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What are your professional pet peeves?
We need some input for our Round the Table column in the next issue of Massage & Bodywork magazine. Reply with your answers and you just might see it printed in the next issue!
The question this time is:
As a massage therapist, what are some of your professional pet peeves?
Views: 6007
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
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http://www.massagetoday.com/mpacms/mt/article.php?t=39&id=14320
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://saveyourself.ca/tutorials/trigger-points.php Worth reading . Unless you know everything already.
http://www.orthomassage.net/instructors
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://www.massagetoday.com/mpacms/mt/search.php?q=trigger+points&a...
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://kenthealth.com/
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary.Your comment "playing games" was a discussion. I mean you wrote list of educators, who according to you teaching trigger point as individual procedure,and/or teaching definition of trigger point and morphology of trigger points, as well way of treatment differently than I do.
Therefore I said and will repeat, because of this confusing situation educators have to come together, and to discuss it in order to clarify. We owe it to community. With this 1000s alternative names we are divided and that doesn't serve as well.BTW. Most of spas, massage centers, started suffering losses, because people cannot afford just feels good, and this massage centers and spas can start receiving referrals from Drs. but for this matter we have to be more united, and we have to talk one language, maybe two or three but not 1000s, and all have to be massage language.
this is what you described:” I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. “
This ,Has nothing to do with trigger points. Trigger points, scientifically defines as an pinpoint localization of pain. Morphology was established by utilizing histological study/biopsy.
What possible is that I and you using “trigger points” and differently understanding what is it.
BTW. Chinese practitioners never used and never using “trigger points” terminology, but accupoints.
You saying :Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
I never said that rational isolytic contraction has something to do with brain lesions, but clasp knife reflex is a results of it.
What you refusing to understand that when somebody in pain to utilize isolytic contraction is just dangerous, and can lead to tears. This all. It is unjustified risk methodology.
Travell and Simons book, containing great presentation, of anatomy , physiology and pathology, never was writing for massage therapists, but for doctors, as an a guide for injections.
They never advocated ischemic compression, therefore my proposal lets not discuss it.
Please check your inbox, and you will find my yesterday e- mail to you, where i requested not to post stuff that you not really competent, otherwise and because other people reading I will have to reply. In the past, I also asked Gordon privately the same and even more.
Just to make constructive our discussion please read trigger points scientific review.
http://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/1110/medical.aspx
Best wishes.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:n effect what you are saying, Boris, is that you are specially qualified to pass judgment on others, but no one can judge you. Astonishing.
You attempt to distract an argument with trivialities, inserting a few sentences here and there that have nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. Or is it your asinine assertion that my comment "playing games" is the subject of this debate?
Boris, I have not even remotely claimed to be an educator. I merely reiterate the fact that your rant that your methods of treating trigger points is the ONE correct method is proven wrong every day by thousands of licensed therapists. The techniques I listed, Boris, are in fact releasing trigger points as I speak.
Please repeat for me my description of trigger points, Boris, because I don't remember posting any. Trigger point therapy is not anything new--it is in fact older than perhaps you know--Chinese Tuina practitioners were releasing trigger points about 6000 years before Dr Travell was born (a trigger point by any other name is still a trigger point). Travell and Simon taught spray and stretch or inject and stretch. When their textbooks were written, those were the only accepted means of trigger point therapy. So evidently, "scientific fact" as you referred to it has evolved, eh? I was taught 50 years ago in grade school that a scientist never refers to anything as an absolute-- were my science teachers wrong? The scientific knowledge base expands; theories/methodologies evolve as new "facts" are discovered and added to the database.
I agree with your statement that trigger point therapy isn't everything--the pain isn't always caused by a trigger point. Serious injuries to bone, ligaments, vertebrae or muscles may be the cause--it can even be referred to the muscles from an internal organ.
Boris, you clearly are judging without bothering to investigate for yourself. What you (and Gordon) referred to as clasp knife reflex and I and educator Asher refer to as Isolytic Contraction Technique is not, as you describe resulting from "a brain lesion". A muscle movement consists of two parts: concentric and eccentric. Eccentric contractions are employed successfully by weight trainers the world over. I myself add a set of "negative reps"-- eccentric contractions-- every other workout as a means of shocking the muscle into extraordinary growth. My 18" bodybuilder-arms and powerlifter strength at 63 years of age are hardly the product of a brain lesion, Boris.
An explanation for those who might not know: A barbell curl, for instance. After a trainer lifts the weight concentrically as many times as he can, a friend helps him lift it once more; on the downward stroke, the friend increases the resistance felt by the trainer by pulling downward on the barbell...the trainer resists and resists...and eventually the bicep surrenders and the weight pulls the arm into a straight arm position. Slightly different usage of eccentric/concentric contractions in the TP technique--the client is employing only 10-25% of his/her total strength, so it is easily overcome.
But to my astonishment you've also disputed the efficacy of Reciprocal Inhibition Technique. Commonsense alone ought to convince you to try it. It is based on the simple and factual proposition that for a muscle to contract, its opposing muscle must relax. A trigger point is a complete contraction of one or more strands of muscle: to help the hypertense tissue to relax, you apply pressure to its opposition. An example: rhomboid has a TP. Compress it as usual, then with the other hand, manipulate its antagonist (serratus anterior), bringing it into contraction. The trigger point will relax. The other techniques I mentioned--that Gordon has in the past mentioned-- all work on the same principle. Actually, Travell and Simon's spray-and-stetch and inject-and-stretch techniques also take advantage of the same kinesiological fact.
Boris, your explanations of why this-or-that is dangerous to my client without having touched my client is ethically wrong. I'm an easy target: I am in fact still a student. But you carefully avoid criticizing your educator peers, unless they are dead. FYI, an instructor with more than 20 years experience was in the room when I worked on this lady. I called the client this afternoon asking her to come in for a follow-up, and she is still pain free.
Will you be respectful of others, and take this argument to our private inboxes and off the forum? Or, as I believe you will do, you can post a long diatribe in response to this posting, lecturing me and aggrandizing yourself. But I will not see it. I have chosen not to burden others with our argument. How about it? Can your ego stand to conduct this debate in private?
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary .you absolutely have rights to participate in discussion, you just don't have grounds for participations in capacity you are doing it.it just wrong to do what you are doing. This all.
Good evidence that meantime you are not ready, is your reply.You said so much,but nothing related to my particular reply to you, in regards of playing games, and my belief that educators have to discuss and clarify. Not you, but educators. Your interpretations is wrong and dangerous and misleading. Educational sides, is to ask questions, to share experiences and knowledge. You don't have enough knowledge and experiences to share knowledge or experience . This is the fact.
Your descriptions of trigger points is 100% wrong by all means. Trigger points, and trigger point therapy, isn't something new, but well established scientific facts. Besides being very important component of orthopedic massage, it will be not enough for adequate treatment to sustain results.
In regards of Gordon claims treating trigger points by Triggering clasp knife reflex. Will repeat again, this is absolute nonprofessional nonsense, and doesn't matter if for $300 Dr. Kauffman taught him so. When he started promoting this publicly, I didn't want others to repeat this nonsense, and to try to learn whatever what. And this is the only reason why I publicly did disagree and explained. It's nothing personal. If I would say this is nonsense, was no explanation why this is nonsense then I would be wrong, but then and now I am explaining.
Clasp knife reflex is a results of very difficult neurological disease, brain lesion, and with healthy people thank God,you cannot triggering it. And thank God most of us do not suffer from this brain lesions, and having episodes of Clasp knife reflex. In a little bit, I will reply with my comments, on your treatment of tourist including explanation why this is dangers, what you are doing.
Regards.
Boris
Gary W Addis said:Boris, there are many disparate techniques for treating trigger points. Your methodology is not the only effective means of achieving trigger point release. However, you have stated that your method is the only safe means of doing so. You are wrong, as each of the respected educators I have mentioned demonstrate on their clients on a daily basis.
As for my "chill out" comment, I said precisely what I meant. Everyone involved in this and a dozen other threads have been discussing, and sometimes mildly disagreeing with one another about this or that, without once becoming disagreeable ourselves. (I note for the record that you weren't involved in any of those recent peaceful threads.)
You entered this thread by immediately jumping on one of the posters (Gordon)--not specifically about any comment he made in this thread but about comments made in threads of long ago. Gordon can speak for himself, but again for the record I have never read a comment made by Gordon wherein he disrespects the methods used by any specific massage therapist--you have, however.
Yes, certainly, he has often bemoaned the fact that a majority of massage therapists have not been properly trained in NMT. Two surveys I have read recently avow that only 41%--less than half-- of licensed massage therapists offer trigger point therapy in their practices. So, the statistics are in agreement with Gordon. And, you, too, Boris, have decried the fact that so many LMTs have not been taught the proper techniques.
Your argument with others (including but not limited to Gordon) stems from your assertion that your method is the only viable method...that all other methods are dangerous to the client. The proper touch has to be developed by working on real trigger points. But it ain't rocket science, Boris. As Clair Davies taught in his highly respected textbook "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook", anyone can learn to effectively treat his very own trigger points. Absolutely without question, a professional can do a better job of it. But in about ten minutes I taught my 14 year old grandson to release a bothersome TP in my back that I could not reach.
Off the thread, but not off-topic:
This week I treated a tourist visiting the Gulf coast from Australia; she has had by her estimate a hundred or so professional massages, in Australia, during other visits to the US, during vacations to Europe. Lots of massage & bodywork--Trager, Bowenwork, Feldenkrais, Craniosacral, Shiatsu, Lomi-lomi. Swedish--but not one session with anyone who could release a trigger point.
During our hour and 50 minute session, I released 19 trigger points. I treated them with an assortment of techniques, including one or more of the following: reciprocal inhibition; isometric contraction; isotonic compression; contract and relax; and the one you have put down vociferously on a number of occasions, isolytic contraction. All of the above involve ischemic compression.
Since in the past you have singled this one out, I'll explain how Isolytic Contraction is done. It involves (1) finding the TP (2) asking the client to contract the muscle at about 25% while the therapist resists (3) therapist pushes the muscle into eccentric contraction (4) therapist holds until the TP releases. Gordon mentioned the above technique in a post awhile back, worded differently but otherwise essentially the same thing. You condemned the technique as counter-productive, and especially dangerous.
However, I assure you that all of the above NMT techniques work-- I invite you to try them before you judge them. You also loudly disagreed with Clair Davies' preferred treatment: that of "stroking compression." Davies' technique works more slowly, but it too absolutely, definitely does work, as can be attested to by the many many therapists who employ it, including respected educator/therapist/Joseph Muscolino, DC.
Never having felt the quality of my touch, never having graded any of my academic work, I don't believe that you are qualified to sit in judgment of my skill level. I do not deny that I am still a student, and have much to learn--but I will continue to learn for the remainder of my life. Will you? Or did you stop learning when you left the employ of your home country 25+ years ago? (BTW, your particular technique was once considered out on the cutting edge of research.)
I absolutely do have the right to participate in the forum. And I will continue to do so. You, sir, not Gordon, have disrespected other massage therapists in this and other threads with what you must perceive as pronouncements from the mountain. If anyone needs to chill, it is you.
But, never mind. I won't respond to you again in this or any other thread.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary. No games never played, because don't know how to play it, as well having a lot of love to occupation and sincerely care about our industry. We talked about trigger points therapy only ,not being adequate treatment. You brought the list of educators, who according to you, teaching different approaches to trigger point therapy. There is no silver bullet in our occupation, but morphology of trigger points as well trigger points therapy is known scientific fact, it is important procedure and cannot be 1000s different opinions.
I know how much 1000s different alternative names to massage therapy, is confusing, therefore believe even now, that as an educators, we have to be engaged in professional discussion and to clarify it.
Industry is divided and this kind of discussions would unified. Again there is no silver bullet in our occupation, but when we using name of trigger point therapy, it is impossible to use 1000s different names.
PS. Once you already use this :” So, chill, dude, chill” and then did apologize and promised to restrain yourself. You remember, challenging Dr.Ross you have used this kind of language????? Please chill. You still student, or maybe already graduate.,. One have to be competent /knowledgeable /cool to participate in professional discussion, and to be hot, when vigorously defending against wrong, such as instead of encourage others one discouraging, we should confront wrongdoing, in professional way, just say what is wrong.
when one proposing other professional stuff, and you professionally disagree and can stand your ground, you must do it. Meantime you do not have grounds, it's only beginning for you .you have to chill.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, I am not playing your games any more. I do believe those educators have internet access, may even monitor the forum. Issue your own invitation, dude.
I will, however, attempt once more to calm you down. No one is disagreeing with you re: myofascial trigger points. So, chill, dude, chill.
Boris Prilutsky said:Gary,to make discussion useful and not less important,to make it professional, please invite all educator names you have mentioned, for an a discussion, on subjects :” role of massage therapy in cases of back and limb disorders. Or role of massage therapy in cases of stress management, postevent sports rehab .massage. I believe as an educators we owe it to community.
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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on
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Boris remarked: "Travell and Simons book, containing great presentation, of anatomy , physiology and pathology, never was writing for massage therapists, but for doctors, as an a guide for injections."
Boris, the only counter necessary to the above comment is contained in Clair Davies textbook, The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook: Your Self-Treatment Guide for Pain Relief. Foreword to this book was written by Dr. David G. Simon, co-author of the Travell and Simon textbooks--which you claim were never intended to be read by anyone except MDs. I promised myself that I would ignore your misinformation campaign as well as your less important personal insults hurled at me. But, sorry: That statement is simply too ludicrous to be allowed to stand unchallenged.
Both Travell and Simon applauded the fact that massage therapists took their research and expanded on it, in fact made it more beneficial, not only to MDs, but to massage therapists and physical therapists and chiropractors and osteopaths--and to "everyman". You are an elitist, sir. These two great medical doctors and researchers were not: they wanted their research to benefit Mankind.
The above mentioned Davies' textbook is available at http://www.amazon.com I suggest that you spend a few bucks and begin to educate yourself before you lecture anyone else. How can you call yourself an educator if you don't avail yourself of research?
I promise, Boris, if you never address another comment to me, I will completely ignore you from now into the foreseeable future.
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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Gary. I tried to explain to you privately, as well by posting. You shouldn't comment, on stuff you are absolutely not competent. In entire work by Travell and Simons:” myofascial pain and dysfunction the trigger point manual” one time and with no emphasizing, they mentioned ischemic compression by hands. Would you read it you would know that this text not really for massage therapists’ practical application. And this fact cannot be change even if you calling this my statement “ludicrous”.
Even this ridiculous statement of yours:” Both Travell and Simon applauded the fact that massage therapists took their research and expanded on it, in fact made it more beneficial” will not change the fact. BTW.Did you attended a ceremony when they applauded??????? are you realize that doctor Travell died long ago.
honestly I'm sorry that all end up in this way, but not regret, because I am hoping that other readers will get some of it.
BTW. Clair Davies, made it clear that there is no such a thing as a “muscle knots”. You always repeated after Gordon “muscle knots” and no matter how many times I recommended to you not to use this expression. It's simple wrong for professionals to use this terminology.
BTW. If you would read scientific review I proposed link for you, you wouldn't post all this nonsense. Also you would remember, that at this particular discussion we talked about if this is enough for sustained results to provide trigger point therapy only. One thing I cannot understand, why you so anxious and resistant to my advice, to learn instead of trying share your knowledge and experience, that simple speaking you don't have meantime???
Honestly by all means I had good intentions.
Best wishes.
Boris
PS. You really shouldn't reply but only if you have any question.
Gary W Addis said:Boris remarked: "Travell and Simons book, containing great presentation, of anatomy , physiology and pathology, never was writing for massage therapists, but for doctors, as an a guide for injections."
Boris, the only counter necessary to the above comment is contained in Clair Davies textbook, The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook: Your Self-Treatment Guide for Pain Relief. Foreword to this book was written by Dr. David G. Simon, co-author of the Travell and Simon textbooks--which you claim were never intended to be read by anyone except MDs. I promised myself that I would ignore your misinformation campaign as well as your less important personal insults hurled at me. But, sorry: That statement is simply too ludicrous to be allowed to stand unchallenged.
Both Travell and Simon applauded the fact that massage therapists took their research and expanded on it, in fact made it more beneficial, not only to MDs, but to massage therapists and physical therapists and chiropractors and osteopaths--and to "everyman". You are an elitist, sir. These two great medical doctors and researchers were not: they wanted their research to benefit Mankind.
The above mentioned Davies' textbook is available at http://www.amazon.com I suggest that you spend a few bucks and begin to educate yourself before you lecture anyone else. How can you call yourself an educator if you don't avail yourself of research?
I promise, Boris, if you never address another comment to me, I will completely ignore you from now into the foreseeable future.
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Permalink Reply by Peter Lelean on
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Goodness me , what a sad spectacle. Let's abandon the pompous, elitist and grammatically challenged diatribes . .
About trigger points . . . I use an activator to good effect (instant) often in conjunction with the techniques mentioned by Gary and Gordon. I have a little experience with fascia, and fascial lesions will always be associated with trigger points to some extent. Guys . .nobody gets it right 100% all the time, not even S&T (leg length), but they had the grace and attitude which serves as an example to the rest of us. When I want some moderately perverse amusement, I'll consider visiting this forum again:)
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Boris, your arrogance is astonishing. I have tried, really tried to be polite and respectful to you. It's the opinion of many, however, that you are undeserving of such deference. You are rude, and disrespectful of everyone who stands up to your godlike pronouncements.
I would not hesitate to compare my skills--even at this stage of my career--with what you display in your many youtube videos, which would be better received with less rambling talk and more action.
Really, I think you need a remedial course on reading comprehension of the English language.
YES, Boris, both Travell and Simon applauded the fact that others have taken their research and expanded on it. Must I explain to you the usage of "applauded" in the above sentence? I believe everyone else reading this thread understood my meaning: that the authors of the seminal work of TP therapy approved publicly and in their writings the fact that others were making positive use of their difficult research. During their lifetimes, Boris--I did not even in your wildest imaginings imply that they had written to me from the grave. Do you comprehend the meaning now????
I note with a smile on my face that you ignored the fact reiterated in my last response to you that Dr Simon wrote the foreword for Davie's book. With about ten minutes to spare I can dig up other instances in which Travell and Simon APPLAUDED the fact that massage therapist and other healthcare professionals were studying and applying their research.
BTW, Boris, I will quote directly from Davies' book: "Travell and Simons, in an extensive review of the medical literature, found that the KNOTLIKE characteristics of trigger points have been written about for over 150 years." (Page 15., Boris, 3rd paragraph)
Boris, you cannot find one instance in the forum when I spoke about knots-- I call them usually TPs, which is easier to type. I don't have a problem with Gordon or anyone else using it, because it is in fact accurate descriptive of many TPs. Some are in fact rope like strands that stand out from other tissue due to a KNOT in the strand causing the hypertonicity. Boris, you a speaker of at least two languages should understand better than most that they're only words. I assure you that I am quite skilled in the recognition of and elimination of TPs, trigger points, knots, tsubo, marma or whatever name YOU wish to call them.
It is not a competition, Boris--I don't need to be better than you are. I just need to be adequate, and my skillset is certainly more than adequate.
BTW, Boris, if I thought there was a gnat's chance in the mouth of a salamander that you would spend ten minutes perusing the material, I would provide YOU with about a 100 links to research you really should read.
In summation, Boris, even at this stage in my career, I am educated enough to be able to compare substance with fluff. Benjamin, Myers, Barnes, Lowe, Allen, LePelley, Riggs, Massagenerd --hundreds of author/educators--expand the knowledge of massage therapists both new and experienced: they are substance.
I could have passed the certification exam months ago. I maintain a GPA of 4.0-- 97.7% actually. My palpatory skills are rated superb both by my clients and my instructors. Although you have decades of massage therapy experience, I have more than 3 decades experience both as a personal trainer and as an athlete myself. While you were getting fat in Russia, I was spending hours every day in a gym, discovering the human neuromuscular system from the inside out, as only an athlete can. No one needed to tell me the difference between a strain and a sprain, and how best to treat them--because I have experienced the injuries and I have helped athletes recover from their injuries. So don't sneer at me, Boris. You are not my superior in any way.
You know lots of things I do not. However, apparently I know things about the human body that you do not. I will fill in the gaps in my knowledge. With your arrogant attitude, it is unlikely that you will know one thing more ten years from now than you knew ten years in the past.
BTW, Boris, though I invited you to take our discussion private and stop bothering forum readers, and you stated here in the forum that you had written me private message, for the record I deny that you have. Don't bother. The purpose of an argument is to either educate or express angst. As a wise someone has said, you cannot educate the willfully ignorant. And with you I am not angry, merely disgusted.
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my goodness Gary.
I'm not surprise reading these, angry not respectful reply. In the same way you have addressed Dr.Ross who is MD PhD.
I mean combination of personal attack and "professional disagreement". It is obvious you didn't took my advice.it was honest and sincere advice, quietly to learn and not to try share something that you do not have,
only because of lack of experience,capability to differential professional scientific literature, with material writing for general public, you have wrote:"I note with a smile on my face that you ignored the fact reiterated in my last response to you that Dr Simon wrote the foreword for Davie's book. With about ten minutes to spare I can dig up other instances in which Travell and Simon APPLAUDED the fact that massage therapist and other healthcare professionals were studying and applying their research. "
BTW.you didn't explained in which way they APPLAUDED.I mean maybe a statement welcoming massage therapists to study from book? Or via writing foreword ?
"Dr Simon wrote the foreword for Davie's book" so what? good for him.
Does it mean, the trigger point therapy only, leading to sustained results. Does it deny the fact, that myofascial dysfunction,resulting trigger point developments. I mean in cases ofpainful myofascial dysfunctions,,trigger points not always presenting. Mechanical pain will be and with time most likely if not to break the vicious cycle, trigger point will be developed. Therefore to address trigger points only,is not enough for sustained results because they are results of..on the other hand, if we will address painful conditions of higher resting muscles' tone that producing pain as well will address tensions within fascia,we not only will eliminate pain and will restore functional capabilities, but also will prevent developments of trigger points.
Thank you for paying attention that I am fat. it is not good and I'll have to be more disciplined to lose it.
The matter of fact, I became fat,in America not in Russia. God bless America.a lot of good food.
Two days ago I really wrote very warm message to you, using this site communication.surprised that you didn't got it.
No matter ,in case if you will get it,even now, I mean all what I wrote to you.
I hope you are not hopeless,and will be able to cool down, to read again my posts to you.they all are respectful and containing real advice.
Best wishes.
Boris
PS. On level of English I speak and write and plus minus can communicate using six languages.there is room for improvement in English. Can you communicate in Russian?LOL just a joke.but to be serious,if only looking fat,and not speaking perfect English is a problem with my DVDs, then I am very happy.
Gary W Addis said:Boris, your arrogance is astonishing. I have tried, really tried to be polite and respectful to you. It's the opinion of many, however, that you are undeserving of such deference. You are rude, and disrespectful of everyone who stands up to your godlike pronouncements.
I would not hesitate to compare my skills--even at this stage of my career--with what you display in your many youtube videos, which would be better received with less rambling talk and more action.
Really, I think you need a remedial course on reading comprehension of the English language.
YES, Boris, both Travell and Simon applauded the fact that others have taken their research and expanded on it. Must I explain to you the usage of "applauded" in the above sentence? I believe everyone else reading this thread understood my meaning: that the authors of the seminal work of TP therapy approved publicly and in their writings the fact that others were making positive use of their difficult research. During their lifetimes, Boris--I did not even in your wildest imaginings imply that they had written to me from the grave. Do you comprehend the meaning now????
I note with a smile on my face that you ignored the fact reiterated in my last response to you that Dr Simon wrote the foreword for Davie's book. With about ten minutes to spare I can dig up other instances in which Travell and Simon APPLAUDED the fact that massage therapist and other healthcare professionals were studying and applying their research.
BTW, Boris, I will quote directly from Davies' book: "Travell and Simons, in an extensive review of the medical literature, found that the KNOTLIKE characteristics of trigger points have been written about for over 150 years." (Page 15., Boris, 3rd paragraph)
Boris, you cannot find one instance in the forum when I spoke about knots-- I call them usually TPs, which is easier to type. I don't have a problem with Gordon or anyone else using it, because it is in fact accurate descriptive of many TPs. Some are in fact rope like strands that stand out from other tissue due to a KNOT in the strand causing the hypertonicity. Boris, you a speaker of at least two languages should understand better than most that they're only words. I assure you that I am quite skilled in the recognition of and elimination of TPs, trigger points, knots, tsubo, marma or whatever name YOU wish to call them.
It is not a competition, Boris--I don't need to be better than you are. I just need to be adequate, and my skillset is certainly more than adequate.
BTW, Boris, if I thought there was a gnat's chance in the mouth of a salamander that you would spend ten minutes perusing the material, I would provide YOU with about a 100 links to research you really should read.
In summation, Boris, even at this stage in my career, I am educated enough to be able to compare substance with fluff. Benjamin, Myers, Barnes, Lowe, Allen, LePelley, Riggs, Massagenerd --hundreds of author/educators--expand the knowledge of massage therapists both new and experienced: they are substance.
I could have passed the certification exam months ago. I maintain a GPA of 4.0-- 97.7% actually. My palpatory skills are rated superb both by my clients and my instructors. Although you have decades of massage therapy experience, I have more than 3 decades experience both as a personal trainer and as an athlete myself. While you were getting fat in Russia, I was spending hours every day in a gym, discovering the human neuromuscular system from the inside out, as only an athlete can. No one needed to tell me the difference between a strain and a sprain, and how best to treat them--because I have experienced the injuries and I have helped athletes recover from their injuries. So don't sneer at me, Boris. You are not my superior in any way.
You know lots of things I do not. However, apparently I know things about the human body that you do not. I will fill in the gaps in my knowledge. With your arrogant attitude, it is unlikely that you will know one thing more ten years from now than you knew ten years in the past.
BTW, Boris, though I invited you to take our discussion private and stop bothering forum readers, and you stated here in the forum that you had written me private message, for the record I deny that you have. Don't bother. The purpose of an argument is to either educate or express angst. As a wise someone has said, you cannot educate the willfully ignorant. And with you I am not angry, merely disgusted.
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Hi Peter.
I actually taking very seriously every discussion I'm involved in. Really didn't like constant Gordon’s dysencouraging statements, to young professionals, including describing orthopedic disorders as an not really complicated pathologies, and so simple to treat that for him enough to touch few times and all is over, and other “will fall off that platform”. I really care and don't want my colleagues(maybe some of them) to be dysencouraged, and to have wrong impressions on orthopedic massage. There is a lot of misunderstandings in regards of trigger points’definitions and treatments, therefore I proposed discussions, and even offered full scientific review on the subject.
I mean all one will read within scientific review can be questioned, and discussed. For some reason Gary decided that I am playing games. Honestly I don't know , how much people reading this posts, and how many of members could be influenced , therefore decided to confront it. Maybe I shouldn't .There is no silver bullet in our occupation but when we providing treatment for orthopedic disorders, treatment should be adequate, which means in most cases, not in all, but in most cases, symptoms shouldn't come back fast, or in some at all. You absolutely right, no one can be 100% right, but if clients will continue to talk about massage therapy being temporary relief, and will go back to painkillers, steroids injections etc. all our industry in jeopardy. Have to repeat myself, people do not have money anymore for feels good, and not effective treatment. Orthopedic massage is a simple procedure, and we can change condition pretty fast but ,there is no fast fix like one touch and all is over . Everyone have to know it before coming to table and treat. Would be very helpful, if somehow we will be able to reorganize in Ocean of 1000s different names for massage therapy. On the record. 20 years ago when I did come to US, and introduce medical massage therapy name, no one talked about connective tissue massage, trigger point therapy, lymphedema management etc. people used to provide type of orthopedic massage and used to called it sports massage. Mainly practitioners used to practice Swedish massage. And suddenly 1000s.
By all means massage therapy is a medical procedure, and would be nice to talk one language, and not to confuse as well not to be confused. Anyone who practicing Swedish massage and performing petrissage less than 50% of procedure, not really performing medical massage, but if one will include 50% of time for petrissage, will perform great stress management massage, that will result less anxiety, decrease of blood pressure, less tension headaches, and other side effects of stress. It is simple like this. I will try to search my 9 or10 years old article, I have published at massage today on the subject. Title is Who Should Use the Title "Medical" Massage Therapist?
I hope it will help to balance 1000s names.possible I'm wrong, somehow it have to be adjusted. .
Best wishes.
Boris
Peter Lelean said:Goodness me , what a sad spectacle. Let's abandon the pompous, elitist and grammatically challenged diatribes . .
About trigger points . . . I use an activator to good effect (instant) often in conjunction with the techniques mentioned by Gary and Gordon. I have a little experience with fascia, and fascial lesions will always be associated with trigger points to some extent. Guys . .nobody gets it right 100% all the time, not even S&T (leg length), but they had the grace and attitude which serves as an example to the rest of us. When I want some moderately perverse amusement, I'll consider visiting this forum again:)
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-
Boris, One of my favorite quotations is, as far as learning goes. "The purpose of today's training is to undo what we learned yesterday." MIYAMOTO MUSASHI He was a master and artist of his trade..as well as a teacher.
http://www.myokinesthetic.com/ You should really buy this guys DVDs..It will change how you do massage...It will. Anyway Im not on this site anymore.. Im too busy with life anyway.. lol Im thinking about studying Thai Massage next.. Or Breema.. That will be interesting.....
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Peter.
I actually taking very seriously every discussion I'm involved in. Really didn't like constant Gordon’s dysencouraging statements, to young professionals, including describing orthopedic disorders as an not really complicated pathologies, and so simple to treat that for him enough to touch few times and all is over, and other “will fall off that platform”. I really care and don't want my colleagues(maybe some of them) to be dysencouraged, and to have wrong impressions on orthopedic massage. There is a lot of misunderstandings in regards of trigger points’definitions and treatments, therefore I proposed discussions, and even offered full scientific review on the subject.
I mean all one will read within scientific review can be questioned, and discussed. For some reason Gary decided that I am playing games. Honestly I don't know , how much people reading this posts, and how many of members could be influenced , therefore decided to confront it. Maybe I shouldn't .There is no silver bullet in our occupation but when we providing treatment for orthopedic disorders, treatment should be adequate, which means in most cases, not in all, but in most cases, symptoms shouldn't come back fast, or in some at all. You absolutely right, no one can be 100% right, but if clients will continue to talk about massage therapy being temporary relief, and will go back to painkillers, steroids injections etc. all our industry in jeopardy. Have to repeat myself, people do not have money anymore for feels good, and not effective treatment. Orthopedic massage is a simple procedure, and we can change condition pretty fast but ,there is no fast fix like one touch and all is over . Everyone have to know it before coming to table and treat. Would be very helpful, if somehow we will be able to reorganize in Ocean of 1000s different names for massage therapy. On the record. 20 years ago when I did come to US, and introduce medical massage therapy name, no one talked about connective tissue massage, trigger point therapy, lymphedema management etc. people used to provide type of orthopedic massage and used to called it sports massage. Mainly practitioners used to practice Swedish massage. And suddenly 1000s.
By all means massage therapy is a medical procedure, and would be nice to talk one language, and not to confuse as well not to be confused. Anyone who practicing Swedish massage and performing petrissage less than 50% of procedure, not really performing medical massage, but if one will include 50% of time for petrissage, will perform great stress management massage, that will result less anxiety, decrease of blood pressure, less tension headaches, and other side effects of stress. It is simple like this. I will try to search my 9 or10 years old article, I have published at massage today on the subject. Title is Who Should Use the Title "Medical" Massage Therapist?
I hope it will help to balance 1000s names.possible I'm wrong, somehow it have to be adjusted. .
Best wishes.
Boris
Peter Lelean said:Goodness me , what a sad spectacle. Let's abandon the pompous, elitist and grammatically challenged diatribes . .
About trigger points . . . I use an activator to good effect (instant) often in conjunction with the techniques mentioned by Gary and Gordon. I have a little experience with fascia, and fascial lesions will always be associated with trigger points to some extent. Guys . .nobody gets it right 100% all the time, not even S&T (leg length), but they had the grace and attitude which serves as an example to the rest of us. When I want some moderately perverse amusement, I'll consider visiting this forum again:)
-
-
Gordon. I know that nowadays we having1000s site promoting 1000s different methodologies, some of them promising very fast fix or “new revolutionary”. This 1000s new names phenomena is relatively not too old, 10 years old. I mean this what changed, within our industry. But natur of human body didn't change so much if at all. And if one simply did cut finger, it takes time to heal. Healing process means time, and sometime even pain decreased, it still continue, and if we will not stimulate this healings, symptoms and further pathological development, could continue.
As you know, many times disorders can be treated during seven days,or without treatment will get better during one week. But this is not a cases when real massage therapy have to be involved.
Have to run, maybe in the evening will continue.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:Boris, One of my favorite quotations is, as far as learning goes. "The purpose of today's training is to undo what we learned yesterday." MIYAMOTO MUSASHI He was a master and artist of his trade..as well as a teacher.
http://www.myokinesthetic.com/ You should really buy this guys DVDs..It will change how you do massage...It will. Anyway Im not on this site anymore.. Im too busy with life anyway.. lol Im thinking about studying Thai Massage next.. Or Breema.. That will be interesting.....
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Peter.
I actually taking very seriously every discussion I'm involved in. Really didn't like constant Gordon’s dysencouraging statements, to young professionals, including describing orthopedic disorders as an not really complicated pathologies, and so simple to treat that for him enough to touch few times and all is over, and other “will fall off that platform”. I really care and don't want my colleagues(maybe some of them) to be dysencouraged, and to have wrong impressions on orthopedic massage. There is a lot of misunderstandings in regards of trigger points’definitions and treatments, therefore I proposed discussions, and even offered full scientific review on the subject.
I mean all one will read within scientific review can be questioned, and discussed. For some reason Gary decided that I am playing games. Honestly I don't know , how much people reading this posts, and how many of members could be influenced , therefore decided to confront it. Maybe I shouldn't .There is no silver bullet in our occupation but when we providing treatment for orthopedic disorders, treatment should be adequate, which means in most cases, not in all, but in most cases, symptoms shouldn't come back fast, or in some at all. You absolutely right, no one can be 100% right, but if clients will continue to talk about massage therapy being temporary relief, and will go back to painkillers, steroids injections etc. all our industry in jeopardy. Have to repeat myself, people do not have money anymore for feels good, and not effective treatment. Orthopedic massage is a simple procedure, and we can change condition pretty fast but ,there is no fast fix like one touch and all is over . Everyone have to know it before coming to table and treat. Would be very helpful, if somehow we will be able to reorganize in Ocean of 1000s different names for massage therapy. On the record. 20 years ago when I did come to US, and introduce medical massage therapy name, no one talked about connective tissue massage, trigger point therapy, lymphedema management etc. people used to provide type of orthopedic massage and used to called it sports massage. Mainly practitioners used to practice Swedish massage. And suddenly 1000s.
By all means massage therapy is a medical procedure, and would be nice to talk one language, and not to confuse as well not to be confused. Anyone who practicing Swedish massage and performing petrissage less than 50% of procedure, not really performing medical massage, but if one will include 50% of time for petrissage, will perform great stress management massage, that will result less anxiety, decrease of blood pressure, less tension headaches, and other side effects of stress. It is simple like this. I will try to search my 9 or10 years old article, I have published at massage today on the subject. Title is Who Should Use the Title "Medical" Massage Therapist?
I hope it will help to balance 1000s names.possible I'm wrong, somehow it have to be adjusted. .
Best wishes.
Boris
Peter Lelean said:Goodness me , what a sad spectacle. Let's abandon the pompous, elitist and grammatically challenged diatribes . .
About trigger points . . . I use an activator to good effect (instant) often in conjunction with the techniques mentioned by Gary and Gordon. I have a little experience with fascia, and fascial lesions will always be associated with trigger points to some extent. Guys . .nobody gets it right 100% all the time, not even S&T (leg length), but they had the grace and attitude which serves as an example to the rest of us. When I want some moderately perverse amusement, I'll consider visiting this forum again:)
-
-
Gordon .In most cases of back and limp disorders, pain and dysfunctions is a result of, lymphedemas, tension within muscles and fascia, developed trigger points, and in general significant decrease of blood supply to the injured region.
Orthopedic massage techniques containing all, lymphedema management,myofascial release techniques, trigger point therapy, 12 different types of Petrissage techniques. This technical approaches, designed to address all mentioned above causes for pain and dysfunction . I agree that there is many different techniques for lymphedema management,myofascial release techniques, trigger point therapy, , that possibly can address it.This why I stated in my reply to you, trigger point therapy only, is not enough to sustain results. You shouldn't react in a way you did. Wasn't reason for it.
Best wishes.
Boris
Boris Prilutsky said:Gordon. I know that nowadays we having1000s site promoting 1000s different methodologies, some of them promising very fast fix or “new revolutionary”. This 1000s new names phenomena is relatively not too old, 10 years old. I mean this what changed, within our industry. But natur of human body didn't change so much if at all. And if one simply did cut finger, it takes time to heal. Healing process means time, and sometime even pain decreased, it still continue, and if we will not stimulate this healings, symptoms and further pathological development, could continue.
As you know, many times disorders can be treated during seven days,or without treatment will get better during one week. But this is not a cases when real massage therapy have to be involved.
Have to run, maybe in the evening will continue.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:Boris, One of my favorite quotations is, as far as learning goes. "The purpose of today's training is to undo what we learned yesterday." MIYAMOTO MUSASHI He was a master and artist of his trade..as well as a teacher.
http://www.myokinesthetic.com/ You should really buy this guys DVDs..It will change how you do massage...It will. Anyway Im not on this site anymore.. Im too busy with life anyway.. lol Im thinking about studying Thai Massage next.. Or Breema.. That will be interesting.....
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Peter.
I actually taking very seriously every discussion I'm involved in. Really didn't like constant Gordon’s dysencouraging statements, to young professionals, including describing orthopedic disorders as an not really complicated pathologies, and so simple to treat that for him enough to touch few times and all is over, and other “will fall off that platform”. I really care and don't want my colleagues(maybe some of them) to be dysencouraged, and to have wrong impressions on orthopedic massage. There is a lot of misunderstandings in regards of trigger points’definitions and treatments, therefore I proposed discussions, and even offered full scientific review on the subject.
I mean all one will read within scientific review can be questioned, and discussed. For some reason Gary decided that I am playing games. Honestly I don't know , how much people reading this posts, and how many of members could be influenced , therefore decided to confront it. Maybe I shouldn't .There is no silver bullet in our occupation but when we providing treatment for orthopedic disorders, treatment should be adequate, which means in most cases, not in all, but in most cases, symptoms shouldn't come back fast, or in some at all. You absolutely right, no one can be 100% right, but if clients will continue to talk about massage therapy being temporary relief, and will go back to painkillers, steroids injections etc. all our industry in jeopardy. Have to repeat myself, people do not have money anymore for feels good, and not effective treatment. Orthopedic massage is a simple procedure, and we can change condition pretty fast but ,there is no fast fix like one touch and all is over . Everyone have to know it before coming to table and treat. Would be very helpful, if somehow we will be able to reorganize in Ocean of 1000s different names for massage therapy. On the record. 20 years ago when I did come to US, and introduce medical massage therapy name, no one talked about connective tissue massage, trigger point therapy, lymphedema management etc. people used to provide type of orthopedic massage and used to called it sports massage. Mainly practitioners used to practice Swedish massage. And suddenly 1000s.
By all means massage therapy is a medical procedure, and would be nice to talk one language, and not to confuse as well not to be confused. Anyone who practicing Swedish massage and performing petrissage less than 50% of procedure, not really performing medical massage, but if one will include 50% of time for petrissage, will perform great stress management massage, that will result less anxiety, decrease of blood pressure, less tension headaches, and other side effects of stress. It is simple like this. I will try to search my 9 or10 years old article, I have published at massage today on the subject. Title is Who Should Use the Title "Medical" Massage Therapist?
I hope it will help to balance 1000s names.possible I'm wrong, somehow it have to be adjusted. .
Best wishes.
Boris
Peter Lelean said:Goodness me , what a sad spectacle. Let's abandon the pompous, elitist and grammatically challenged diatribes . .
About trigger points . . . I use an activator to good effect (instant) often in conjunction with the techniques mentioned by Gary and Gordon. I have a little experience with fascia, and fascial lesions will always be associated with trigger points to some extent. Guys . .nobody gets it right 100% all the time, not even S&T (leg length), but they had the grace and attitude which serves as an example to the rest of us. When I want some moderately perverse amusement, I'll consider visiting this forum again:)
-
-
http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/massage-therapist/Have-you-heard-Sp...
Boris Prilutsky said:Gordon .In most cases of back and limp disorders, pain and dysfunctions is a result of, lymphedemas, tension within muscles and fascia, developed trigger points, and in general significant decrease of blood supply to the injured region.
Orthopedic massage techniques containing all, lymphedema management,myofascial release techniques, trigger point therapy, 12 different types of Petrissage techniques. This technical approaches, designed to address all mentioned above causes for pain and dysfunction . I agree that there is many different techniques for lymphedema management,myofascial release techniques, trigger point therapy, , that possibly can address it.This why I stated in my reply to you, trigger point therapy only, is not enough to sustain results. You shouldn't react in a way you did. Wasn't reason for it.
Best wishes.
Boris
Boris Prilutsky said:Gordon. I know that nowadays we having1000s site promoting 1000s different methodologies, some of them promising very fast fix or “new revolutionary”. This 1000s new names phenomena is relatively not too old, 10 years old. I mean this what changed, within our industry. But natur of human body didn't change so much if at all. And if one simply did cut finger, it takes time to heal. Healing process means time, and sometime even pain decreased, it still continue, and if we will not stimulate this healings, symptoms and further pathological development, could continue.
As you know, many times disorders can be treated during seven days,or without treatment will get better during one week. But this is not a cases when real massage therapy have to be involved.
Have to run, maybe in the evening will continue.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:Boris, One of my favorite quotations is, as far as learning goes. "The purpose of today's training is to undo what we learned yesterday." MIYAMOTO MUSASHI He was a master and artist of his trade..as well as a teacher.
http://www.myokinesthetic.com/ You should really buy this guys DVDs..It will change how you do massage...It will. Anyway Im not on this site anymore.. Im too busy with life anyway.. lol Im thinking about studying Thai Massage next.. Or Breema.. That will be interesting.....
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Peter.
I actually taking very seriously every discussion I'm involved in. Really didn't like constant Gordon’s dysencouraging statements, to young professionals, including describing orthopedic disorders as an not really complicated pathologies, and so simple to treat that for him enough to touch few times and all is over, and other “will fall off that platform”. I really care and don't want my colleagues(maybe some of them) to be dysencouraged, and to have wrong impressions on orthopedic massage. There is a lot of misunderstandings in regards of trigger points’definitions and treatments, therefore I proposed discussions, and even offered full scientific review on the subject.
I mean all one will read within scientific review can be questioned, and discussed. For some reason Gary decided that I am playing games. Honestly I don't know , how much people reading this posts, and how many of members could be influenced , therefore decided to confront it. Maybe I shouldn't .There is no silver bullet in our occupation but when we providing treatment for orthopedic disorders, treatment should be adequate, which means in most cases, not in all, but in most cases, symptoms shouldn't come back fast, or in some at all. You absolutely right, no one can be 100% right, but if clients will continue to talk about massage therapy being temporary relief, and will go back to painkillers, steroids injections etc. all our industry in jeopardy. Have to repeat myself, people do not have money anymore for feels good, and not effective treatment. Orthopedic massage is a simple procedure, and we can change condition pretty fast but ,there is no fast fix like one touch and all is over . Everyone have to know it before coming to table and treat. Would be very helpful, if somehow we will be able to reorganize in Ocean of 1000s different names for massage therapy. On the record. 20 years ago when I did come to US, and introduce medical massage therapy name, no one talked about connective tissue massage, trigger point therapy, lymphedema management etc. people used to provide type of orthopedic massage and used to called it sports massage. Mainly practitioners used to practice Swedish massage. And suddenly 1000s.
By all means massage therapy is a medical procedure, and would be nice to talk one language, and not to confuse as well not to be confused. Anyone who practicing Swedish massage and performing petrissage less than 50% of procedure, not really performing medical massage, but if one will include 50% of time for petrissage, will perform great stress management massage, that will result less anxiety, decrease of blood pressure, less tension headaches, and other side effects of stress. It is simple like this. I will try to search my 9 or10 years old article, I have published at massage today on the subject. Title is Who Should Use the Title "Medical" Massage Therapist?
I hope it will help to balance 1000s names.possible I'm wrong, somehow it have to be adjusted. .
Best wishes.
Boris
Peter Lelean said:Goodness me , what a sad spectacle. Let's abandon the pompous, elitist and grammatically challenged diatribes . .
About trigger points . . . I use an activator to good effect (instant) often in conjunction with the techniques mentioned by Gary and Gordon. I have a little experience with fascia, and fascial lesions will always be associated with trigger points to some extent. Guys . .nobody gets it right 100% all the time, not even S&T (leg length), but they had the grace and attitude which serves as an example to the rest of us. When I want some moderately perverse amusement, I'll consider visiting this forum again:)
-
-
Hi Gordon.
During this discussion as well other discussions, all the time you offering different links to dozens of different websites, that proposing different methodologies of treatment. most of my professional life, I'm used to and reading related to occupation data, and always was selective in doing so. Growing up in different professional society I was lucky to be protected by editorial boards , as well professional norms not to be exposed to 1000s different approaches . Having said this, I don't want to say that all of 1000s, concepts are not good. Cannot say it, because I'm not familiar with this proposals. It is impossible to read all of them, to analyze it etc. On the other hand, I can assure you, that it is impossible to have 1000s different concepts and approaches, to treat the same abnormalities. Simple impossible. And the reason of it,, because nature of pathologies ,pathogenesis is the same, lymphedemas, tension within muscles and fascia, developed trigger points, and in general significant decrease of blood supply. Nature of the healing process, is the same. Possible can be different techniques, to address this pathologies mentioned above, but not concepts of pathology, medical physiology, physiological effect of massage etc.
Why you so desperately searching for NEW? Aren't methodology that you are trained, and practicing providing sustained results? It is absolutely not sarcastic question.
I really suspect that you are not realizing the fact, that at any research control group when we testing real treatment against placebo, in average 30% out coming to good reports , mainly it subjective reports. I mean patient reporting feeling better, but objectively range of motion wasn't increase as well other objective factors .Maybe this “new”is the placebo effect, and immediately after treatment. You can say and I agree, who cares, better is better. But we have to achieve sustained results, not only feels good after treatment. As I stated, in most cases nature of pathologies ,pathogenesis is the same, and if methodology of treatment not addressing causes of pain and dysfunctions just deny this methodology.
I know there is no silver bullet in our occupation, and know it because we are all different from prospective of energy potentials to heal, and complex of body and mind. I witnessed significant healing with sustained results, when person didn't provide massage therapy but touch or even with out of touching. How many of us having this potentials? Not a lot.
But I also know that nature of pathologies ,pathogenesis is the same. I really hope that you and Gary, and other 10 people who according to Gary’s private e-mail to me, send him congratulations for” taking on me”,would understand my good intentions, why I am calling against 1000s names.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/massage-therapist/Have-you-heard-Sp...
Boris Prilutsky said:Gordon .In most cases of back and limp disorders, pain and dysfunctions is a result of, lymphedemas, tension within muscles and fascia, developed trigger points, and in general significant decrease of blood supply to the injured region.
Orthopedic massage techniques containing all, lymphedema management,myofascial release techniques, trigger point therapy, 12 different types of Petrissage techniques. This technical approaches, designed to address all mentioned above causes for pain and dysfunction . I agree that there is many different techniques for lymphedema management,myofascial release techniques, trigger point therapy, , that possibly can address it.This why I stated in my reply to you, trigger point therapy only, is not enough to sustain results. You shouldn't react in a way you did. Wasn't reason for it.
Best wishes.
Boris
Boris Prilutsky said:Gordon. I know that nowadays we having1000s site promoting 1000s different methodologies, some of them promising very fast fix or “new revolutionary”. This 1000s new names phenomena is relatively not too old, 10 years old. I mean this what changed, within our industry. But natur of human body didn't change so much if at all. And if one simply did cut finger, it takes time to heal. Healing process means time, and sometime even pain decreased, it still continue, and if we will not stimulate this healings, symptoms and further pathological development, could continue.
As you know, many times disorders can be treated during seven days,or without treatment will get better during one week. But this is not a cases when real massage therapy have to be involved.
Have to run, maybe in the evening will continue.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:Boris, One of my favorite quotations is, as far as learning goes. "The purpose of today's training is to undo what we learned yesterday." MIYAMOTO MUSASHI He was a master and artist of his trade..as well as a teacher.
http://www.myokinesthetic.com/ You should really buy this guys DVDs..It will change how you do massage...It will. Anyway Im not on this site anymore.. Im too busy with life anyway.. lol Im thinking about studying Thai Massage next.. Or Breema.. That will be interesting.....
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Peter.
I actually taking very seriously every discussion I'm involved in. Really didn't like constant Gordon’s dysencouraging statements, to young professionals, including describing orthopedic disorders as an not really complicated pathologies, and so simple to treat that for him enough to touch few times and all is over, and other “will fall off that platform”. I really care and don't want my colleagues(maybe some of them) to be dysencouraged, and to have wrong impressions on orthopedic massage. There is a lot of misunderstandings in regards of trigger points’definitions and treatments, therefore I proposed discussions, and even offered full scientific review on the subject.
I mean all one will read within scientific review can be questioned, and discussed. For some reason Gary decided that I am playing games. Honestly I don't know , how much people reading this posts, and how many of members could be influenced , therefore decided to confront it. Maybe I shouldn't .There is no silver bullet in our occupation but when we providing treatment for orthopedic disorders, treatment should be adequate, which means in most cases, not in all, but in most cases, symptoms shouldn't come back fast, or in some at all. You absolutely right, no one can be 100% right, but if clients will continue to talk about massage therapy being temporary relief, and will go back to painkillers, steroids injections etc. all our industry in jeopardy. Have to repeat myself, people do not have money anymore for feels good, and not effective treatment. Orthopedic massage is a simple procedure, and we can change condition pretty fast but ,there is no fast fix like one touch and all is over . Everyone have to know it before coming to table and treat. Would be very helpful, if somehow we will be able to reorganize in Ocean of 1000s different names for massage therapy. On the record. 20 years ago when I did come to US, and introduce medical massage therapy name, no one talked about connective tissue massage, trigger point therapy, lymphedema management etc. people used to provide type of orthopedic massage and used to called it sports massage. Mainly practitioners used to practice Swedish massage. And suddenly 1000s.
By all means massage therapy is a medical procedure, and would be nice to talk one language, and not to confuse as well not to be confused. Anyone who practicing Swedish massage and performing petrissage less than 50% of procedure, not really performing medical massage, but if one will include 50% of time for petrissage, will perform great stress management massage, that will result less anxiety, decrease of blood pressure, less tension headaches, and other side effects of stress. It is simple like this. I will try to search my 9 or10 years old article, I have published at massage today on the subject. Title is Who Should Use the Title "Medical" Massage Therapist?
I hope it will help to balance 1000s names.possible I'm wrong, somehow it have to be adjusted. .
Best wishes.
Boris
Peter Lelean said:Goodness me , what a sad spectacle. Let's abandon the pompous, elitist and grammatically challenged diatribes . .
About trigger points . . . I use an activator to good effect (instant) often in conjunction with the techniques mentioned by Gary and Gordon. I have a little experience with fascia, and fascial lesions will always be associated with trigger points to some extent. Guys . .nobody gets it right 100% all the time, not even S&T (leg length), but they had the grace and attitude which serves as an example to the rest of us. When I want some moderately perverse amusement, I'll consider visiting this forum again:)
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