Why Are We Following? America Should Be Leading!!!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 14, 2011 at 11:29pm

But Susan, not all therapists want as much education as you want. Must we do what you and Bodhi want?

Susan Chapelle said:

Oh yes.. and you are following because we are leaders.  We WANT more education, we WANT more research, and we are happy to help you with your regulatory practice.  We continue to push for a standardized and national education for therapists.  We are entering colleges for a degree course in our amazing and ever expanding profession, and mostly because Bodhi H is willing to put in countless hours of negotiation, not just talk.  The AMTA exam I passed still drunk with flying colours walking in off the street with many other professionals.  Licensing should be hard, working with patients should require an amazing amount of skill and knowledge. Not 500 hours.

Permalink Reply by Susan Chapelle on February 14, 2011 at 11:32pm

I am saying that massage therapy should probably be a degree course just like physio and every other health care profession.  We should be regulated and held accountable to our patients and we should, as a profession put money and time into research (as I do).  Its incredibly hard and I share your frustration with the AMTA.  It is difficult to prove that massage is worthy of standardization when the profession is divided and afraid of research.  It needs to be voluntary and there needs to be insurance benefit with more hours, not less.  

 

Spa therapist..yes we dropped the ball, but they cannot be MT's and are not covered by insurance.  Let the people who want fuff and buff go to their spa oil rub by 1000 hour trained therapist.  The people who want to be educated in BC go to RMT's.  Our association has done an amazing job of education with the public and those (most) who have insurance need our regulatory number to claim their insurance.  

 

 

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 14, 2011 at 11:35pm

I sure hope so Marilyn. It has been a lot of work to get this far. Education is key but even this group will have to use influence to address the hours situation. There are two main aspects here; Who sets in the legislature and who sits on state boards. Both of these have influence and therapists should know their names and communicate their wishes.

Marilyn St.John said:

Susan ~ Thank you.  I've been on the fence watching this discussion.  It is my opinion, you completely nailed my concerns with reference to a couple of comments on here; and while I signed up for this with a wait-and-see mindset, it will be interesting to see what transpires.  Maybe we'll actually get a voice in shaping the future of the profession here in the States.

 

Permalink Reply by Susan Chapelle on February 14, 2011 at 11:40pm

Would you go to a health care practitioner who has more or less education? I want to start a career and only put in 500 hours and tell people I can palpate their anatomy and tell them whats up?  Not likely.  It's hard and we earn lots of cash.  We owe it to our patients to be educated. Too bad if they don't want to be educated.  Seriously?  Are you arguing for less education?  If someone wants to rub people with oil then let them put a sign up and not be regulated.  A health care professional needs regulation. A serious therapist loves to learn, and should be more than stoked to get more education to help their patient. What could they possibly be afraid of? Think of other health care professionals.  Physio's are INCREASING their education.  Massage.. you want to decrease it?  Crazy talk. 

 

And yes. You should do what me and Bodhi want.  It is good for our profession.  Try and get a booking with either one of us.  We are packed with Doctors referrals and we work in hospitals.  We are trusted because we are able to communicate with other health care professionals on the same level.  We are able to write insurance reports, and be responsible for our patients health care.  We don't "imagine" that we feel things, we know, because we have done research to prove it. It takes long hard work to be educated.  It is expensive. And it is worth every penny. 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 14, 2011 at 11:42pm

So 1000 hours for Spa Therapists and 2200 for MTs in Canada? I was looking at your recommended pay scale and saw $36 recommended for 1/2 hour.

That is not too far from what we charge here. I thought you charged a lot more to make that kind of money that the MT's are to make for that much schooling. What is the average wage for a therapist in Canada?

Susan Chapelle said:

I am saying that massage therapy should probably be a degree course just like physio and every other health care profession.  We should be regulated and held accountable to our patients and we should, as a profession put money and time into research (as I do).  Its incredibly hard and I share your frustration with the AMTA.  It is difficult to prove that massage is worthy of standardization when the profession is divided and afraid of research.  It needs to be voluntary and there needs to be insurance benefit with more hours, not less.  

 

Spa therapist..yes we dropped the ball, but they cannot be MT's and are not covered by insurance.  Let the people who want fuff and buff go to their spa oil rub by 1000 hour trained therapist.  The people who want to be educated in BC go to RMT's.  Our association has done an amazing job of education with the public and those (most) who have insurance need our regulatory number to claim their insurance.  

 

 

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 14, 2011 at 11:49pm

I hear you, Susan. But what about the therapists that don't want to learn that much? Here Spa Therapists and Massage Therapists are the same title.

Would you go to a health care practitioner who has more or less education? I want to start a career and only put in 500 hours and tell people I can palpate their anatomy and tell them whats up?  Not likely.  It's hard and we earn lots of cash.  We owe it to our patients to be educated. Too bad if they don't want to be educated.  Seriously?  Are you arguing for less education?  If someone wants to rub people with oil then let them put a sign up and not be regulated.  A health care professional needs regulation. A serious therapist loves to learn, and should be more than stoked to get more education to help their patient. What could they possibly be afraid of? Think of other health care professionals.  Physio's are INCREASING their education.  Massage.. you want to decrease it?  Crazy talk. 

 

And yes. You should do what me and Bodhi want.  It is good for our profession.  Try and get a booking with either one of us.  We are packed with Doctors referrals and we work in hospitals.  We are trusted because we are able to communicate with other health care professionals on the same level.  We are able to write insurance reports, and be responsible for our patients health care.  We don't "imagine" that we feel things, we know, because we have done research to prove it. It takes long hard work to be educated.  It is expensive. And it is worth every penny. 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on February 15, 2011 at 4:34am

Susan Chapelle said:

Would you go to a health care practitioner who has more or less education?

That all depends on what the problem is. does it not.?

 

 

 I want to start a career and only put in 500 hours and tell people I can palpate their anatomy and tell them whats up?

Are you talking about diagnosing or simply giving an opinion ?

 

Not likely.  It's hard and we earn lots of cash.

Thats fantastic :) 

 

 We owe it to our patients to be educated. Too bad if they don't want to be educated.  Seriously?  Are you arguing for less education?

Seriously, sometimes less is more, eg  when I try to refere up the food chain, the client comes back and complains that  they dont like the "senior therapists"   treatment room, they don't listen, detached attitude,

perform advanced techniques eg manipulation without enough explanation. Bottom line= they don't like the therapist or the (EB) treatment methods. I then have to ring said "senior therapist" to check there is no reason for me to refuse treatment. (by senior I mean physio, chiro osteo all highly trained)   

 

If someone wants to rub people with oil then let them put a sign up and not be regulated.  A health care professional needs regulation. A serious therapist loves to learn, and should be more than stoked to get more education to help their patient. What could they possibly be afraid of?

Ending up talking like you prehaps?

 

 Think of other health care professionals.  Physio's are INCREASING their education.  Massage.. you want to decrease it?  Crazy talk. 

The physio's are coming back to hands on massage techniques because their wondefull degree courses became EB ultra sound and exercise based treatment they are only now realizing this mistake.

 

And yes. You should do what me and Bodhi want.  It is good for our profession.  

Pardon me for disagreeing

Try and get a booking with either one of us.  We are packed with Doctors referrals and we work in hospitals.  We are trusted because we are able to communicate with other health care professionals on the same level.

I am glad you are so successfull, however the way you communicate your post means you still have many, many more hours to go honing your skills in this area. imo   

 We are able to write insurance reports, and be responsible for our patients health care.  We don't "imagine" that we feel things, we know, because we have done research to prove it. It takes long hard work to be educated.  It is expensive. And it is worth every penny.

Susan, thanks for dropping by, but I must  go now as I have a full day using my imagination in the application of non EB practice.

 

Mike its good you noticed this, I hope noone minds my 2pence worth from across the pond, as this debate is going on in lots of places.  

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Laura Allen on February 15, 2011 at 7:49am

I appreciate ABMP providing this site. I must say, though, that I avoid posting on here very much because of the tendency for "conversation" on here to deteriorate into personal attacks.

 

I don't know of any country or locale that has a "perfect" system. Perhaps there's no such thing. I do, however, admire Canada's provinces that have set a high standard. I don't think there is any such a thing as too much education. I personally would like to see the educational standards raised in the US.  NY, Nebraska and PR all require 1000 hours, and the rest are below that. There are still 8 states that have no regulation at all, and any Tom, D*** or Harry can hold themselves out to be a massage therapist, which is a sad state of affairs, as it is in any place where there's no regulation.

 

I am always in favor of a healthy "let's agree to disagree" type of discussion. I am not in favor of people being insulting to each other. I also tend to listen to people who are much better educated than I am...some of their knowledge and expertise might rub off on me and I'm always grateful for that. I don't refuse to listen to another person's point of view, or automatically discount it because it doesn't agree with my own, regardless of their experience and education.

 

There is not a national standard here. The NCBTMB does approve of continuing education providers, but a number of the states have their own approval process. The FSMTB would like to promote portability, but the states that have better requirements are not going to dumb it down for the rest of them. The US is in fact just as fractured as Canada, if not more so. There is a big variance in requirements. There is a lot of variance in the legal titles you must use from state to state. There is variance in license fees, entry-level education, CE requirements. We're hardly unified. The Canadian provinces are big, compared to most of our states...several states would fit into one of their provinces, for the most part. COMTA's hour standard for accredited schools was chosen based entirely on the fact that you cannot get federal financial aid for a program that is not at least 600 hours and didn't have diddly squat to do with raising a standard for education's sake. There is no one voice, and there never will be, here, there, or anywhere else, at least in my lifetime.

 

We can all pick each other apart and do the "mine is better than yours." I don't have the time or inclination for that, so I'll go back to lurking around here once in awhile to see what people are up to. I hope you all follow your own path, do the best you can do, and are successful and prosperous, whatever that means to you.

 

My father was born in Hamilton, Ontario, which makes me an honorary Canadian, eh?

 

Peace on Earth.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Alexei Levine on February 15, 2011 at 8:04am

Marilyn and Susan,

Why make the profession of massage therapy into the same type of thing as the profession of physical therapy?  Why not just become a physical therapist if you want to work with injured or ill people and allow people who can't afford or don't have the time to get a degree, do wellness work with the millions of people who need wellness massage and aren't suffering from anything other than too much stress in their lives?  At the very least what's wrong with a tiered approach to licensing.  In a tiered approach, a therapist could get the kind of education which is currently required in most of the country (USA), and do wellness massage that wouldn't require an MD's referral.

By the way, I am serious when I say why not become a physical therapist if you want to do that type of work.  From a societal as well as a personal viewpoint it just makes no sense to try to change massage therapy into a copy of the existing profession of physical therapy.  Physical therapy is a mature profession that does a fantastic job of addressing the problems of people with musculoskeletal and movement disorders.  

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 15, 2011 at 8:42am

Hi Stephen,

I guess this is turning into a world tell us how to build this American entity. I don't like others deciding internal affairs, but I guess since it is an internatinal profession, we are supposed to listen to the whole world. I guess all professions do that?

 

I have noticed the superiority complex in Canada, oh yeah. I think the US is doing fine. We have smaller areas but we have so many more legislatures and people to deal with. Canada has more land mass, that's it. With just 3 provinces regulating massage, it is so much easier for them to make law and deal wih less therapists and patients.

 

I think we need to stop trying to reach other's standards, set a standard ourselves as for what we need, not what others have and go about taking care of our clients. I doubt many will go to Canada because they have more school. It really is interesting I find that in all the time I have been involved in massage, I have never had the first client ask me am I credentialed, how many hours do I have, where did I go to school or anything like this. They just want to feel better.

 

Then I hear from friends that run an 800 hour school that cost less than I paid for 500 hours in FL. When you graduate you don't owe a  thing. There are ways to do schooling better. But states here allow colleges and ill prepared schools to operate and the education is suffering. So everyone's is jumping to raise the hours for "those that follow".  Small schools that  do this are hard to find because they are so few. Thanks to those that are out there trying to make the difference.

 

It is a shame that the discussion have devolved to arguing. But national pride, being told you are inferior and in the dark ages doesn't sit well with many, especially me. I am proud of the progress we have made and don't quite get yet how those that have been in 20 plus years feel their knowledge of what they learned with 500 and less hours and all the time between training, was that great that they are so above the student of today. If this is the case, teaching is the problem.

 

I think if we continue to go Canada's way there will be a huge divide, as in Canada, between Spa therapists and MT's.

 

This is turning into like the A t students versus the C students, And with BC continuing to raise the bar, as soon as the majority get there, therapists will always be frustrated. Because there is an Oxford, does not mean every school should have to meet that requirement. 

 

We need to work on our educaton. A school is a building. The teacher is the education. Raise the bar for teaching. If they aren't doing their jobs, you can go to school for 5,000 hours and you'll still need.....

 

 

 

 

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Susan Chapelle said:

Would you go to a health care practitioner who has more or less education?

That all depends on what the problem is. does it not.?

 

 

 I want to start a career and only put in 500 hours and tell people I can palpate their anatomy and tell them whats up?

Are you talking about diagnosing or simply giving an opinion ?

 

Not likely.  It's hard and we earn lots of cash.

Thats fantastic :) 

 

 We owe it to our patients to be educated. Too bad if they don't want to be educated.  Seriously?  Are you arguing for less education?

Seriously, sometimes less is more, eg  when I try to refere up the food chain, the client comes back and complains that  they dont like the "senior therapists"   treatment room, they don't listen, detached attitude,

perform advanced techniques eg manipulation without enough explanation. Bottom line= they don't like the therapist or the (EB) treatment methods. I then have to ring said "senior therapist" to check there is no reason for me to refuse treatment. (by senior I mean physio, chiro osteo all highly trained)   

 

If someone wants to rub people with oil then let them put a sign up and not be regulated.  A health care professional needs regulation. A serious therapist loves to learn, and should be more than stoked to get more education to help their patient. What could they possibly be afraid of?

Ending up talking like you prehaps?

 

 Think of other health care professionals.  Physio's are INCREASING their education.  Massage.. you want to decrease it?  Crazy talk. 

The physio's are coming back to hands on massage techniques because their wondefull degree courses became EB ultra sound and exercise based treatment they are only now realizing this mistake.

 

And yes. You should do what me and Bodhi want.  It is good for our profession.  

Pardon me for disagreeing

Try and get a booking with either one of us.  We are packed with Doctors referrals and we work in hospitals.  We are trusted because we are able to communicate with other health care professionals on the same level.

I am glad you are so successfull, however the way you communicate your post means you still have many, many more hours to go honing your skills in this area. imo   

 We are able to write insurance reports, and be responsible for our patients health care.  We don't "imagine" that we feel things, we know, because we have done research to prove it. It takes long hard work to be educated.  It is expensive. And it is worth every penny.

Susan, thanks for dropping by, but I must  go now as I have a full day using my imagination in the application of non EB practice.

 

Mike its good you noticed this, I hope noone minds my 2pence worth from across the pond, as this debate is going on in lots of places.  

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Vlad on February 15, 2011 at 9:43am

As a therapist who found my basic education lacking somewhat, here's my 2c

- There is too much talk about number of hours and not enough talk about quality of the education. Even if you have increased hours, it doesn't mean the quality of the education is good.
- The standards of the teachers needs to be raised .
- Rather than making it so that the most therapists can pass an exam (which is what most schools and educators are geared towards), the education needs to be geared to "how is what I'm learning relevant to what I need to know in practice".
- There is little guidance given to the fact that therapists need to keep educating themselves, including keeping up to date with research findings.  I'm not referring to CE's, I'm referring to a continual, iterative learning process in their practices.
- CE classes are viewed as an avenue for serious learning, rather than refresher courses or just a way to keep up with what is is going on (which is what most professions view them as). The serious learning is done in basic education in most other professions. Shouldn't it be that way in ours?
- The "more modalities you have the better" phrase should seriously be thought about. I think it's untrue and I think it's a result of the fact that our profession has turned into a selling industry (not a profession - an industry) for CEs.
- Most CE classes are not that great! Some are, though.
- Critical thinking is not that prevalent in our education. That is more than just a *this would be nice* - it's an injustice to everyone in it.
- Choice is a good thing and the ability to go into different streams according to career paths should be available. I don't like the *keep everything easy to accommodate everyone*. It brings down standards. Streams would be a good thing.
- No one is saying that anyone that has more hours is superior to anyone else. I've been subjected to that attitude from other therapists since I went through a base program with a very low number of hours (but at least I knew I knew nothing). I've also been subjected to that attitude from the nationally certified. Even if it was a 1500 hour program, it wouldn't have been very good since the teaching wasn't that good. One thing I am grateful for is that I wasn't forced to study anything that didn't apply to my work.

If these things were addressed, it would a start.

Permalink Reply by Marilyn St.John on February 15, 2011 at 10:12am

As in my earlier posting, this is why:  If I wanted to be a PT, yes I would get that education;  however, I am sixty one years old and I have better ways to spend my money than on another advanced degree program.  I entered this profession to be the best MT I could be.  Does that mean I must now stop educating myself before I cross some sort of imaginary line?  Just because I aspire to know I can help people beyond a 60-minute fluff & buff certainly doesn't make me equivalent to a PT...but the PT's, OT's and physicians I massage certainly appreciate my expertise.

Alexei Levine said:

Marilyn and Susan,

Why make the profession of massage therapy into the same type of thing as the profession of physical therapy?  Why not just become a physical therapist if you want to work with injured or ill people and allow people who can't afford or don't have the time to get a degree, do wellness work with the millions of people who need wellness massage and aren't suffering from anything other than too much stress in their lives?  At the very least what's wrong with a tiered approach to licensing.  In a tiered approach, a therapist could get the kind of education which is currently required in most of the country (USA), and do wellness massage that wouldn't require an MD's referral.

By the way, I am serious when I say why not become a physical therapist if you want to do that type of work.  From a societal as well as a personal viewpoint it just makes no sense to try to change massage therapy into a copy of the existing profession of physical therapy.  Physical therapy is a mature profession that does a fantastic job of addressing the problems of people with musculoskeletal and movement disorders.  

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