Response to "Knot in a muscle' post

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dr. Ross Turchaninov on July 14, 2011 at 1:55am

Gary

 

I also hope that we will stop addressing each other because it is very destructive. The sad part that you are fighting for the cause you don't have any idea what it is all about. According to you Gordon got 'secret" knowledge he didn't share with you because Kauffman holds it back. Don't you think it is strange when person fights not knowing what he fights for and it seems just for the pleasure of fight. In regard to controversy you found in my posts. Problem that you are not reading them. They addressed completely different subjects. BTW there is no such thing as 'myelosis' I believe you wanted to say myogelosis. The fact that you are not familiar with terminology doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Please, you are such destructive force here that it will be better for everyone if you start to participate in other discussions. I just ask you to give everyone break.

 

Dr. Ross Turchninov

Gary W Addis said:

Boris, this thing has been rolling downhill and shows little sign of slowing.  Well, I am attempting to apply the brakes. 

I have not discounted your expertise; in fact, I have availed myself of it many times.  Your youtube training videos are much appreciated.  Dr Ross I don't know, not even by reputation.  When you felt your expertise was being discounted even by inference, your friend Dr Ross stepped in to defend.  When I felt that my friend Gordon's reputation was being besmirched, I stepped up in defense.  That is what friends do for friends. That is what I did for you when you were attacked in another thread; that is what I have done for Gordon.

 

Regarding Kaufman, when I visited the site, frankly, I wasn't impressed.  Everything found online re: PNT is a frigging testimonial.  It's all flash, no substance.  But Gordon uses it with his client base, and insists that it works.  I live on social security while attending school, so I certainly cannot buy the "secret" from Kaufman; I cannot examine the technique for myself, even as a client.  In fact, the only massage I receive right now are tradeoffs with fellow students.  But my friend, whom I have no reason not to trust, says that Kaufman's technique is legitimate.  Therese says it works, with the caveat that she too doesn't understand how it works.  Regarding the statement that light pressure on trigger points causes myelosis.  I don't understand how pressure applied to, say, a trigger point in the rectus femoris can create a tumor in the spine.  As you yourself have remarked more than once, Boris, a therapist doesn't have to break bones in order to release trigger points.  One person's light pressure is another person's screaming pain. Are we in agreement so far?

 

Alright, perhaps I should have sat back and allowed Gordon to defend himself.  After all, as you have reminded me I am nothing but a student.  I and all other students rely on educators such as yourself.  As I read in Massage&Bodywork, a decade ago, most massage schools held their meetings in someone's garage, the only textbooks were the teacher's handwritten notebooks.  Gordon came up through that; he obtained most of his knowledge through personal study coupled with hands' on experience.  I daresay that most if not all of today's experts learned the same way.  Before there were people like you, there was...guesswork.  Trigger Point mapping guides didn't descend from Heaven; many someones had to experiment and pool their knowledge.  The body of knowledge was deveoped largely through trial and error.  A few people probably earn a good living by providing CEUs.  But people like Myers, Benjamin, Prilutsky, et alial, become teachers not to become wealthy but for the sheer enjoyment of sharing knowledge   Kaufman is holding whatever knowledge he holds very close and very private.  His choice.  I really would like to know whether his method works--I want to learn.

 

I am glad that you and Gordon are reaching an understanding; becoming more civil to one another.  I intend to learn from the both of you.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Gary.I am very much proud to call myself an actual hands' on therapist. And no matter if one practicing medical massage, Swedish massage etc. we are an actual hands' on therapists. This is what clinicians doing, providing hands on therapy .and this is nothing ridiculous in this definition but opposite.

Dr.Ross who is MD .PhD who many years was surgeon is an actual hands' on therapist. My grandfather rest in peace neurologist sports medicine expert MD .PhD was actual hands' on   therapist, my professor Alexander Dembo MD PhD was  actual hands' on therapist, Prof. Popelansky  MD PhD was  actual hands' on therapist, Prof. Kremer MD PhD, professor Boris Ivanov MD an actual hands' on therapist  and many more . Medical and sports massage is scientifically developed very simple to learn,and if  to operate correct virtually side effects free and extremely powerful methodology. I come from country where mandatory CE programs for physicians use to offer hands-on training and specifically for practicing physicians. There was waiting list of physicians to attend hands-on seminars at our center to become an actual hands' on therapist. Once when will the less destruction of professional discussion I will be able to brief readers on a very interesting history of Russian medical and sports. And guess what it was secrets involve, but not anymore. Soviet government do not controlling anymore and for more than 30 years I and Dr. Ross  can share this secrets with no secrets.

 You said:You are not the be-all end-all, therapists are permitted to make their own decisions. 

You're right. This is free country. You still student in massage program and making your own decisions to participate and offer opinion related to massage therapy subjects. But Dr. Ross is a one of “be-all end-all”. your arrogance and ignorance do not allow you to appreciate expert like he is and  you just lost potential   great teacher.

 

You said:”I defended Gordon's right to use whatever methods have been working for him, on his clients, for more than 2 decades. 

My goodness Gary. Help yourself. What are you talking about. I mean about what  Gordon’s methods you are talking about???? You just at  another post claimed that this is “secret”and he is

being very honest and moral fellow And can not harm to Dr. Kaufman income by telling us this secret.

You said:  I am certain that several thousand experienced therapists quietly disagree with that comment. 

Gary. I already said to you. you even not in the beginning of career as massage therapist. You can  not be certain. Just come down and study. This all.

 

You said:You declare absolutely that it cannot work--and that, my friend, is my disagreement with you, the reason that I ask both you and Boris to prove that it cannot work. 

Gary.No one claimed nothing about If Kaufmann's secret work or not. Remember this is secret. This ridiculous claims like he treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex…. in my eyes he is uneducated person . Nothing to prove here. If you want to make a career in our fields just study, and progress one step at a time. Just come down. All this excitement as a student you cannot afford. It obviously confusing you. I mean at one post you claiming that we didn't want to consider Gordon’s methodology which he never have introduced us to it, in other post you claiming that he cannot reveal the secrets. You see you cannot make your mind. You want us to offer opinion on what????

In one post you said after reviewing Kaufmann’s site, you disagree with his claim that's stretch reflex can be triggered on table(remember I explained to you that it is possible to trigger stretch reflex on table. I hope you did learn It) Besides my explanation that proposing treating trigger points by triggering clasp knife reflex which is possible but only with people who suffering from terrible neurological disorder and it  have nothing to do with trigger point therapy , you offering us to pay money and study from Kaufman???????? You see.you  have to come down. All this confusing you. Honestly I really disappointed and taking no pleasure that all come down to this kind of talk. Feel no guilt about it just sorry. In the end this ongoing discussion is a good one because helping us to form standards of professional discussion as well reliving a lot of important permission besides information proposing not proposed in our article. This all Gary. A really sorry that this come down like this with you. At this point I also exhaust all in talking to you.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gary W Addis said:

Hopefully for the last time, turchininov, I address you.  I said nothing in any of my posts that was not true.  You began the animosity by referring to an experienced massage professional--an actual hands' on therapist-- as ridiculous, that his methods are harmful without detailing how it is harmful.  You are not the be-all end-all, therapists are permitted to make their own decisions. 

About me, you have just now said, "However I would like to personally address Gary for the last time. Gary, I really enjoyed your arrogance remark.However  I would like you to go back to your post which started all this mess. Just read it carefully and you will see that in one short post  you successfully placed Gordon against Travel, me against Gordon, etc. Unfortunately to unwind complicated knot you created required  all participants to be mentioned (even dead Travell). My response generated your fury and as a result instead of productive professional discussion post became marketplace type conversation. Please read and compare posts before and after your 'creative' contribution."

 

Sir, I did not start anything, I did not put anyone against anyone.  To declare that I have is ludicrous.  I defended Gordon's right to use whatever methods have been working for him, on his clients, for more than 2 decades.  Travell was mentioned by Gordon in defending himself against what may have been an anger-derivative slip of the tongue by Boris, when he used the term "ridiculous" and you with the declarative statement that light pressure is harmful.  I am certain that several thousand experienced therapists quietly disagree with that comment.  My contribution was from the viewpoint of a student, one who is open to all modalities and methods.  The entire gist of my postings is that it is wrong--always wrong--to make a declarative statement about a treatment method that you yourself--personally--are not familiar with.

Note that I never once declared that Kaufman is the new guru, or even that I believe it works.  But it worked for Therese as a client and it works for Gordon as a therapist on his many satisfied clients.  I would love to see it in action, so that I can make an informed opinion regarding it.  You declare absolutely that it cannot work--and that, my friend, is my disagreement with you, the reason that I ask both you and Boris to prove that it cannot work.  You are a doctor, and may have lots of money.  Why don't you yourself pay Kaufman his fee and learn his method, then in your journal detail why it does not work-- if it doesn't, you would save lots of people from "causing myelosis" as you claim that Gordon's methodology does.  As for me, I will await your scientific exposition of the technique's efficacy before I form an opinion.

 

Now, go have a nice life.
Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Wow guys! You really have heated discussion! I started this post and I think we should have civilized conversation without getting on each other throat.

However I would like to personally address Gary for the last time. Gary, I really enjoyed your arrogance remark.However  I would like you to go back to your post which started all this mess. Just read it carefully and you will see that in one short post  you successfully placed Gordon against Travel, me against Gordon, etc. Unfortunately to unwind complicated knot you created required  all participants to be mentioned (even dead Travell). My response generated your fury and as a result instead of productive professional discussion post became marketplace type conversation. Please read and compare posts before and after your 'creative' contribution.

Now it  is time we come back to the issues and I hope that we stay there.

Gordon, I think you have all rights to practice what you think is the best for your clients. Yes, I also agree that Trigger Point Therapy is not a brain surgery despite the fact that in complicated cases it requires a lot  of thinking and trying. Boris is passionate guy and I believe so do you. I think that neither he or I doubts your skills. He worries that you oversimplifying the issue and such approach will limit practitioners' abilities to help clients with complicated clinical picture.

Personally I am student all my life and I will be happy to learn and try other things IF they really benefit my patients. So lets get back to the basic. You know my and Boris' position. All its details in the links to the trigger point article included in the first post. Neither I or Boris hide anything and all information even in the video format in step by step application in these link and it is FREE.

By the way we didn't developed this protocol so it is not correct when you mentioned that Boris wants everyone follow his views or protocol. Unfortunately we aren't authors of this information. It is a result of long clincal development in different countries. We just put it together in the simpliest way.

You have different view and trust me I deeply respect it. At the same time I think that I as well as all readers entitled to know what is physiological foundation of what are you doing and teaching. How exactly it works from your opinion? Also I think that we all will really appreciate if you provide some scientific data which justify your concept.

Sorry to say but the link to Kauffman's page is pure sale pitch. There is nothing there which allow the reader  to even slightly understand what it is all about. The only thing which is mentioned is large number MDs and it so simple that child can do it.

Sorry it didn't satisfied or impressed me at all. For example I gave presentation on trigger point therapy for more than 150 MDs during Annual Conference of  American Academy of Pain Management an they where ecstatic. However I never mentioned it (except this post as an example) on any of my websites or in publications. Boris by the way has professionals privileges in Sedar Sinai Hospital and regularly lecture to the residents there. Do I need to explain what Cedar Sinai Hospital is?

So I think that you will agree but Kauffman's page doesn't have any professional value except push to buy, In the contrary we put all information on the web without practitioners paining  almost $300 for DVD. At the same time you may save me and readers $300 by at least giving us outlines what his revolutionary treatment actually is based on and how it is conducted.

Dr.Kaufman only mentioned that his techniques are based on the activation of the Golgi tendon organ reflex. Great, but passive stretching or let say second part of PIR is based exactly on the activation of the same reflex. So, it is reasonable to ask from the basic scientific point of view if both approaches (Kauffman's and PIR) activate same receptors where is revolution? Do you think that Kauffman has special way to activate Golgi tendon organ receptors? However such assumption immediately becomes nonsense for one particular reason if receptor is activated it is activated SAME way without any differentiation how exactly it was done. Each peripheral receptor (including Goldgi tendon organs) is the simple switch. It has only two positions "off" and "on". The complicated analysis and formation of response happened on the level of spinal cord. This is basic of neurology.

Thus if we leave personal issues at the door we may ask you as one professional to another professional: "Please excite us with revolutionary approach". I will be first who will praise it but ONLY if it makes sense from the pathophysiological point of view.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

 

Gordon J. Wallis said:

How about a slight change of subject.. Forget the Kaufman techniques...There are tons of massage systems, styles, and various deep tissue systems that directly or indirectly release trigger points with varying degrees of success.  Ive always kept things really simple...I dont like to think very much when doing my work...Lets say you come accross a painful trigger point, say in the lower lumbar.. Whats wrong with simply pressing on it in a way that hurts good to the client?  Often enough, that works...and its simple...I mean my massage career was jump started when I accidentally cured a Dr. of his back pain by giving him a simple shiatsu massage. The only danger or problem I see would be excessive pressure...And only a beginning therapist would do that.  To me.. trigger points are simple...Its good to have an idea of referd pain patters, thats helpful...but.  I just dont see the complicatedness you seem to be into?  Or that it has to be done your way, or it wont work? or could be dangerous?  Soft tissue release is a very good therapy...They dont even talk about trigger points, and  that system, works great on them...without knowledge of your protocols...However, Im sure what you do works.  But I hardly think your approach, although well thought out, is nessicary for removal of trigger points.  Thats all...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 14, 2011 at 9:01am

In a private post to you, I have apologized, and discussed in detail my mistakes.  I was not the only one to go astray in the thread, but I was the worst offender.  Instead of leaping to anyone else's defense, I should have kept shut and allowed him to fight his own battles.  Myelosis is a medullary tumor.  But, yes, I was referring to myogelosis.  I spent considerable time on your website yesterday evening, and I learned.  For instance, I learned that some of the things labeled trigger points by one class instructor are not trigger points, neither active nor dormant.  I learned that I still have so much to learn.  The link to the videos in the second installment of your TP articles may be broken (the first video worked, but the others wouldn't load, but that may have been a problem in my machine).

Incidentally, I was not defending Kaufman's website which I too believe is long on sales pitch but devoid of details; I was defending a friend.  And I should have stayed out of it.  So again I publicly apologize. 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Gary

 

I also hope that we will stop addressing each other because it is very destructive. The sad part that you are fighting for the cause you don't have any idea what it is all about. According to you Gordon got 'secret" knowledge he didn't share with you because Kauffman holds it back. Don't you think it is strange when person fights not knowing what he fights for and it seems just for the pleasure of fight. In regard to controversy you found in my posts. Problem that you are not reading them. They addressed completely different subjects. BTW there is no such thing as 'myelosis' I believe you wanted to say myogelosis. The fact that you are not familiar with terminology doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Please, you are such destructive force here that it will be better for everyone if you start to participate in other discussions. I just ask you to give everyone break.

 

Dr. Ross Turchninov

Gary W Addis said:

Boris, this thing has been rolling downhill and shows little sign of slowing.  Well, I am attempting to apply the brakes. 

I have not discounted your expertise; in fact, I have availed myself of it many times.  Your youtube training videos are much appreciated.  Dr Ross I don't know, not even by reputation.  When you felt your expertise was being discounted even by inference, your friend Dr Ross stepped in to defend.  When I felt that my friend Gordon's reputation was being besmirched, I stepped up in defense.  That is what friends do for friends. That is what I did for you when you were attacked in another thread; that is what I have done for Gordon.

 

Regarding Kaufman, when I visited the site, frankly, I wasn't impressed.  Everything found online re: PNT is a frigging testimonial.  It's all flash, no substance.  But Gordon uses it with his client base, and insists that it works.  I live on social security while attending school, so I certainly cannot buy the "secret" from Kaufman; I cannot examine the technique for myself, even as a client.  In fact, the only massage I receive right now are tradeoffs with fellow students.  But my friend, whom I have no reason not to trust, says that Kaufman's technique is legitimate.  Therese says it works, with the caveat that she too doesn't understand how it works.  Regarding the statement that light pressure on trigger points causes myelosis.  I don't understand how pressure applied to, say, a trigger point in the rectus femoris can create a tumor in the spine.  As you yourself have remarked more than once, Boris, a therapist doesn't have to break bones in order to release trigger points.  One person's light pressure is another person's screaming pain. Are we in agreement so far?

 

Alright, perhaps I should have sat back and allowed Gordon to defend himself.  After all, as you have reminded me I am nothing but a student.  I and all other students rely on educators such as yourself.  As I read in Massage&Bodywork, a decade ago, most massage schools held their meetings in someone's garage, the only textbooks were the teacher's handwritten notebooks.  Gordon came up through that; he obtained most of his knowledge through personal study coupled with hands' on experience.  I daresay that most if not all of today's experts learned the same way.  Before there were people like you, there was...guesswork.  Trigger Point mapping guides didn't descend from Heaven; many someones had to experiment and pool their knowledge.  The body of knowledge was deveoped largely through trial and error.  A few people probably earn a good living by providing CEUs.  But people like Myers, Benjamin, Prilutsky, et alial, become teachers not to become wealthy but for the sheer enjoyment of sharing knowledge   Kaufman is holding whatever knowledge he holds very close and very private.  His choice.  I really would like to know whether his method works--I want to learn.

 

I am glad that you and Gordon are reaching an understanding; becoming more civil to one another.  I intend to learn from the both of you.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 14, 2011 at 11:47am

Dear Gary.
a moment ago I also received private e-mail from you,including  mistake
realization and apology.With happiness in my heart I'm accepting apology.
Honestly was very worried about our friendship as well as your
career opportunity. Thanks. I do believe you have  potential but according to
your involvement at this site you could destroy it before it started. thank God
you did realize it. I started losing respect to you for reasons that I expressed
in my  previous posts/ replies to you. But with your apology I could see real 
strong person in you and respecting you even more now.
following link is to the video footage where I am explaining and demonstrating
principles of trigger point therapy applications. hopping it will be helpful
tool additional to article information.using the opportunity would like to
express my opinion on pressure application durations.all clinical observation as
well as research  data suggesting that 30 seconds in total including reaching
two thresholds is  fulfilling the goal. I really not sure if  three minutes as
was mentioned in one of the Gordon's posts can be harmful but I think it is not needed.
Actually  ischemic compression in some way traumatizing small blood vessels
therefore I really wouldn't recommend to apply three-minute duration.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgisAtZJ7k4

Very best wishes.

your friend.
Boris Prilutsky.

Gary W Addis said:

In a private post to you, I have apologized, and discussed in detail my mistakes.  I was not the only one to go astray in the thread, but I was the worst offender.  Instead of leaping to anyone else's defense, I should have kept shut and allowed him to fight his own battles.  Myelosis is a medullary tumor.  But, yes, I was referring to myogelosis.  I spent considerable time on your website yesterday evening, and I learned.  For instance, I learned that some of the things labeled trigger points by one class instructor are not trigger points, neither active nor dormant.  I learned that I still have so much to learn.  The link to the videos in the second installment of your TP articles may be broken (the first video worked, but the others wouldn't load, but that may have been a problem in my machine).

Incidentally, I was not defending Kaufman's website which I too believe is long on sales pitch but devoid of details; I was defending a friend.  And I should have stayed out of it.  So again I publicly apologize. 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Gary

 

I also hope that we will stop addressing each other because it is very destructive. The sad part that you are fighting for the cause you don't have any idea what it is all about. According to you Gordon got 'secret" knowledge he didn't share with you because Kauffman holds it back. Don't you think it is strange when person fights not knowing what he fights for and it seems just for the pleasure of fight. In regard to controversy you found in my posts. Problem that you are not reading them. They addressed completely different subjects. BTW there is no such thing as 'myelosis' I believe you wanted to say myogelosis. The fact that you are not familiar with terminology doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Please, you are such destructive force here that it will be better for everyone if you start to participate in other discussions. I just ask you to give everyone break.

 

Dr. Ross Turchninov

Gary W Addis said:

Boris, this thing has been rolling downhill and shows little sign of slowing.  Well, I am attempting to apply the brakes. 

I have not discounted your expertise; in fact, I have availed myself of it many times.  Your youtube training videos are much appreciated.  Dr Ross I don't know, not even by reputation.  When you felt your expertise was being discounted even by inference, your friend Dr Ross stepped in to defend.  When I felt that my friend Gordon's reputation was being besmirched, I stepped up in defense.  That is what friends do for friends. That is what I did for you when you were attacked in another thread; that is what I have done for Gordon.

 

Regarding Kaufman, when I visited the site, frankly, I wasn't impressed.  Everything found online re: PNT is a frigging testimonial.  It's all flash, no substance.  But Gordon uses it with his client base, and insists that it works.  I live on social security while attending school, so I certainly cannot buy the "secret" from Kaufman; I cannot examine the technique for myself, even as a client.  In fact, the only massage I receive right now are tradeoffs with fellow students.  But my friend, whom I have no reason not to trust, says that Kaufman's technique is legitimate.  Therese says it works, with the caveat that she too doesn't understand how it works.  Regarding the statement that light pressure on trigger points causes myelosis.  I don't understand how pressure applied to, say, a trigger point in the rectus femoris can create a tumor in the spine.  As you yourself have remarked more than once, Boris, a therapist doesn't have to break bones in order to release trigger points.  One person's light pressure is another person's screaming pain. Are we in agreement so far?

 

Alright, perhaps I should have sat back and allowed Gordon to defend himself.  After all, as you have reminded me I am nothing but a student.  I and all other students rely on educators such as yourself.  As I read in Massage&Bodywork, a decade ago, most massage schools held their meetings in someone's garage, the only textbooks were the teacher's handwritten notebooks.  Gordon came up through that; he obtained most of his knowledge through personal study coupled with hands' on experience.  I daresay that most if not all of today's experts learned the same way.  Before there were people like you, there was...guesswork.  Trigger Point mapping guides didn't descend from Heaven; many someones had to experiment and pool their knowledge.  The body of knowledge was deveoped largely through trial and error.  A few people probably earn a good living by providing CEUs.  But people like Myers, Benjamin, Prilutsky, et alial, become teachers not to become wealthy but for the sheer enjoyment of sharing knowledge   Kaufman is holding whatever knowledge he holds very close and very private.  His choice.  I really would like to know whether his method works--I want to learn.

 

I am glad that you and Gordon are reaching an understanding; becoming more civil to one another.  I intend to learn from the both of you.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 14, 2011 at 5:04pm

Dear friends.
Yesterday on  YouTube site I received question if medical massage can help in cases of acid reflux. The following correspondence is my answer on how correctly applied abdominal /visceral massage protocol can significantly help people who suffering from this difficult disorder. At my NV AMTA free seminar presentation I will address this subject too. Just did  copy and paste entire correspondence. I hope that you will find this information useful.
Best wishes.
Boris
PS. Soon, most likely next week will be out issue of Journal of Massage  science, where we will present much more details on medical abdominal /visceral massage. We will let you know when issue will be out.

•    Hi Boris, can medical massage help with acid reflux? If so how? Many thanks, James
jamboni 3 weeks ago
•    ...continued... If we achieving mention above goals then lower esophageal sphincter function will be restored and symptoms will be eliminated because stomach acids will be not able to move to sphincter. Soon will be available for rent my video footage where I will demonstrate step-by-step protocol of abdominal /visceral massage
Best wishes.
Boris
mgaft1 20 hours ago
•    @mgaft1 Wow! Thank you for such an in depth reply Boris. I really appreciate it. I shall have to find a medical massage therapist nearby to see what they can do. I definitely notice that since I don't stretch every other day anymore that I have had more ailments, as this was a sort of self massage in a way. Thanks again, J
jamboni 20 hours ago
Uploader Comments (mgaft1)
•    @jamboni In many cases abdominal /visceral massage can significantly help people suffering from acid reflux diseases. At least 35% of the total arterial blood is provided to organs within the abdominal cavity. This means that the same quantity of venous blood must naturally be drained from the abdominal cavity. If drainage is impaired, venous stasis develops and various functional abnormalities may manifest...to be continued...
mgaft1 20 hours ago
•    ...continuation...manifest (e.g. Diverticulosis, Irritable Bowl Syndrome, Constipation) genito-urinary system (e.g. acid reflux diseases. Infertility, PMS, Prostatitis) or pre-existing pathological conditions may worsen.
The lower esophageal sphincter is a valve that separating stomach and usually will immediately be closed when food passes through this valve. ... to be continued...
mgaft1 20 hours ago
•    ...continued... Many times, due to mention above condition within abdominal cavities, (venous stasis, edema, inflammations) this valve not closing entirely or opens up pretty frequently. Therefore stomach acids moves to the sphincter. The first goal of AM is to eliminate venous stasis and reduce the abdominal lymphedema.  .... to be continued...
mgaft1 20 hours ago
•    ...continued...Secondarily, it is to improve functions of the inner organs, including but not limited to tensions reduction within smooth muscles of abdominal structures, resulting reduction in Abdominal and lower back pain. The next targets of AM are to address existing adhesions and affected inner organs, using visceral massage techniques. ...to be continued...
mgaft1 20 hours ago
 PS. Many times when abdominal structures including lower esophageal sphincter are inflamed/swallowing it fashionably shifted a bit  and on diagnostic images it could be viewed like hiatal hernia. Of course real diagnostic  by qualified doctors needed.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dr. Ross Turchaninov on July 15, 2011 at 12:41am

Hi Gary

We all passionate about what we are doing and we all sometimes make mistakes and overreact. I am not in the position to judge because I made same mistakes in the past. The quality of the person in his or her ability to recognize missteps. For this reason you e-mail is pure enjoyment for me. I also glad that you visited www.scienceofmassage.com and you found it helpful. It took us three years to put it together(information wise). We analyzed hundreds and hundreds of medical sources on medical massage aspects starting from the beginning of the 20th century until present from all major countries. Using search window you may find a lot of helpful information on any subject.

Another issue I would like to address is why I am here. I have so many obligations and projects at the same time that it is difficult for me to find time to follow all posts. I decided to be part of this website for one particular reason to help practitioners with answers to questions they may have. I don't like to play games. You have question I will give you the best answer I can find which is based on science. It may be not what you are expecting for but it is what I have. Since 1986 I worked on so many patients with sometimes such bizarre conditions that it gave me incredible clinical experience. My motivation was to share this experience with you and others. You have client you are struggling with, ask me, I maybe able to send your thoughts in the right direction. BTW this is what we do in the Forum part of the scienceofmassage website.

I am glad that we are on the same page and can enjoy each other intellectual abilities for the sake of patients

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

Gary W Addis said:

In a private post to you, I have apologized, and discussed in detail my mistakes.  I was not the only one to go astray in the thread, but I was the worst offender.  Instead of leaping to anyone else's defense, I should have kept shut and allowed him to fight his own battles.  Myelosis is a medullary tumor.  But, yes, I was referring to myogelosis.  I spent considerable time on your website yesterday evening, and I learned.  For instance, I learned that some of the things labeled trigger points by one class instructor are not trigger points, neither active nor dormant.  I learned that I still have so much to learn.  The link to the videos in the second installment of your TP articles may be broken (the first video worked, but the others wouldn't load, but that may have been a problem in my machine).

Incidentally, I was not defending Kaufman's website which I too believe is long on sales pitch but devoid of details; I was defending a friend.  And I should have stayed out of it.  So again I publicly apologize. 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Gary

 

I also hope that we will stop addressing each other because it is very destructive. The sad part that you are fighting for the cause you don't have any idea what it is all about. According to you Gordon got 'secret" knowledge he didn't share with you because Kauffman holds it back. Don't you think it is strange when person fights not knowing what he fights for and it seems just for the pleasure of fight. In regard to controversy you found in my posts. Problem that you are not reading them. They addressed completely different subjects. BTW there is no such thing as 'myelosis' I believe you wanted to say myogelosis. The fact that you are not familiar with terminology doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Please, you are such destructive force here that it will be better for everyone if you start to participate in other discussions. I just ask you to give everyone break.

 

Dr. Ross Turchninov

Gary W Addis said:

Boris, this thing has been rolling downhill and shows little sign of slowing.  Well, I am attempting to apply the brakes. 

I have not discounted your expertise; in fact, I have availed myself of it many times.  Your youtube training videos are much appreciated.  Dr Ross I don't know, not even by reputation.  When you felt your expertise was being discounted even by inference, your friend Dr Ross stepped in to defend.  When I felt that my friend Gordon's reputation was being besmirched, I stepped up in defense.  That is what friends do for friends. That is what I did for you when you were attacked in another thread; that is what I have done for Gordon.

 

Regarding Kaufman, when I visited the site, frankly, I wasn't impressed.  Everything found online re: PNT is a frigging testimonial.  It's all flash, no substance.  But Gordon uses it with his client base, and insists that it works.  I live on social security while attending school, so I certainly cannot buy the "secret" from Kaufman; I cannot examine the technique for myself, even as a client.  In fact, the only massage I receive right now are tradeoffs with fellow students.  But my friend, whom I have no reason not to trust, says that Kaufman's technique is legitimate.  Therese says it works, with the caveat that she too doesn't understand how it works.  Regarding the statement that light pressure on trigger points causes myelosis.  I don't understand how pressure applied to, say, a trigger point in the rectus femoris can create a tumor in the spine.  As you yourself have remarked more than once, Boris, a therapist doesn't have to break bones in order to release trigger points.  One person's light pressure is another person's screaming pain. Are we in agreement so far?

 

Alright, perhaps I should have sat back and allowed Gordon to defend himself.  After all, as you have reminded me I am nothing but a student.  I and all other students rely on educators such as yourself.  As I read in Massage&Bodywork, a decade ago, most massage schools held their meetings in someone's garage, the only textbooks were the teacher's handwritten notebooks.  Gordon came up through that; he obtained most of his knowledge through personal study coupled with hands' on experience.  I daresay that most if not all of today's experts learned the same way.  Before there were people like you, there was...guesswork.  Trigger Point mapping guides didn't descend from Heaven; many someones had to experiment and pool their knowledge.  The body of knowledge was deveoped largely through trial and error.  A few people probably earn a good living by providing CEUs.  But people like Myers, Benjamin, Prilutsky, et alial, become teachers not to become wealthy but for the sheer enjoyment of sharing knowledge   Kaufman is holding whatever knowledge he holds very close and very private.  His choice.  I really would like to know whether his method works--I want to learn.

 

I am glad that you and Gordon are reaching an understanding; becoming more civil to one another.  I intend to learn from the both of you.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 15, 2011 at 1:16am

Dr Turchaninov, can I ask you a question I haven't been able to get answered anywhere else?

 

Working anterior to the traps but behind clavicle (with client supine), I have twice encountered a--mass is the only way I can describe it, it seems to be round, about inch in diameter, and 2-3 inches in length.  It doesn't extend to the shoulder joint nor all the way to the neck... it isn't hard or painful when pressed.  There is soft tissue, seemingly unconnected tissue to the front, back and to both sides.  Because it wasn't tender and I could not get my instructor over for advice at the time, rather than create a problem that wasn't then a problem for the client, I left it alone.  My first thought was that it might be the omohyoid--but the omohyoid does extend to the neck, doesn't it?   The scalenes don't run paralle.  I own primal pictures' excellent interactive functional anatomy, but the omohyoid muscle is the only thing I know of in the area.  I hope I have provided a recognizable description.  As I said, I have encountered this...mass in two people.

 

I did go to your website when you first offered it, but skimmed it quickly, and the real steak and potatoes are in the 2nd part of the article.  In the school clinic we have zero time to perform evaluations--we barely have time to exchange a few whispered words with our clients before we begin to work (from the moment they sign in at the office, the 1 hr clock is ticking).  I give a great "feel-good" massage, and do pretty good DT/MFR work on problem areas that are reported to me (within the time constraints).  Feel good massage is fun to receive and easy enough for the therapist to give, but I want to ease pain and restore movement-- I want the skills of a clinical massage therapist.  I am 63, and the clock is ticking. But I will try to rein in my impatience and take it one step at a time.

 

Thank you for understanding this overeager aging pup.

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Hi Gary

We all passionate about what we are doing and we all sometimes make mistakes and overreact. I am not in the position to judge because I made same mistakes in the past. The quality of the person in his or her ability to recognize missteps. For this reason you e-mail is pure enjoyment for me. I also glad that you visited www.scienceofmassage.com and you found it helpful. It took us three years to put it together(information wise). We analyzed hundreds and hundreds of medical sources on medical massage aspects starting from the beginning of the 20th century until present from all major countries. Using search window you may find a lot of helpful information on any subject.

Another issue I would like to address is why I am here. I have so many obligations and projects at the same time that it is difficult for me to find time to follow all posts. I decided to be part of this website for one particular reason to help practitioners with answers to questions they may have. I don't like to play games. You have question I will give you the best answer I can find which is based on science. It may be not what you are expecting for but it is what I have. Since 1986 I worked on so many patients with sometimes such bizarre conditions that it gave me incredible clinical experience. My motivation was to share this experience with you and others. You have client you are struggling with, ask me, I maybe able to send your thoughts in the right direction. BTW this is what we do in the Forum part of the scienceofmassage website.

I am glad that we are on the same page and can enjoy each other intellectual abilities for the sake of patients

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

Gary W Addis said:

In a private post to you, I have apologized, and discussed in detail my mistakes.  I was not the only one to go astray in the thread, but I was the worst offender.  Instead of leaping to anyone else's defense, I should have kept shut and allowed him to fight his own battles.  Myelosis is a medullary tumor.  But, yes, I was referring to myogelosis.  I spent considerable time on your website yesterday evening, and I learned.  For instance, I learned that some of the things labeled trigger points by one class instructor are not trigger points, neither active nor dormant.  I learned that I still have so much to learn.  The link to the videos in the second installment of your TP articles may be broken (the first video worked, but the others wouldn't load, but that may have been a problem in my machine).

Incidentally, I was not defending Kaufman's website which I too believe is long on sales pitch but devoid of details; I was defending a friend.  And I should have stayed out of it.  So again I publicly apologize. 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Gary

 

I also hope that we will stop addressing each other because it is very destructive. The sad part that you are fighting for the cause you don't have any idea what it is all about. According to you Gordon got 'secret" knowledge he didn't share with you because Kauffman holds it back. Don't you think it is strange when person fights not knowing what he fights for and it seems just for the pleasure of fight. In regard to controversy you found in my posts. Problem that you are not reading them. They addressed completely different subjects. BTW there is no such thing as 'myelosis' I believe you wanted to say myogelosis. The fact that you are not familiar with terminology doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Please, you are such destructive force here that it will be better for everyone if you start to participate in other discussions. I just ask you to give everyone break.

 

Dr. Ross Turchninov

Gary W Addis said:

Boris, this thing has been rolling downhill and shows little sign of slowing.  Well, I am attempting to apply the brakes. 

I have not discounted your expertise; in fact, I have availed myself of it many times.  Your youtube training videos are much appreciated.  Dr Ross I don't know, not even by reputation.  When you felt your expertise was being discounted even by inference, your friend Dr Ross stepped in to defend.  When I felt that my friend Gordon's reputation was being besmirched, I stepped up in defense.  That is what friends do for friends. That is what I did for you when you were attacked in another thread; that is what I have done for Gordon.

 

Regarding Kaufman, when I visited the site, frankly, I wasn't impressed.  Everything found online re: PNT is a frigging testimonial.  It's all flash, no substance.  But Gordon uses it with his client base, and insists that it works.  I live on social security while attending school, so I certainly cannot buy the "secret" from Kaufman; I cannot examine the technique for myself, even as a client.  In fact, the only massage I receive right now are tradeoffs with fellow students.  But my friend, whom I have no reason not to trust, says that Kaufman's technique is legitimate.  Therese says it works, with the caveat that she too doesn't understand how it works.  Regarding the statement that light pressure on trigger points causes myelosis.  I don't understand how pressure applied to, say, a trigger point in the rectus femoris can create a tumor in the spine.  As you yourself have remarked more than once, Boris, a therapist doesn't have to break bones in order to release trigger points.  One person's light pressure is another person's screaming pain. Are we in agreement so far?

 

Alright, perhaps I should have sat back and allowed Gordon to defend himself.  After all, as you have reminded me I am nothing but a student.  I and all other students rely on educators such as yourself.  As I read in Massage&Bodywork, a decade ago, most massage schools held their meetings in someone's garage, the only textbooks were the teacher's handwritten notebooks.  Gordon came up through that; he obtained most of his knowledge through personal study coupled with hands' on experience.  I daresay that most if not all of today's experts learned the same way.  Before there were people like you, there was...guesswork.  Trigger Point mapping guides didn't descend from Heaven; many someones had to experiment and pool their knowledge.  The body of knowledge was deveoped largely through trial and error.  A few people probably earn a good living by providing CEUs.  But people like Myers, Benjamin, Prilutsky, et alial, become teachers not to become wealthy but for the sheer enjoyment of sharing knowledge   Kaufman is holding whatever knowledge he holds very close and very private.  His choice.  I really would like to know whether his method works--I want to learn.

 

I am glad that you and Gordon are reaching an understanding; becoming more civil to one another.  I intend to learn from the both of you.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dr. Ross Turchaninov on July 15, 2011 at 3:09pm

Hi Gary

I didn't get full picture yet. So, your client is on the back, you work on the horizontal portion of trapezius but using anterior approach? What is approximate level on the neck? BTW 63 is age of wisdom.

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

W Addis said:

Dr Turchaninov, can I ask you a question I haven't been able to get answered anywhere else?

 

Working anterior to the traps but behind clavicle (with client supine), I have twice encountered a--mass is the only way I can describe it, it seems to be round, about inch in diameter, and 2-3 inches in length.  It doesn't extend to the shoulder joint nor all the way to the neck... it isn't hard or painful when pressed.  There is soft tissue, seemingly unconnected tissue to the front, back and to both sides.  Because it wasn't tender and I could not get my instructor over for advice at the time, rather than create a problem that wasn't then a problem for the client, I left it alone.  My first thought was that it might be the omohyoid--but the omohyoid does extend to the neck, doesn't it?   The scalenes don't run paralle.  I own primal pictures' excellent interactive functional anatomy, but the omohyoid muscle is the only thing I know of in the area.  I hope I have provided a recognizable description.  As I said, I have encountered this...mass in two people.

 

I did go to your website when you first offered it, but skimmed it quickly, and the real steak and potatoes are in the 2nd part of the article.  In the school clinic we have zero time to perform evaluations--we barely have time to exchange a few whispered words with our clients before we begin to work (from the moment they sign in at the office, the 1 hr clock is ticking).  I give a great "feel-good" massage, and do pretty good DT/MFR work on problem areas that are reported to me (within the time constraints).  Feel good massage is fun to receive and easy enough for the therapist to give, but I want to ease pain and restore movement-- I want the skills of a clinical massage therapist.  I am 63, and the clock is ticking. But I will try to rein in my impatience and take it one step at a time.

 

Thank you for understanding this overeager aging pup.

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Hi Gary

We all passionate about what we are doing and we all sometimes make mistakes and overreact. I am not in the position to judge because I made same mistakes in the past. The quality of the person in his or her ability to recognize missteps. For this reason you e-mail is pure enjoyment for me. I also glad that you visited www.scienceofmassage.com and you found it helpful. It took us three years to put it together(information wise). We analyzed hundreds and hundreds of medical sources on medical massage aspects starting from the beginning of the 20th century until present from all major countries. Using search window you may find a lot of helpful information on any subject.

Another issue I would like to address is why I am here. I have so many obligations and projects at the same time that it is difficult for me to find time to follow all posts. I decided to be part of this website for one particular reason to help practitioners with answers to questions they may have. I don't like to play games. You have question I will give you the best answer I can find which is based on science. It may be not what you are expecting for but it is what I have. Since 1986 I worked on so many patients with sometimes such bizarre conditions that it gave me incredible clinical experience. My motivation was to share this experience with you and others. You have client you are struggling with, ask me, I maybe able to send your thoughts in the right direction. BTW this is what we do in the Forum part of the scienceofmassage website.

I am glad that we are on the same page and can enjoy each other intellectual abilities for the sake of patients

 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov

Gary W Addis said:

In a private post to you, I have apologized, and discussed in detail my mistakes.  I was not the only one to go astray in the thread, but I was the worst offender.  Instead of leaping to anyone else's defense, I should have kept shut and allowed him to fight his own battles.  Myelosis is a medullary tumor.  But, yes, I was referring to myogelosis.  I spent considerable time on your website yesterday evening, and I learned.  For instance, I learned that some of the things labeled trigger points by one class instructor are not trigger points, neither active nor dormant.  I learned that I still have so much to learn.  The link to the videos in the second installment of your TP articles may be broken (the first video worked, but the others wouldn't load, but that may have been a problem in my machine).

Incidentally, I was not defending Kaufman's website which I too believe is long on sales pitch but devoid of details; I was defending a friend.  And I should have stayed out of it.  So again I publicly apologize. 

Dr. Ross Turchaninov said:

Gary

 

I also hope that we will stop addressing each other because it is very destructive. The sad part that you are fighting for the cause you don't have any idea what it is all about. According to you Gordon got 'secret" knowledge he didn't share with you because Kauffman holds it back. Don't you think it is strange when person fights not knowing what he fights for and it seems just for the pleasure of fight. In regard to controversy you found in my posts. Problem that you are not reading them. They addressed completely different subjects. BTW there is no such thing as 'myelosis' I believe you wanted to say myogelosis. The fact that you are not familiar with terminology doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Please, you are such destructive force here that it will be better for everyone if you start to participate in other discussions. I just ask you to give everyone break.

 

Dr. Ross Turchninov

Gary W Addis said:

Boris, this thing has been rolling downhill and shows little sign of slowing.  Well, I am attempting to apply the brakes. 

I have not discounted your expertise; in fact, I have availed myself of it many times.  Your youtube training videos are much appreciated.  Dr Ross I don't know, not even by reputation.  When you felt your expertise was being discounted even by inference, your friend Dr Ross stepped in to defend.  When I felt that my friend Gordon's reputation was being besmirched, I stepped up in defense.  That is what friends do for friends. That is what I did for you when you were attacked in another thread; that is what I have done for Gordon.

 

Regarding Kaufman, when I visited the site, frankly, I wasn't impressed.  Everything found online re: PNT is a frigging testimonial.  It's all flash, no substance.  But Gordon uses it with his client base, and insists that it works.  I live on social security while attending school, so I certainly cannot buy the "secret" from Kaufman; I cannot examine the technique for myself, even as a client.  In fact, the only massage I receive right now are tradeoffs with fellow students.  But my friend, whom I have no reason not to trust, says that Kaufman's technique is legitimate.  Therese says it works, with the caveat that she too doesn't understand how it works.  Regarding the statement that light pressure on trigger points causes myelosis.  I don't understand how pressure applied to, say, a trigger point in the rectus femoris can create a tumor in the spine.  As you yourself have remarked more than once, Boris, a therapist doesn't have to break bones in order to release trigger points.  One person's light pressure is another person's screaming pain. Are we in agreement so far?

 

Alright, perhaps I should have sat back and allowed Gordon to defend himself.  After all, as you have reminded me I am nothing but a student.  I and all other students rely on educators such as yourself.  As I read in Massage&Bodywork, a decade ago, most massage schools held their meetings in someone's garage, the only textbooks were the teacher's handwritten notebooks.  Gordon came up through that; he obtained most of his knowledge through personal study coupled with hands' on experience.  I daresay that most if not all of today's experts learned the same way.  Before there were people like you, there was...guesswork.  Trigger Point mapping guides didn't descend from Heaven; many someones had to experiment and pool their knowledge.  The body of knowledge was deveoped largely through trial and error.  A few people probably earn a good living by providing CEUs.  But people like Myers, Benjamin, Prilutsky, et alial, become teachers not to become wealthy but for the sheer enjoyment of sharing knowledge   Kaufman is holding whatever knowledge he holds very close and very private.  His choice.  I really would like to know whether his method works--I want to learn.

 

I am glad that you and Gordon are reaching an understanding; becoming more civil to one another.  I intend to learn from the both of you.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 15, 2011 at 6:25pm

Dr. Ross, the client is supine, I am working anterior to the traps...in the soft tissue between the lateral sweep of the upper traps and the clavicle. My fingers are cupping the traps, my thumbs are "pinching" deep anterior to the traps but not applying much pressure, just sort of exploring the tissue when I feel the mass, and roll it between thumb and fingers, feeling the outline of the mass.  No pain reported, too large to be any TP I've ever imagined, but not taut like a HT band... more solid-feeling than other tissue in the "hollow" but not tense.  The clients in both cases are female with normal non-exercising female's muscle tone, in fact the traps lacked the firmness of most women I've worked on, one was obese in her fifties, the other young and only slightly overweight. 

The younger is a fellow student who complains that she is pain insensitive due to heavy analgesic drug usage some time before starting school; she claims that her neck locks up if DT applied to the entire region--so I was very gentle, more effleurage than petrissage pressure, certainly not DT pressure. (This is NMT class, BTW.) 

The older lady receives massage at the student clinic every couple of weeks, and always complains of the same symptoms.  She complained of tight neck and traps but on the opposite side.  I released one TP in levatur scapula, two in the L traps, and exploring deep, found two very tender spots in the subscapularis, one in posterior scalene.  I found only HT in the other side of her body.  I spent a considerable portion of our time together working the neck and upper back.  She wrote a glowing report and rated me a 5 out of 5 (no one else had discovered the TPs in the subscapularis). 

 

One thing I have noticed in the school clinic, if the client is a repeat, the student therapists have a tendency to rely on the prior SOAP notes in the folder when filling in the Objective portion-- if the last three massages found X number of TPs, etc, then the therapist may feel intimidated into copying, listing stuff that he/she did not find. (i.e., "I must be doing something wrong if I didn't feel everything that Bill felt last week", thaat sort of thing.)   Usually it is one body on, one body off, no time to fill in the chart while the body is fresh in the mind--but I do take a moment to scribble a note to myself before I even change the sheets.  I am glad to report that my NMT instructor grills us closely about our SOAPS, trying to determine whether what is reported is what we actually found and released.    Other instructors seem less diligent.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on July 16, 2011 at 2:15am

Hi Gary I know you are asking Dr Ross so hope you don't mind me jumping in.

Could it be thoracic outlet syndrome? When the head of the first rib has been in chronic elevation the surrounding muscles and neurovascular structures can sometimes palpate as you describe but are normally (but not always) painfull.

 

I know you are doing a NMT class, and there is pressure on you to work site specific (neck upper back), so maybe outside class use whatever techniques you have to release the hypertonic/fibrotic tissue/fascia in the arms and hands (reflexes).

Releaseing the arms/hands before working neck will get you even better results that last longer and greatly reduce the risk of over working the neck as Therese reported in another thread.   

Hope this helps

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 16, 2011 at 9:19am

Hi Stephen.

I'm positive that Dr. Ross will reply, but in this case and because there is no pain and other symptoms involved, we have to exclude  thoracic outlet syndrome.

Best wishes.

Boris

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Gary I know you are asking Dr Ross so hope you don't mind me jumping in.

Could it be thoracic outlet syndrome? When the head of the first rib has been in chronic elevation the surrounding muscles and neurovascular structures can sometimes palpate as you describe but are normally (but not always) painfull.

 

I know you are doing a NMT class, and there is pressure on you to work site specific (neck upper back), so maybe outside class use whatever techniques you have to release the hypertonic/fibrotic tissue/fascia in the arms and hands (reflexes).

Releaseing the arms/hands before working neck will get you even better results that last longer and greatly reduce the risk of over working the neck as Therese reported in another thread.   

Hope this helps

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on July 16, 2011 at 11:44am

In the area with the mass, there is no pain, very little tonus.  Have you ever made bread? As close an analogy as I can come up with is, the texture of the surrounding tissue is like first roll-out dough; of the mass, more like 2nd or 3rd roll out-- still pliable, but denser than the surrounding tissue.  Now, the other side of both women was normal. 

However, the older client complains of chronic tightness and limited ROM on the other side.  She receives a full body every couple of weeks, and according to her SOAPs, she always has the same complaint. 

 

The younger client--a fellow student-- was a mystery to me, as the class was meeting for the first time, working neck/upper back.  This is a night class, and due to a new job, she transferred out to a day NMT class. 

I'll probably have the opportunity to work on the older lady again, as she was pleased with my work.  For whatever it's worth, I found a TP in her subscapularis on the tight side that no one else had ever found. 

Neither woman had very good muscle tone.  Incidentally, this was my first contact with that student, but she had the reputation around the school as one who would hurt you with her pressure, and when her receiving student complains, her reply was 'Stop being such a baby.'  But when receiving herself, her giver has to be extra gentle. 

 

Now, I may be giving the impression that this difference in tonus I'm reporting is quite noticeable.  In both, I was giving particular attention to that area.  While she was prone, I had found several TPS in the opposite side of the older lady, but nothing on the "mass" side; after repositioning to supine, I checked the traps and neck area of both sides again, and this is when I found the "mass." 

The younger woman was a mystery to me, my only contact in a class setting while we were slow-sweeping from the lamina groove just below the occiput and across the traps--at least, everyone else was.  But because of her complaint that she wouldn't be able to provide pain feedback and she reports being afraid of pain, I was restricted to very light application of thumb during the neck/trapezius sweep.  When I felt the mass (I am uncomfortable using the term "mass" but don't know a more accurate term), I palpated very lightly, feeling its outline.  Since I wasn't able to use the proper sweep technique, and he trusted me not to hurt the young woman, the instructor concentrated on my classmates, who were employing considerable pressure on their receivers.  I never got the opportunity to call him over and get his input about what I was feeling. 

 

Maybe I am making a mountain out of nothing-- this "mass" would be missed during a normal full body 1 hr massage.  I felt it because I was being extra diligent.  The younger woman?  Because I was working under such restrictions on my pressure, while the others were sweeping and releasing adh and TPs across the traps, I held the "mass" I felt, and concentrated on the feeling.  After a couple of minutes I did feel a slight softening of the tissue, but it never completely melted into surrounding tissue. 

 

Have I confused everyone yet?  If I ever feel something like that again, in client or in classroom, I will definitely call my instructor over.

Stephen, your input is always valued.

Stephen Jeffrey said:

Hi Gary I know you are asking Dr Ross so hope you don't mind me jumping in.

Could it be thoracic outlet syndrome? When the head of the first rib has been in chronic elevation the surrounding muscles and neurovascular structures can sometimes palpate as you describe but are normally (but not always) painfull.

 

I know you are doing a NMT class, and there is pressure on you to work site specific (neck upper back), so maybe outside class use whatever techniques you have to release the hypertonic/fibrotic tissue/fascia in the arms and hands (reflexes).

Releaseing the arms/hands before working neck will get you even better results that last longer and greatly reduce the risk of over working the neck as Therese reported in another thread.   

Hope this helps

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on July 16, 2011 at 1:19pm

Hi Gary.

I know that Dr. Ross as we speaking crazy busy finishing Massage Science Journal issue, and will reply additionally to what I have said or will support my statement. Because  and maybe you will provide therapy before Dr. Ross will reply I'm offering following information.

Any new formations/mass  that one possibly can palpate is contraindicated for massage. And no matter what is it. one just cannot touch it. Because you are reporting post-massage mass decrease, indicating that most likely it was cystic formation that also prohibit to massage. This rules is writing on the stone for all of us with no exemptions. I mean for students or experience therapists.

Best wishes.

Boris

Gary W Addis said:

Dr. Ross, the client is supine, I am working anterior to the traps...in the soft tissue between the lateral sweep of the upper traps and the clavicle. My fingers are cupping the traps, my thumbs are "pinching" deep anterior to the traps but not applying much pressure, just sort of exploring the tissue when I feel the mass, and roll it between thumb and fingers, feeling the outline of the mass.  No pain reported, too large to be any TP I've ever imagined, but not taut like a HT band... more solid-feeling than other tissue in the "hollow" but not tense.  The clients in both cases are female with normal non-exercising female's muscle tone, in fact the traps lacked the firmness of most women I've worked on, one was obese in her fifties, the other young and only slightly overweight. 

The younger is a fellow student who complains that she is pain insensitive due to heavy analgesic drug usage some time before starting school; she claims that her neck locks up if DT applied to the entire region--so I was very gentle, more effleurage than petrissage pressure, certainly not DT pressure. (This is NMT class, BTW.) 

The older lady receives massage at the student clinic every couple of weeks, and always complains of the same symptoms.  She complained of tight neck and traps but on the opposite side.  I released one TP in levatur scapula, two in the L traps, and exploring deep, found two very tender spots in the subscapularis, one in posterior scalene.  I found only HT in the other side of her body.  I spent a considerable portion of our time together working the neck and upper back.  She wrote a glowing report and rated me a 5 out of 5 (no one else had discovered the TPs in the subscapularis). 

 

One thing I have noticed in the school clinic, if the client is a repeat, the student therapists have a tendency to rely on the prior SOAP notes in the folder when filling in the Objective portion-- if the last three massages found X number of TPs, etc, then the therapist may feel intimidated into copying, listing stuff that he/she did not find. (i.e., "I must be doing something wrong if I didn't feel everything that Bill felt last week", thaat sort of thing.)   Usually it is one body on, one body off, no time to fill in the chart while the body is fresh in the mind--but I do take a moment to scribble a note to myself before I even change the sheets.  I am glad to report that my NMT instructor grills us closely about our SOAPS, trying to determine whether what is reported is what we actually found and released.    Other instructors seem less diligent.

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