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The Massage Therapy Alliance of America - A New Alliance For Therapists!
We are so excited for Massage Therapists!!! But, instead of re-explaining it here, go to the source at http://www.mtaamassage.org
Some of the debate that will take place on this topic will be heated. If opposing sides discussing issues is not your cup of tea, just visit the website. FYI!
Views: 521
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on
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Here we go again. Mike, what is your definition? That's not good enough for me....
Nite guys!!!
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Permalink Reply by Emmanuel Bistas on
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When I first read about the Alliance I thought... "hmm.. another organization"..
After following this discussion though, I think you are onto something big Mike! Of the two associations, ABMP has consistently been closer to the beat of massage therapists than AMTA, but does not have local chapters. AMTA has local chapters but has completely disenfranchised its members by being out of touch with reality (by the way, how many in the AMTA national office are MTs?)
There is Alliance for MT Education, there is National Certification board for setting standards, but really there is no organized movement among massage therapists to fight for massage therapists rights. Especially when you consider the proposals of certain people to change the core of what MTs do (talk about conflict of interest!) I think the ground is ripe for another organization. I hope it has local chapters. If it does, let me know how I can help.
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Permalink Reply by Ravensara Travillian on
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"Especially when you consider the proposals of certain people to change the core of what MTs do (talk about conflict of interest!)"
To quote the great Señor Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Where is the conflict of interest in MTs advocating for more responsibility and better education for themselves?
Can you show us a direct connection where MTs advocating for professionalism gives someone an immediate opportunity to gain financially? A hypothetical increase in income somewhere someday is not a conflict of interest; this is Professional Ethics 101 material.
On the other hand, a direct co-location linkage between a non-profit organization, and a for-profit event owned by the same person who organized the non-profit, and who is conducting operations in absolute secrecy, is rife with opportunities for direct financial and influence conflict of interest.
No one is saying that Mike is definitely acting with impropriety. While the opportunity for conflict of interest is clearly and obviously there, no one has said he is actually profiting from MTAA. It is the continued refusal to conduct operations transparently, and to make a clear distinction between the festival and the organization, that has people rightly asking questions about what is being done to address the potential for conflict of interest here. Dismissing them as having "trust issues" and claiming their motivations are impure, is not how an organization conducts itself professionally.
Meanwhile, you have implied that MTs acting in good faith to address problems they perceive in massage therapy have a conflict of interest. That is a serious accusation.
There are only two choices here: either you know what "conflict of interest" means, or you don't.
If you don't know what it means, you should apologize for saying such a grossly inappropriate thing inadvertently.
If you do know what it means, then you know that what you call a conflict of interest really isn't, and you are simply arguing in bad faith.
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Thank you for your volunteerism. I have created something different. I will have more details soon. Thanks.
Emmanuel Bistas said:When I first read about the Alliance I thought... "hmm.. another organization"..
After following this discussion though, I think you are onto something big Mike! Of the two associations, ABMP has consistently been closer to the beat of massage therapists than AMTA, but does not have local chapters. AMTA has local chapters but has completely disenfranchised its members by being out of touch with reality (by the way, how many in the AMTA national office are MTs?)
There is Alliance for MT Education, there is National Certification board for setting standards, but really there is no organized movement among massage therapists to fight for massage therapists rights. Especially when you consider the proposals of certain people to change the core of what MTs do (talk about conflict of interest!) I think the ground is ripe for another organization. I hope it has local chapters. If it does, let me know how I can help.
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Thank you for explaining that. There is no finances in action, in anyway until after we have already, left the Festival and a meeting of the BOD and an amount for membership is created. There is no way, I gain. If people are upset, because others may attend the Festival and attend classes to help their education, again that is a side benefit for both. But I have already been told my list of reasons for this is weak right so it will be minimal, right?
There is no perfect date, place or situation for all to be happy. All I can do is have the election and then let the Alliance carry on. Is there opportunity to take advantage of folks? I am sure one could find a way. There is no way to close every avenue or make you believe whatever will do that. All I can do is what I am and that's it.
Ravensara Travillian said:"Especially when you consider the proposals of certain people to change the core of what MTs do (talk about conflict of interest!)"
To quote the great Señor Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Where is the conflict of interest in MTs advocating for more responsibility and better education for themselves?
Can you show us a direct connection where MTs advocating for professionalism gives someone an immediate opportunity to gain financially? A hypothetical increase in income somewhere someday is not a conflict of interest; this is Professional Ethics 101 material.
On the other hand, a direct co-location linkage between a non-profit organization, and a for-profit event owned by the same person who organized the non-profit, and who is conducting operations in absolute secrecy, is rife with opportunities for direct financial and influence conflict of interest.
No one is saying that Mike is definitely acting with impropriety. While the opportunity for conflict of interest is clearly and obviously there, no one has said he is actually profiting from MTAA. It is the continued refusal to conduct operations transparently, and to make a clear distinction between the festival and the organization, that has people rightly asking questions about what is being done to address the potential for conflict of interest here. Dismissing them as having "trust issues" and claiming their motivations are impure, is not how an organization conducts itself professionally.
Meanwhile, you have implied that MTs acting in good faith to address problems they perceive in massage therapy have a conflict of interest. That is a serious accusation.
There are only two choices here: either you know what "conflict of interest" means, or you don't.
If you don't know what it means, you should apologize for saying such a grossly inappropriate thing inadvertently.
If you do know what it means, then you know that what you call a conflict of interest really isn't, and you are simply arguing in bad faith.
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Will the festival and the organization continue to be linked after memberships become paid? Do you have a transition plan to ensure that potential conflicts of interest, not only now, but in the future as well, between a non-profit organization and a for-profit event are addressed?
Will you be soliciting donations for the organizations from MTs in the future? I trust you will be actively making clear to potential members and donors the distinction between non-profit and tax-deductible, since if this is just starting up now, you will not have had time to follow the IRS process, and thus cannot yet have achieved tax-exempt status.
Are you planning to apply to the IRS for tax-exempt status, so that later on, people can make donations to your organization and deduct it from their taxes? Because if so, we are doing you a huge favor, whether you realize it or not.
If you think the questions from potential members here are hard, you will be in for quite a shock when you apply to the IRS for tax-exempt status. Compared to their process, the questions here are softballs. And they will take a cold, hard, jaded look at the linkage between a non-profit organization and a for-profit event. You want to make sure that you are not only cleaner than Caesar's wife, but also that you can prove you are, if you want to take your organization to that step.
Of course, if you're not planning to apply for tax-exempt status, that's fine, too, as long as you make potential donors aware they cannot deduct it from their taxes. You don't want to get any donors in trouble with the IRS.
Mike Hinkle said:
Thank you for explaining that. There is no finances in action, in anyway until after we have already, left the Festival and a meeting of the BOD and an amount for membership is created. There is no way, I gain. If people are upset, because others may attend the Festival and attend classes to help their education, again that is a side benefit for both. But I have already been told my list of reasons for this is weak right so it will be minimal, right?
There is no perfect date, place or situation for all to be happy. All I can do is have the election and then let the Alliance carry on. Is there opportunity to take advantage of folks? I am sure one could find a way. There is no way to close every avenue or make you believe whatever will do that. All I can do is what I am and that's it.
Ravensara Travillian said:
"Especially when you consider the proposals of certain people to change the core of what MTs do (talk about conflict of interest!)"
To quote the great Señor Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Where is the conflict of interest in MTs advocating for more responsibility and better education for themselves?
Can you show us a direct connection where MTs advocating for professionalism gives someone an immediate opportunity to gain financially? A hypothetical increase in income somewhere someday is not a conflict of interest; this is Professional Ethics 101 material.
On the other hand, a direct co-location linkage between a non-profit organization, and a for-profit event owned by the same person who organized the non-profit, and who is conducting operations in absolute secrecy, is rife with opportunities for direct financial and influence conflict of interest.
No one is saying that Mike is definitely acting with impropriety. While the opportunity for conflict of interest is clearly and obviously there, no one has said he is actually profiting from MTAA. It is the continued refusal to conduct operations transparently, and to make a clear distinction between the festival and the organization, that has people rightly asking questions about what is being done to address the potential for conflict of interest here. Dismissing them as having "trust issues" and claiming their motivations are impure, is not how an organization conducts itself professionally.
Meanwhile, you have implied that MTs acting in good faith to address problems they perceive in massage therapy have a conflict of interest. That is a serious accusation.
There are only two choices here: either you know what "conflict of interest" means, or you don't.
If you don't know what it means, you should apologize for saying such a grossly inappropriate thing inadvertently.
If you do know what it means, then you know that what you call a conflict of interest really isn't, and you are simply arguing in bad faith.
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Hi Ravensara,
I started not to answer this when I saw you too were not really vested in this conversation as you are not eligible to even be a member living outside the US in Europe. But you may move back, so I will take the time to answer your questions.
As a way for me to show support to the Alliance, the Festival will offer a free meeting room to the Alliance for their annual meeting each year. But, the BOD of the Alliance will have sole control over wether or not they accept that. The BOD will determine where and when their annual meetings will be held.
We have made this same offer many times to other organizations since 2009. In 2009, the TX AMTA chapter and the Texas Association of Massage Therapists both held their annual meetings at the Festival. Both organizations are non-profit. This proximity helped both organizations begin to work together for what they wanted to see happen in Texas.In 2011, the Nurse Association of Massage Therapists will hold their annual meeting at the Festival. In 2012, the NV AMTA chapter is talking about holding some events at Festival. This has helped those chapters save money by the Festival providing the chapter with a meeting room and the availability of CEs without the chapter needing to spend their money for their annual meetings. The Festival works for and does benefit the massage community. If the intent was to hurt other associations, we would not be extending our hand to help.
I am not creating an association to be in "competition" with AMTA and ABMP. I am creating an Alliance to assist all of massage. The Alliance will be an alternative voice for those who may be a member of either, both or neither of these associations. The only requirement for membership is that members are working within the legal parameters set by the state in which they practice. Period.
I will NOT run for any office on the BOD. I incorporated the Alliance, but will be turning it over completely to the new BOD upon their election. In addition, I am giving the Massage Therapy Hall of Fame to the new Alliance after the initial election of officers. From then on, it will be up to the Alliance to nominate and induct members into the Hall of Fame.
Membership, up until the BOD decides otherwise, is FREE. This was done specifically so that more therapists can have a voice in the initial formation and to prevent the appearance that I personally will be profiting from the start up of the Alliance. Any costs incurred in the formation and up to the election itself, has been and will be absorbed by me. I will NOT be asking the newly elected BOD to reimburse me for any expenses I have incurred.
Solicitation of donations for the Alliance will be up to the BOD. The Alliance is set up as a Business League, which is defined on the IRS site at http://www.irs.gov/charities/nonprofits/article/0,,id=96107,00.html and the BOD will proceed from there.
Have a great day over there!Mike
Ravensara Travillian said:Will the festival and the organization continue to be linked after memberships become paid? Do you have a transition plan to ensure that potential conflicts of interest, not only now, but in the future as well, between a non-profit organization and a for-profit event are addressed?
Will you be soliciting donations for the organizations from MTs in the future? I trust you will be actively making clear to potential members and donors the distinction between non-profit and tax-deductible, since if this is just starting up now, you will not have had time to follow the IRS process, and thus cannot yet have achieved tax-exempt status.
Are you planning to apply to the IRS for tax-exempt status, so that later on, people can make donations to your organization and deduct it from their taxes? Because if so, we are doing you a huge favor, whether you realize it or not.
If you think the questions from potential members here are hard, you will be in for quite a shock when you apply to the IRS for tax-exempt status. Compared to their process, the questions here are softballs. And they will take a cold, hard, jaded look at the linkage between a non-profit organization and a for-profit event. You want to make sure that you are not only cleaner than Caesar's wife, but also that you can prove you are, if you want to take your organization to that step.
Of course, if you're not planning to apply for tax-exempt status, that's fine, too, as long as you make potential donors aware they cannot deduct it from their taxes. You don't want to get any donors in trouble with the IRS.
Mike Hinkle said:
Thank you for explaining that. There is no finances in action, in anyway until after we have already, left the Festival and a meeting of the BOD and an amount for membership is created. There is no way, I gain. If people are upset, because others may attend the Festival and attend classes to help their education, again that is a side benefit for both. But I have already been told my list of reasons for this is weak right so it will be minimal, right?
There is no perfect date, place or situation for all to be happy. All I can do is have the election and then let the Alliance carry on. Is there opportunity to take advantage of folks? I am sure one could find a way. There is no way to close every avenue or make you believe whatever will do that. All I can do is what I am and that's it.
Ravensara Travillian said:"Especially when you consider the proposals of certain people to change the core of what MTs do (talk about conflict of interest!)"
To quote the great Señor Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Where is the conflict of interest in MTs advocating for more responsibility and better education for themselves?
Can you show us a direct connection where MTs advocating for professionalism gives someone an immediate opportunity to gain financially? A hypothetical increase in income somewhere someday is not a conflict of interest; this is Professional Ethics 101 material.
On the other hand, a direct co-location linkage between a non-profit organization, and a for-profit event owned by the same person who organized the non-profit, and who is conducting operations in absolute secrecy, is rife with opportunities for direct financial and influence conflict of interest.
No one is saying that Mike is definitely acting with impropriety. While the opportunity for conflict of interest is clearly and obviously there, no one has said he is actually profiting from MTAA. It is the continued refusal to conduct operations transparently, and to make a clear distinction between the festival and the organization, that has people rightly asking questions about what is being done to address the potential for conflict of interest here. Dismissing them as having "trust issues" and claiming their motivations are impure, is not how an organization conducts itself professionally.
Meanwhile, you have implied that MTs acting in good faith to address problems they perceive in massage therapy have a conflict of interest. That is a serious accusation.
There are only two choices here: either you know what "conflict of interest" means, or you don't.
If you don't know what it means, you should apologize for saying such a grossly inappropriate thing inadvertently.
If you do know what it means, then you know that what you call a conflict of interest really isn't, and you are simply arguing in bad faith.
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Permalink Reply by Erica Olson on
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That's because your definitions are not consistent with what the words really mean. I asked you what you perceived to be the difference, and you answered in a way that made me understand why you chose the word "alliance" rather than "association." (Thank you!)
However, that does not change the fact that an alliance is a type of association. Ergo, there's no reason for you to get upset or correct people when they call the alliance an association.
E.
Mike Hinkle said:
Here we go again. Mike, what is your definition? That's not good enough for me....
Nite guys!!!
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Mike - Thank you for starting the MTAA. I am happy to be a charter member. I realize that the organization is in its infancy and still evolving. And yes, the by-laws and BOD elections will be crucial to the direction the Alliance takes. But I also believe the intent of the Alliance is honorable, and will respect and listen to the voice of all massage therapists. It is not often that, as therapists, we can take part in developing an organization that represents us and the future of the massage therapy profession.
The profession has changed dramatically over the past few years. Practices range from both sole proprietorships to franchise organizations; our modalities include a wide range of manual and energy treatment methods; our training is no longer limited to independent massage schools, but also includes instruction at more diverse institutes and colleges; and the regulatory aspects of massage continues to change. We are all therapists and as a group, we need to address the variety of issues affecting us all.
This web-site has been a great place for expressing ideas and all its lively discussions really show what a dedicated professional group we are, but I believe the Alliance will take our forums and discussions to a new level of action. This is a great opportunity for all therapists. Joining the MTAA is a choice, but our participation during this initial stage will set the framework for an organization that represents us all.
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Hi Erica,
In the field of massage, Associations are seen to supply insurance for therapists. It is not our intention to sell insurance. A clear word was needed to show unity, accomplish our goals and yet differentiate us from our massage associations, thus Alliance.
Have a great day!
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You are welcome Laurie. I hope it will serve you well. Thanks!
Have a great day!
Laurie Russell said:
Mike - Thank you for starting the MTAA. I am happy to be a charter member. I realize that the organization is in its infancy and still evolving. And yes, the by-laws and BOD elections will be crucial to the direction the Alliance takes. But I also believe the intent of the Alliance is honorable, and will respect and listen to the voice of all massage therapists. It is not often that, as therapists, we can take part in developing an organization that represents us and the future of the massage therapy profession.
The profession has changed dramatically over the past few years. Practices range from both sole proprietorships to franchise organizations; our modalities include a wide range of manual and energy treatment methods; our training is no longer limited to independent massage schools, but also includes instruction at more diverse institutes and colleges; and the regulatory aspects of massage continues to change. We are all therapists and as a group, we need to address the variety of issues affecting us all.
This web-site has been a great place for expressing ideas and all its lively discussions really show what a dedicated professional group we are, but I believe the Alliance will take our forums and discussions to a new level of action. This is a great opportunity for all therapists. Joining the MTAA is a choice, but our participation during this initial stage will set the framework for an organization that represents us all.
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Permalink Reply by Lisa on
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There is no way, I gain. If people are upset, because others may attend the Festival and attend classes to help their education, again that is a side benefit for both.
Where the perceived conflict of interest is, is that in order to vote one has to attend the festival. It is HIGHLY unlikely that one will travel out of their state to JUST vote. And, the perceived conflict is that IF one DID go JUST to vote...(marketing 101 tells us) they will end up staying, and register and go to the festival. So the festival, ergo, YOU, makes more money than you would have, should the voting have been also offered through email.
I would also like to ask, since we are not being told who these veteran therapists/teachers are that are helping you with the by-laws, are THEY allowed to run for BOD? You said you will not be. However, this elite group that YOU'VE formed to speak on OUR behalf, should not be able to run either since it would be a conflict of interest in that they are writing the by-laws. Their participation in the BOD would be inappropriate since they are in it from ground up. However, since you will not tell us who they are, how then are we to know just how "fair" this election is?
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