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So, is the wolf pack satisfied?
You've driven him off. The Wolf Pack can celebrate.
But before you all start shaking each others paws (or doing whatever else - Pulp Fiction fans can smile at The Wolf reference ) there's something that I'll say about that.
First off, I'm amazed that he stuck around so long. In fact, it occured to me today that the arguments against him keep repeating over and over and over, it's a wonder he didn't bail way before now.
To recap the arguments put to him:
1. Who is he to be an authority?
He repeatedly said he isn't. Any scientist would say that there is not authority in science. But apparently some people on here *need* authority figures.
2. He is against energy work (and therefore is regarded as the Devil incarnate).
He has an opinion on it, he expressed it, he gave his reasons for his opinion and time and time again he is regarded as the Anti-Christ for having that opinion, which have been formed from what he knows from the data provided by science. Apparently his opinion on it resonated through every thread, even when the threads were initially on a subject that had nothing to do with energy work - he was hounded for it.
3. He is narrow-minded because of his opinion on energy work
This one blows my mind. He has contributed a lot to massage therapy research (even though some who are obviously not familiar with his work would argue that point) and he has never been thanked for it by anyone on this site (If I'm wrong correct me) This "narrow-minded argument" has been thrown at him when it is blatantly obvious that the ones throwing the argument have made no attempt to understand why he has reached his conclusions. If there was any attempt to do that, meaningful discussions besides "Science isn't there yet" and the same ol' weak arguments wouldn't have been popping up again and again. And people not understanding *why* the "science isn't there yet* argument and those other ones are weak is pretty clear. It amazes me that this total lack of an attempt to understand another person's point of view and why they have reached it can be held by any massage therapist. I had thought that we were empathetic people and the basis of empathy is understanding. But apparently I was wrong.
4. A new one thrown at him was that science and engineering are not the same. As an ex-software engineer who has a Masters in Computer Science I can say that before I knew the guy that you've just forced out, I didn't know the difference between external and internal validity and it's importance in the linkage between cause and effect. After being aware of my ignorance he pointed me towards the right books (both he and Kim Goral did this, who has probably given up on this site too) to get myself a bit more educated. He gets tackled on some study that was slammed because it didn't reflect the real world and he had mentioned internal validity. The discussion could have been about that, but no, it didn't reflect what we wanted to see and it didn't tell us what we wanted to hear, he brought up internal validity and that was it - slam him.
Anyway, back to the engineer/science poke (on which there could be a debate, but who really cares?) This ex-engineer can state that there's a big difference between unveiling nature and using patterns from nature to build. The latter is easier. It's logical and good - it can be replicated, it's easily testable and it's much more easily critiqued. That's because the human element is taken out. But that's just an opinion and if anyone tackles me on it, I don't care. Opinions are like brown orifices - facts and data are quite nice some of the time.
I'm sure there are other things that I could bring up here, but there's probably no point. Those ones are the main ones. I've learned a lot from him - it's a pity others couldn't see the benefit from him being on here.
Anyway, I'd just like to say that before anyone regards him leaving here as a victory and "Yay for us - we win!", I'd just like to say that yes, it is a victory - a victory for ignorance, intolerance and a lack of understanding.
Way to go.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
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Gawd that kind of stuff is so irritating. What a bunch of b*******(foot bath things). But I guess it happens because people aren't getting satisfactory results from scientifically based western medicine. Gosh I'm a massage therapist in a spa.. And people I don't even know, come into see me asking all kinds of medical questions wanting me to help them? lol And the other weird thing is, often times I do? lol Sometimes I feel like Im surrounded by b*******. From chiropractors doing that foot bath thing, to medical doctors preforming unnecessary surgery. I remember not too long ago I had a client that was scheduled for carpal tunnel surgery. .She just came in on a gift certificate she received for a spa massage. I checked her arm out, and told her that she didnt have carpal tunnel. .She had sore muscles in the extensors of her forearm(trigger points). She told me that the doctor said ,the surgery might not work(duh). Anyway, after one massage session she had great relief. I showed her how to treat herself. She left smiling ,and canceled her surgery. So people are desperate to get well.. And because of that. Those chiropractors near you can get away with that b*******.. Its a sad situation when a spa massage therapist offers better better service then an orthopedic surgeon, yet can lose clients to an ionic foot bath touting chiropractor. I'm constantly irritated when I think about the situation. For me, It's best not to think on these things.. Anyway, I just keep massaging people.
Vlad said
No one is saying it isn't.
Does that mean that the claims that we make can then become *valid*?
If someone feels better after using one of those silly foot bath things, is it OK to tell them a bunch of rubbish in order to get them to purchase a session?
Two chiropractors within 2 miles of my practice have *big fancy* ionic foot baths. Their patients believe them because they're doctors. In fact, I bet the placebo effect is even enhanced because of the fact that a *doctor* has told them rubbish. Does that make it all OK?
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Permalink Reply by Vlad on
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Hey man,
I don't view it as a great thing either - but there are some good chiros out there too and I'm sure some of them aren't too thrilled about the fact that people in their profession are selling such claims and treatments. Also, if the placebo effect coming into play, then really, is there much difference between what is going on in that profession over what is going on in our industry? The main difference that I can see is that the ones selling the claims probably know it's nothing more than a placebo, whereas in our profession the word placebo is rarely mentioned in any classroom.
I think people might view the words "placebo" and "placebo effect" as a bad thing, and I've got to admit that I'm still getting my head around it, but I at least have to admit that it comes into play in my (and every other therapist's) practice. And more so, I believe that it is amplified when there is a strong therapeutic relationship, which most of us have the opportunity to cultivate in our practices.
If you think about the therapeutic relationship, on the one hand you have trust and confidence from our clients directed to us (the therapist). And going the other direction, we have focus, intention, empathy, compassion and our skills which we have developed (and hopefully continue to do so) to the best of our ability. But there is something else that goes both ways in the therapeutic relationship and that is the truth. In the same way that we expect our clients to be totally truthful about their medical condition, they expect us to be telling the truth in our claims - as best we know how to decipher it. So going back to our list that we give to our clients, one of which is the development of skills - one of those skills which very few of us are equipped with is the skill to be able to evaluate claims well. Sure, we can go by what we see in our practices and by what we're told in the classroom, but if we're really concerned about the truth, then why not equip ourselves with more skills that can help us find the truth (even though some might find it *boring* - I don't, but it took me out of my comfort zone when I first decided to do something about my ignorance)? One of the ways we can do that is by becoming research literate and seeing what science says - while also being aware of the fact that there is a lot of info out there that has the trappings of science that needs to be critically appraised and identified as such.
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I'm total agreement. And thats why I rarely hang out socially with other massage therapists..Because inevitably I will hear someone say something thats not true. If I do..I have to force myself not to respond.. Or it will end up much like the muscle memory personal insulting thread that still permeates this site.. lol The word that got censored in my last statement was another word for bull poop. lol Ok, gotta go to work... PS- Ive been doing massage work for 26 years, and up until recently I viewed the placebo effect as a negative , and would use it as an argument against things like the foot bath thing.. But now I realize it is real, and I can use that to the benefit of my clients... It has invigorated my business. I always have made a living doing this. But its booming now for me. The spa begged me to stay late tonight because someone with a headache wants to see me. I hope I can help that person? Damn that foot bath thing is irritating.
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Permalink Reply by Laura Allen on
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Maybe they had some Bushmill's in with their slop! LOL
Vlad said:
Pigs can fly.
I saw it on the internet, therefore it's real.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_WWbWBRV-c
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Uhm, read my reply to systems science thinking in anatomy. ..thats how Ive used the placebo effect in a good way. I use it as much as possible now.
Vlad said:Hey man,
I don't view it as a great thing either - but there are some good chiros out there too and I'm sure some of them aren't too thrilled about the fact that people in their profession are selling such claims and treatments. Also, if the placebo effect coming into play, then really, is there much difference between what is going on in that profession over what is going on in our industry? The main difference that I can see is that the ones selling the claims probably know it's nothing more than a placebo, whereas in our profession the word placebo is rarely mentioned in any classroom.
I think people might view the words "placebo" and "placebo effect" as a bad thing, and I've got to admit that I'm still getting my head around it, but I at least have to admit that it comes into play in my (and every other therapist's) practice. And more so, I believe that it is amplified when there is a strong therapeutic relationship, which most of us have the opportunity to cultivate in our practices.
If you think about the therapeutic relationship, on the one hand you have trust and confidence from our clients directed to us (the therapist). And going the other direction, we have focus, intention, empathy, compassion and our skills which we have developed (and hopefully continue to do so) to the best of our ability. But there is something else that goes both ways in the therapeutic relationship and that is the truth. In the same way that we expect our clients to be totally truthful about their medical condition, they expect us to be telling the truth in our claims - as best we know how to decipher it. So going back to our list that we give to our clients, one of which is the development of skills - one of those skills which very few of us are equipped with is the skill to be able to evaluate claims well. Sure, we can go by what we see in our practices and by what we're told in the classroom, but if we're really concerned about the truth, then why not equip ourselves with more skills that can help us find the truth (even though some might find it *boring* - I don't, but it took me out of my comfort zone when I first decided to do something about my ignorance)? One of the ways we can do that is by becoming research literate and seeing what science says - while also being aware of the fact that there is a lot of info out there that has the trappings of science that needs to be critically appraised and identified as such.
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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Hi Gordon.
the important point is that during scientific experiments scientists figured out phenomenon of Placebo. I mean as a result of observation today we know about Placebo .this phenomena having extremely powerful healingstimulation mechanism.yet science cannot explain this mechanism.in many different ways this mechanism can be triggered, and I and you and most of other hands-on therapists in different ways activating this great potentials. Yet science didn't explain it and most likely it will take forever.BTW. There is many controversial speculations out there with attempts to explain it.
at this point we shouldn't really care if mechanism will be not explained scientifically ,and should try to activate it in many of our ways. I am strongly believe and due to my clinical observation that when one incorporating energy work somehow this mechanism to some degree is starting working as a support to all positive changes that have happened due to soft tissue mobilization.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:The interesting thing is that SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THE PLACEBO EFFECT IS REAL.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on
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I help my clients when other methods have failed them. If science can help me do that even better, I am grateful. If science does not help me do it better, I still help my clients. In Asian Bodywork there is no separation of physical hands on from energetic work. In talking with several founders of modalities they have said they do both together. However it is defined or analyzed Bodywork is an effective way of reducing pain, increasing mobility, decreasing debilitating effects of illness, and improving over all well being. Simply put it helps people feel better with little risk, making hands on bodywork worth being a part of people's lives whether performed by self, family members or a professional.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on
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Hi Boris and Gordon
I agree, awareness of how we can positively activate placebo is very important (not something I was ever educated on)
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo is another.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Gordon.
the important point is that during scientific experiments scientists figured out phenomenon of Placebo. I mean as a result of observation today we know about Placebo .this phenomena having extremely powerful healingstimulation mechanism.yet science cannot explain this mechanism.in many different ways this mechanism can be triggered, and I and you and most of other hands-on therapists in different ways activating this great potentials. Yet science didn't explain it and most likely it will take forever.BTW. There is many controversial speculations out there with attempts to explain it.
at this point we shouldn't really care if mechanism will be not explained scientifically ,and should try to activate it in many of our ways. I am strongly believe and due to my clinical observation that when one incorporating energy work somehow this mechanism to some degree is starting working as a support to all positive changes that have happened due to soft tissue mobilization.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:The interesting thing is that SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THE PLACEBO EFFECT IS REAL.
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absolutely agree with you Daniel.
in different words I will extend my reply to you when will address Steven's post.
Best wishes.Boris
Daniel Cohen said:
I help my clients when other methods have failed them. If science can help me do that even better, I am grateful. If science does not help me do it better, I still help my clients. In Asian Bodywork there is no separation of physical hands on from energetic work. In talking with several founders of modalities they have said they do both together. However it is defined or analyzed Bodywork is an effective way of reducing pain, increasing mobility, decreasing debilitating effects of illness, and improving over all well being. Simply put it helps people feel better with little risk, making hands on bodywork worth being a part of people's lives whether performed by self, family members or a professional.
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Stephen ,
Thanks for giving that link to the nocebo effect.
I often wonder how much that comes into play in our practices too. I'll give an example of that - we all know that MTs aren't supposed to diagnose, but I have been told by one (I never let on that I am an MT when I get massages) that they wouldn't be surprised if I had Fibromyalgia. This was all because I was telling the MT to not use as much pressure on my legs (since they're sensitive). It's a good job I didn't believe her since I might have developed pain just from the suggestion - possibly.
Also, as far as the *do anything to try to activate the placebo effect*. I don't agree with that. That more or less gives the thumbs up to stating any claim and if the receiver believes it, then there is nothing wrong with that.
I could come up with a new modality that *sounds sciencey*, put out some case reports in some low end journals that like the sound of it and who don't have very high scientific standards, put in some great articles in some massage magazines with a *research has shown*, start selling classes in it to unsuspecting therapists who then *see it work in their practices* (when it's nothing more than a a placebo) and are selling it to a public who then believe that it works (when it's nothing more than a placebo) and the claims around it are all just wrong. The developer of the claims could even believe the claims themselves.
And what if the claims have been around for thousands of years? So what?
And what if the modality is very popular (everyone believes that *it works* the way it's claimed to work)? So what?
And what if some really smart person who is well respected believes in it? So what?
It all still should be checked out against what *good* science says and we should be able to tell the *good* science from the bad.
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Hi Stephen.
Most likely when you clicked on proposed link you paid attention that on the top was located the following statement:”
This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it has insufficient inline citations."
Meantime we cannot explain no mechanism as well “to settle “ on other linguistic roots. In modern science placebo effect , means that fact of health improvement attributed to this unknown mechanism and not to the researched therapy. From practical point of view I am asking you and others my colleagues :”in case if we know about this phenomenon, and some how activating this mechanism that helping us to achieve even better results, do we care if science cannot explain it???
Best wishes.
Boris
Stephen Jeffrey said:
Hi Boris and Gordon
I agree, awareness of how we can positively activate placebo is very important (not something I was ever educated on)
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo is another.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Gordon.
the important point is that during scientific experiments scientists figured out phenomenon of Placebo. I mean as a result of observation today we know about Placebo .this phenomena having extremely powerful healingstimulation mechanism.yet science cannot explain this mechanism.in many different ways this mechanism can be triggered, and I and you and most of other hands-on therapists in different ways activating this great potentials. Yet science didn't explain it and most likely it will take forever.BTW. There is many controversial speculations out there with attempts to explain it.
at this point we shouldn't really care if mechanism will be not explained scientifically ,and should try to activate it in many of our ways. I am strongly believe and due to my clinical observation that when one incorporating energy work somehow this mechanism to some degree is starting working as a support to all positive changes that have happened due to soft tissue mobilization.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:The interesting thing is that SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THE PLACEBO EFFECT IS REAL.
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