So, is the wolf pack satisfied?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on May 10, 2011 at 9:32am

The site on which I learned about Nocebo has gone "POOF" so cant reference it as I would have liked. 

Grrrrr !  :)

Vlad said:

 

Nice - it's good to see someone actually state that citations should be checked (and Wikipedia can sometimes get it wrong).

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on May 10, 2011 at 10:36am

Stephen.I believe it was very positive and productive to offer this link. Everything what helping us to understand, to learn but for practical use is extremely important.thanks for offering.

Best wishes.

Boris

Stephen Jeffrey said:

The site on which I learned about Nocebo has gone "POOF" so cant reference it as I would have liked. 

Grrrrr !  :)

Vlad said:

 

Nice - it's good to see someone actually state that citations should be checked (and Wikipedia can sometimes get it wrong).

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on May 10, 2011 at 11:11am

you started this discussion under “he is gone”I was in understanding that we will have some opportunities to discuss respectful, professional discussion norms. And was very disappointed when supposedly “discussion norms” topic of discussion began to elevate to the same old, including using YouTube” Pigs can fly” when discussing placebo which is very important to discuss and to learn more on it. Reading this post I was pleasantly surprised that finally we can something to learn from your posts as well  to discuss it. I think he is back, and if would act with respect and contributing like in this post we could be very good friends including mutual respect.

Again I believe that this post contains a lot of educational discussion and would like to contribute my part.

 

You said:  I'll give an example of that - we all know that MTs aren't supposed to diagnose, but I have been told by one (I never let on that I am an MT when I get massages) that they wouldn't be surprised if I had Fibromyalgia.  This was all because I was telling the MT to not use as much pressure on my legs (since they're sensitive).  It's a good job I didn't believe her since I might have developed pain just from the suggestion - possibly.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

my strong belief that this is wrong to do what your MT did.nocebo is powerful exactly like placebo. When Dr. offering diagnose many times A) they can be wrong B) they  using some conventional  diagnoses’s protocols. Despite that this is not legal for us to  diagnose your therapist just should   provide beneficial therapy, that  even in case of fibromyalgia would decrease sensitivity.

On the other hand, when very depressed and scared patients coming to us with establish by Dr. diagnose and we explaining to them that all this symptoms started on level of muscles, and should be treated on this level, at this case most likely placebo prepared to be activated, and then when one providing hands-on beneficial therapy this placebo including hope  will help us to reduce the suffering and to manage this terrible syndrome.

The other part of your post I believe was addressed in this short reply.

Best wishes.

Boris

Vlad said:

Stephen ,

Thanks for giving that link to the nocebo effect.

I often wonder how much that comes into play in our practices too.  I'll give an example of that - we all know that MTs aren't supposed to diagnose, but I have been told by one (I never let on that I am an MT when I get massages) that they wouldn't be surprised if I had Fibromyalgia.  This was all because I was telling the MT to not use as much pressure on my legs (since they're sensitive).  It's a good job I didn't believe her since I might have developed pain just from the suggestion - possibly.

 

Also, as far as the *do anything to try to activate the placebo effect*.  I don't agree with that.  That more or less gives the thumbs up to stating any claim and if the receiver believes it, then there is nothing wrong with that. 

 

I could come up with a new modality that *sounds sciencey*, put out some case reports in some low end journals that like the sound of it and who don't have very high scientific standards, put in some great articles in some massage magazines with a *research has shown*, start selling classes in it to unsuspecting therapists who then *see it work in their practices* (when it's nothing more than a a placebo) and are selling it to a public who then believe that it works (when it's nothing more than a placebo) and the claims around it are all just wrong. The developer of the claims could even believe the claims themselves.

And what if the claims have been around for thousands of years?  So what?

And what if the modality is very popular (everyone believes that *it works* the way it's claimed to work)? So what?

And what if some really smart person who is well respected believes in it? So what?

 

It all still should be checked out against what *good* science says and we should be able to tell the *good* science from the bad.

 

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Vlad on May 10, 2011 at 11:41am

 

Boris,

The *pig's can fly* clip was only meant as a little joke that I thought Laura would probably think was funny.  Also, Laura and I have a mutual appreciation of good Irish whiskey, so it was just for a little fun and nothing else.

 

I appreciate the fact that maybe someone can learn some things from this thread and I have attempted to put in some resources in order to do that in earlier posts. I'm glad that we're in agreement that massage therapists should not say such things (in regard to the Fibromyalgia comment) and that what we communicate could possibly have negative effects. 

 

Yes, sometimes Doctors get it wrong, but very often they get it right too.  If it is *many times* then I doubt that they would be in practice long. Also notable is that some doctors are sending their patients for massage as a means of helping with common mental ailments such as depression and anxiety.  It is just anecdotal, but I have noticed this in my practice.  Also, because physical therapists are very often restricted on what they can work on (time-wise or other such as limitation on how much of the body they can work on), some are also starting to refer more to massage therapists. 

 

As far as the placebo effect coming into play through trust and confidence in the ability of the therapist and their (truthful) communications, yes, I think we're in agreement there.

 

I need to go do stuff here.  I'll probably just pop on here to put on links on the eBook thread every few days or so, so if anyone is wondering where I'm at or that I'm rude for not responding on this thread - it's not on purpose.  I've just got places to be, so I'll be out of touch.

Okey doke.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on May 10, 2011 at 1:50pm

I don't know? Some times medical doctors are wrong more then we think?  I hope you guys can read the two attached files..Interesting.

Vlad said:

 

Boris,

The *pig's can fly* clip was only meant as a little joke that I thought Laura would probably think was funny.  Also, Laura and I have a mutual appreciation of good Irish whiskey, so it was just for a little fun and nothing else.

 

I appreciate the fact that maybe someone can learn some things from this thread and I have attempted to put in some resources in order to do that in earlier posts. I'm glad that we're in agreement that massage therapists should not say such things (in regard to the Fibromyalgia comment) and that what we communicate could possibly have negative effects. 

 

Yes, sometimes Doctors get it wrong, but very often they get it right too.  If it is *many times* then I doubt that they would be in practice long. Also notable is that some doctors are sending their patients for massage as a means of helping with common mental ailments such as depression and anxiety.  It is just anecdotal, but I have noticed this in my practice.  Also, because physical therapists are very often restricted on what they can work on (time-wise or other such as limitation on how much of the body they can work on), some are also starting to refer more to massage therapists. 

 

As far as the placebo effect coming into play through trust and confidence in the ability of the therapist and their (truthful) communications, yes, I think we're in agreement there.

 

I need to go do stuff here.  I'll probably just pop on here to put on links on the eBook thread every few days or so, so if anyone is wondering where I'm at or that I'm rude for not responding on this thread - it's not on purpose.  I've just got places to be, so I'll be out of touch.

Okey doke.

 

Attachments:

• doctors and death rate 1.jpg, 20 KB
• doctors and death rate 2.jpg, 20 KB

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on May 10, 2011 at 4:44pm

Hi Boris

to you, me and I am sure most other therapists also, the easy answere is no we don't have to care if sceince can proove it, because for us our results are obvious. We have (most of the time) the great privilage to witness what is for us undeniable evidence our actions have led to a theraputic outcome for the client.

 

But we do have to care and realize that without sceintific evidence (for placebo, accuppressure technique, etc etc) those people/professional organisations responsible for allocating and funding massage therapy to an unknowing public may find it difficult/imposible to do so. Thats why I donate to  http://www.massagetherapyfoundation.org/ 

 
Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Stephen. 

Most likely when you clicked on proposed link you paid attention that on the top was located the following statement:”

This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it has insufficient inline citations."

 

Meantime we cannot explain no mechanism as well “to settle “ on other linguistic roots. In modern science placebo effect , means that fact of health improvement attributed to this unknown mechanism and not to the researched therapy. From practical point of view I am asking you and others my colleagues :”in case if we know about this phenomenon, and some how activating this mechanism that helping us to achieve even better results, do we care if science cannot explain it???

Best wishes.

Boris

 

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Boris and Gordon

I agree, awareness of how we can positively activate placebo is very important (not something I was ever educated on)

 

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo is another.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Gordon.

the important point is that  during scientific experiments scientists figured out  phenomenon of Placebo. I mean as a result of observation today we know about Placebo  .this  phenomena having extremely powerful healingstimulation mechanism.yet science cannot explain this mechanism.in many different ways this mechanism can be triggered, and I and you and most of other hands-on therapists in different ways activating this great potentials. Yet science didn't explain it and most likely it will take forever.BTW. There is many controversial speculations out there with  attempts to explain it.

at this point we shouldn't really care if mechanism will be not explained scientifically ,and should try to activate it in many of our ways. I am strongly believe and due to my  clinical observation that when one incorporating energy work somehow this mechanism to some degree is starting working as a support to all positive changes that have happened due to soft tissue mobilization.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gordon J. Wallis said:

The interesting thing is that SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THE PLACEBO EFFECT IS REAL.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on May 10, 2011 at 6:17pm

You said:The *pig's can fly* clip was only meant as a little joke that I thought Laura would probably think was funny.  Also, Laura and I have a mutual appreciation of good Irish whiskey, so it was just for a little fun and nothing else..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

I also appreciate Irish whiskey but probably very old fashion, and can not mix jokes when discussing important issues. Honestly my impression was that you comparing placebo phenomenon with *pig's can fly*. Glad to hear that this is not a case.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

 

You said :I appreciate the fact that maybe someone can learn some things from this thread and I have attempted to put in some resources in order to do that in earlier posts. I'm glad that we're in agreement that massage therapists should not say such things (in regard to the Fibromyalgia comment) and that what we communicate could possibly have negative effects. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

I feel good too in this regards. And this is what discussions is about. Thanks.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

you said: Yes, sometimes Doctors get it wrong, but very often they get it right too.  If it is *many times* then I doubt that they would be in practice long.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

in regards of diagnosis of fibromyalgia doctors getting pretty often wrong, by confusing and including chronic fatigue syndrome etc.. algia means pain, and if one suffering from fatigue syndrome with  no pain than one’s diagnosis shouldn't be fibromyalgia. Plus rheumatologists calling fibromyalgia syndrome idiopathic one. In such a case my question is if  they don't know what they  treating should they do it????? If they got to conclusion that this is not inflammatory disorder then why most of them prescribing anti-inflammatory drugs? I know that fibromyalgia syndrome is a fibromyositis and applying hands-on protocol for fibromyositis and getting results in management of this terrible disorder.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

you said :Also notable is that some doctors are sending their patients for massage as a means of helping with common mental ailments such as depression and anxiety.  It is just anecdotal, but I have noticed this in my practice. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

please explain why you think that application of massage therapy in cases of depression and anxiety is anecdotal?

Best wishes.

Boris

Vlad said:

 

Boris,

The *pig's can fly* clip was only meant as a little joke that I thought Laura would probably think was funny.  Also, Laura and I have a mutual appreciation of good Irish whiskey, so it was just for a little fun and nothing else.

 

I appreciate the fact that maybe someone can learn some things from this thread and I have attempted to put in some resources in order to do that in earlier posts. I'm glad that we're in agreement that massage therapists should not say such things (in regard to the Fibromyalgia comment) and that what we communicate could possibly have negative effects. 

 

Yes, sometimes Doctors get it wrong, but very often they get it right too.  If it is *many times* then I doubt that they would be in practice long. Also notable is that some doctors are sending their patients for massage as a means of helping with common mental ailments such as depression and anxiety.  It is just anecdotal, but I have noticed this in my practice.  Also, because physical therapists are very often restricted on what they can work on (time-wise or other such as limitation on how much of the body they can work on), some are also starting to refer more to massage therapists. 

 

As far as the placebo effect coming into play through trust and confidence in the ability of the therapist and their (truthful) communications, yes, I think we're in agreement there.

 

I need to go do stuff here.  I'll probably just pop on here to put on links on the eBook thread every few days or so, so if anyone is wondering where I'm at or that I'm rude for not responding on this thread - it's not on purpose.  I've just got places to be, so I'll be out of touch.

Okey doke.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on May 10, 2011 at 6:55pm

Hi Stephen.You said:to you, me and I am sure most other therapists also, the easy answere is no we don't have to care if sceince can proove it, because for us our results are obvious. We have (most of the time) the great privilage to witness what is for us undeniable evidence our actions have led to a theraputic outcome for the client.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

Absolutely. Massage therapy is about result and not to use science will disadvance us, but disregard clinical observation that supporting theory such as:” body cells carry negative emotional memory” because science don't know where this storages is located and not to address this  body  parts that “ bookmarking”this storages will disadvance us even more. Because if not to address it very difficult to sustain results and no matter in cases of orthopedic disorders, stress management, post event sports massage etc.. You brought Wikipedia link. And most what we can learn from Wikipedia is what we don't know, or cannot explain, but it exist we trying to use it for benefits of other people and to be professional  enough to tell I don't know but it exist. Thanks again for offering this link.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

 

You said:But we do have to care and realize that without sceintific evidence (for placebo, accuppressure technique, etc etc) those people/professional organisations responsible for allocating and funding massage therapy to an unknowing public may find it difficult/imposible to do so. Thats why I donate to  http://www.massagetherapyfoundation.org/ 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

don't want to annoy but will repeat again, I graduated from conventional school, practicing scientifically developed methodology, did participate in  research and even was principal investigator in some of them, I believe in science and very much but never will disregard clinical observation, as well evidence based therapies that are safe and beneficial. Of course continue to donate your money. It is good things to do.BTW. I successfully completed pilot study on role of medical massage  in treatments  of hypertension. I actually repeated existed protocol, but couldn't find money for larger research that would include control group etc. all 55 case presentations that I am proposing on my instructional DVDs is a protocols that developed by scientists for us and most important clinically proven protocols. Maybe it will be good not to waste money to look for some other findings, but to repeat good scales studies that for sure will show real power of massage, as well will allow to establish protocols at US. What do you think on this?

Best wishes.

Boris

 

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Boris

to you, me and I am sure most other therapists also, the easy answere is no we don't have to care if sceince can proove it, because for us our results are obvious. We have (most of the time) the great privilage to witness what is for us undeniable evidence our actions have led to a theraputic outcome for the client.

 

But we do have to care and realize that without sceintific evidence (for placebo, accuppressure technique, etc etc) those people/professional organisations responsible for allocating and funding massage therapy to an unknowing public may find it difficult/imposible to do so. Thats why I donate to  http://www.massagetherapyfoundation.org/ 

 
Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Stephen. 

Most likely when you clicked on proposed link you paid attention that on the top was located the following statement:”

This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it has insufficient inline citations."

 

Meantime we cannot explain no mechanism as well “to settle “ on other linguistic roots. In modern science placebo effect , means that fact of health improvement attributed to this unknown mechanism and not to the researched therapy. From practical point of view I am asking you and others my colleagues :”in case if we know about this phenomenon, and some how activating this mechanism that helping us to achieve even better results, do we care if science cannot explain it???

Best wishes.

Boris

 

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Boris and Gordon

I agree, awareness of how we can positively activate placebo is very important (not something I was ever educated on)

 

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo is another.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Gordon.

the important point is that  during scientific experiments scientists figured out  phenomenon of Placebo. I mean as a result of observation today we know about Placebo  .this  phenomena having extremely powerful healingstimulation mechanism.yet science cannot explain this mechanism.in many different ways this mechanism can be triggered, and I and you and most of other hands-on therapists in different ways activating this great potentials. Yet science didn't explain it and most likely it will take forever.BTW. There is many controversial speculations out there with  attempts to explain it.

at this point we shouldn't really care if mechanism will be not explained scientifically ,and should try to activate it in many of our ways. I am strongly believe and due to my  clinical observation that when one incorporating energy work somehow this mechanism to some degree is starting working as a support to all positive changes that have happened due to soft tissue mobilization.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gordon J. Wallis said:

The interesting thing is that SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THE PLACEBO EFFECT IS REAL.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on May 11, 2011 at 2:23pm

Hi Boris

have you tried to get funds for a larger study from the MTF ?  

 New studies or repeat studies, I really don't know one way or the other how grants are allocated or to whom or if the money is well spent, on this I can only trust my feeling = yes this is the right thing to do.

Other than that, we can only do our best to get the word out, and some people are very organised (like yourself) at promoting the protocols they consider work best US or worldwide.

Getting the word out.

I once had the idea to set up  clinics within a large national news paper employing 1,000 people. I would ask the sceintific/health reporters to design a study or even multiple studies to which all the staff and therapists would be blind.

Maybe results would not meet this or that sceintific criteria (peer reviewed etc ) but at least getting the word out   as written by their reporters personal experiences would then go direct to the masses via their readership.

What do you think Boris. 

 

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Stephen.You said:to you, me and I am sure most other therapists also, the easy answere is no we don't have to care if sceince can proove it, because for us our results are obvious. We have (most of the time) the great privilage to witness what is for us undeniable evidence our actions have led to a theraputic outcome for the client.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

Absolutely. Massage therapy is about result and not to use science will disadvance us, but disregard clinical observation that supporting theory such as:” body cells carry negative emotional memory” because science don't know where this storages is located and not to address this  body  parts that “ bookmarking”this storages will disadvance us even more. Because if not to address it very difficult to sustain results and no matter in cases of orthopedic disorders, stress management, post event sports massage etc.. You brought Wikipedia link. And most what we can learn from Wikipedia is what we don't know, or cannot explain, but it exist we trying to use it for benefits of other people and to be professional  enough to tell I don't know but it exist. Thanks again for offering this link.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

 

You said:But we do have to care and realize that without sceintific evidence (for placebo, accuppressure technique, etc etc) those people/professional organisations responsible for allocating and funding massage therapy to an unknowing public may find it difficult/imposible to do so. Thats why I donate to  http://www.massagetherapyfoundation.org/ 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

don't want to annoy but will repeat again, I graduated from conventional school, practicing scientifically developed methodology, did participate in  research and even was principal investigator in some of them, I believe in science and very much but never will disregard clinical observation, as well evidence based therapies that are safe and beneficial. Of course continue to donate your money. It is good things to do.BTW. I successfully completed pilot study on role of medical massage  in treatments  of hypertension. I actually repeated existed protocol, but couldn't find money for larger research that would include control group etc. all 55 case presentations that I am proposing on my instructional DVDs is a protocols that developed by scientists for us and most important clinically proven protocols. Maybe it will be good not to waste money to look for some other findings, but to repeat good scales studies that for sure will show real power of massage, as well will allow to establish protocols at US. What do you think on this?

Best wishes.

Boris

 

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Boris

to you, me and I am sure most other therapists also, the easy answere is no we don't have to care if sceince can proove it, because for us our results are obvious. We have (most of the time) the great privilage to witness what is for us undeniable evidence our actions have led to a theraputic outcome for the client.

 

But we do have to care and realize that without sceintific evidence (for placebo, accuppressure technique, etc etc) those people/professional organisations responsible for allocating and funding massage therapy to an unknowing public may find it difficult/imposible to do so. Thats why I donate to  http://www.massagetherapyfoundation.org/ 

 
Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Stephen. 

Most likely when you clicked on proposed link you paid attention that on the top was located the following statement:”

This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it has insufficient inline citations."

 

Meantime we cannot explain no mechanism as well “to settle “ on other linguistic roots. In modern science placebo effect , means that fact of health improvement attributed to this unknown mechanism and not to the researched therapy. From practical point of view I am asking you and others my colleagues :”in case if we know about this phenomenon, and some how activating this mechanism that helping us to achieve even better results, do we care if science cannot explain it???

Best wishes.

Boris

 

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Boris and Gordon

I agree, awareness of how we can positively activate placebo is very important (not something I was ever educated on)

 

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo is another.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Gordon.

the important point is that  during scientific experiments scientists figured out  phenomenon of Placebo. I mean as a result of observation today we know about Placebo  .this  phenomena having extremely powerful healingstimulation mechanism.yet science cannot explain this mechanism.in many different ways this mechanism can be triggered, and I and you and most of other hands-on therapists in different ways activating this great potentials. Yet science didn't explain it and most likely it will take forever.BTW. There is many controversial speculations out there with  attempts to explain it.

at this point we shouldn't really care if mechanism will be not explained scientifically ,and should try to activate it in many of our ways. I am strongly believe and due to my  clinical observation that when one incorporating energy work somehow this mechanism to some degree is starting working as a support to all positive changes that have happened due to soft tissue mobilization.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gordon J. Wallis said:

The interesting thing is that SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THE PLACEBO EFFECT IS REAL.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on May 11, 2011 at 7:08pm

Hi Stephen.

You said:have you tried to get funds for a larger study from the MTF ?  

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

Several years ago I wrote few e-mails to MTF proposing to do so. Didn't hear  back.

As like in any organization there is probably certain way how to communicate and I am not good in it. You want to volunteer for communication???LOL

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

you said: New studies or repeat studies, I really don't know one way or the other how grants are allocated or to whom or if the money is well spent, on this I can only trust my feeling = yes this is the right thing to do.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

in my opinion there is no such a thing like new study or repeat study. It have to be good study with  beautiful clinical outcome including very clear and respectful paper.

When research group publishing paper, it have to be   produced  in the way that everyone, and not only at USA, but in any other country will be able to learn this proposed protocols. In regards of  grants. There is people with expertise to write  grants. Few years ago I tried to work with one, was a waste of money. Of course it's possible to do but looks like I am not really capable to do it. Usually you do repeat study just in case if you don't like something in already developed protocol, or when one believe it can be significant improvement.

BTW. Myself and Ross TurchaninovMD.Phd  did try to do few important studies, such as

to develop protocols for peripheral artery diseases(PAD) Including thromboangiitis obliterans . I even spend little time at  Beverly Hills vascular laboratory. What actually this experiment was is that we took measurement PVR data from two persons lets say from  left leg.PVR reflecting quantity of blood supply. Then for 20 minutes I massaged right leg and then we again took measurements, PVR was taking and was show a significant increase of amount of blood supply to the not massaged leg. What does it mean, that one after surgery or fracture, severe injuries with some partial tears etc. if would be provided by massage of healthy leg, the healing process would be speed up significant, would be reduced chance for infections, costly hospitalization time would be shorter. Again this protocol wasn't developed by me but many many years ago, first was researched and proposed by Russian professor Zabludovsky. With Olympian teams this was mandatory protocol to implement starting in a frame of few days after  surgery, injury, fractures etc. It gave tremendous speed up of healing. Just sharing what could  happene if we could find money for research. But one day it will happen. I believe in it.

BTW. All this  protocols can be learned from my DVDs as well from Dr.Ross’ books.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

 

You said:Other than that, we can only do our best to get the word out, and some people are very organised (like yourself) at promoting the protocols they consider work best US or worldwide.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

Absolutely. We will do our best. In any case in the last 20 years our industry improved a lot and continue to do so.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

you said :Getting the word out.

I once had the idea to set up  clinics within a large national news paper employing 1,000 people. I would ask the sceintific/health reporters to design a study or even multiple studies to which all the staff and therapists would be blind.

Maybe results would not meet this or that sceintific criteria (peer reviewed etc ) but at least getting the word out   as written by their reporters personal experiences would then go direct to the masses via their readership.

What do you think Boris. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

I believe this is a very good idea. Of course you will be not able to publish some conclusions,but clinical observations outcomes will  be obvious to report. Of course each of these reporters must to receive at least 15 treatments on twice per week basis .also they have to fill out subjective questionery before treatments will start and after 15 treatments. I would recommend to use subjective scales from 0 to 10. And include following questions:

1. how would you describe your level of stress, including anxieties, tension headaches etc.

2.please describe quality of your sleep the best  is 10.

3.Please describe your mood and energy level.

4.Please describe intensity of muscular aches and tensions.

This would be enough. Of course this is confidential information, and you would ask these people to feel out this paper before and after 15 treatments, and then not to show you, to keep it but after treatments just in general to write how 15 treatments contributed to their well-being. Good idea. On my DVD#6 I am teaching protocols in sitting position (could be done with no massage chair ) at office setting. If you will go for it and will organize enough therapists, I will donate this DVDs to learn from. It includes not only neck and  upper back mobilizations but also extremities massage in sitting position utilizing old Chinese methodology  to massage on silk .

Best wishes.

Boris

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on May 11, 2011 at 8:39pm

Just this one comment re: the personal smear directed at me.  FYI, the reference to momma was not by any stretch an insult aimed at chris' mother; it wasn't even an insult aimed at chris himself.  It was a reference to chris' youth, given in response when he made an obvious personal put-down of me.   Leave me alone, Ravensara, and I will leave you alone;attack, I will reciprocate.

 

Ravensara Travillian said:

About the only thing I haven't heard insulted on this site is someones momma...and that could just be a matter of time.

 

Well, actually, Ty, Gary considers referring to when Chris' mother "lost her pills 30 years ago" appropriate professional discourse, so even that's been done here.

 

Thank you and Choice and Vlad for standing up to bullying behavior, but I agree with Chris and Choice--life's too short to repeat an experience as boring as junior high dynamics in the name of anti-knowledge.

 

Ty said:

Okay - here's my response: When I joined this site the big "skeptical about energy work" thread (over 600 replies I believe) was going full force.  I believed full tilt in energy work at the time and jumped in both feet with my opinion.  For those not around then this was quite the lively discussion.  While there was considerable disagreement about this subject everyone remained civil for the most part.  I don't recall nasty name calling, credential checking or extreme bullying.  Well times have changed - our manners have become poorer, our passion about our work and our beliefs has become abusive.  I've learned this site is cyclical - same,same,same, hmmm..a bit boring and then Wham! Someone lights a fire with a topic and rather than listening to each other we now start a verbal fist fight.  About the only thing I haven't heard insulted on this site is someones momma...and that could just be a matter of time.

This site for me used to be about meeting other therapists and hearing their opinions.  I appreciate diversity, I appreciate passion, I appreciate that people are willing to share their experience and knowledge with all on these pages.  If people with differing opinions, with different experiences, different levels of education are subjected to bullying and name calling then this is not the mbp that I want to experience and you might notice that with over 8,000 members only a small percentage post.

At this point I would like to see this site as a source that continues to make me think, research, study and occasionally have a laugh. 

This part is for Chris -  Thank You.  You have caused me re-evaluate some of my beliefs and you, along with others, have made me realize I needed to research more what I "was" telling my clients.  I appreciate education along with experience Dr. Moyer and you have helped add to my education even if I was kicking and screaming at the time.  I also learned you can be a funny guy......:)

It was posted once when Rosemary left "it was our loss".  This applies again.

Ty (also known as Terry Capuano,NCTMB)

 

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Vlad on May 12, 2011 at 9:24am

 

Why are people still directing posts at Dearie Raven, the cold clinician?  (It's ironic that she was referred to as *cold* I think she's a very warm and caring person since I've met her and I have talked to her quite a bit).  Are people trying to get that last *dig in*?  Sorry guys, she won't respond - she's got better things to do with her time than subject herself to the harassment she got on here.

Gary, just for an FYI, Chris the donkey is quite a bit older than 30.  Not that it would matter since age shouldn't matter.  Ignorance doesn't necessarily decrease with age. 

I hope you all are having a good week!

Vlad (the Denier)

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