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The over emphasis on fascia
I’m sure this will be controversial. But like everything I write in here, it’s my truth.
There is too much emphasis on fascia. And I feel that is one of the reasons that holds our profession back. I never once think about fascia when I’m working(doing my best to help people out of pain). I do however think about muscle. Muscle has a much, much, much sronger contractile force then fascia. There is really no comparison. Muscles move bones. And can certainly distort posture. Then when you consider the fact that muscles work in chains and groups that function as one powerful muscle. You are going to be a much more effective therapist if you concentrate on releasing tight painful contracted muscle tissue, instead of of releasing fascia. My opinion only. Something to think about?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Kit Lofroos on
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I recommend you watch Gil Hedley's video series (http://gilhedley.com/setinfo.php).
You will see through his dissection work that although muscles have more contractile strength, the muscles and fascial web are entwined to such a degree that it IS Impossible to physically separate them from one another. From the cellular wall-level (and interstitial fluid) up to to epidermal layer-level there is no separation- just differing properties between epi-, meso-, and endo-dermal layers. Some understanding of biodynamic embryological development I have also found helpful in understanding the body (Erich Blechschmidt as translated by Brian Freeman [I found the video series easier than reading the "Ontogenetic Basis of Human Anatomy"]).
Tom Meyers is also a great resource on this fascial topic.
Tensile action exists in both muscle as well as is fascia.
If epidermal fascia were dissected off of a body, you would be able to recognize the person (if you had known them!) or recognize the epidermis as a human. Not so with the musculature.
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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
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I have read Tom Meyers book, and watched another therapist do myofascial release on a client. And I could have accomplished much more in a fraction of the time, just by eliminating trigger points. And 90% of the patients I’m working on in this pain clinic, could not at all handle a Myofascial release session let alone a Rolfing session. Fascia is there and everything. But I personally don’t see it as a practical or efficient way to approach most myofascial pain conditions.
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Your initial statement was incomplete only because only in your follow-up did you mention any of your issues and ideas.
Whatever you are doing is helping your patients/clients, which is good for them.There is no one way, to offer healing- except not causing more pain!
There is no way of doing Trigger points, etc. (enter most any modality here) without affecting fascia since yet again, you are affecting fascia when you are doing trigger points. Even Acupuncture needles affect fascia at the Meridian points.
The Tp's fascial collagen and viscoeleastic fibers are stuck together encumbering movements of muscles.
Still recommend Gil's reverent dissection videos. They gave me a deeper appreciation of the functional form of ALL of the body's tissues that are interconnected----- through fascia.
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I will check his videos out.
Kit Lofroos said:Your initial statement was incomplete only because only in your follow-up did you mention any of your issues and ideas.
Whatever you are doing is helping your patients/clients, which is good for them.There is no one way, to offer healing- except not causing more pain!
There is no way of doing Trigger points, etc. (enter most any modality here) without affecting fascia since yet again, you are affecting fascia when you are doing trigger points. Even Acupuncture needles affect fascia at the Meridian points.
The Tp's fascial collagen and viscoeleastic fibers are stuck together encumbering movements of muscles.
Still recommend Gil's reverent dissection videos. They gave me a deeper appreciation of the functional form of ALL of the body's tissues that are interconnected----- through fascia.
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Permalink Reply by Jody C. Hutchinson on
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S Brown,
Good work on bringing science into the light. I doubt that you'll get much agreement here, though. The few who post here are very biased and not current with their research. They are stuck in their confirmation bias and still looking for pain and tension in soft tissues, not the nervous system.
Thank you for the jennirawlings article, a very good piece on fascia.
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Jody, how come when you touch a sore spot on the body, the person moans or flinches? So you are saying that cellular damage in a muscle cell does not cause pain?
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I’ve read that before. I’ve read several of his articles. Ive payed for them. I’m not disagreeing with you. I know that pain involves more then just trigger points. But often times, if you eliminate trigger points. You break that pain cycle. And the patient heals. Placebo, mind over matter or whatever.
A massage therapists input(skill set) done properly does wonders, and often times totally cures. That includes how you talk(confidence) and carry yourself. The ones that I help, or any massage therapist helps, obviously has a major myofascial component involved in their pain. Sorry the diagram is a bit blurry.
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Just so you guys know. Susan and I have a history. She is always telling me that I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m telling you guys that you can break the pain cycle. It’s done all the time. By me and others. If you are able to change one input to the body neuromatrix , you change the output. Here is a most recent example.
A new patient, eight months pregnant, came into the clinic in severe pain. She was walking slowly with a walker and could hardly breath. Three months after a major lumbar fusion, she found herself pregnant. The doctors called me into the room. They suspected a major myofascial component to her pain. When I walked into the room I saw a women in obvious distress. She was slouched over sitting in her walker, and could hardly talk. Intense back pain, as you can imagine. Her doctor sent her to an advanced pain clinic. I did a release for her lumbar spine. Then got this video testimonial. Check it out. Gosh if that’s not breaking a pain cycle? It’s her words.
I saw her the next day. She came in smiling and was fine. No pain and no walker. You can break the pain cycle.
And Susan, Paul’s articles are free. But his more complete materials tutorials,that have more information, you pay for. https://www.painscience.com/tutorials/tutorials.php
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Sorry I got your name wrong. But how do you explain that patients testimonial in the video? Did you even watch it? You said in your prior statement that we don’t break the pain cycle. That the nervous system does. But if I didn’t come into that room, her nervous system would have kept her in pain. Believe what you want. I will keep breaking pain cycles as often as possible.
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In addition, you said that pain is neuro-centric, not all bio mechanical. But when you influence the input to your patients/clients body neuromatrix, in her case, eliminate four lumbar paraspinal trigger points(bio mechanical), her pain is gone. And as far as pain goes. Gone is good. That’s called breaking the pain cycle.
And we do have a history. You have been very mean and nasty to me many times in the past. I just got your first name wrong. Maybe this will remind you?
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Stacey Brown. I’m curious. Do you think that what you see in this video is based on how the body really works? Or is it just made up folk medicine and magical thinking? I know that it’s not taught in any school. Thanks for your answer.- Gordon
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Please scroll down. I can’t manoover this website perfectly. I attempted to answer Laurie’s question about why I attribute contracted muscle tissue with pain. The illustrations back up my answer, which is in the middle of the illustrations. Again, this is my truth.
Laurie, for some reason I can’t find your question on the thread? Anyway, it’s a good one. My answer....... Over the last 30 years of doing this kind of work. Now some may disagree with me, and that’s ok. But I’ve found trigger points to be the leading cause of myofascial pain. Myofascial pain as opposed to nerve pain. By trigger points I mean sore tender spots in the muscle that may or may not cause the person to flinch or radiate pain. I have found that if you are able to eliminate those trigger points, often the patient/client feels noticeably better if not totally pain free.
A trigger pointed muscle is a contracted shortened muscle. Muscles work in chains. Muscle chains are several muscles that function as one muscle. So if there are trigger points in a muscle chain, it’s a shortened contracted chain. Sense the brain wants to keep the eyes parallel to the ground, other muscle chains will have to compensate, and perhaps develop trigger points themselves. Remember, muscles have very strong contractile abilities. I have worked on people with multiple trigger points, that actually had to readjust the rear view mirror in their car because of the postural changes that took place after the trigger point work. Trigger points cause pain. It’s cellular damage in the muscle cell, which causes those cells to contract. And the muscle, and muscle chain it’s on becomes weakened and contracted. So for me, contracted muscle tissue often means pain. Here is an illustration of two muscle chains. Remember the brain wants the eyes parallel to the ground. Remember everything I say in here is my truth. Scroll down to see and read the illustrations. Remember.
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