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Systems science thinking in anatomy
this is moved over from the other thread "Body Cells Carry Emotional Memories", where Gordon expressed his beliefs on the anatomy of emotion and trauma.
Gordon, thank you for putting it out there to respond to.
I am going to put some facts out for your consideration, but I don't have any interest in fighting about it.
Accept what I say or reject it, as you wish. But remember, I am responding to your ideas; I am not attacking you for having them.
Body/mind are one.
In one sense, I will agree with you--there is no mystical dualistic "other" dimension involved. Body and mind are material + process + emergent properties (more complex or self-organizing) effects that arise out of interactions among other parts of the system).
But just because they are both part of the same continuum does not mean they are identical, nor that they carry out each other's processes. This is a point on which we apparently differ. When you argue that memories are stored in body cells, then you are conflating different things that the mind and body do interactively.
One example is that fear is stored in the shoulders...Its a neurological reflex.
There is a Buddhist proverb about not mistaking the moon for the finger pointing to it. In your first sentence, it sounds like you are confusing the reaction in the shoulders (the finger pointing to the moon) with the fear (the moon itself). In your second sentence, it sounds like you are clearer that the nervous and muscular reaction is in response to the fear, not that it's the fear itself.
If anyone wants to argue at this point that it's mere semantics, take it up with the Buddhists--they drew this distinction thousands of years ago, because it's an important one.
So immagin a young child that lives in an abusive household...Say the dad is an alchohalic and beats up the mother every weekend that he is drunk...So every time the child sees and hears the abuse his shoulders raise up to his neck ...The child is stuck in this family and every time he sees his dad, his shoulders raise up in fear.he cant escape the situation...That fear is locked into his cells,,his entire body/mind.
That's a conditioned neuromuscular response in reaction to the fear. You can break the connection between the fear and the response, so that he can learn not to react in that way, even though he still may feel the fear. It's the finger pointing to the moon again, the fear being in the brain, not in the epithelial cells or muscle cells where the response is. It's not dualism for parts of a unified whole to carry out different tasks from one another--body and mind are one, but complementary.
.A caved in chest implicates poor self esteem.
Except when it means a genetic disorder, or a traumatic accident, or the sequelae of an infectious or nutritional or metabolic disorder, or something else.
In the 18th and 19th centuries, scientists used to think very simplistically about cause and effect. A causes B, that simple. And there are still a few cases where that kind of thinking is totally appropriate:
- Huntington's disease (HD), a severe neurodegenerative disease that killed the folksinger Woody Guthrie, is so perfectly associated with the genes for HD that some people who are at risk for inheriting it refuse to get the test. Knowing that they have the genotype means they are doomed to get the disease, as 100% of people with that genotype who live into middle age--when it strikes--get it. They don't want the certain knowledge of their own future hanging over them, so they choose not to get the test.
- Except for one recorded case of recovery in the entire history of the world, rabies is 100% fatal if left untreated. You get rabies, you don't treat it within the appropriate window--then you die. It's a given.
Except for a few isolated cases like that, though, to say that some A always causes some B, or that some C is always caused by some D: we just can't do it. The body and the environment are too complex, and some conditions have many different causes. For the cases where it does look like that--HD, rabies--we can draw a picture like this:
http://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.170/old-www/2005-Fall/6170/ps4/graph...
meaning the circle on the left (the gene, the virus) caused the circle on the right (terrible disease).
The kind of overly simplistic thinking that went on in the 1700s and 1800s--I call it the "vending machine model"--led to pseudosciences such as phrenology, where people believed that by feeling bumps on a person's skull, that they could read their psychology or moral character. We have known for a long time that things just aren't as simple as we used to believe, and we can't always put in the same input and guarantee that we will get the same output, as a vending machine does.
This is where systems thinking comes in. Rather than just saying A means B, we take into account the whole network of causes that can result in a whole network of effects. A little change in cause can lead to a big change in effect, or vice-versa--this is where the saying about a butterfly's wings flapping in China comes from. One tiny deletion in a chromosome can mean that a baby dies an agonizing death shortly after birth. Or, the other way around, changes in only 1-2% of our DNA means the difference between a human and a chimp.
This is what a network of interactions at the genetic level looks like:
http://asajj.roswellpark.org/huberman/BIR572/19b.SGAresults.gif
You'll see that there are lots of dots that are quite far apart, and you have to have multiple connections to get from one to the other. So for cause-and-effect chains like that, there are lots of events that have to happen. There are relatively fewer direct connections between dots, like the HD and rabies examples above (100% correlation). Note that the network doesn't represent HD or rabies; I'm just using that one to illustrate a point about how networks work in general.
And because those connections represent interactions, you will begin to see emergent properties from those interactions showing up as well. Those properties act in the network of case and effect, making the picture even more complex than it was originally. This is how modern anatomists think of interactions in the body, both at the molecular and at higher levels.
My recommendation, if massage truly wants to become a healthcare profession, is that we align ourselves with this kind of systems science understanding of anatomy, based on the evidence, and neither oversimply cause and effect, nor confuse the finger and the moon itself.
Thank you for putting your ideas out there for me to react to, Gordon, and I am not attacking you; I am just pushing back against the model you use to explain why I think this one is better for us.
Feel free to take it or leave it as you like; I'm pretty disgusted with the "professional" debate atmosphere here, and I don't plan to get in a fight about it.
Gordon wrote:
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
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Sorry for the late response...I just accidentally discovered it. A five year old child doesnt have the brain development or skill set to manually hold his shoulders down when he sees his abusive father coming toward him aggressively. Every single person that I have startled, there shoulders went up.. lol Try it...its a reflex...Its like if I flicked my hand in front of your face, your eyes would blink...And sure if you knew I was going to do it...and you prepared yourself for it..yea maybe they wouldn't blink.. And also I agree with what you are saying... There can be several reasons for postural distortions...The way I think is that as far as bodywork and massage goes.. It all works... For me personally,, if my back is sore..I will go to someone thats going to stretch me and put an elbow in my trigger point, not someone that uses some type of energy work or acupressure meridian system...I believe in science, all the way... However, I also know that ..........SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THE PLACEBO EFFECT IS REAL.. lol Anyway I just massage people..What I do is so simple, and it works more often then not.. Whatever presenting system someone comes to me with for a massage(head ache, back pain, arm pain.whatever. I simply rub them, look for sore spots( trigger points or whatever people wanna call em) and work on eliminating them...And as long as its in the belly of a muscle.. More often then not. Their presenting symptoms just go away.. No matter the truth or reality of what people are saying or standing for in here. I will just keep doing the same thing...lol I'm not a scientist or a new age hippie dippy. And because the placebo effect is real. What people think has a major effect on how they heal...Gosh just the other day I had a women come in with a painful shoulder and neck problem...She had gone through several months of chiropractic with no results..She looked so stressed and unsure of her pain and situation. She said she must have a pinched nerve. So I put my hand on her shoulder , looked her in the eyes and said. "Don't worry. I've been a professional massage therapist for 26 years. You are going to feel much better after this massage.You're going to be just fine. Chiropractors don't understand muscle pain like I do. I'm highly skilled." And I say it with confidence..And after I said that. I saw the tension just leave her face. Of course I really didnt know if I could help her at all..But I also know that knots in muscles are responsible for 85% of the pain people experience. So I just did my simple massage, hunting for sore spots..and sure enough she had a bad trigger point in her right rhomboid, another one in her upper rt trap..another one in one of the extensor muscles on the same side of the neck. And a really bad trigger point in the front of her shoulder near the deltoid pec junction. So I eliminated those trigger points...She was pain free after the massage...She was very happy...Of course I cant do that all the time..but a lot of times I do...The point I want to make with this little discussion is .. Her healing started when she believed in me. THE PLACEBO EFFECT IS REAL. And Ive really started using it this last year..And my massage is much more effective now.Sure I dont have scientific proof.. But I see it in the response of my clients Maybe I'm completely off and wrong with the shoulders and fear thing..thats just an interesting intellectual discussion for me. But utilizing the placebo effect has enhanced my bodywork.. So if someone tells me they got healed when this witch doctor waved a magic wand over them... I believe it.. lol I hope you are still around to read this? And sorry for any miss spelled words and incorrect punctuations. No matter what truth is..I just massage people to the best of my abilities.. And if I had to pass some sort of bodywork exam.for certification..No matter what it was based on.. Scientific principles or metaphysical concepts, Chinese medicine or whatever..Id probably flunk it . lol Ok I'm rambling now. Thanks for finding my comments interesting... Yours in Health, Gordon
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That book sounds very interesting. And yea, you're right. Some people are just not going to get better. I fully accept that. But that doesn't bother me anymore. Because its the same for all of us. By all of us I mean every doctor, chiropractor, acupuncturist , massage therapist , bodyworker, and healer on the planet. So I don't worry about it. Plus, I'm a massage therapist, and don't have the political responsibility to heal everyone of all their aches, pains and problems like those with first physicion status( chiropractors, MDs, osteopaths ). So the pressure is off, so to speak..I just have to give them a really good massage. However I also know that trigger points are directly responsible for 85% of all peoples aches and pains. And that they (trigger points) are involved in 95% of all pain syndromes. So, given those statistics, that gives a good massage therapist a stealthy advantage over all other health care providers when it comes to providing significant pain relief for people( I'm just telling you how I think ).. So if 85% of all pain is directly cause by trigger points.. That means statistically I should be able to help 8.5 people for every 10 that come into see me that are suffering from some kind of pain problem. Now given the fact that I'm not perfect, semi neurotic, don't. know everything( yet) and some people just dont want to get better.. I figure that its safe for me to assume that I can significantly help every 7 out of 10 people that come in to see me with a pain problem. So that gives me confidence to tell people that I can help them...I don't care how long they have suffered . Or how long they have seen a chiropractor, doctor or other health care providers, including other massage therapists( unless its a really good massage therapist) they've seen. If they have ONLY seen a chiropractor, medical doctor, or nobody..I feel really confident. Anyway in the case of the lady with the neck and shoulder problem I wrote about. Before I said anything to her or had her get on the table I palpated her upper trap and found a very significant trigger point. BINGO ! I felt more confident). So thats when I told her "Don't worry. I've been a professional massage therapist for 26 years. You are going to feel much better after this massage.You're going to be just fine. Chiropractors don't understand muscle pain like I do. I'm highly skilled." Now say that I couldnt palpate a significant trigger point when I touched her upper trap(or where ever). Then I would just tell her the truth. Don't worry, 85% of all pain syndromes are caused by muscle pain..And muscle pain is involved in 95% of all pain syndromes.. Only 15% of the time is it directly caused by nerve , disc, or worse yet , internal organ pain. So if any part of your pain is muscular. We are going to get rid of it. It might take a few sessions, but we should get you feeling better here real soon. I also tell them Im not going to try and get tons of money out of then by telling them they need to keep coming back forever.. I let them know that after four massages, they should feel significantly better. In the case they are not better after the first massage. I suggest they try one more time. I will use different procedures. Then after that, if I cant help them. I say Im sorry I couldn't help you. Do you want me to try and find somebody that might be able too? I have a medical doctors cards in my wallet( he is a client of mine). In the rare case they are worse. I apologize and give them their money back. Thats just sort of a general idea of what I might say. Because I'm confident, sincere , and honest. The placebo effect is in play and working. Even the ones I cant help often times come back. And sometimes clients I feel confident about, I can't help or get worse. And some clients I'm sure I can't help, are miraculously cured..lol But because of statistics, my experience, my confidence, and the placebo effect. I'm able to help more often then not.. And that's about as much as any body worker can do. I honestly think its more important how I talk, then what I do.
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Well you maybe right? But yea, its important how we talk to a client..Bed side manner so to speak...
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Uhm, not trying to say I have perfect bedside manor lol I think most good massage therapists have a positive attitude and care about helping their clients...Everything I say is all my opinion, that's all.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on
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Gordon I agree on the importance of the talk. I would add attitude even without speech can say a lot. Our work is a balancing act between actual correction through manual manipulation, power of touch and encouraging a confident attitude nourishing well being. I don't mean getting the client to believe in me, but to believe in their ability to be better.
placebo effect
n.A beneficial effect in a patient following a particular treatment that arises from the patient's expectations concerning the treatment rather than from the treatment itself.http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/placebo+effectWhile the Placebo Effect may remind some of a snake oil salesman arriving in town on his wagon, it is very real and part of any healing. If you can't get the support of the patient, you fight an up hill battle.When I give the scientific reason for something I am usually asked "Now say that in a way I can make sense of it". If you work on a scientist be sure you speak scientifically. For all others say it also in ways they relate to. Most of our clients are not scientists and do not require scientific answers. Much of the arguments in the threads, over language or how to say, disregard the client. If you reach the client and help them to reach a higher level of wellness, you have done well. This can happen even if you don't speak the clients language but conveyed that attitude of confidence that leads to improvement.We are different from other healthcare professionals. We generally spend more time, we foster connection, we inspire, we are present. Whether or not this can be scientifically verified by science does not change that it exists. Keep helping others to be better in every way you can my fellow MTs. Viva la difference!
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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Hi Raven.
At this post you proposed information related to general education related to body /mind medicine. It is absolutely obvious to me that you didn't read carefully my article .
Like I stated in our previous discussion “Body cells carry emotional memory”theory as a name wasn't proposed by me but by one who have practiced physical methods of treatment, and observed cases, when therapist touching particular body part, patient releasing emotions. Name “body cells carry emotional memory” is absolutely correct definition , because no one knows where this negative emotions stored. Our body including brain compost by trillions of cells, and somewhere these emotions are stored, and absolutely obvious to me that massage therapy triggering this extremely important for clients health, negative emotions releases. Just for general information and to avoid future misunderstandings I would like you to know, that I never proposed and posting general information, but only related to the treatment room. More than this, I strongly believe that general education for students in massage programs, as well as a continued education format should be offered as extra curriculum activities. In such a case, therapist’s mind will be focused on most important in our occupation, is to deliver results/ health benefits by means of hands on massage. Now I am worry that the message of my short article was somehow distracted . Not to repeat myself, I would like to invite practitioners who didn't have opportunity to read my:” Body cells carry emotional memory” article where I believe could be found practical for daily use very important information.
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Boris Prilutsky
"In such a case, therapist’s mind will be focused on most important in our occupation, is to deliver results/ health benefits by means of hands on massage."
Results by hands on massage, that is really what it is all about.
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Yea, hands on... Its amazing what massage can do... I mean it really is... Ive been doing it 26 years..And Im still freaked out about it...
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agree with you Gordon.Honestly it isn't possible to get enough satisfactions from clinical outcomes of our work . Simplicity and therapeutic power practically cannot stop to amaze me. This facts constantly stimulating and fueling my passion and love to our occupation.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:Yea, hands on... Its amazing what massage can do... I mean it really is... Ive been doing it 26 years..And Im still freaked out about it...
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