Response to "Knot in a muscle' post

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on October 27, 2011 at 2:37am

Massage is like the martial arts..There are many paths.

Gary W Addis said:

I don't think there is any one method that works best for everyone.  We are all so very different-- heck, even the patterns our hair grows in are as different as fingerprints.  Most important lesson I have learned-- and it can't be found in a book or CD-- is to attune the inner ear to to the tissue.  It can be quite vocal, can't it?  :)

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Permalink Reply by Dr. Ross Turchaninov on October 27, 2011 at 3:18am

Good luck Gary. I am sure that you are on the right track

 

Dr. Ross

Gary W Addis said:

Thank you for the response, Doc.  I have become a fan.  

As I will be a student for about four more months, I cannot charge a fee, so there is seldom a time constraint on my sessions.  So, I am free to begin anew as if seeing the body for the first time--with this one difference: every session teaches me something else about this particular body on my table. 

If the client complains of issues in a particular area, I prefer to get to it right away.  After a thorough warmup of the area (little or no lubrication at this time), I search for hypertonicity and trigger points within the tight tissue.  I work proximal to distal, beginning at the spots closest to the spine.  Working this way, quite often I find that satellite TPs I discovered  during my assessment lower down dissolve without my touching them.  If I find a "jumper" nodule, after I work the rest of the body I come back to it, employ a broader tool and MFR pin-and-stretch sweep of the area.  

One of my favorite clients is 62 year old male.  He is tall, and walks with a forward tilt to his head and thorax, and below, an exaggerated lordotic curl.  During my first session with him I found a TP every couple of inches-- great experience for me.  Took me five weeks to clear all the TPs and keep them from recurring, but today he called to say he was pain free for the first time in ten years.  My friends Gordon, Boris, or Daniel could have brought the client along quicker, I'm sure.  But the client is pleased, so I am pleased.    

I'll update the video player plugin and try your website again.  

 

= Gary      

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Hi Gary

 

This is great that you are observer. It is foundation for being effective practitioner. As you noticed in the article we pointed out that solution is in the combination of approaches instead of stroking or compression only. Also if you have stubborn trigger points it means only one thing that you deal with mild to moderate irritation of the spinal or peripheral nerve which supplies the muscle which harbor active trigger point. Until nerve under the pressure it doesn't matter what practitioner uses the trigger point re-activates. Thus the only solution is to find the location of peripheral nerve entrapment on the upper (to the existed trigger point) level. When nerve is free the stubborn trigger points will melt away. This critical fact the proponents of local only theory of trigger point origin an treatment failed to understand.

In regard to video. You need to update your Media Player to play videos. If you go to technical support on the front page of www.scienceofmassage.com you will see frequently asked questions. There you will find the link to update Media Player.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

 

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on October 27, 2011 at 9:36am

Congrates Gary,

On finding your way through the mountain of information on massage therapy and still being able to tune in to your intuition.

Wishing you many more successes.:)

Gary W Addis said:

Thank you for the response, Doc.  I have become a fan.  

As I will be a student for about four more months, I cannot charge a fee, so there is seldom a time constraint on my sessions.  So, I am free to begin anew as if seeing the body for the first time--with this one difference: every session teaches me something else about this particular body on my table. 

If the client complains of issues in a particular area, I prefer to get to it right away.  After a thorough warmup of the area (little or no lubrication at this time), I search for hypertonicity and trigger points within the tight tissue.  I work proximal to distal, beginning at the spots closest to the spine.  Working this way, quite often I find that satellite TPs I discovered  during my assessment lower down dissolve without my touching them.  If I find a "jumper" nodule, after I work the rest of the body I come back to it, employ a broader tool and MFR pin-and-stretch sweep of the area.  

One of my favorite clients is 62 year old male.  He is tall, and walks with a forward tilt to his head and thorax, and below, an exaggerated lordotic curl.  During my first session with him I found a TP every couple of inches-- great experience for me.  Took me five weeks to clear all the TPs and keep them from recurring, but today he called to say he was pain free for the first time in ten years.  My friends Gordon, Boris, or Daniel could have brought the client along quicker, I'm sure.  But the client is pleased, so I am pleased.    

I'll update the video player plugin and try your website again.  

 

= Gary      

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Hi Gary

 

This is great that you are observer. It is foundation for being effective practitioner. As you noticed in the article we pointed out that solution is in the combination of approaches instead of stroking or compression only. Also if you have stubborn trigger points it means only one thing that you deal with mild to moderate irritation of the spinal or peripheral nerve which supplies the muscle which harbor active trigger point. Until nerve under the pressure it doesn't matter what practitioner uses the trigger point re-activates. Thus the only solution is to find the location of peripheral nerve entrapment on the upper (to the existed trigger point) level. When nerve is free the stubborn trigger points will melt away. This critical fact the proponents of local only theory of trigger point origin an treatment failed to understand.

In regard to video. You need to update your Media Player to play videos. If you go to technical support on the front page of www.scienceofmassage.com you will see frequently asked questions. There you will find the link to update Media Player.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on October 27, 2011 at 10:10am

Stephen you said it well.

 

Gary trust the feel even more than your head.

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Congrates Gary,

On finding your way through the mountain of information on massage therapy and still being able to tune in to your intuition.

Wishing you many more successes.:)

Gary W Addis said:

Thank you for the response, Doc.  I have become a fan.  

As I will be a student for about four more months, I cannot charge a fee, so there is seldom a time constraint on my sessions.  So, I am free to begin anew as if seeing the body for the first time--with this one difference: every session teaches me something else about this particular body on my table. 

If the client complains of issues in a particular area, I prefer to get to it right away.  After a thorough warmup of the area (little or no lubrication at this time), I search for hypertonicity and trigger points within the tight tissue.  I work proximal to distal, beginning at the spots closest to the spine.  Working this way, quite often I find that satellite TPs I discovered  during my assessment lower down dissolve without my touching them.  If I find a "jumper" nodule, after I work the rest of the body I come back to it, employ a broader tool and MFR pin-and-stretch sweep of the area.  

One of my favorite clients is 62 year old male.  He is tall, and walks with a forward tilt to his head and thorax, and below, an exaggerated lordotic curl.  During my first session with him I found a TP every couple of inches-- great experience for me.  Took me five weeks to clear all the TPs and keep them from recurring, but today he called to say he was pain free for the first time in ten years.  My friends Gordon, Boris, or Daniel could have brought the client along quicker, I'm sure.  But the client is pleased, so I am pleased.    

I'll update the video player plugin and try your website again.  

 

= Gary      

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Hi Gary

 

This is great that you are observer. It is foundation for being effective practitioner. As you noticed in the article we pointed out that solution is in the combination of approaches instead of stroking or compression only. Also if you have stubborn trigger points it means only one thing that you deal with mild to moderate irritation of the spinal or peripheral nerve which supplies the muscle which harbor active trigger point. Until nerve under the pressure it doesn't matter what practitioner uses the trigger point re-activates. Thus the only solution is to find the location of peripheral nerve entrapment on the upper (to the existed trigger point) level. When nerve is free the stubborn trigger points will melt away. This critical fact the proponents of local only theory of trigger point origin an treatment failed to understand.

In regard to video. You need to update your Media Player to play videos. If you go to technical support on the front page of www.scienceofmassage.com you will see frequently asked questions. There you will find the link to update Media Player.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on October 27, 2011 at 10:26am

Hi Dr Turchaninov

I have read your latest article on the TP debate and for me this info reinforces my belief in Ishemic compression thankyou very much.

I too tried to put this to Joe Muscolinoa while back. ( scroll down comment wall)

http://www.massageprofessionals.com/group/joemuscolinotheartandscie...

Like you he still has my greatest respect.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on October 27, 2011 at 2:43pm

Thanks, Stephen.  I've about finished my modalities  This qtr studying Chinese energy modalities and shiatsu.  I'm "getting it," but don't think I want to pursue additional training in either.  I'd like to become the area's "go-to" guy for clinical massage--and that will require me to develop a more intuitive touch to accompany textbook knowledge.  Next quarter will be special pop massage (a soupcon of pregnancy, geriatric, reflexology, sports massage), internship/externship, and exam review.  I am fairly sure that I could have passed the national months ago (on a practice exam I scored 79, even tho about 30% of the questions were about the eastern stuff I'm just now studying).  But the classroom review will be appreciated-- who was it who once said, "I've forgotten more than I ever knew about..."   

The forums here have been a tremendous help, exposing me to techniques that could possibly have taken me decades to discover on my own.  Regular contributors to the forums have generously shared their expertise.  If I started listing names, I'd be at this awhile.  :) Though massage therapists are in a strict business competitors, we are united by our desire to help our clients. I am proud to be associated with such generous, caring people.

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Congrates Gary,

On finding your way through the mountain of information on massage therapy and still being able to tune in to your intuition.

Wishing you many more successes.:)

Gary W Addis said:

Thank you for the response, Doc.  I have become a fan.  

As I will be a student for about four more months, I cannot charge a fee, so there is seldom a time constraint on my sessions.  So, I am free to begin anew as if seeing the body for the first time--with this one difference: every session teaches me something else about this particular body on my table. 

If the client complains of issues in a particular area, I prefer to get to it right away.  After a thorough warmup of the area (little or no lubrication at this time), I search for hypertonicity and trigger points within the tight tissue.  I work proximal to distal, beginning at the spots closest to the spine.  Working this way, quite often I find that satellite TPs I discovered  during my assessment lower down dissolve without my touching them.  If I find a "jumper" nodule, after I work the rest of the body I come back to it, employ a broader tool and MFR pin-and-stretch sweep of the area.  

One of my favorite clients is 62 year old male.  He is tall, and walks with a forward tilt to his head and thorax, and below, an exaggerated lordotic curl.  During my first session with him I found a TP every couple of inches-- great experience for me.  Took me five weeks to clear all the TPs and keep them from recurring, but today he called to say he was pain free for the first time in ten years.  My friends Gordon, Boris, or Daniel could have brought the client along quicker, I'm sure.  But the client is pleased, so I am pleased.    

I'll update the video player plugin and try your website again.  

 

= Gary      

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Hi Gary

 

This is great that you are observer. It is foundation for being effective practitioner. As you noticed in the article we pointed out that solution is in the combination of approaches instead of stroking or compression only. Also if you have stubborn trigger points it means only one thing that you deal with mild to moderate irritation of the spinal or peripheral nerve which supplies the muscle which harbor active trigger point. Until nerve under the pressure it doesn't matter what practitioner uses the trigger point re-activates. Thus the only solution is to find the location of peripheral nerve entrapment on the upper (to the existed trigger point) level. When nerve is free the stubborn trigger points will melt away. This critical fact the proponents of local only theory of trigger point origin an treatment failed to understand.

In regard to video. You need to update your Media Player to play videos. If you go to technical support on the front page of www.scienceofmassage.com you will see frequently asked questions. There you will find the link to update Media Player.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on October 27, 2011 at 3:15pm

Twenty+ years of trucking taught me that when one decides he/she knows everything there is to know about driving a truck for a living, it's time to quit the business before you seriously hurt somebody.  Six weeks of truck driving school taught me to shift the gears and to fill out a DOT logbook, but the miles taught me to be a trucker.  Classes in anatomy, kinesiology, nutrition and the modalities taught me muscles and their actions, but the bodies entrusted to me are teaching me massage therapy.  

I've had some great instructors in massage school.  But the friends I've made here on this forum are my mentors.  In the classroom I am one of many; here, I am a class of one.

Thank you all.

= Gary   

Daniel Cohen said:

Stephen you said it well.

 

Gary trust the feel even more than your head.

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Congrates Gary,

On finding your way through the mountain of information on massage therapy and still being able to tune in to your intuition.

Wishing you many more successes.:)

Gary W Addis said:

Thank you for the response, Doc.  I have become a fan.  

As I will be a student for about four more months, I cannot charge a fee, so there is seldom a time constraint on my sessions.  So, I am free to begin anew as if seeing the body for the first time--with this one difference: every session teaches me something else about this particular body on my table. 

If the client complains of issues in a particular area, I prefer to get to it right away.  After a thorough warmup of the area (little or no lubrication at this time), I search for hypertonicity and trigger points within the tight tissue.  I work proximal to distal, beginning at the spots closest to the spine.  Working this way, quite often I find that satellite TPs I discovered  during my assessment lower down dissolve without my touching them.  If I find a "jumper" nodule, after I work the rest of the body I come back to it, employ a broader tool and MFR pin-and-stretch sweep of the area.  

One of my favorite clients is 62 year old male.  He is tall, and walks with a forward tilt to his head and thorax, and below, an exaggerated lordotic curl.  During my first session with him I found a TP every couple of inches-- great experience for me.  Took me five weeks to clear all the TPs and keep them from recurring, but today he called to say he was pain free for the first time in ten years.  My friends Gordon, Boris, or Daniel could have brought the client along quicker, I'm sure.  But the client is pleased, so I am pleased.    

I'll update the video player plugin and try your website again.  

 

= Gary      

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Hi Gary

 

This is great that you are observer. It is foundation for being effective practitioner. As you noticed in the article we pointed out that solution is in the combination of approaches instead of stroking or compression only. Also if you have stubborn trigger points it means only one thing that you deal with mild to moderate irritation of the spinal or peripheral nerve which supplies the muscle which harbor active trigger point. Until nerve under the pressure it doesn't matter what practitioner uses the trigger point re-activates. Thus the only solution is to find the location of peripheral nerve entrapment on the upper (to the existed trigger point) level. When nerve is free the stubborn trigger points will melt away. This critical fact the proponents of local only theory of trigger point origin an treatment failed to understand.

In regard to video. You need to update your Media Player to play videos. If you go to technical support on the front page of www.scienceofmassage.com you will see frequently asked questions. There you will find the link to update Media Player.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on October 27, 2011 at 4:17pm

Stephen, I just now revisited the ancient thread you mention below.  With apologies to Dr Muscolino, Dr Turchaninov's new article (and accompanying video and diagrams) provides an effective rebuttal to Muscolino's argument. I found Turchaninov's skin "pinch test" to be particularly telling.  Having been an anabolic steroid user 30+ years ago, I personally attest that the rebound effect is real (i.e., when I took the synthetic hormone, natural production felI; when I cycled off the drug, natural production surged well above normal for a short time).

I do want to learn the deep stroking method, and have tried it a couple of times, but so far without success.  Admittedly, I may not be doing the stroking thing correctly, having seen it only on short video clips.  But I do know that ischemic compression is effective.  Obviously, I lack enough experience to make a judgement call regarding which method is better.

Oh, Lordy, there is still so much to learn! 

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Dr Turchaninov

I have read your latest article on the TP debate and for me this info reinforces my belief in Ishemic compression thankyou very much.

I too tried to put this to Joe Muscolinoa while back. ( scroll down comment wall)

http://www.massageprofessionals.com/group/joemuscolinotheartandscie...

Like you he still has my greatest respect.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dr. Ross Turchaninov on October 28, 2011 at 2:26am

Hi Stephen

I am glad that share same views. I would like to stress it one more time that what Dr Muscolino recommends is vital but unfortunately partial approach. In cases of newly developed trigger points it may work for a while. However I learned long ago that ANY chronic abnormality in the human body requires integrative approach to rehabilitation. From this point of view deep stroking in the area of trigger points simply is not enough. The disadvantage of narrow approach to rehabilitation is transferring active trigger point into latent state instead of its elimination. Unfortunately such transfer felt by the patient as definite improvement but it is temporary fix.

Dr. Ross Turchaninov
Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Dr Turchaninov

I have read your latest article on the TP debate and for me this info reinforces my belief in Ishemic compression thankyou very much.

I too tried to put this to Joe Muscolinoa while back. ( scroll down comment wall)

http://www.massageprofessionals.com/group/joemuscolinotheartandscie...

Like you he still has my greatest respect.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on October 28, 2011 at 9:09am

Stephen, it is great that you are having respect to Joe Muscolinoa,so   do I.the biggest issue that we have to agree or free to disagree, is an issue of adequate trigger point therapy.it is very easy to inhibit active/ acute trigger point,and this inhibition shouldn't be viewed as an  results but potentially  prescription for development of not reversible  pathology. I really appreciate that you spend some time to read our article,where necessity for  an adequate trigger point therapy was stressed specifically and in extended manner. The point is if we will not address  and adequate, trigger point,possible that our client in the future will suffer terribly. Can we consciously afford it?client come to us, trusting us with his/her health, laying on the  table.At this point this is not about our mutual respect, but   conscious   responsibility.I believe that you understand how long it does take to write articles and especially for us, because English isn't our first language.most likely someone thinking that we're doing it to promote our educational stuff. for purpose of promotion one not writing scientific reviews of many pages.in this case,we just  consciously felt the must do.this is nothing to do with to be politically correct,and for this porpoise to agree with everyone.We  always must remember client trust us with his/her health. better not to incorporate trigger point therapy then to do not adequate trigger point therapy,at least in such a case we are not participating in stimulating/initiating pathology development.

Best wishes.

Boris

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Dr Turchaninov

I have read your latest article on the TP debate and for me this info reinforces my belief in Ishemic compression thankyou very much.

I too tried to put this to Joe Muscolinoa while back. ( scroll down comment wall)

http://www.massageprofessionals.com/group/joemuscolinotheartandscie...

Like you he still has my greatest respect.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Therese Schwartz on October 29, 2011 at 8:50pm

Thanks for the interesting posts, everyone!  I haven't checked in on this thread in a while.

 

Boris, I'm glad you made the point that it's better to not to TPT than to do not adequate TPT.  For whatever reason, my school didn't even address TP's.  The closest I get resembles MFR more than TPT, and seems to be very helpful.  I simply don't know enough about TPT to try it.  Your articles are very good but there's only so much I can do!! :)

 

Gary, I'm really glad you are finding use in the energy work.  I totally understand about not pursuing it any further - again, there is only so much we can do!  I use energy work as part of CranioSacral Therapy and get fantastic results.  The better I get, and the more work I get done on myself (very challenging as there is no one within about 100 miles that has the same training!!) the more effective I am with my clients and the more their bodies communicate with me.  I'm even getting to where I get close to the same connection during a massage that I do during CranioSacral Therapy!  It's good stuff.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on October 29, 2011 at 9:33pm

Dear Therese,

For some reason, people who performing  full body stress management massage, in our society considered to be” less important” then one who  knows how to perform orthopedic massage. Once I even published article and stated ,that this is absolutely wrong way to think /to feel , because people dying due to stress-related illnesses, and back/joints  painful disorders affecting significant quality of life etc. but not killing. No doubt that it is good not must but good to know how to perform orthopedic massage, that including equally important, connective tissue mobilization /fascia release special  techniques, trigger points therapy, lymph drainage for lymphedema  size reduction etc. again this is not a shame if one not trained and don't know how to perform orthopedic massage, but to do something that can in the long run harm to our clients is not acceptable. Simple like this. I am assuming that your school never proposed training in orthopedic massage and therefore they didn't teach trigger point therapy. Very  much okay with me and you should be proud of your school. I mean it. I am very proud of you because you doing what you trained to do and do not providing people with trigger point therapy because you never where trained how to do it.

Best wishes.

Boris

 

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