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Body Cells Carry Emotional Memory
Body Cells Carry Emotional Memory
By Boris Prilutsky
I found the theory that body cells carry emotional memories to be a true one. During my 38 years of clinical experience, numerous times I have witnessed the emotional reactions of my patients/clients to soft tissue mobilization. To more clearly explain this phenomenon, I would like to share one of my most interesting clinical experiences with you that support the theory of emotional memory being carried body cells.
Over 20 years ago, I treated one of the world-renowned boxers of the time from a shoulder injury. The right shoulder had a severe sprain/strain case with suspicion of possible rotator cuff tear. As with all such cases, after 24 hours of cold application procedures (cold application must be applied no more than 10-15 minutes and must be repeated every two hours) we started intensive massage therapy on the unaffected side in order to awake vasomotor reflex that will express by increasing blood supply to the injured extremities. I began to follow the treatment protocol for the above-mentioned purposes, starting to mobilize all groups of rotator cuff muscles layer by layer, as well as the anterior, posterior, and middle part of the deltoid muscles. As he was receiving the massage therapy, suddenly this big, tough, extremely strong man started crying, vocalizing sounds like that of a little boy. He was confused and expressed his embarrassment at breaking down in tears.
Being familiar with the theory that body cells carry emotional memory, I suggested to him to cry out whatever this emotional memory was. The sport clinical psychologist was informed of the incident. During his evaluation, this professional athlete, with the help of the psychologist, recovered a memory from his deep subconscious of an event that happened to him when he was eight years old.
Briefly, the story was that the boy's grandfather (his mother's father) once interrupted the constant fight between the boy's father and alcoholic mother; his grandfather attacked his father with a hammer. Afterward, the father was delivered in critical condition to the hospital and the grandfather was arrested. During this period of time, the little boy future boxing champion fell, off his bicycle and hurt his left shoulder. Crying, he came to his mom who was screaming into the phone, and asked her to comfort him because of the pain in his shoulder. His mother reacted in anger, and took his pleas as just whining for attention and she hit him with the phone a few times on this painful shoulder. All these years, on a subconscious level, this man carried difficult baggage of these memories of events related to losing the most important people in his life; his grandfather and father; and related to rejection by his mother. This kind of crying, emotional release tremendously helped this athlete to get rid of this subconscious trauma. This heavy emotional baggage was terribly disturbing and robbed him of a lot of happiness all these years, without him even knowing it existed. My experience has taught me that usually these emotional releases happen with people at the time when we perform massage (including deep tissue mobilization) in the inhibitory regime. Please be aware that emotional release may not be expressed by crying. Many clients may report to you that they have trouble sleeping and experience worry, or they may start shaking during the massage. Some of them will report unusual emotional sensitivity. Please explain to your clients that all above-mentioned reactions are very positive reactions and within the next few days of going through these reactions, they will feel a great deal better. Regarding the boxer whose case I presented to you, he later reported to me that he never thought that this subconscious baggage could destroy the quality and happiness of his life so much. He told me that thanks to this innocent massage therapy on the healthy shoulder, he was able to find peace within himself.
It's reasonable to assume that the memory of the emotional experience is stored somewhere in the brain - the system that is specialized in memory handling and remained inaccessible, as many other memories a human being experiencing during the life. But the shoulder cells hold the bookmark or a memory address of where the actual memories of the incident were stored in the brain. Thus by activating the shoulder cell you triggered the process of loading the content of that remote memory in the active memory, causing the aforementioned reaction.
As you can see from this episode, clinical psychology approach alone wouldn't be sufficient, because of the emotional memories carried by the cells of his body. Presently, I receive professional referrals from clinical psychologists.
Dear colleagues, I would like to encourage you to contact clinical psychologists in your neighborhoods and to offer them your services to incorporate massage therapy in their treatments. The Latin word "doctor" means educator. After being involved in many cases,at US it is clear to me that we should educate not only our clients about the power and importance of massage therapy, but also other health care practitioners.
Views: 10187
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Christopher A. Moyer on
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I like how you dismiss anything you don't agree with or understand by attributing it to ego, or labeling it an issue of semantics. That must save you a lot of time and mental energy.
When you called me an ass, did you mean a derriere, or a donkey? I like semantics, you see.
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Permalink Reply by Ravensara Travillian on
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in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.
That was so funny that I just had to see it again.
Gary W Addis said:Sigh. Again playing the semantics game. you call it purple, I call it lavender. Obviously to even a child, I said that I will take up the study of the Eastern modalities without forming preconceived opinion going in-- in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.
Christopher A. Moyer said:I haven't yet been exposed to the energy modalities such as Reiki and Reflexology. Going in, I admit to skepticism--but I am open. I will non judgmentally study the energy modalities in the classroom, and hope like hell that I can be convinced..
Why would you do that nonjudgmentally? Do you mean to say you will literally not use your judgment? And if so, why would you do that?
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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on what personal insult you are talking about?dishonesty this is my opinion how you behaving. Please answer on my questions "in regards to bookmarking" please offer definition of yours on this phenomenon,as well offer your explanation on phenomenon of negative emotional storages at our body.yes I found the theory that body cells carry emotional memories to be a true one. During my 39 years of clinical experience, numerous times I have witnessed the emotional reactions of my patients/clients to soft tissue mobilization." if you don't believe in this theory, or in treatment room do not facing this phenomenon then make it clear. If you believe in this theory and know where this emotions are stored, then say it. It will be honest and respectful and I will apologize for my mistake. But meantime this is not a mistake.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.
What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.
No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:
Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on
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Ms Travillian, I go by your own words. A few weeks ago during an earlier generation of this thread you lectured me on useless details of the anatomy of the brain; you listed in detail your academic and professional accomplishments. Suitably unimpressed, I reminded all once again of your superior attitude.
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on. Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.
What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.
No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.
"non-judgmental, open mind"--right. Excuse me while I cough up a hairball.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
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As long as you continue to call me dishonest, Boris, I will have nothing more to do with you.
If you really want me to engage with you, then you will show at least a minimum amount of personal respect, and you will stop the verbal abuse. If not, you won't.
Boris Prilutsky said:on what personal insult you are talking about?dishonesty this is my opinion how you behaving. Please answer on my questions "in regards to bookmarking" please offer definition of yours on this phenomenon,as well offer your explanation on phenomenon of negative emotional storages at our body.yes I found the theory that body cells carry emotional memories to be a true one. During my 39 years of clinical experience, numerous times I have witnessed the emotional reactions of my patients/clients to soft tissue mobilization." if you don't believe in this theory, or in treatment room do not facing this phenomenon then make it clear. If you believe in this theory and know where this emotions are stored, then say it. It will be honest and respectful and I will apologize for my mistake. But meantime this is not a mistake.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.
What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.
No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
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Raven, where do you find the time to post on here, given all the university cocktail parties you must attend?
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Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real.
Chris never denied that; his point rested on the fact that phantom limb pain is very real.
You misunderstood his point, and then reacted to your misunderstanding, rather than what he actually said.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:
Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
-
-
I do show you respect. Please answer my questions of previous post and then all will be good.
Ravensara Travillian said:
As long as you continue to call me dishonest, Boris, I will have nothing more to do with you.
If you really want me to engage with you, then you will show at least a minimum amount of personal respect, and you will stop the verbal abuse. If not, you won't.
Boris Prilutsky said:on what personal insult you are talking about?dishonesty this is my opinion how you behaving. Please answer on my questions "in regards to bookmarking" please offer definition of yours on this phenomenon,as well offer your explanation on phenomenon of negative emotional storages at our body.yes I found the theory that body cells carry emotional memories to be a true one. During my 39 years of clinical experience, numerous times I have witnessed the emotional reactions of my patients/clients to soft tissue mobilization." if you don't believe in this theory, or in treatment room do not facing this phenomenon then make it clear. If you believe in this theory and know where this emotions are stored, then say it. It will be honest and respectful and I will apologize for my mistake. But meantime this is not a mistake.
Ravensara Travillian said:Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.
What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.
No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
-
-
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on.
Oh, dear. I'd really hate to degrade the quality of this discourse.
Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
You mean like, "don't be an ass"? That kind of polite?
Gary W Addis said:Ms Travillian, I go by your own words. A few weeks ago during an earlier generation of this thread you lectured me on useless details of the anatomy of the brain; you listed in detail your academic and professional accomplishments. Suitably unimpressed, I reminded all once again of your superior attitude.
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on. Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.
What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.
No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.
"non-judgmental, open mind"--right. Excuse me while I cough up a hairball.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
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Christopher please. Answer.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Christopher. I never comment, that phantom limb syndrome is a 'bookmarks”. In this case limb already do not exist. In my article I described a hands on mobilization of shoulder . When I talked(not in article in comment) about phantom syndrome I have stated that scientists also do not know exactly where this sensitization of pains are stored. Many different opinions on the subject. We just know that this phenomenon exists. In many cases science and especially in medical fields know much less than we are don't know. As well many phenomenons cannot be explained.
You said: If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. “
I personally cannot recall that you proposed/offered any explanation. Please do it or refer us where in this discussion you proposed some views. Please do.
On the other part of your post I will reply later on.
Christopher A. Moyer said:
Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too.
Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession.
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Being a "cold clinician" is a massive timesaver, because I don't have to waste time caring about my clients or students.
That way, I can attend cocktail parties galore, where I label brain diagrams to impress other guests, before jetting off to Aruba on the private jet I bought with all that grant money.
Christopher A. Moyer said:Raven, where do you find the time to post on here, given all the university cocktail parties you must attend?
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Being a "cold clinician" is a massive timesaver, because I don't have to waste time caring about my clients or students.
That way, I can attend cocktail parties galore, where I label brain diagrams to impress other guests, before jetting off to Aruba on the private jet I bought with all that grant money.
Sweet. I never get invited to cocktail parties. It must be because I'm an ass.
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