Why Are We Following? America Should Be Leading!!!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Alexei Levine on February 15, 2011 at 10:15am

Marilyn,

I respect your preference, but some people here insist that the standards need to be changed foe all MTs to accomodate their personal preference.  That's all I'm saying, that we don't nned to eliminate all the good people who just want to practice wellness massage.

Alexei

Permalink Reply by Emmanuel Bistas on February 15, 2011 at 10:20am

in agreement

Vlad is now roadkill said:

As a therapist who found my basic education lacking somewhat, here's my 2c

- There is too much talk about number of hours and not enough talk about quality of the education. Even if you have increased hours, it doesn't mean the quality of the education is good.
- The standards of the teachers needs to be raised .
- Rather than making it so that the most therapists can pass an exam (which is what most schools and educators are geared towards), the education needs to be geared to "how is what I'm learning relevant to what I need to know in practice".
- There is little guidance given to the fact that therapists need to keep educating themselves, including keeping up to date with research findings.  I'm not referring to CE's, I'm referring to a continual, iterative learning process in their practices.
- CE classes are viewed as an avenue for serious learning, rather than refresher courses or just a way to keep up with what is is going on (which is what most professions view them as). The serious learning is done in basic education in most other professions. Shouldn't it be that way in ours?
- The "more modalities you have the better" phrase should seriously be thought about. I think it's untrue and I think it's a result of the fact that our profession has turned into a selling industry (not a profession - an industry) for CEs.
- Most CE classes are not that great! Some are, though.
- Critical thinking is not that prevalent in our education. That is more than just a *this would be nice* - it's an injustice to everyone in it.
- Choice is a good thing and the ability to go into different streams according to career paths should be available. I don't like the *keep everything easy to accommodate everyone*. It brings down standards. Streams would be a good thing.
- No one is saying that anyone that has more hours is superior to anyone else. I've been subjected to that attitude from other therapists since I went through a base program with a very low number of hours (but at least I knew I knew nothing). I've also been subjected to that attitude from the nationally certified. Even if it was a 1500 hour program, it wouldn't have been very good since the teaching wasn't that good. One thing I am grateful for is that I wasn't forced to study anything that didn't apply to my work.

If these things were addressed, it would a start.

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 15, 2011 at 12:17pm

I appreciate your trying to be professional Stephen but also understand. Many statements are baiting. There is a lot to professionalism needing to be re-taught in Canada as well. And I admit, I don't give much. I protect too much sometimes as well. But let's talk about the topic.

 

I do not see Canada as leading any longer. They have more hours in certain areas for certain things, that's all. They separated clinical and spa fields. Clinical 2200 (Specific schools) and Spa 1000 (other schools). We would have to educate the public of this divide (if we followed) and only allow certain schools to be advanced. It will cause lawsuits (here)because there aren't enough of these or they are only in certain areas and we don't have a properly qualified teachers at this level in this area and it will spiral. Before you jack up the hours, you better jack up some teachers standards or it's all gonna be a waste. Let's start there first.

 

We are not Canada.

 

California says 100 hours is enough to massage safely. AMTA told Texas that 500 hours is enough to safely massage, that 300 was dangerous. So they finally did go up to 500. In NY and Nebraska it's 1000. So now Federal tax dollars are available to 650 hours, so folks are jumping up and get the max. And here comes Canada waving their 2200 and 3000 hours. States get to say what will happen inside their borders, so no matter what any organization says or even does it can be changed with a vote.

 

It seems there is a drive to push up hours.

 

Here are the active players:

Therapists taught back when educators cared.

Massage CE Providers

Therapists wanting advanced training

Researchers

Schools

 

This group is causing a huge distress on our existing system by demanding more hours. There is nothing stopping anyone from attaining any level of further training. Raising standards will more problematic than folks are considering.

 

I think Laura is right, one set hours and reciprocity will never happen in our lifetime, because in the end, legislatures can undo whatever. But you are  going to have poorly trained therapists until there is a standard teacher. All that is happening now is banter that is frustrating therapists.

 

We are different than Canada, Let's stop comparing their small system to ours. We are not going to jump to even 1000 hours nationwide. Just because we have a profession alike (although they keep modifying it) does not mean we are alike or should be. Their pay scale on their site does not warrant the education they are paying for. I am not against education. I am against tearing massage in America apart, just so we can say "We are better" or even "We meet their standards!"

 

The polls I have done almost all say 500 hours should be the norm to accomplish school. No, this doesn't allow for mastering anything nor should it. Massage schools were set up to enable people to enter the massage profession. Advanced Skill levels can then be attained through further education. I know many disagree with this and that's ok.

 

But trying to make graduating students be advanced students is going to create less people attending school (yeah, some say), higher prices for schooling (will cut people entering massage, yeah, some say) drop-out rates will be higher because school is longer (will cut people entering massage, yeah, some say). Less therapists always equals better therapists?

 

I understand those that went before, feel they got a better education. It is the same in education itself. People don't feel schools are teaching like they used to. Guys, nothing, nothing, nothing stays the same forever. Massage will never be what it was and trying to make it so will be divisive and fruitless. In the end, states will win. The only answer to create one rule would be Federal takeover and most would fight that.

 

Laura's right!

 

 

 

Stephen Jeffrey said:

I apologise to susan,

I should not have personalised my responce in the way I did.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Susan Chapelle on February 15, 2011 at 12:55pm

Funny, nobody is forcing anyone into more education.  Why would it possibly offend anyone that we have such high standards unless you are feeling slightly deficient?  You are right.. your country has proved its autonomy in many fields. You need to do what is right for your therapists, and what I hear is that you need better educators, better standardization (whatever that may be) and to accept that we do not "wave" our education in your face.  Only uneducated therapists who are afraid of being forced into more hours would possibly fear a higher standard. We are not physiotherapists, that is obvious.  Manual therapy perhaps (in the very far future) should be a single degree course that involves all of our modalities and not the belief systems but the researched and proven effective standards.  

 To think that our current private system is a cheaper system is insane.  Private schools make their own rules and agenda.  They charge what they want.  A public education system would be far cheaper and allow for scholarships and funding for mature students.  (at least in our system..).  

This is becoming a ridiculous and uneducated argument fuelled obviously by passion for your profession, however under educated it is.  You guys can do what you want obviously, but you seriously look like a bunch of therapists situated in the deep south, pitting our countries standards against each other, and therapists against each other.  We all want quality of care (however that looks for yous all) for our patients.  To argue that more education is going to destroy your practice and cause chaos .. well I wish you luck with your 100 hours of education.  I would rather go to a therapist with both intuition AND education, with a firm knowledge in anatomy, physiology, pathology and neurology.  That is a person that can offer me the best perspective of what they feel with their hands, as well as someone that will not make poo up because they have no idea.  I challenge you all to buck up and get back to school. 

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 15, 2011 at 1:17pm

And folks wondered why I wanted to keep Canada out of the discussion. I am looking at legislatures, associations and laws that are preventing us from uniting and that trying to get to one set of hours will tear us apart. Not fear of education. That is simple minded. Americans do not fear education. We decide to a large degree if we want to enter a field based on costs, time and the final result of pay scale. Your payscale on your website does not warrant the cost of your schools.

 

Not everyone wants to work in a hospital. That does not make them afraid of education. California is the only state allowing 100 hours. And yes, that is their right. We do not walk in lock step. Nor is it needed. We simply need to create another title for these folks, schools that will teach them and the issue will be done. Trying to get every state to any one set of rules... will not work. It didn't in Canada either. That's why only three provinces are regulated. So therapists that want everyone to reach their level, need to buck up and get over themselves.  

Susan Chapelle said:

Funny, nobody is forcing anyone into more education.  Why would it possibly offend anyone that we have such high standards unless you are feeling slightly deficient?  You are right.. your country has proved its autonomy in many fields. You need to do what is right for your therapists, and what I hear is that you need better educators, better standardization (whatever that may be) and to accept that we do not "wave" our education in your face.  Only uneducated therapists who are afraid of being forced into more hours would possibly fear a higher standard. We are not physiotherapists, that is obvious.  Manual therapy perhaps (in the very far future) should be a single degree course that involves all of our modalities and not the belief systems but the researched and proven effective standards.  

 To think that our current private system is a cheaper system is insane.  Private schools make their own rules and agenda.  They charge what they want.  A public education system would be far cheaper and allow for scholarships and funding for mature students.  (at least in our system..).  

This is becoming a ridiculous and uneducated argument fuelled obviously by passion for your profession, however under educated it is.  You guys can do what you want obviously, but you seriously look like a bunch of therapists situated in the deep south, pitting our countries standards against each other, and therapists against each other.  We all want quality of care (however that looks for yous all) for our patients.  To argue that more education is going to destroy your practice and cause chaos .. well I wish you luck with your 100 hours of education.  I would rather go to a therapist with both intuition AND education, with a firm knowledge in anatomy, physiology, pathology and neurology.  That is a person that can offer me the best perspective of what they feel with their hands, as well as someone that will not make poo up because they have no idea.  I challenge you all to buck up and get back to school. 

Permalink Reply by Susan Chapelle on February 15, 2011 at 4:24pm

Yes.  I agree.  Create a different name... 100 hours.. beginner baby rubbers 200 hours better beginner baby rubbers 300 hours appliers of oil 400 hours good appliers of oil 500 hours pay me to rub you 1000 hours spa therapists. 3000 hours massage therapist.  Good! We have it all sorted out.

I agree, schools are not teaching how they use to.  Make them accountable, develop a national standard then TEST for the national standard.  The AMTA has it right, they just need to refine their practice. Nothing is right without people putting in hours and time to make it so. If you want to start your own association, go nuts.  I hope all the under educated therapists join and have a place to make themselves better educated, based on whatever they feel they need, which is obviously not what the public needs.  So go atter.  I do wish you well, because any association is better than no association. Perhaps you can do a better job than those that have been at it for a decade.  We are a young profession and are in need of some standardization.  We cannot be educating the public over who took 100 hours and who took 10000 hours.  That is why we have licensing. Here, our title "MT" is a registered title, you cannot practice without both school and government exam.  Our health care practice is the same, whether you are a nurse, doctor or massage therapist, because of those exams.  I am proud to be a health care worker and not a rubber for money.  I am glad that I can be held accountable by law for the results of my treatment.  If we ever proved we could "do harm" then we would be covered by more laws, but nobody has ever killed anyone with a massage, therefore it is unregulated.  But we are thankful for those that work for betterment of our profession, and thankful for our associations that work with insurers, and the government to ensure that the public is protected, and that our profession is held to some amazingly high and regulated standards that are improving every day.  Hopefully by the time my kid wants to become a therapist she can go get a degree, and become a professional not a weekend course hang out a shingle fluff and buffer.

Permalink Reply by Ravensara Travillian on February 15, 2011 at 4:52pm

If you want to start your own association, go nuts.

 

dammit, Susan, it's an alliance, not an association ! :)

Susan Chapelle said:

Yes.  I agree.  Create a different name... 100 hours.. beginner baby rubbers 200 hours better beginner baby rubbers 300 hours appliers of oil 400 hours good appliers of oil 500 hours pay me to rub you 1000 hours spa therapists. 3000 hours massage therapist.  Good! We have it all sorted out.

I agree, schools are not teaching how they use to.  Make them accountable, develop a national standard then TEST for the national standard.  The AMTA has it right, they just need to refine their practice. Nothing is right without people putting in hours and time to make it so. If you want to start your own association, go nuts.  I hope all the under educated therapists join and have a place to make themselves better educated, based on whatever they feel they need, which is obviously not what the public needs.  So go atter.  I do wish you well, because any association is better than no association. Perhaps you can do a better job than those that have been at it for a decade.  We are a young profession and are in need of some standardization.  We cannot be educating the public over who took 100 hours and who took 10000 hours.  That is why we have licensing. Here, our title "MT" is a registered title, you cannot practice without both school and government exam.  Our health care practice is the same, whether you are a nurse, doctor or massage therapist, because of those exams.  I am proud to be a health care worker and not a rubber for money.  I am glad that I can be held accountable by law for the results of my treatment.  If we ever proved we could "do harm" then we would be covered by more laws, but nobody has ever killed anyone with a massage, therefore it is unregulated.  But we are thankful for those that work for betterment of our profession, and thankful for our associations that work with insurers, and the government to ensure that the public is protected, and that our profession is held to some amazingly high and regulated standards that are improving every day.  Hopefully by the time my kid wants to become a therapist she can go get a degree, and become a professional not a weekend course hang out a shingle fluff and buffer.

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 15, 2011 at 5:00pm

Ravensara is correct!:)

Permalink Reply by The Rev on February 15, 2011 at 8:10pm

ooooo..  This discussion is hot and heavy.  One would have thought that with 42 states licensed, much of the debate would have slowed.  It seems to be increasing.  For years I fought against licensing based on my belief licensing benefits the schools.  I still hold that belief but now think licensing could be of benefit to all.  I sent the proposal found at this link http://iscaaty.blogspot.com/2007/06/dear-senator-oropeza-via-fax-an... to CA legislators.  

 

I find it somewhat amusing that with a 1000 hour certificate, lots of other classes and 25 years of practice it would be an "unfair business practice" for me to call myself a cmt because of not being in compliance with the CAMTC.  I don't want to be minimized by that nutshell title.  All it means to me is someone completed a program and passed a test.  

 

I appreciate someone suggested baby rubbers because I am a rubber.  I have t-shirts for sale that can be seen at this site:  http://tinyurl.com/4uq5fbt  Write me off list if you have an interest in buying one.  

 

Thanks for doing what you are doing, Mike.  As much as I would like to contribute more to the argument, I am argued out and have moved on to living with what is coming down the line.  Links to my arguments available upon request.  The young 'uns are going to be paying the price to lay hands, not me.  Tragic but true.  

 

The Rev

SNR&HE

http://theonlinerub.blogspot.com/

http://imstandinghere.com/

ULC Minister

on and on...  

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 15, 2011 at 8:27pm

Thanks Rev!

The Rev said:

ooooo..  This discussion is hot and heavy.  One would have thought that with 42 states licensed, much of the debate would have slowed.  It seems to be increasing.  For years I fought against licensing based on my belief licensing benefits the schools.  I still hold that belief but now think licensing could be of benefit to all.  I sent the proposal found at this link http://iscaaty.blogspot.com/2007/06/dear-senator-oropeza-via-fax-an... to CA legislators.  

 

I find it somewhat amusing that with a 1000 hour certificate, lots of other classes and 25 years of practice it would be an "unfair business practice" for me to call myself a cmt because of not being in compliance with the CAMTC.  I don't want to be minimized by that nutshell title.  All it means to me is someone completed a program and passed a test.  

 

I appreciate someone suggested baby rubbers because I am a rubber.  I have t-shirts for sale that can be seen at this site:  http://tinyurl.com/4uq5fbt  Write me off list if you have an interest in buying one.  

 

Thanks for doing what you are doing, Mike.  As much as I would like to contribute more to the argument, I am argued out and have moved on to living with what is coming down the line.  Links to my arguments available upon request.  The young 'uns are going to be paying the price to lay hands, not me.  Tragic but true.  

 

The Rev

SNR&HE

http://theonlinerub.blogspot.com/

http://imstandinghere.com/

ULC Minister

on and on...  

Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on February 16, 2011 at 8:56am

I would like to apologise for my earlier apology................turns out I was right all along :)

Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on February 16, 2011 at 9:32am

Yes you were, Stephen!  That's ok...we will persevere!

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