s disease affecting many people. In my opinion ,nowadays’ massive phenomenon of these dysfunctions/diseases is a tribute to itremendous amount of stress that we all exposed too. This stress causing venous stasis, is contributing to decrease of arterial blood supply secondary triggering inflammations including , lymphedemas developments Etc. On the other hand inflammatory  Chron’s disease can be initiated, due to viral infection, autoimmune reactions etc. where this cycle is close? If in stress related cases all inflammatory condition starts because of venous stasis, in other cases developed inflammation producing venous stasis, that of course will create insufficiency of arterial blood supply. As you can see no matter what will trigger inflammatory diseases within abdominal cavities, protocol of abdominal /visceral massage is very effective because no  one of available methodologies but massage,  in a short period of time will accelerate venus blood drainage, will reduce sizes of lymphedema and most importantly will stimulate much-needed arterial blood supply which is real stimulation of healing process. If you  will have any question, I will be more than happy to answer to my best abilities.

Best wishes.

Boris

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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on August 10, 2011 at 7:55pm

An unrelated question.  A friend who lives in another city reports that when arm is hanging down from the shoulder, he loses pulse and gets feeling of numbness in it; it is relieved somewhat when arm is held horizontal; lifted overhead, the symptoms return to a lesser degree. 

Is this TOS and if so, where is the compression likely to be?  Could it be CVD, even tho not affecting leg circulation at all?

 

= Gary

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on August 11, 2011 at 8:36am

Hi Boris

I have looked at the video's you offer and can say I treat very simularly to the way you do. (Was very impressed with the quality) Just shame can't go straight through (you tube limitations) with presentation.

 

A woman I knew had crohn's disease, I have seen it at its worst = she was biteing her finger as a distraction to her intense stomach pain when I took her to hospitol  where she could get medication for extreame flare up.

Then I learned how my massage skills could help reduce her stress levels and crohns flare up and therefore medication.

 

You are right to highlight  MT has a massive potential to help with this and many other chronic pain conditions.

You are keeping good company in doing so.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on August 11, 2011 at 9:24am

Gary W Addis said:

An unrelated question.  A friend who lives in another city reports that when arm is hanging down from the shoulder, he loses pulse and gets feeling of numbness in it; it is relieved somewhat when arm is held horizontal; lifted overhead, the symptoms return to a lesser degree. 

Is this TOS and if so, where is the compression likely to be?  Could it be CVD, even tho not affecting leg circulation at all?

 

= Gary

 

PS: today the friend reports that he sometimes feels faint when the arm is hanging.  My instinct was to advise him to visit a cardiovascular guy, that to my knowledge TOS wouldn't cause lightheadeness way up high above the brachial plexus  Am I correct in that assumption?

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on August 11, 2011 at 10:53am

Hi Stephen.

Thank you very much for post.feedbacks like yours is important for me. I mean, I did some work and as anyone need to know what people  thinking.I'm glad to learn , you utilizing similar techniques. I produced this lesson" from the hip"and offered it free of charge, because of massive phenomena as well  recent case of 26 years old beautiful woman who could  lose her live to  psychiatric care,being mentally absolutely  healthy woman,who suffered tremendously because of abdominal dysfunctions including venous stasis and adhesions.the  abdominal/visceral massage protocol is simple but most  powerful in such cases.thanks again.

Best wishes

Boris

PS.You said:"You are keeping good company in doing so."this is so important to know. Thanks.

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Boris

I have looked at the video's you offer and can say I treat very simularly to the way you do. (Was very impressed with the quality) Just shame can't go straight through (you tube limitations) with presentation.

 

A woman I knew had crohn's disease, I have seen it at its worst = she was biteing her finger as a distraction to her intense stomach pain when I took her to hospitol  where she could get medication for extreame flare up.

Then I learned how my massage skills could help reduce her stress levels and crohns flare up and therefore medication.

 

You are right to highlight  MT has a massive potential to help with this and many other chronic pain conditions.

You are keeping good company in doing so.

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on August 11, 2011 at 11:05am

Hi  Gary.

As you described symptoms, it looks like  neurological picture(ASM syndrome possible), but also cardio diseases can produce the same symptoms. Differential  diagnosis by qualified MD must.I believe that primary care physician could be good for it. In  regards of :"feels faint when the arm is hanging".it could be just anxiety but also some heart insufficiency. In any case he must see Dr. first.

sooner is better.in some cases like this and especially when left arm  involved ER should be option. after Dr. will excluded

heart dysfunction or else this is our case.

hope I was helpful

Best wishes.

Boris

Gary W Addis said:

An unrelated question.  A friend who lives in another city reports that when arm is hanging down from the shoulder, he loses pulse and gets feeling of numbness in it; it is relieved somewhat when arm is held horizontal; lifted overhead, the symptoms return to a lesser degree. 

Is this TOS and if so, where is the compression likely to be?  Could it be CVD, even tho not affecting leg circulation at all?

 

= Gary

 

PS: today the friend reports that he sometimes feels faint when the arm is hanging.  My instinct was to advise him to visit a cardiovascular guy, that to my knowledge TOS wouldn't cause lightheadeness way up high above the brachial plexus  Am I correct in that assumption?

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