Response to "Knot in a muscle' post

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on May 17, 2011 at 10:40am

Thank you Boris, I look forward to reading Medical Massage vol 1 & Therapeutic Massage, which I just now ordered.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Daniel. I am glad that you liked our discussions and agree in  balance both the scientific knowledge and the intuitive nature of our work.more information about Dr. Ross and his works at his site www.aesculapbooks.com

Best wishes.

Boris

Daniel Cohen said:

Boris could you give more bibliographic information on the Ross book? I am unable to find it. Also thank you for relating the story of the Gypsy woman. You illustrate well the need to balance both the scientific knowledge and the intuitive nature of our work.

Thank you.

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on May 17, 2011 at 10:51am

Dr. Turchaninov I am finding your posts very informative abd as Boris said about my posts, I am in general agreement. If we are to do the best service to our clients we can not always avoid causing pain. Following the link provided by Boris I have ordered two of your books and look forward to reading in greater detail.

 

From some of Boris' description of Russian Medical Massage it appears to have some similarities to the Korean martial art therapy I have studied, Hwal Bup Do. Of course effective work often has similarities since we are working on the human body. Sharing the differences let's us evaluate and adapt our own work as is found relevant. I believe we can never learn enough as there are always situations where something else may be needed.

 

I await the arrival of your books.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

It is completely correct that palpatory skills are very important for any practitioner. However there are much more tools the practitioner may use. The pain itself is very important diagnostic as well as treatment tool. Thus during let say trigger point therapy (TPT) the practitioner must activate pain receptors while applying pressure but he or she must do it correctly. The first critical step in successful elimination of trigger point is elimination of the condition of hyperirritability of pain receptors or in other words calm receptors down. As long as this condition remains the patient will resist treatment and it makes it longer and less successful. The restoration of the normal threshold of pain receptors activation and elimination of hyperirritability require careful 'playing' with these receptors while working in the affected area. The fluctuation in pressure, electric vibration, observation of patient reactions, evaluation of palpatory information, activation of central control trigger etc. allows to achieve stable clinical results quickly.

In regard to 'good massage suppose to feel good' concept. It is completely correct when the practitioner deals with healthy clients or stress accumulation. At the same time for the patient with chronic (sometimes for years) pain as a result of mistreated somatic condition the 'feels good approach' far from enough. For those clients even moderate application of pressure is very painful procedure. At the same time the restoration of the normal threshold of pain receptors is a first must component and unfortunately pain receptors never 'happy' about it especially at the beginning. The practitioner's job is to explain to the patient all details of the therapy before it starts.

Dr Ross Turchaninov

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Permalink Reply by Dr. Ross Turchaninov on May 17, 2011 at 12:29pm

Dear Daniel

 

Thank you for e-mail. I am really glad that you found my posts helpful. I hope that you will like books as well. I tried to accumulate as much as possible theoretical and clinical information under one roof. Also be sure to visit www.scienceofmassage.com where you may read many important publications in the Journal of Massage Science and see protocols from the Volume I in the video format in the Video Library.

 

Sincerely   Dr. Ross Turchaninov

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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on May 18, 2011 at 1:53pm

Other therapists tell me they can feel knots...but when I ask them What a Jump sign is,, or a Local Twitch Response.  They don't know.

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on May 18, 2011 at 8:39pm

Hi Gordon.usually  hypertonus not bulging to the point that one can feel like"knots".however usually when at the time of examination you pressing a bit on the higher resting tone muscles,they like rigid and do not really pushing back.  it is sometime difficult to feel it under fingers.But because in most cases hypertonus producing pains  in certain human body segment as well associated with active trigger points it is not difficult for us to define area, to  mobilize it correctly as well to detect pinpoint localization of higher intensity of  pain and to address it by appropriate compression as it proposed in article. at the time myogelosis and other new formations are bulging and can be detected by fingers, As I stated in my previous post it is contraindicated to compress intensively against it.I hope everyone will agree this is not so complicated. I would say to work designed step-by-step protocol it even easier.

Best wishes.

Boris

Best wishes.

Boris

Gordon J. Wallis said:

Other therapists tell me they can feel knots...but when I ask them What a Jump sign is,, or a Local Twitch Response.  They don't know.

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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on June 8, 2011 at 3:30pm

To me, more often then not. If it hurts good..Its a healing massage. I always explain to my clients that the Hurt part, is their body telling them something is wrong(contracted muscle fibers or whatever).  And that the part that feels good, is their body giving them feedback that what Im doing is healing .Or it wouldnt feel good..... Again they are just words ( Hurt Good )...But that concept is very important when it comes to healing.   Like if you were to vocalize during a deep tissue massage,if its a good one...You might say..".OH gawd thats sore, but it feels good, Don't  Stop.".

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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 7, 2011 at 9:49am

Boris, what I'm referring to is not bulging, but sorta like a mobile mouse beneath, or in muscle, not bulging above skin.  When pressed, they scoot away a quarter inch.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Dr Ross.

To all  what  you have said I would like to add  that often MTs proposing “diagnosis”: “you having muscle knots “  and “let me help you get rid of it”. Very often this kind of treatment and up with  vigorous pressure on so called “muscle knots”. In most cases this “muscle knots “ is a new formations  that of course  bulging  and therefore one can feel it  under fingers. Just using the opportunity would like to remind  to everyone that this is contraindicated to press against any  new formations  that of course  bulging including but not limited  to lipomas, any other tumors, cystic formation etc. let's keep in mind if  one will decide to press against mentioned above formations one can cause irreversible as well very significant damages.

Best wishes.

Boris

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 7, 2011 at 10:01am

Hi Gary.

you are saying:"When pressed, they scoot away a quarter inch."it is difficult for me to understand on  what phenomenon we are talking about therefore cannot reply, but using the opportunity and given to the importance would like to repeat:"

often MTs proposing “diagnosis”: “you having muscle knots “  and “let me help you get rid of it”. Very often this kind of treatment and up with  vigorous pressure on so called “muscle knots”. In most cases this “muscle knots “ is a new formations  that of course  bulging  and therefore one can feel it  under fingers. Just using the opportunity would like to remind  to everyone that this is contraindicated to press against any  new formations  that of course  bulging including but not limited  to lipomas, any other tumors, cystic formation etc. let's keep in mind if  one will decide to press against mentioned above formations one can cause irreversible as well very significant damages.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gary W Addis said:

Boris, what I'm referring to is not bulging, but sorta like a mobile mouse beneath, or in muscle, not bulging above skin.  When pressed, they scoot away a quarter inch.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Dr Ross.

To all  what  you have said I would like to add  that often MTs proposing “diagnosis”: “you having muscle knots “  and “let me help you get rid of it”. Very often this kind of treatment and up with  vigorous pressure on so called “muscle knots”. In most cases this “muscle knots “ is a new formations  that of course  bulging  and therefore one can feel it  under fingers. Just using the opportunity would like to remind  to everyone that this is contraindicated to press against any  new formations  that of course  bulging including but not limited  to lipomas, any other tumors, cystic formation etc. let's keep in mind if  one will decide to press against mentioned above formations one can cause irreversible as well very significant damages.

Best wishes.

Boris

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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 7, 2011 at 11:00am

   I find these in many bodies I've worked on, incl my fellow students--and they in turn find them on me.  They are about the size of a small person's fingernail or smaller, they roll around even before pressure is applied.  Light effleurage can reveal them if the practitioner is paying attention.  When pressed, they usually don't elicit pain--the mobile ones I'm talking about.  Others of about the same size and density do feel somewhat tender, but the mobile one don't. If pressed lightly, after a few seconds they scoot away just enough to escape the pressure.   In such cases i follow the mvmt but apply even less pressure to either side and slightly on the spot itself and after a minute or so it often dissolves.

 

The otehr kind I mentioned are not like bumps or knots at all, but along the length of a muscle, usually nearing its junction with other muscles.  When I feel it begin to move I lighten  pressure and stay right there till it flattens and relaxes, usually a couple of minutes.  Before I learned to slow down and there was movement of the strand, the clients always reported that although he could feel the "jump", it wasn't painful.

 

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Gary.

you are saying:"When pressed, they scoot away a quarter inch."it is difficult for me to understand on  what phenomenon we are talking about therefore cannot reply, but using the opportunity and given to the importance would like to repeat:"

often MTs proposing “diagnosis”: “you having muscle knots “  and “let me help you get rid of it”. Very often this kind of treatment and up with  vigorous pressure on so called “muscle knots”. In most cases this “muscle knots “ is a new formations  that of course  bulging  and therefore one can feel it  under fingers. Just using the opportunity would like to remind  to everyone that this is contraindicated to press against any  new formations  that of course  bulging including but not limited  to lipomas, any other tumors, cystic formation etc. let's keep in mind if  one will decide to press against mentioned above formations one can cause irreversible as well very significant damages.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gary W Addis said:

Boris, what I'm referring to is not bulging, but sorta like a mobile mouse beneath, or in muscle, not bulging above skin.  When pressed, they scoot away a quarter inch.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Dr Ross.

To all  what  you have said I would like to add  that often MTs proposing “diagnosis”: “you having muscle knots “  and “let me help you get rid of it”. Very often this kind of treatment and up with  vigorous pressure on so called “muscle knots”. In most cases this “muscle knots “ is a new formations  that of course  bulging  and therefore one can feel it  under fingers. Just using the opportunity would like to remind  to everyone that this is contraindicated to press against any  new formations  that of course  bulging including but not limited  to lipomas, any other tumors, cystic formation etc. let's keep in mind if  one will decide to press against mentioned above formations one can cause irreversible as well very significant damages.

Best wishes.

Boris

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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on July 7, 2011 at 11:13am

Gary Ive never felt or worried or noticed anything like that before? So? There's all kinds of things that move and squish out of the way when you massage..All I care about is that the massage feels really good..And if we come across a sore spot, I eliminate it in  good way. 

s
Gary W Addis said:

   I find these in many bodies I've worked on, incl my fellow students--and they in turn find them on me.  They are about the size of a small person's fingernail or smaller, they roll around even before pressure is applied.  Light effleurage can reveal them if the practitioner is paying attention.  When pressed, they usually don't elicit pain--the mobile ones I'm talking about.  Others of about the same size and density do feel somewhat tender, but the mobile one don't. If pressed lightly, after a few seconds they scoot away just enough to escape the pressure.   In such cases i follow the mvmt but apply even less pressure to either side and slightly on the spot itself and after a minute or so it often dissolves.

 

The otehr kind I mentioned are not like bumps or knots at all, but along the length of a muscle, usually nearing its junction with other muscles.  When I feel it begin to move I lighten  pressure and stay right there till it flattens and relaxes, usually a couple of minutes.  Before I learned to slow down and there was movement of the strand, the clients always reported that although he could feel the "jump", it wasn't painful.

 

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Gary.

you are saying:"When pressed, they scoot away a quarter inch."it is difficult for me to understand on  what phenomenon we are talking about therefore cannot reply, but using the opportunity and given to the importance would like to repeat:"

often MTs proposing “diagnosis”: “you having muscle knots “  and “let me help you get rid of it”. Very often this kind of treatment and up with  vigorous pressure on so called “muscle knots”. In most cases this “muscle knots “ is a new formations  that of course  bulging  and therefore one can feel it  under fingers. Just using the opportunity would like to remind  to everyone that this is contraindicated to press against any  new formations  that of course  bulging including but not limited  to lipomas, any other tumors, cystic formation etc. let's keep in mind if  one will decide to press against mentioned above formations one can cause irreversible as well very significant damages.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gary W Addis said:

Boris, what I'm referring to is not bulging, but sorta like a mobile mouse beneath, or in muscle, not bulging above skin.  When pressed, they scoot away a quarter inch.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Dr Ross.

To all  what  you have said I would like to add  that often MTs proposing “diagnosis”: “you having muscle knots “  and “let me help you get rid of it”. Very often this kind of treatment and up with  vigorous pressure on so called “muscle knots”. In most cases this “muscle knots “ is a new formations  that of course  bulging  and therefore one can feel it  under fingers. Just using the opportunity would like to remind  to everyone that this is contraindicated to press against any  new formations  that of course  bulging including but not limited  to lipomas, any other tumors, cystic formation etc. let's keep in mind if  one will decide to press against mentioned above formations one can cause irreversible as well very significant damages.

Best wishes.

Boris

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 7, 2011 at 12:39pm

I hear you, Gordon.  You are saying, I think, that if it is painful, work to remove it. If it isn't painful or otherwise troublesome, best course may be to leave it alone.

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Permalink Reply by Lucianna Johnston on July 7, 2011 at 1:34pm

THANK YOU!! I appreciate your scientific explanation....will read up.

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