Response to "Knot in a muscle' post

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 12, 2011 at 2:23pm

Boris, you admit that Gordon never "challenged" the presented information.  You and Ross, however, immediately "challenged" merhods used by others.  THAT, Boris, is the attitude that has made this and so many threads you are involved in cat fights.  No, Gordon did not "challenge" anyone else's methods-- was he supposed to?  The thread of this one and the other relates to the release of TPS; several responded, explaining how they work.  Ross leaped in, exclaiming, NO no no you must not work that way it is harmful!  THAT, Boris is arrogant and flat out unethical.

Now suddenly you want to make this argument about me?  And you want to accuse others of creating distractions?

Alright, prove that you are not. And let's all  get back to a discussion of TPS.  What is your chosen method of treating them?

We are taught in class to use whatever is available, including TPs charts and pain referral pattern charts.  We are taught that gliding across a TP will not reveal its presence to either the therapist or the patient, if it is in deeper layers.  That deep tissue work will find stuff that lighter work will not.  Once found, direct pressure on the referring tp for 20 seconds to a minute or more, at about a pain level of 7.  But, we are cautioned that John Doe's 7 may be a Bob Doe's 10 or a 2-- that we should rely more on tissue response (guarding, etc) than to verbal cues.  From Benjamin's articles and webinars I have learned that AIS often aids TP release.  This is just a bit of what I have learned.  I am confident that you would enjoy a massage from me, even one year into my schooling.  In clinic I have given about two dozen massages: one complained I didn't use enough pressure, one complained that I used too much, everyone else loved my work, rating me 10 for excellent on a scale of 10.

Some release TP and other tensions solely through the usage of energy work; some use only reflexology.   Gordon uses PNT, whatever that is.  How do you work TPs?  Be precise, please. 

 

Please, friend Boris, forget your argument with Gordon, and with me about the treatment of Gordon.  Let's discuss trigger points.

 

Boris Prilutsky said:

Gary. I really would like to continue discussion with you but you mixed a lot of things and in order

to reply let's clarified . Again please remember in order for us not to be arrogant we  will have to discuss this  post subject and in professional manner.

You say:” I defended you awhile back when you were being attacked. There is a right and a wrong.  “

Gary.I do remember and appreciated that you took part in my discussion”human body cells carry emotional memory”

in article I have stated that no one knows where this emotions are stored  and will be responsible to assume that this negative emotional memories are stored somewhere within brain but body parts “ bookmarking”this memories and therefore when we mobilizing this soft tissues it triggering important  emotional releases. two people arrogantly disrupt discussion by telling that this is wrong to claim that storage of this memories is somewhere in brain and it is terrible to use word “ bookmarking”. Many times and repeatedly I said that they distracting very important conversation, and that no one knows where these storage is and repeatedly I asked those people to post their opinion on where about the storages, and what word instead of “ bookmarking” they would use. Instead to offer explanation this people continued to disrupt, and   it's true you post and you  stated, that they should offer opinion or not to disrupt. I did appreciate your participants at my discussion. To some degree Gordon attempted to disrupt this conversation and  you  supporting it by saying:” And it is flat wrong to label Gordon's methods ridiculous until, like Therese, you have experienced it for yourself. “

Now please  explain me what is it “Gordon's methods”?????

this was the problem of  conversation destruction. Gordon never challenge presented information, but every time and multiple times he made different claims some of them ridiculous such is claiming trigger of  Clasp knife reflex as an methodology for trigger point therapy. I never called his methods ridiculous because I don't know what his method is. But his claim was ridiculous. Now please explain what is Gordon's methodology??? Then maybe we will continue our discussion.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

you said: Clasp knife and golgi tendon reflex may be anatomically the same, but not in action. “

By nature this is two absolutely different functions/ actions and having nothing to do with anatomical structures.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

You claimed that Dr. Ross hijacked something, or was arrogant in some of his posts.

Gary.The best service that you can do to this discussion is if you will direct us(all on the record) to this  posts. I guarantee you if it will be wrong statements I will say so. Dr. Ross is a very close friend but sometime professionaly we disagree and discussing it with mutual respect and in professional manner. I have a cousin who's very good expert in our fields. Exactly like Dr. Ross my cousin started in surgery departments and come out to medical massage field .All my life and until day off today I was much closer to him then to my sister. Pretty often I lacked with him in debates and we not sparing each other from express professional opinion. There is no such a thing in our professional mentality. As a professional Dr. Ross grew up in the same professional culture and adopted the same professional mentality.this I know for a fact .BTW. He is out teaching and most likely today will be back. Let's see maybe he will reply by himself.

Regards.

Boris

Gary W Addis said:

Boris,your friend in his very first post attacked, claiming that light TP pressure always results in myelosis-- IOW, the doctor says that everyone must do it the way Turchininov says to do it.  That attitude is arrogant and just wrong.  There are several ways to heal a spinal problem; likewise, there are several hundred proven methodologies for working with muscles and fascia.Incidentally, Ross did not start this thread-- he hijacked it when he attacked statements made by others.

 

Gordon has consistently said that he is not trying to tell anyone else how to do anything, merely how successfully  he does it-- Ross insists that his way is the only way.  So who is the offender here?  I don't think it is Gordon, who as is his right has been defending himself. 

 

Boris, Ross, and to a lesser degree you, have been arrogant.  I haven't noticed any arrogance from Gordon.  Arrogance, know it all attitude really burns my toast, especially when it belittles other therapists.  I defended you awhile back when you were being attacked.  There is a right and a wrong.  And it is flat wrong to label Gordon's methods ridiculous until, like Therese, you have experienced it for yourself.  Hell, Boris, I am a mere student, and even I know that.

 

Clasp knife and golgi tendon reflex may be anatomically the same, but not in action.  I have viewed and read everything that is freely available about AIS (Active Isolated Stretching), which may be what you are referring to.  Kaufman, mistakenly I believe, is trying to hold his methodology very close: he wants to charge big bucks to teach it to individual therapists.  Does it work? Hell, I don't know--but neither do you.  Until we have experienced the treatment for ourselves we cannot say unequivocally that it does not.  If someone claims that hey heal a joint by severing ligaments with a knife, yeah, that should be challenged.  Only you and Ross are making the assumption that PNT is in some way harmful.

 

Disagree, Boris, by all means disagree.  RESPECTFULLY disagree, and give your reasons for disagreeing.

Boris Prilutsky said:

• Gary .I never claimed that Gordon is lying about results achievement. The problem is in his style to manage professional conversation. Please read again all his posts and pay attention on language and articulation and content of this posts. More Dr. Ross tried to pay him respect in communication more arrogant he became . Let's not pay attention how he replied to my posts. Pay attention on his reply to Dr.Ross’ posts. Just read again all his posts. This site is an educational site where professionals can exchange ideas and to learn each from other. Trigger point discussion was initiated by Dr. Ross by offering article on the subject. Respectfully it should continue around topics of trigger point therapy including if there is room to challenge presented material or/and post questions if something not clear. Gordon constantly disrupted discussion and disregard our articles by proposing controversial and sometime ridiculous claims like he treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex . In fact this reflex is possible to trigger in case and secondary too difficult pathological conditions and it nothing have to do with trigger point therapies.He didn't challenge proposed information just distracted .
• You are a student at massage program and happens that you know about clasp knife reflex. But many other maybe not and will start to continue to repeat this nonsense including communicating with medical doctors etc. I personally just got enough of all of this and am positive that it was right decision to challenge his posts . Please read again all his posts and tell me if this was respectful professional conversation on his end ? Just don't forget to reply to this question . Up front thank you .You said you trust Gordon. Good for you. Now please answer to me, Do you support his way of handling this discussions? Do you support him making these claims, and many of them ? Will appreciate your answer.
• >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
• you said :”I just don't think it is possible for a therapist to incite the golgi tendon reflex on a massage table. “ Yes Gary if possible. appropriately administrate passive stretching will activate  stretch receptors  and will trigger stretch reflex. We taking advantage on this when providing comprehensive treatment in cases of muscular pathology as well in sports massage we using it for maintenance of normal resting muscular tone.
• Regards.
• Boris

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on July 12, 2011 at 2:59pm

How about a slight change of subject.. Forget the Kaufman techniques...There are tons of massage systems, styles, and various deep tissue systems that directly or indirectly release trigger points with varying degrees of success.  Ive always kept things really simple...I dont like to think very much when doing my work...Lets say you come accross a painful trigger point, say in the lower lumbar.. Whats wrong with simply pressing on it in a way that hurts good to the client?  Often enough, that works...and its simple...I mean my massage career was jump started when I accidentally cured a Dr. of his back pain by giving him a simple shiatsu massage. The only danger or problem I see would be excessive pressure...And only a beginning therapist would do that.  To me.. trigger points are simple...Its good to have an idea of referd pain patters, thats helpful...but.  I just dont see the complicatedness you seem to be into?  Or that it has to be done your way, or it wont work? or could be dangerous?  Soft tissue release is a very good therapy...They dont even talk about trigger points, and  that system, works great on them...without knowledge of your protocols...However, Im sure what you do works.  But I hardly think your approach, although well thought out, is nessicary for removal of trigger points.  Thats all...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 12, 2011 at 3:38pm

Gary. It is pretty long post . But this time I will   answer. If you will not understand what I trying to deliver to you then let's stop communicating.

 

You said.:  Ross essentially said that using light pressure is dangerous-- not merely not helpful but dangerous to the client...That light pressure will fool you into thinking it is  released and  will lead to development of myelosis. When Gordon disagreed with that statement, saying that he regularly employed light touch on TPs without causing harm, both you and Ross became rather combative. 

The attitude seems to be that if one disagrees with Ross/your belief, then he or she is arrogant. “

Gary.Professional opinion about not to apply light pressure in order provide treatment for trigger points  is not a belief only. Our presentation and further professional opinions based on extensive intensive research including but not limited to trigger points histological studies(biopsy of TPs tissue, investigation by electronic microscope including incorporation of isotopes ) then clinical trials on real patients including  control group to test against placebo. Control group received light touch. As you can see this is not a belief only and not adequate treatment by light pressure can convert active trigger point to sleeping and study as well clinical observation strongly suggest that in such a case and  in cases of TPs reactivations not reversible  and for lifetime painful myogelosis will be formed.

As you can see  this was opinion at  discussion and not Belief only. Sometime we claiming that we belief because of different reasons. This is absolutely okay with me. In this case it was solid and important information that supporting our belief.

 Gary you said:” Gordon's methodology, whether or not you believe it to be helpful, is unlikely to cause anyone serious harm.” 

Gary ,As you could see you are wrong. Contribute to painful myogelosis formation is a harm.

 

You said:” Gordon paid the man for the secret, and ethically feels that he should not give it out, thereby depriving Kaufman of income”

Gary.:”if this is secret then Gordon shouldn't talk about  it at all, and not to disrupt conversation by making ridiculous claims. It just wrong. Keep your secrets .

 

Gary you said:”Now,I am not claiming Gordon's technique is effective-- I don't know anything about it.  But, then, neither do you or Boris or Ross. “

A)    if you don't know nothing about Gordon's technique, then you shouldn't talk.

B)    I never discussed if his  secret techniques is effective or not. I just replied on ridiculous claims and statements. I hope you see the different.

You said”  Boris, remember, do you, that I said the exact same thing months ago when a couple of people were effectively calling you an idiot for believing that "muscles have memories?"

A)    no one never at mentioned discussion did call me an idiot.

B)    I never claimed that only  muscles have emotional memories, but body cells.

C)    Again I did appreciate your statement which was demand to say where this people who disrupt discussion thinking emotional memory was stored. Gary it was different. And as participant in my discussion you did right. You calling your post as a defense for me.OK. Thank you for defending me.

 

Gary you said:At the end of your msg to Therese, you said:"I don't know what Gordon's as well Gary's agenda was in this discussion, but if not agenda then wrong behavior at professional conversation.no distractions but questions or different professional opinions will contribute to reputation of this site and will advance our industry. If one feel he/she familiar with topics of discussion that shouldn't bother to spend time and distract others who have interest in the subject.I beg your pardon!  Just what "agenda" does GARY have?

Gary you again choose to take "agenda" out of content.

 As in my statement I said in case and If you  do not have agenda that your behavior is wrong.

Now my advice to you. You are student not yet massage therapist, what you doing on this site is not really beneficial to your further professional development. I mean you still are not professional massage therapist, even not-beginner and therefore cannot have professional opinion on subjects related to massage therapy. It became too much and does a harm to you.

 

You said:”I want to read open discussions of techniques--I want to learn all there is, then I will make up my own mind what to believe.  If you and Ross disagree with Gordon, maybe you should have written a private message to him and explain your reasons for disagreement. 

No Gary. This educational site designed to exchange professional information as well to challenge any information if there is room for this. And to do this in professional manner including if somebody obviously claiming ridiculous stuff and one know it then one must, obligated to say it, and not to be politically correct.

 

You said:”.  You are entitled to your opinion. But opinion stated as absolute scientific fact (as in "light pressure on TPs causes myelosis") borders on slander of a skilled, experienced professional. 

I hope that you will read again article as well reference, and  will do your own research but not using sites like Dr. Kaufman’s where is secrets and believes but institutions that applied for IRB for research approval, that applied control groups to check against placebo etc. little warning I owe you. Sometime and for some reason mostly at north America, some institution conducting terribly wrong protocols and then publishing some false information about massage not being therapeutic. It does happen thank God not often  but sometimes and we have to challenge this false statements.

Now Gary I hope we exhaust all what we had to say.

 

 

 

Gary W Addis said:

Honestly, friend Boris, I have not read any attempt of Gordon or for that matter anyone else to "manage" the conversation.  With respect for YOU, I think your friend Ross was the arrogant one in his responses.  Go back and reread his very first posting in the thread started by Allyson about post-massage soreness, wherein Ross essentially said that using light pressure is dangerous-- not merely not helpful but dangerous to the client...That light pressure will fool you into thinking it is  released and  will lead to development of myelosis.  When Gordon disagreed with that statement, saying that he regularly employed light touch on TPs without causing harm, both you and Ross became rather combative.  The attitude seems to be that if one disagrees with Ross/your belief, then he or she is arrogant.  If someone writes that he releases TPs by smacking them with a hammer very hard, obviously all reputable MTs would feel compelled to vociferously disagree.  Gordon's methodology, whether or not you believe it to be helpful, is unlikely to cause anyone serious harm.  And, as Therese has pointed out, she knows from personal experience that the method works.  To me, Boris, Ross/Boris' argument is about as nonsensical as someone saying that unless you always begin massaging the feet first you will harm the client.

Therese, in a private message, Gordon told me that the technique is quite simple to perform, and easily learned once informed of the "secret."  Gordon paid the man for the secret, and ethically feels that he should not give it out, thereby depriving Kaufman of income.  I understand Gordon's ethical stance, and cannot say it is wrong.  Perhaps if Boris or his friend the doctor asked for an explanation of the technique from Kauufman, inventor of the technique, they could then come back to the forum and reveal the secret to all.

 

Now,I am not claiming Gordon's technique is effective-- I don't know anything about it.  But, then, neither do you or Boris or Ross.  To flatly decry the effectiveness of a treatment on the basis of a few words is arrogance personified.  Boris, remember, do you, that I said the exact same thing months ago when a couple of people were effectively calling you an idiot for believing that "muscles have memories?"

 

At the end of your msg to Therese, you said:"I don't know what Gordon's as well Gary's agenda was in this discussion, but if not agenda then wrong behavior at professional conversation.no distractions but questions or different professional opinions will contribute to reputation of this site and will advance our industry. If one feel he/she familiar with topics of discussion that shouldn't bother to spend time and distract others who have interest in the subject.

 

I beg your pardon!  Just what "agenda" does GARY have?-- Boris, please tell me.  No? Then I will tell you.  I want to read open discussions of techniques--I want to learn all there is, then I will make up my own mind what to believe.  If you and Ross disagree with Gordon, maybe you should have written a private message to him and explain your reasons for disagreement.  Posting criticism of Gordon's professional massage technique publicly without having witnessed it in action is flat out unethical.  You are entitled to your opinion. But opinion stated as absolute scientific fact (as in "light pressure on TPs causes myelosis") borders on slander of a skilled, experienced professional. 

 

 

Boris Prilutsky said:

• Gary .I never claimed that Gordon is lying about results achievement. The problem is in his style to manage professional conversation. Please read again all his posts and pay attention on language and articulation and content of this posts. More Dr. Ross tried to pay him respect in communication more arrogant he became . Let's not pay attention how he replied to my posts. Pay attention on his reply to Dr.Ross’ posts. Just read again all his posts. This site is an educational site where professionals can exchange ideas and to learn each from other. Trigger point discussion was initiated by Dr. Ross by offering article on the subject. Respectfully it should continue around topics of trigger point therapy including if there is room to challenge presented material or/and post questions if something not clear. Gordon constantly disrupted discussion and disregard our articles by proposing controversial and sometime ridiculous claims like he treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex . In fact this reflex is possible to trigger in case and secondary too difficult pathological conditions and it nothing have to do with trigger point therapies.He didn't challenge proposed information just distracted .
• You are a student at massage program and happens that you know about clasp knife reflex. But many other maybe not and will start to continue to repeat this nonsense including communicating with medical doctors etc. I personally just got enough of all of this and am positive that it was right decision to challenge his posts . Please read again all his posts and tell me if this was respectful professional conversation on his end ? Just don't forget to reply to this question . Up front thank you .You said you trust Gordon. Good for you. Now please answer to me, Do you support his way of handling this discussions? Do you support him making these claims, and many of them ? Will appreciate your answer.
• >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
• you said :”I just don't think it is possible for a therapist to incite the golgi tendon reflex on a massage table. “ Yes Gary if possible. appropriately administrate passive stretching will activate  stretch receptors  and will trigger stretch reflex. We taking advantage on this when providing comprehensive treatment in cases of muscular pathology as well in sports massage we using it for maintenance of normal resting muscular tone.
• Regards.
• Boris

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 12, 2011 at 3:58pm

Hi Gordon.

thank you for post.in my opinion this is very important subject to discuss. I just have to run  tomorrow will try to reply. Again this is great topic to discuss and to learn as well will reduce the tensions that no one benefiting of.up front can tell you that on this statement I agree in general and we just will discuss details. Thanks again.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gordon J. Wallis said:

How about a slight change of subject.. Forget the Kaufman techniques...There are tons of massage systems, styles, and various deep tissue systems that directly or indirectly release trigger points with varying degrees of success.  Ive always kept things really simple...I dont like to think very much when doing my work...Lets say you come accross a painful trigger point, say in the lower lumbar.. Whats wrong with simply pressing on it in a way that hurts good to the client?  Often enough, that works...and its simple...I mean my massage career was jump started when I accidentally cured a Dr. of his back pain by giving him a simple shiatsu massage. The only danger or problem I see would be excessive pressure...And only a beginning therapist would do that.  To me.. trigger points are simple...Its good to have an idea of referd pain patters, thats helpful...but.  I just dont see the complicatedness you seem to be into?  Or that it has to be done your way, or it wont work? or could be dangerous?  Soft tissue release is a very good therapy...They dont even talk about trigger points, and  that system, works great on them...without knowledge of your protocols...However, Im sure what you do works.  But I hardly think your approach, although well thought out, is nessicary for removal of trigger points.  Thats all...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 12, 2011 at 10:16pm

Sigh. A heartfelt sigh.  You just said that: "As you can see  this was opinion at  discussion and not Belief only." I believe that "belief" and "opinion" are synonymous.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Gary. It is pretty long post . But this time I will   answer. If you will not understand what I trying to deliver to you then let's stop communicating.

 

You said.:  Ross essentially said that using light pressure is dangerous-- not merely not helpful but dangerous to the client...That light pressure will fool you into thinking it is  released and  will lead to development of myelosis. When Gordon disagreed with that statement, saying that he regularly employed light touch on TPs without causing harm, both you and Ross became rather combative. 

The attitude seems to be that if one disagrees with Ross/your belief, then he or she is arrogant. “

Gary.Professional opinion about not to apply light pressure in order provide treatment for trigger points  is not a belief only. Our presentation and further professional opinions based on extensive intensive research including but not limited to trigger points histological studies(biopsy of TPs tissue, investigation by electronic microscope including incorporation of isotopes ) then clinical trials on real patients including  control group to test against placebo. Control group received light touch. As you can see this is not a belief only and not adequate treatment by light pressure can convert active trigger point to sleeping and study as well clinical observation strongly suggest that in such a case and  in cases of TPs reactivations not reversible  and for lifetime painful myogelosis will be formed.

As you can see  this was opinion at  discussion and not Belief only. Sometime we claiming that we belief because of different reasons. This is absolutely okay with me. In this case it was solid and important information that supporting our belief.

 Gary you said:” Gordon's methodology, whether or not you believe it to be helpful, is unlikely to cause anyone serious harm.” 

Gary ,As you could see you are wrong. Contribute to painful myogelosis formation is a harm.

 

BEcause you claim it causes myelosis, then without proof  we are to believe that it does?????  Effleurage is light pressure, and without doubt such long strokes will from time to time contact trigger points.  So... is effleurage harmful...can it cause myelosis?

 

You said:” Gordon paid the man for the secret, and ethically feels that he should not give it out, thereby depriving Kaufman of income”

Gary.:”if this is secret then Gordon shouldn't talk about  it at all, and not to disrupt conversation by making ridiculous claims. It just wrong. Keep your secrets .

 

He mentioned it only under pressure, and much baseless ridicule, from you.

 

Gary you said:”Now,I am not claiming Gordon's technique is effective-- I don't know anything about it.  But, then, neither do you or Boris or Ross. “

A)    if you don't know nothing about Gordon's technique, then you shouldn't talk.

 

Boris: my point EXACTLY.  You should not be condemning it and calling it ridiculous if YOU don't know anything about it.

 

B)    I never discussed if his  secret techniques is effective or not. I just replied on ridiculous claims and statements. I hope you see the different.

 

What was his ridiculous claim? That he used it and it worked for him? Can you prove that it doesn''t work?  I'm pretty sure that Gordon will send you a stack of testimonials letters from his satisfied clients.  Look, the man avows that the method works for him.  Prove that it doesn't, or retract your "ridiculous" comment, and say instead that IN YOUR OPINION it can't work--don't claim as scientific fact that it will not work without providing scientific evidence that it won't.

 

You said”  Boris, remember, do you, that I said the exact same thing months ago when a couple of people were effectively calling you an idiot for believing that "muscles have memories?"

A)    no one never at mentioned discussion did call me an idiot.

B)    I never claimed that only  muscles have emotional memories, but body cells.

C)    Again I did appreciate your statement which was demand to say where this people who disrupt discussion thinking emotional memory was stored. Gary it was different. And as participant in my discussion you did right. You calling your post as a defense for me.OK. Thank you for defending me.

 

Semantics, Boris...the same tactic that was hurled like a weapon at you.  Boris, words have heavier weight than their dictionary meaning.  Stating that Gordon's method is ridiculous is in effect calling Gordon a liar or an idiot, or both.  By repeatedly demanding that you prove that cells can hold actual memory, they were in effect calling you an idiot

 

Gary you said:At the end of your msg to Therese, you said:"I don't know what Gordon's as well Gary's agenda was in this discussion, but if not agenda then wrong behavior at professional conversation.no distractions but questions or different professional opinions will contribute to reputation of this site and will advance our industry. If one feel he/she familiar with topics of discussion that shouldn't bother to spend time and distract others who have interest in the subject.I beg your pardon!  Just what "agenda" does GARY have?

Gary you again choose to take "agenda" out of content.

 

No I did not.  If you did not mean "agenda," you should not have employed it.

 

 As in my statement I said in case and If you  do not have agenda that your behavior is wrong.

Now my advice to you. You are student not yet massage therapist, what you doing on this site is not really beneficial to your further professional development. I mean you still are not professional massage therapist, even not-beginner and therefore cannot have professional opinion on subjects related to massage therapy. It became too much and does a harm to you.

 

Who is being arrogant now, Boris????  When I back you up, I am qualified to give my opinion, but if I criticize Boris, then I should shut up and go away because I am a mere student??? 

 

I have 38 years experience working with the soft tissues of the human body.  Better than you-- because I myself have experienced muscle tears and strains-- I understand what causes muscle injuries, and how best to avoid incurring them in the first place.  All those years I read textbooks and treated whatever body parts I could reach with massage, incl acupressure.  I am certain that I wasn't doing it correctly, but my competitive bodybuilding career was long and reasonably successful (two state championships, a regional championship, and a win in the South American Bodybuilding Championships).  I wish instead that I could brag about 38 years of therapeutic massage experience.  But don't imply that I am clueless about the workings of the human body.  I am intelligent, inquisitive, and eager to learn.  Although I have a full year to go before I can become nationally certified, I recently took a series of five NCBTMB practice exams--1,000 questions in total, and my overall score was 84, well above a passing grade. 

 

Look, from personal experience I know that unskilled massage can be harmful.  Back in the early '80s, I used acupressure on my wife's sore wrists and hands: she needed emergency carpal tunnel syndrome surgery to repair the damage I caused.  One such mistake was enough.  Believe me, as I prepare to begin a massage, I remind myself of the Golden Rule: FIRST, DO NO HARM.

 

You said:”I want to read open discussions of techniques--I want to learn all there is, then I will make up my own mind what to believe.  If you and Ross disagree with Gordon, maybe you should have written a private message to him and explain your reasons for disagreement. 

No Gary. This educational site designed to exchange professional information as well to challenge any information if there is room for this. And to do this in professional manner including if somebody obviously claiming ridiculous stuff and one know it then one must, obligated to say it, and not to be politically correct.

 

Ah, B.S.!  Prove with scientific certainty that Gordon's claim is ridiculous, Boris.  If you cannot you are expressing your opinion--which I'm certain is considered to be ridiculous by all the people who have been successfully treated using Kaufman's method.  Let me ask you a serious question: do you hope that Kaufman's method is proven to be beneficial to humanity...will you be disappointed if it does?  Any method that cures aches and pains of TPs and HT with one light touch would certainly be beneficial, wouldn't it? Would you applaud it then, or would your ego force you to deny its efficacy till the cows come home?

 

You said:”.  You are entitled to your opinion. But opinion stated as absolute scientific fact (as in "light pressure on TPs causes myelosis") borders on slander of a skilled, experienced professional. 

I hope that you will read again article as well reference, and  will do your own research but not using sites like Dr. Kaufman’s where is secrets and believes but institutions that applied for IRB for research approval, that applied control groups to check against placebo etc. little warning I owe you. Sometime and for some reason mostly at north America, some institution conducting terribly wrong protocols and then publishing some false information about massage not being therapeutic. It does happen thank God not often  but sometimes and we have to challenge this false statements.

Now Gary I hope we exhaust all what we had to say.

 

Please note that at no time did I ever claim that Gordon's (Kaufman's) method works.  I remain true to myself when I admit that I just do not know.  And because I do not know, I will not judge it until I do.  This is advice that you should take.

 

Boris, have a nice life.

 

 

Gary W Addis said:

Honestly, friend Boris, I have not read any attempt of Gordon or for that matter anyone else to "manage" the conversation.  With respect for YOU, I think your friend Ross was the arrogant one in his responses.  Go back and reread his very first posting in the thread started by Allyson about post-massage soreness, wherein Ross essentially said that using light pressure is dangerous-- not merely not helpful but dangerous to the client...That light pressure will fool you into thinking it is  released and  will lead to development of myelosis.  When Gordon disagreed with that statement, saying that he regularly employed light touch on TPs without causing harm, both you and Ross became rather combative.  The attitude seems to be that if one disagrees with Ross/your belief, then he or she is arrogant.  If someone writes that he releases TPs by smacking them with a hammer very hard, obviously all reputable MTs would feel compelled to vociferously disagree.  Gordon's methodology, whether or not you believe it to be helpful, is unlikely to cause anyone serious harm.  And, as Therese has pointed out, she knows from personal experience that the method works.  To me, Boris, Ross/Boris' argument is about as nonsensical as someone saying that unless you always begin massaging the feet first you will harm the client.

Therese, in a private message, Gordon told me that the technique is quite simple to perform, and easily learned once informed of the "secret."  Gordon paid the man for the secret, and ethically feels that he should not give it out, thereby depriving Kaufman of income.  I understand Gordon's ethical stance, and cannot say it is wrong.  Perhaps if Boris or his friend the doctor asked for an explanation of the technique from Kauufman, inventor of the technique, they could then come back to the forum and reveal the secret to all.

 

Now,I am not claiming Gordon's technique is effective-- I don't know anything about it.  But, then, neither do you or Boris or Ross.  To flatly decry the effectiveness of a treatment on the basis of a few words is arrogance personified.  Boris, remember, do you, that I said the exact same thing months ago when a couple of people were effectively calling you an idiot for believing that "muscles have memories?"

 

At the end of your msg to Therese, you said:"I don't know what Gordon's as well Gary's agenda was in this discussion, but if not agenda then wrong behavior at professional conversation.no distractions but questions or different professional opinions will contribute to reputation of this site and will advance our industry. If one feel he/she familiar with topics of discussion that shouldn't bother to spend time and distract others who have interest in the subject.

 

I beg your pardon!  Just what "agenda" does GARY have?-- Boris, please tell me.  No? Then I will tell you.  I want to read open discussions of techniques--I want to learn all there is, then I will make up my own mind what to believe.  If you and Ross disagree with Gordon, maybe you should have written a private message to him and explain your reasons for disagreement.  Posting criticism of Gordon's professional massage technique publicly without having witnessed it in action is flat out unethical.  You are entitled to your opinion. But opinion stated as absolute scientific fact (as in "light pressure on TPs causes myelosis") borders on slander of a skilled, experienced professional. 

 

 

Boris Prilutsky said:

• Gary .I never claimed that Gordon is lying about results achievement. The problem is in his style to manage professional conversation. Please read again all his posts and pay attention on language and articulation and content of this posts. More Dr. Ross tried to pay him respect in communication more arrogant he became . Let's not pay attention how he replied to my posts. Pay attention on his reply to Dr.Ross’ posts. Just read again all his posts. This site is an educational site where professionals can exchange ideas and to learn each from other. Trigger point discussion was initiated by Dr. Ross by offering article on the subject. Respectfully it should continue around topics of trigger point therapy including if there is room to challenge presented material or/and post questions if something not clear. Gordon constantly disrupted discussion and disregard our articles by proposing controversial and sometime ridiculous claims like he treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex . In fact this reflex is possible to trigger in case and secondary too difficult pathological conditions and it nothing have to do with trigger point therapies.He didn't challenge proposed information just distracted .
• You are a student at massage program and happens that you know about clasp knife reflex. But many other maybe not and will start to continue to repeat this nonsense including communicating with medical doctors etc. I personally just got enough of all of this and am positive that it was right decision to challenge his posts . Please read again all his posts and tell me if this was respectful professional conversation on his end ? Just don't forget to reply to this question . Up front thank you .You said you trust Gordon. Good for you. Now please answer to me, Do you support his way of handling this discussions? Do you support him making these claims, and many of them ? Will appreciate your answer.
• >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
• you said :”I just don't think it is possible for a therapist to incite the golgi tendon reflex on a massage table. “ Yes Gary if possible. appropriately administrate passive stretching will activate  stretch receptors  and will trigger stretch reflex. We taking advantage on this when providing comprehensive treatment in cases of muscular pathology as well in sports massage we using it for maintenance of normal resting muscular tone.
• Regards.
• Boris

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 13, 2011 at 12:51am

Gordon  you said and I agree:” There are tons of massage systems, styles, and various deep tissue systems that directly or indirectly release trigger points with varying degrees of success. “

Only instead saying massage systems let's use massage techniques. System means complex which is comprehensive multimodality approach that I will address lately in the discussion.

You said: I mean my massage career was jump started when I accidentally cured a Dr. of his back pain by giving him a simple shiatsu massage.”

Actually in such cases I don't believe in “accidentally cured” because you did provided therapy and most likely including trigger point therapy  without realizing it. Russian physician Dubrovsky did some huge amount of work, by comparing thousands of accupoints that Chinese medicine experts stimulating using needles  or in cases of shiatsu and other Chinese massages  by applying pressure on this point , with maps of typical trigger points development/ localizations .85% of these points located at the same positions .when you applied sustained  shiatsu pressure you actually contributed to additional ischemia , and this triggered  all mechanism of  restoring blood supply to this sick pinpoints . Don't want repeat myself please read in article on mechanism of ischemic compression techniques. I'm positive when you treated this doctor pressure wasn't  light pressure . I mean shiatsu techniques  in most cases is not light pressure .

 

You said: Ive always kept things really simple...I dont like to think very much when doing my work...Lets say you come accross a painful trigger point, say in the lower lumbar.. Whats wrong with simply pressing on it in a way that hurts good to the client? 

Nothing wrong. And if you have contributed to “hurts good” then it wasn't light pressure. Why not to apply light pressure we already explained no need to go back.

You said :The only danger or problem I see would be excessive pressure...And only a beginning therapist would do that. 

I disagree with you that the only beginning therapists pressing vigorously confusing  it with so-called deep tissues massage. I hope many of us sharing the same concern about this massive phenomena of injuring our clients and calling it massage therapy. Therefore we should talk and talk straight if somebody doing it wrong.

 

You said :To me.. trigger points are simple... I just dont see the complicatedness you seem to be into?  Or that it has to be done your way, or it wont work? or could be dangerous? 

Agree with you . Trigger point therapy is not complicated procedure but if will be operated not correctly can be dangerous and of course  not effective. I mean vigorous pressure can be dangerous as well as light pressure could be dangerous .

You said:” Its good to have an idea of referd pain patters, thats helpful...but. “

Therefore we offered in our article detailed information that really can be helpful. I mean no secret just plain scientific review and practical recommendation for techniques application.

 

You saying :tissue release is a very good therapy...They dont even talk about trigger points, and  that system, works great on them...without knowledge of your protocols...However, Im sure what you do works. 

Gordon. I really don't know on what tissue release therapy you are  talking about but like we agree from the beginning that there is many different techniques producing great results. Some of this techniques like shiatsu for example including and providing conventional trigger point therapy but not realizing it.

Another example is  European connective tissue  massage society. This fellows practicing only connective tissue mobilization and reaching some  good results but they teaching also if and in case you will pass over pinpoint localization of pain sustain  pressure on this pinpoint pain localization which is definition of trigger points therapy.

You said:” But I hardly think your approach, although well thought out, is nessicary for removal of trigger points.  Thats all...

A)     I would highly recommend to exclude from your professional language  “removal of trigger points”  no doubt , treatment eliminates pinpoint  pain localizations but not surgically removing it. When we communicating between us as well with other health care practitioners we should watch professional language.

B)      Speaking on my approach. My approach is not trigger point therapy only. And in order to reach sustained as well as rapid results I am applying equally important modalities, such as lymph drainage techniques for a lymphedema size reduction, circulatory techniques , muscular mobilizations techniques and 50% of it spending on kneading, periosteum massage,connective tissue massage/fascia release techniques, post-isometric relaxation techniques,

I'm really tired. Pacific time is 11:30 PM. Tomorrow morning have to run but will call Dr. Ross and will request to extend on importance  of comprehensive multimodality medical massage protocols. If he still  not back home then Thursday will do it by myself.

Gordon, Dr. Ross and myself  possessing significant body of knowledge and willing to share it. Plain like we did in proposed article. Honestly I even did know that Dr. Ross posted this article and when have figure out was very happy that he joined us. Professionals like he can contribute a lot to industry as well can add  reputation to this educational site. In such a case no one will be able to sell “secrets”because if one offering mysteries or secrets then we should be careful before paying for this “secrets” as well about safety and the real power of this “secrets”

I'm glad that somehow we have settled differences and will be able to enjoy each other in our conversations.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gordon J. Wallis said:

How about a slight change of subject.. Forget the Kaufman techniques...There are tons of massage systems, styles, and various deep tissue systems that directly or indirectly release trigger points with varying degrees of success.  Ive always kept things really simple...I dont like to think very much when doing my work...Lets say you come accross a painful trigger point, say in the lower lumbar.. Whats wrong with simply pressing on it in a way that hurts good to the client?  Often enough, that works...and its simple...I mean my massage career was jump started when I accidentally cured a Dr. of his back pain by giving him a simple shiatsu massage. The only danger or problem I see would be excessive pressure...And only a beginning therapist would do that.  To me.. trigger points are simple...Its good to have an idea of referd pain patters, thats helpful...but.  I just dont see the complicatedness you seem to be into?  Or that it has to be done your way, or it wont work? or could be dangerous?  Soft tissue release is a very good therapy...They dont even talk about trigger points, and  that system, works great on them...without knowledge of your protocols...However, Im sure what you do works.  But I hardly think your approach, although well thought out, is nessicary for removal of trigger points.  Thats all...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dr. Ross Turchaninov on July 13, 2011 at 1:30am

Wow guys! You really have heated discussion! I started this post and I think we should have civilized conversation without getting on each other throat.

However I would like to personally address Gary for the last time. Gary, I really enjoyed your arrogance remark.However  I would like you to go back to your post which started all this mess. Just read it carefully and you will see that in one short post  you successfully placed Gordon against Travel, me against Gordon, etc. Unfortunately to unwind complicated knot you created required  all participants to be mentioned (even dead Travell). My response generated your fury and as a result instead of productive professional discussion post became marketplace type conversation. Please read and compare posts before and after your 'creative' contribution.

Now it  is time we come back to the issues and I hope that we stay there.

Gordon, I think you have all rights to practice what you think is the best for your clients. Yes, I also agree that Trigger Point Therapy is not a brain surgery despite the fact that in complicated cases it requires a lot  of thinking and trying. Boris is passionate guy and I believe so do you. I think that neither he or I doubts your skills. He worries that you oversimplifying the issue and such approach will limit practitioners' abilities to help clients with complicated clinical picture.

Personally I am student all my life and I will be happy to learn and try other things IF they really benefit my patients. So lets get back to the basic. You know my and Boris' position. All its details in the links to the trigger point article included in the first post. Neither I or Boris hide anything and all information even in the video format in step by step application in these link and it is FREE.

By the way we didn't developed this protocol so it is not correct when you mentioned that Boris wants everyone follow his views or protocol. Unfortunately we aren't authors of this information. It is a result of long clincal development in different countries. We just put it together in the simpliest way.

You have different view and trust me I deeply respect it. At the same time I think that I as well as all readers entitled to know what is physiological foundation of what are you doing and teaching. How exactly it works from your opinion? Also I think that we all will really appreciate if you provide some scientific data which justify your concept.

Sorry to say but the link to Kauffman's page is pure sale pitch. There is nothing there which allow the reader  to even slightly understand what it is all about. The only thing which is mentioned is large number MDs and it so simple that child can do it.

Sorry it didn't satisfied or impressed me at all. For example I gave presentation on trigger point therapy for more than 150 MDs during Annual Conference of  American Academy of Pain Management an they where ecstatic. However I never mentioned it (except this post as an example) on any of my websites or in publications. Boris by the way has professionals privileges in Sedar Sinai Hospital and regularly lecture to the residents there. Do I need to explain what Cedar Sinai Hospital is?

So I think that you will agree but Kauffman's page doesn't have any professional value except push to buy, In the contrary we put all information on the web without practitioners paining  almost $300 for DVD. At the same time you may save me and readers $300 by at least giving us outlines what his revolutionary treatment actually is based on and how it is conducted.

Dr.Kaufman only mentioned that his techniques are based on the activation of the Golgi tendon organ reflex. Great, but passive stretching or let say second part of PIR is based exactly on the activation of the same reflex. So, it is reasonable to ask from the basic scientific point of view if both approaches (Kauffman's and PIR) activate same receptors where is revolution? Do you think that Kauffman has special way to activate Golgi tendon organ receptors? However such assumption immediately becomes nonsense for one particular reason if receptor is activated it is activated SAME way without any differentiation how exactly it was done. Each peripheral receptor (including Goldgi tendon organs) is the simple switch. It has only two positions "off" and "on". The complicated analysis and formation of response happened on the level of spinal cord. This is basic of neurology.

Thus if we leave personal issues at the door we may ask you as one professional to another professional: "Please excite us with revolutionary approach". I will be first who will praise it but ONLY if it makes sense from the pathophysiological point of view.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

 

Gordon J. Wallis said:

How about a slight change of subject.. Forget the Kaufman techniques...There are tons of massage systems, styles, and various deep tissue systems that directly or indirectly release trigger points with varying degrees of success.  Ive always kept things really simple...I dont like to think very much when doing my work...Lets say you come accross a painful trigger point, say in the lower lumbar.. Whats wrong with simply pressing on it in a way that hurts good to the client?  Often enough, that works...and its simple...I mean my massage career was jump started when I accidentally cured a Dr. of his back pain by giving him a simple shiatsu massage. The only danger or problem I see would be excessive pressure...And only a beginning therapist would do that.  To me.. trigger points are simple...Its good to have an idea of referd pain patters, thats helpful...but.  I just dont see the complicatedness you seem to be into?  Or that it has to be done your way, or it wont work? or could be dangerous?  Soft tissue release is a very good therapy...They dont even talk about trigger points, and  that system, works great on them...without knowledge of your protocols...However, Im sure what you do works.  But I hardly think your approach, although well thought out, is nessicary for removal of trigger points.  Thats all...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on July 13, 2011 at 4:37am

Well Im not as smart as you guys...and I dont know how to speak in a professional language like Boris ,as he stated above...  Anyway, Im going to continue using my uncouth, non scientific ways of trigger point theory and removal...You guys enjoy chatting ....Peace... Im out of here. PS- ...http://www.britishsportstherapy.com/.. Boris..thats Soft Tissue Release..

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 13, 2011 at 6:02am

Hopefully for the last time, turchininov, I address you.  I said nothing in any of my posts that was not true.  You began the animosity by referring to an experienced massage professional--an actual hands' on therapist-- as ridiculous, that his methods are harmful without detailing how it is harmful.  You are not the be-all end-all, therapists are permitted to make their own decisions. 

About me, you have just now said, "However I would like to personally address Gary for the last time. Gary, I really enjoyed your arrogance remark.However  I would like you to go back to your post which started all this mess. Just read it carefully and you will see that in one short post  you successfully placed Gordon against Travel, me against Gordon, etc. Unfortunately to unwind complicated knot you created required  all participants to be mentioned (even dead Travell). My response generated your fury and as a result instead of productive professional discussion post became marketplace type conversation. Please read and compare posts before and after your 'creative' contribution."

 

Sir, I did not start anything, I did not put anyone against anyone.  To declare that I have is ludicrous.  I defended Gordon's right to use whatever methods have been working for him, on his clients, for more than 2 decades.  Travell was mentioned by Gordon in defending himself against what may have been an anger-derivative slip of the tongue by Boris, when he used the term "ridiculous" and you with the declarative statement that light pressure is harmful.  I am certain that several thousand experienced therapists quietly disagree with that comment.  My contribution was from the viewpoint of a student, one who is open to all modalities and methods.  The entire gist of my postings is that it is wrong--always wrong--to make a declarative statement about a treatment method that you yourself--personally--are not familiar with.

Note that I never once declared that Kaufman is the new guru, or even that I believe it works.  But it worked for Therese as a client and it works for Gordon as a therapist on his many satisfied clients.  I would love to see it in action, so that I can make an informed opinion regarding it.  You declare absolutely that it cannot work--and that, my friend, is my disagreement with you, the reason that I ask both you and Boris to prove that it cannot work.  You are a doctor, and may have lots of money.  Why don't you yourself pay Kaufman his fee and learn his method, then in your journal detail why it does not work-- if it doesn't, you would save lots of people from "causing myelosis" as you claim that Gordon's methodology does.  As for me, I will await your scientific exposition of the technique's efficacy before I form an opinion.

 

Now, go have a nice life.
Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Wow guys! You really have heated discussion! I started this post and I think we should have civilized conversation without getting on each other throat.

However I would like to personally address Gary for the last time. Gary, I really enjoyed your arrogance remark.However  I would like you to go back to your post which started all this mess. Just read it carefully and you will see that in one short post  you successfully placed Gordon against Travel, me against Gordon, etc. Unfortunately to unwind complicated knot you created required  all participants to be mentioned (even dead Travell). My response generated your fury and as a result instead of productive professional discussion post became marketplace type conversation. Please read and compare posts before and after your 'creative' contribution.

Now it  is time we come back to the issues and I hope that we stay there.

Gordon, I think you have all rights to practice what you think is the best for your clients. Yes, I also agree that Trigger Point Therapy is not a brain surgery despite the fact that in complicated cases it requires a lot  of thinking and trying. Boris is passionate guy and I believe so do you. I think that neither he or I doubts your skills. He worries that you oversimplifying the issue and such approach will limit practitioners' abilities to help clients with complicated clinical picture.

Personally I am student all my life and I will be happy to learn and try other things IF they really benefit my patients. So lets get back to the basic. You know my and Boris' position. All its details in the links to the trigger point article included in the first post. Neither I or Boris hide anything and all information even in the video format in step by step application in these link and it is FREE.

By the way we didn't developed this protocol so it is not correct when you mentioned that Boris wants everyone follow his views or protocol. Unfortunately we aren't authors of this information. It is a result of long clincal development in different countries. We just put it together in the simpliest way.

You have different view and trust me I deeply respect it. At the same time I think that I as well as all readers entitled to know what is physiological foundation of what are you doing and teaching. How exactly it works from your opinion? Also I think that we all will really appreciate if you provide some scientific data which justify your concept.

Sorry to say but the link to Kauffman's page is pure sale pitch. There is nothing there which allow the reader  to even slightly understand what it is all about. The only thing which is mentioned is large number MDs and it so simple that child can do it.

Sorry it didn't satisfied or impressed me at all. For example I gave presentation on trigger point therapy for more than 150 MDs during Annual Conference of  American Academy of Pain Management an they where ecstatic. However I never mentioned it (except this post as an example) on any of my websites or in publications. Boris by the way has professionals privileges in Sedar Sinai Hospital and regularly lecture to the residents there. Do I need to explain what Cedar Sinai Hospital is?

So I think that you will agree but Kauffman's page doesn't have any professional value except push to buy, In the contrary we put all information on the web without practitioners paining  almost $300 for DVD. At the same time you may save me and readers $300 by at least giving us outlines what his revolutionary treatment actually is based on and how it is conducted.

Dr.Kaufman only mentioned that his techniques are based on the activation of the Golgi tendon organ reflex. Great, but passive stretching or let say second part of PIR is based exactly on the activation of the same reflex. So, it is reasonable to ask from the basic scientific point of view if both approaches (Kauffman's and PIR) activate same receptors where is revolution? Do you think that Kauffman has special way to activate Golgi tendon organ receptors? However such assumption immediately becomes nonsense for one particular reason if receptor is activated it is activated SAME way without any differentiation how exactly it was done. Each peripheral receptor (including Goldgi tendon organs) is the simple switch. It has only two positions "off" and "on". The complicated analysis and formation of response happened on the level of spinal cord. This is basic of neurology.

Thus if we leave personal issues at the door we may ask you as one professional to another professional: "Please excite us with revolutionary approach". I will be first who will praise it but ONLY if it makes sense from the pathophysiological point of view.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

 

Gordon J. Wallis said:

How about a slight change of subject.. Forget the Kaufman techniques...There are tons of massage systems, styles, and various deep tissue systems that directly or indirectly release trigger points with varying degrees of success.  Ive always kept things really simple...I dont like to think very much when doing my work...Lets say you come accross a painful trigger point, say in the lower lumbar.. Whats wrong with simply pressing on it in a way that hurts good to the client?  Often enough, that works...and its simple...I mean my massage career was jump started when I accidentally cured a Dr. of his back pain by giving him a simple shiatsu massage. The only danger or problem I see would be excessive pressure...And only a beginning therapist would do that.  To me.. trigger points are simple...Its good to have an idea of referd pain patters, thats helpful...but.  I just dont see the complicatedness you seem to be into?  Or that it has to be done your way, or it wont work? or could be dangerous?  Soft tissue release is a very good therapy...They dont even talk about trigger points, and  that system, works great on them...without knowledge of your protocols...However, Im sure what you do works.  But I hardly think your approach, although well thought out, is nessicary for removal of trigger points.  Thats all...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 13, 2011 at 8:28am

You Said:"You began the animosity by referring to an experienced massage professional--an actual hands' on therapist-- as ridiculous"

 

Gary.I am very much proud to call myself an actual hands' on therapist. And no matter if one practicing medical massage, Swedish massage etc. we are an actual hands' on therapists. This is what clinicians doing, providing hands on therapy .and this is nothing ridiculous in this definition but opposite.

Dr.Ross who is MD .PhD who many years was surgeon is an actual hands' on therapist. My grandfather rest in peace neurologist sports medicine expert MD .PhD was actual hands' on   therapist, my professor Alexander Dembo MD PhD was  actual hands' on therapist, Prof. Popelansky  MD PhD was  actual hands' on therapist, Prof. Kremer MD PhD, professor Boris Ivanov MD an actual hands' on therapist  and much, much, much, much more. Medical and sports massage is scientifically developed very simple to learn,and if  to operate correct virtually side effects free and extremely powerful methodology. I come from country where mandatory CE programs for physicians use to offer hands-on training and specifically for practicing physicians. There was waiting list of physicians to attend hands-on seminars at our center to become an actual hands' on therapist. At thet point when will be less destruction of professional discussion I will be able to brief readers on a very interesting history of Russian medical and sports massage. And guess what it was secrets involve, but not anymore. Soviet government do not controlling anymore and for more than 25years I and Dr. Ross and a few other experts in this field can share this secrets with no secrets.

 You said:You are not the be-all end-all, therapists are permitted to make their own decisions. 

You're right. This is free country. You still student in massage program and making your own decisions to participate and offer opinion related to massage therapy subjects. But Dr. Ross is a one of “be-all end-all”. your arrogance and ignorance do not allow you to appreciate expert like he is and  you just lost potential   great teacher.

 

You said:”I defended Gordon's right to use whatever methods have been working for him, on his clients, for more than 2 decades. 

My goodness Gary. Help yourself. What are you talking about. I mean about what  Gordon’s methods you are talking about???? You just at  another post claimed that this is “secret”and he is

being very honest and moral fellow And can not harm to Dr. Kaufman income by telling us this secret.

You said:  I am certain that several thousand experienced therapists quietly disagree with that comment. 

Gary. I already said to you. you even not in the beginning of career as massage therapist. You can  not be certain. Just come down and study. This all.

 

You said:You declare absolutely that it cannot work--and that, my friend, is my disagreement with you, the reason that I ask both you and Boris to prove that it cannot work. 

Gary.No one claimed nothing about If Kaufmann's secret work or not. Remember this is secret. This ridiculous claims like he treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex…. in my eyes he is uneducated person . Nothing to prove here. If you want to make a career in our fields just study, and progress one step at a time. Just come down. All this excitement as a student you cannot afford. It obviously confusing you. I mean at one post you claiming that we didn't want to consider Gordon’s methodology which he never have introduced us to it, in other post you claiming that he cannot reveal the secrets. You see you cannot make your mind. You want us to offer opinion on what????

In one post you said after reviewing Kaufmann’s site, you disagree with his claim that's stretch reflex can be triggered on table(remember I explained to you that it is possible to trigger stretch reflex on table. I hope you did learn It) Besides my explanation that proposing treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex which is possible but only with people who suffering from terrible neurological disorder and it  have nothing to do with trigger point therapy , you offering us to pay money and study from Kaufman???????? You see.you  have to come down. All this confusing you. Honestly I really disappointed and taking no pleasure that all come down to this kind of talk. Feel no guilt about it just sorry. In the end this ongoing discussion is a good one because helping us to form standards of professional discussion as well revealing a lot of important information besides information   proposed in our article. This all Gary. A really sorry that this come down like this with you. At this point I also exhaust all in talking to you.

Best wishes.

Boris

 

Gary W Addis said:

Hopefully for the last time, turchininov, I address you.  I said nothing in any of my posts that was not true.  You began the animosity by referring to an experienced massage professional--an actual hands' on therapist-- as ridiculous, that his methods are harmful without detailing how it is harmful.  You are not the be-all end-all, therapists are permitted to make their own decisions. 

About me, you have just now said, "However I would like to personally address Gary for the last time. Gary, I really enjoyed your arrogance remark.However  I would like you to go back to your post which started all this mess. Just read it carefully and you will see that in one short post  you successfully placed Gordon against Travel, me against Gordon, etc. Unfortunately to unwind complicated knot you created required  all participants to be mentioned (even dead Travell). My response generated your fury and as a result instead of productive professional discussion post became marketplace type conversation. Please read and compare posts before and after your 'creative' contribution."

 

Sir, I did not start anything, I did not put anyone against anyone.  To declare that I have is ludicrous.  I defended Gordon's right to use whatever methods have been working for him, on his clients, for more than 2 decades.  Travell was mentioned by Gordon in defending himself against what may have been an anger-derivative slip of the tongue by Boris, when he used the term "ridiculous" and you with the declarative statement that light pressure is harmful.  I am certain that several thousand experienced therapists quietly disagree with that comment.  My contribution was from the viewpoint of a student, one who is open to all modalities and methods.  The entire gist of my postings is that it is wrong--always wrong--to make a declarative statement about a treatment method that you yourself--personally--are not familiar with.

Note that I never once declared that Kaufman is the new guru, or even that I believe it works.  But it worked for Therese as a client and it works for Gordon as a therapist on his many satisfied clients.  I would love to see it in action, so that I can make an informed opinion regarding it.  You declare absolutely that it cannot work--and that, my friend, is my disagreement with you, the reason that I ask both you and Boris to prove that it cannot work.  You are a doctor, and may have lots of money.  Why don't you yourself pay Kaufman his fee and learn his method, then in your journal detail why it does not work-- if it doesn't, you would save lots of people from "causing myelosis" as you claim that Gordon's methodology does.  As for me, I will await your scientific exposition of the technique's efficacy before I form an opinion.

 

Now, go have a nice life.
Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Wow guys! You really have heated discussion! I started this post and I think we should have civilized conversation without getting on each other throat.

However I would like to personally address Gary for the last time. Gary, I really enjoyed your arrogance remark.However  I would like you to go back to your post which started all this mess. Just read it carefully and you will see that in one short post  you successfully placed Gordon against Travel, me against Gordon, etc. Unfortunately to unwind complicated knot you created required  all participants to be mentioned (even dead Travell). My response generated your fury and as a result instead of productive professional discussion post became marketplace type conversation. Please read and compare posts before and after your 'creative' contribution.

Now it  is time we come back to the issues and I hope that we stay there.

Gordon, I think you have all rights to practice what you think is the best for your clients. Yes, I also agree that Trigger Point Therapy is not a brain surgery despite the fact that in complicated cases it requires a lot  of thinking and trying. Boris is passionate guy and I believe so do you. I think that neither he or I doubts your skills. He worries that you oversimplifying the issue and such approach will limit practitioners' abilities to help clients with complicated clinical picture.

Personally I am student all my life and I will be happy to learn and try other things IF they really benefit my patients. So lets get back to the basic. You know my and Boris' position. All its details in the links to the trigger point article included in the first post. Neither I or Boris hide anything and all information even in the video format in step by step application in these link and it is FREE.

By the way we didn't developed this protocol so it is not correct when you mentioned that Boris wants everyone follow his views or protocol. Unfortunately we aren't authors of this information. It is a result of long clincal development in different countries. We just put it together in the simpliest way.

You have different view and trust me I deeply respect it. At the same time I think that I as well as all readers entitled to know what is physiological foundation of what are you doing and teaching. How exactly it works from your opinion? Also I think that we all will really appreciate if you provide some scientific data which justify your concept.

Sorry to say but the link to Kauffman's page is pure sale pitch. There is nothing there which allow the reader  to even slightly understand what it is all about. The only thing which is mentioned is large number MDs and it so simple that child can do it.

Sorry it didn't satisfied or impressed me at all. For example I gave presentation on trigger point therapy for more than 150 MDs during Annual Conference of  American Academy of Pain Management an they where ecstatic. However I never mentioned it (except this post as an example) on any of my websites or in publications. Boris by the way has professionals privileges in Sedar Sinai Hospital and regularly lecture to the residents there. Do I need to explain what Cedar Sinai Hospital is?

So I think that you will agree but Kauffman's page doesn't have any professional value except push to buy, In the contrary we put all information on the web without practitioners paining  almost $300 for DVD. At the same time you may save me and readers $300 by at least giving us outlines what his revolutionary treatment actually is based on and how it is conducted.

Dr.Kaufman only mentioned that his techniques are based on the activation of the Golgi tendon organ reflex. Great, but passive stretching or let say second part of PIR is based exactly on the activation of the same reflex. So, it is reasonable to ask from the basic scientific point of view if both approaches (Kauffman's and PIR) activate same receptors where is revolution? Do you think that Kauffman has special way to activate Golgi tendon organ receptors? However such assumption immediately becomes nonsense for one particular reason if receptor is activated it is activated SAME way without any differentiation how exactly it was done. Each peripheral receptor (including Goldgi tendon organs) is the simple switch. It has only two positions "off" and "on". The complicated analysis and formation of response happened on the level of spinal cord. This is basic of neurology.

Thus if we leave personal issues at the door we may ask you as one professional to another professional: "Please excite us with revolutionary approach". I will be first who will praise it but ONLY if it makes sense from the pathophysiological point of view.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

 

Gordon J. Wallis said:

How about a slight change of subject.. Forget the Kaufman techniques...There are tons of massage systems, styles, and various deep tissue systems that directly or indirectly release trigger points with varying degrees of success.  Ive always kept things really simple...I dont like to think very much when doing my work...Lets say you come accross a painful trigger point, say in the lower lumbar.. Whats wrong with simply pressing on it in a way that hurts good to the client?  Often enough, that works...and its simple...I mean my massage career was jump started when I accidentally cured a Dr. of his back pain by giving him a simple shiatsu massage. The only danger or problem I see would be excessive pressure...And only a beginning therapist would do that.  To me.. trigger points are simple...Its good to have an idea of referd pain patters, thats helpful...but.  I just dont see the complicatedness you seem to be into?  Or that it has to be done your way, or it wont work? or could be dangerous?  Soft tissue release is a very good therapy...They dont even talk about trigger points, and  that system, works great on them...without knowledge of your protocols...However, Im sure what you do works.  But I hardly think your approach, although well thought out, is nessicary for removal of trigger points.  Thats all...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 13, 2011 at 9:08am

Boris, this thing has been rolling downhill and shows little sign of slowing.  Well, I am attempting to apply the brakes. 

I have not discounted your expertise; in fact, I have availed myself of it many times.  Your youtube training videos are much appreciated.  Dr Ross I don't know, not even by reputation.  When you felt your expertise was being discounted even by inference, your friend Dr Ross stepped in to defend.  When I felt that my friend Gordon's reputation was being besmirched, I stepped up in defense.  That is what friends do for friends. That is what I did for you when you were attacked in another thread; that is what I have done for Gordon.

 

Regarding Kaufman, when I visited the site, frankly, I wasn't impressed.  Everything found online re: PNT is a frigging testimonial.  It's all flash, no substance.  But Gordon uses it with his client base, and insists that it works.  I live on social security while attending school, so I certainly cannot buy the "secret" from Kaufman; I cannot examine the technique for myself, even as a client.  In fact, the only massage I receive right now are tradeoffs with fellow students.  But my friend, whom I have no reason not to trust, says that Kaufman's technique is legitimate.  Therese says it works, with the caveat that she too doesn't understand how it works.  Regarding the statement that light pressure on trigger points causes myelosis.  I don't understand how pressure applied to, say, a trigger point in the rectus femoris can create a tumor in the spine.  As you yourself have remarked more than once, Boris, a therapist doesn't have to break bones in order to release trigger points.  One person's light pressure is another person's screaming pain. Are we in agreement so far?

 

Alright, perhaps I should have sat back and allowed Gordon to defend himself.  After all, as you have reminded me I am nothing but a student.  I and all other students rely on educators such as yourself.  As I read in Massage&Bodywork, a decade ago, most massage schools held their meetings in someone's garage, the only textbooks were the teacher's handwritten notebooks.  Gordon came up through that; he obtained most of his knowledge through personal study coupled with hands' on experience.  I daresay that most if not all of today's experts learned the same way.  Before there were people like you, there was...guesswork.  Trigger Point mapping guides didn't descend from Heaven; many someones had to experiment and pool their knowledge.  The body of knowledge was deveoped largely through trial and error.  A few people probably earn a good living by providing CEUs.  But people like Myers, Benjamin, Prilutsky, et alial, become teachers not to become wealthy but for the sheer enjoyment of sharing knowledge   Kaufman is holding whatever knowledge he holds very close and very private.  His choice.  I really would like to know whether his method works--I want to learn.

 

I am glad that you and Gordon are reaching an understanding; becoming more civil to one another.  I intend to learn from the both of you.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Gary.I am very much proud to call myself an actual hands' on therapist. And no matter if one practicing medical massage, Swedish massage etc. we are an actual hands' on therapists. This is what clinicians doing, providing hands on therapy .and this is nothing ridiculous in this definition but opposite.

Dr.Ross who is MD .PhD who many years was surgeon is an actual hands' on therapist. My grandfather rest in peace neurologist sports medicine expert MD .PhD was actual hands' on   therapist, my professor Alexander Dembo MD PhD was  actual hands' on therapist, Prof. Popelansky  MD PhD was  actual hands' on therapist, Prof. Kremer MD PhD, professor Boris Ivanov MD an actual hands' on therapist  and many more . Medical and sports massage is scientifically developed very simple to learn,and if  to operate correct virtually side effects free and extremely powerful methodology. I come from country where mandatory CE programs for physicians use to offer hands-on training and specifically for practicing physicians. There was waiting list of physicians to attend hands-on seminars at our center to become an actual hands' on therapist. Once when will the less destruction of professional discussion I will be able to brief readers on a very interesting history of Russian medical and sports. And guess what it was secrets involve, but not anymore. Soviet government do not controlling anymore and for more than 30 years I and Dr. Ross  can share this secrets with no secrets.

 You said:You are not the be-all end-all, therapists are permitted to make their own decisions. 

You're right. This is free country. You still student in massage program and making your own decisions to participate and offer opinion related to massage therapy subjects. But Dr. Ross is a one of “be-all end-all”. your arrogance and ignorance do not allow you to appreciate expert like he is and  you just lost potential   great teacher.

 

You said:”I defended Gordon's right to use whatever methods have been working for him, on his clients, for more than 2 decades. 

My goodness Gary. Help yourself. What are you talking about. I mean about what  Gordon’s methods you are talking about???? You just at  another post claimed that this is “secret”and he is

being very honest and moral fellow And can not harm to Dr. Kaufman income by telling us this secret.

You said:  I am certain that several thousand experienced therapists quietly disagree with that comment. 

Gary. I already said to you. you even not in the beginning of career as massage therapist. You can  not be certain. Just come down and study. This all.

 

You said:You declare absolutely that it cannot work--and that, my friend, is my disagreement with you, the reason that I ask both you and Boris to prove that it cannot work. 

Gary.No one claimed nothing about If Kaufmann's secret work or not. Remember this is secret. This ridiculous claims like he treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex…. in my eyes he is uneducated person . Nothing to prove here. If you want to make a career in our fields just study, and progress one step at a time. Just come down. All this excitement as a student you cannot afford. It obviously confusing you. I mean at one post you claiming that we didn't want to consider Gordon’s methodology which he never have introduced us to it, in other post you claiming that he cannot reveal the secrets. You see you cannot make your mind. You want us to offer opinion on what????

In one post you said after reviewing Kaufmann’s site, you disagree with his claim that's stretch reflex can be triggered on table(remember I explained to you that it is possible to trigger stretch reflex on table. I hope you did learn It) Besides my explanation that proposing treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex which is possible but only with people who suffering from terrible neurological disorder and it  have nothing to do with trigger point therapy , you offering us to pay money and study from Kaufman???????? You see.you  have to come down. All this confusing you. Honestly I really disappointed and taking no pleasure that all come down to this kind of talk. Feel no guilt about it just sorry. In the end this ongoing discussion is a good one because helping us to form standards of professional discussion as well reliving a lot of important permission besides information proposing not proposed in our article. This all Gary. A really sorry that this come down like this with you. At this point I also exhaust all in talking to you.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gary W Addis said:

Hopefully for the last time, turchininov, I address you.  I said nothing in any of my posts that was not true.  You began the animosity by referring to an experienced massage professional--an actual hands' on therapist-- as ridiculous, that his methods are harmful without detailing how it is harmful.  You are not the be-all end-all, therapists are permitted to make their own decisions. 

About me, you have just now said, "However I would like to personally address Gary for the last time. Gary, I really enjoyed your arrogance remark.However  I would like you to go back to your post which started all this mess. Just read it carefully and you will see that in one short post  you successfully placed Gordon against Travel, me against Gordon, etc. Unfortunately to unwind complicated knot you created required  all participants to be mentioned (even dead Travell). My response generated your fury and as a result instead of productive professional discussion post became marketplace type conversation. Please read and compare posts before and after your 'creative' contribution."

 

Sir, I did not start anything, I did not put anyone against anyone.  To declare that I have is ludicrous.  I defended Gordon's right to use whatever methods have been working for him, on his clients, for more than 2 decades.  Travell was mentioned by Gordon in defending himself against what may have been an anger-derivative slip of the tongue by Boris, when he used the term "ridiculous" and you with the declarative statement that light pressure is harmful.  I am certain that several thousand experienced therapists quietly disagree with that comment.  My contribution was from the viewpoint of a student, one who is open to all modalities and methods.  The entire gist of my postings is that it is wrong--always wrong--to make a declarative statement about a treatment method that you yourself--personally--are not familiar with.

Note that I never once declared that Kaufman is the new guru, or even that I believe it works.  But it worked for Therese as a client and it works for Gordon as a therapist on his many satisfied clients.  I would love to see it in action, so that I can make an informed opinion regarding it.  You declare absolutely that it cannot work--and that, my friend, is my disagreement with you, the reason that I ask both you and Boris to prove that it cannot work.  You are a doctor, and may have lots of money.  Why don't you yourself pay Kaufman his fee and learn his method, then in your journal detail why it does not work-- if it doesn't, you would save lots of people from "causing myelosis" as you claim that Gordon's methodology does.  As for me, I will await your scientific exposition of the technique's efficacy before I form an opinion.

 

Now, go have a nice life.
Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Wow guys! You really have heated discussion! I started this post and I think we should have civilized conversation without getting on each other throat.

However I would like to personally address Gary for the last time. Gary, I really enjoyed your arrogance remark.However  I would like you to go back to your post which started all this mess. Just read it carefully and you will see that in one short post  you successfully placed Gordon against Travel, me against Gordon, etc. Unfortunately to unwind complicated knot you created required  all participants to be mentioned (even dead Travell). My response generated your fury and as a result instead of productive professional discussion post became marketplace type conversation. Please read and compare posts before and after your 'creative' contribution.

Now it  is time we come back to the issues and I hope that we stay there.

Gordon, I think you have all rights to practice what you think is the best for your clients. Yes, I also agree that Trigger Point Therapy is not a brain surgery despite the fact that in complicated cases it requires a lot  of thinking and trying. Boris is passionate guy and I believe so do you. I think that neither he or I doubts your skills. He worries that you oversimplifying the issue and such approach will limit practitioners' abilities to help clients with complicated clinical picture.

Personally I am student all my life and I will be happy to learn and try other things IF they really benefit my patients. So lets get back to the basic. You know my and Boris' position. All its details in the links to the trigger point article included in the first post. Neither I or Boris hide anything and all information even in the video format in step by step application in these link and it is FREE.

By the way we didn't developed this protocol so it is not correct when you mentioned that Boris wants everyone follow his views or protocol. Unfortunately we aren't authors of this information. It is a result of long clincal development in different countries. We just put it together in the simpliest way.

You have different view and trust me I deeply respect it. At the same time I think that I as well as all readers entitled to know what is physiological foundation of what are you doing and teaching. How exactly it works from your opinion? Also I think that we all will really appreciate if you provide some scientific data which justify your concept.

Sorry to say but the link to Kauffman's page is pure sale pitch. There is nothing there which allow the reader  to even slightly understand what it is all about. The only thing which is mentioned is large number MDs and it so simple that child can do it.

Sorry it didn't satisfied or impressed me at all. For example I gave presentation on trigger point therapy for more than 150 MDs during Annual Conference of  American Academy of Pain Management an they where ecstatic. However I never mentioned it (except this post as an example) on any of my websites or in publications. Boris by the way has professionals privileges in Sedar Sinai Hospital and regularly lecture to the residents there. Do I need to explain what Cedar Sinai Hospital is?

So I think that you will agree but Kauffman's page doesn't have any professional value except push to buy, In the contrary we put all information on the web without practitioners paining  almost $300 for DVD. At the same time you may save me and readers $300 by at least giving us outlines what his revolutionary treatment actually is based on and how it is conducted.

Dr.Kaufman only mentioned that his techniques are based on the activation of the Golgi tendon organ reflex. Great, but passive stretching or let say second part of PIR is based exactly on the activation of the same reflex. So, it is reasonable to ask from the basic scientific point of view if both approaches (Kauffman's and PIR) activate same receptors where is revolution? Do you think that Kauffman has special way to activate Golgi tendon organ receptors? However such assumption immediately becomes nonsense for one particular reason if receptor is activated it is activated SAME way without any differentiation how exactly it was done. Each peripheral receptor (including Goldgi tendon organs) is the simple switch. It has only two positions "off" and "on". The complicated analysis and formation of response happened on the level of spinal cord. This is basic of neurology.

Thus if we leave personal issues at the door we may ask you as one professional to another professional: "Please excite us with revolutionary approach". I will be first who will praise it but ONLY if it makes sense from the pathophysiological point of view.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

 

Gordon J. Wallis said:

How about a slight change of subject.. Forget the Kaufman techniques...There are tons of massage systems, styles, and various deep tissue systems that directly or indirectly release trigger points with varying degrees of success.  Ive always kept things really simple...I dont like to think very much when doing my work...Lets say you come accross a painful trigger point, say in the lower lumbar.. Whats wrong with simply pressing on it in a way that hurts good to the client?  Often enough, that works...and its simple...I mean my massage career was jump started when I accidentally cured a Dr. of his back pain by giving him a simple shiatsu massage. The only danger or problem I see would be excessive pressure...And only a beginning therapist would do that.  To me.. trigger points are simple...Its good to have an idea of referd pain patters, thats helpful...but.  I just dont see the complicatedness you seem to be into?  Or that it has to be done your way, or it wont work? or could be dangerous?  Soft tissue release is a very good therapy...They dont even talk about trigger points, and  that system, works great on them...without knowledge of your protocols...However, Im sure what you do works.  But I hardly think your approach, although well thought out, is nessicary for removal of trigger points.  Thats all...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 13, 2011 at 8:55pm

Dear Therese.

I really sorry that so much time was wasted, because of this  destructions.work on professional articles demanding a lot of time  and when you are offering this works to your colleagues you expecting some respect and appreciation, as well,you expecting comments and questions related to article's subject. In case if one disagree then one referring  you to specific statements from  article that one disagree,including but not limited  to proposing some information that one believe that much more definitive but have to do this in professional manner. The matter-of-fact is that no Dr. Ross as well myself not capable to propose some ridiculous nonsense.forgive me for not being a humble, we are a reliable, no secrets source for professional information.myself and probably Dr. Ross too, hoping to develop great professional relationship with members of this site and most likely never will disappoint no one but will contribute.please sometimes continue to check with us.we are volunteering to propose  material and if one don't like it can ignore posts, but if one disagree than have to act in acceptable professional manners.never again we will allow to disrupt.this is for sure. Next time in such situation I just will ignore / disregard this kind of posts/distractions.

Best wishes

Boris

Therese Schwartz said:

Boris, my new massage therapist has some of your DVD's and she really likes them!  I have clients with low back pain so your upcoming article sounds really interesting!

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

At a personal level, I have gotten too caught up in all this and need to back off from reading the forum so often.  It's become an interference and a distraction from my work and I'm re-prioritizing things.  I will still check in weekly to see what I can learn!  

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