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Body Cells Carry Emotional Memory
Body Cells Carry Emotional Memory
By Boris Prilutsky
I found the theory that body cells carry emotional memories to be a true one. During my 38 years of clinical experience, numerous times I have witnessed the emotional reactions of my patients/clients to soft tissue mobilization. To more clearly explain this phenomenon, I would like to share one of my most interesting clinical experiences with you that support the theory of emotional memory being carried body cells.
Over 20 years ago, I treated one of the world-renowned boxers of the time from a shoulder injury. The right shoulder had a severe sprain/strain case with suspicion of possible rotator cuff tear. As with all such cases, after 24 hours of cold application procedures (cold application must be applied no more than 10-15 minutes and must be repeated every two hours) we started intensive massage therapy on the unaffected side in order to awake vasomotor reflex that will express by increasing blood supply to the injured extremities. I began to follow the treatment protocol for the above-mentioned purposes, starting to mobilize all groups of rotator cuff muscles layer by layer, as well as the anterior, posterior, and middle part of the deltoid muscles. As he was receiving the massage therapy, suddenly this big, tough, extremely strong man started crying, vocalizing sounds like that of a little boy. He was confused and expressed his embarrassment at breaking down in tears.
Being familiar with the theory that body cells carry emotional memory, I suggested to him to cry out whatever this emotional memory was. The sport clinical psychologist was informed of the incident. During his evaluation, this professional athlete, with the help of the psychologist, recovered a memory from his deep subconscious of an event that happened to him when he was eight years old.
Briefly, the story was that the boy's grandfather (his mother's father) once interrupted the constant fight between the boy's father and alcoholic mother; his grandfather attacked his father with a hammer. Afterward, the father was delivered in critical condition to the hospital and the grandfather was arrested. During this period of time, the little boy future boxing champion fell, off his bicycle and hurt his left shoulder. Crying, he came to his mom who was screaming into the phone, and asked her to comfort him because of the pain in his shoulder. His mother reacted in anger, and took his pleas as just whining for attention and she hit him with the phone a few times on this painful shoulder. All these years, on a subconscious level, this man carried difficult baggage of these memories of events related to losing the most important people in his life; his grandfather and father; and related to rejection by his mother. This kind of crying, emotional release tremendously helped this athlete to get rid of this subconscious trauma. This heavy emotional baggage was terribly disturbing and robbed him of a lot of happiness all these years, without him even knowing it existed. My experience has taught me that usually these emotional releases happen with people at the time when we perform massage (including deep tissue mobilization) in the inhibitory regime. Please be aware that emotional release may not be expressed by crying. Many clients may report to you that they have trouble sleeping and experience worry, or they may start shaking during the massage. Some of them will report unusual emotional sensitivity. Please explain to your clients that all above-mentioned reactions are very positive reactions and within the next few days of going through these reactions, they will feel a great deal better. Regarding the boxer whose case I presented to you, he later reported to me that he never thought that this subconscious baggage could destroy the quality and happiness of his life so much. He told me that thanks to this innocent massage therapy on the healthy shoulder, he was able to find peace within himself.
It's reasonable to assume that the memory of the emotional experience is stored somewhere in the brain - the system that is specialized in memory handling and remained inaccessible, as many other memories a human being experiencing during the life. But the shoulder cells hold the bookmark or a memory address of where the actual memories of the incident were stored in the brain. Thus by activating the shoulder cell you triggered the process of loading the content of that remote memory in the active memory, causing the aforementioned reaction.
As you can see from this episode, clinical psychology approach alone wouldn't be sufficient, because of the emotional memories carried by the cells of his body. Presently, I receive professional referrals from clinical psychologists.
Dear colleagues, I would like to encourage you to contact clinical psychologists in your neighborhoods and to offer them your services to incorporate massage therapy in their treatments. The Latin word "doctor" means educator. After being involved in many cases,at US it is clear to me that we should educate not only our clients about the power and importance of massage therapy, but also other health care practitioners.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Noel Norwick on
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Christopher:
1. Re your explanation of the term "Scare Quotes": No wonder you and so many in your field have so much problem communicating with or being acknowledge by the general public as a "a ‘hub science,’ meaning it is one of the major branches around which other scientific disciplines are organized". Your use of quotes for the term 'hub science' seems curious given your statement that "Scare quotes are an indication that the person using them hasn't defined their terms or is using terms that are not even able to be accurately defined. "Hard" science is a good example of this - it's a casual concept with no precise definition."
2. Your belief that engineering is not a science is quite funny to this member of the general public. This is because it's coming from a Ph.D in psychology. I expect that Ph.D.'s in Engineering and members of ASTM [ http://www.astm.org/ ] would likely enjoy "correcting" your opinion of their field by sharing with you their opinions regarding why their field is more of a basic and generally recognized as being a socially valuable basic science that is psychology.
3. Re "conversation, emotion and emotional processes are central to psychology", I wonder if you as a Ph.D in Psychology might consider modifying your stated opinion in light of the following article on "Embodiment as a unifying perspective for psychology" by Arthur M. Glenberg which is an expanded version of a presentation given on the Architecture of Cognition symposium at the meeting of the National Science Foundation under Grant No. 0744105. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/wcs.55/abstract
4. Re Michael Tschakovsky's massage study protocol; Yes, in my opinion that this was a fatally flawed study. Please cite recognized experts in clinical massage who claim(ed) that massage should be applied to inflamed tissues and that this is something that should be researched. Additionally you might note the "opinion" of Ross Turchaninov M.D. in his "Journal of Massage Science" regarding how this study was flawed: http://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/1009/sports.aspx
5. Re my questioning of your authority to state categorically that other are wrong and that they are not adhering to scientific methodologies; I hope we can will agree that all true scientific researchers accept as a basic premise that there have and will continue to be significant conflict that eventually leads to improvements in both the current generally accepted methodologies and/or their application?
6. It's sad that your remain stuck in the curious belief that my use of quotation marks necessarily implies a desire to scare the reader or to cover for a lack of definitional precision. Such were not my motives or how I use them.
7. To answer your question, I'm curious regarding your opinion of David Butler's work as he is one of the leading internationally recognized experts in the field of neurodynamics and in your opinion of "Trauma and the Body - A Sensorimotor Approach to Psychotherapy" as it's a topic on which I expect you will have an expert and possibly helpful opinion.
8. We can agree on your statement: "The compatibility of the theories and ideas with prior knowledge, and the extent to which they can be supported with data, are what really count." That said, it's worth noting that clinical practice and practitioners routinely find that generally accepted academic "knowledge", theories and ideas based on "data" developed by researchers don't necessarily translate well into routine professional practice. It's generally acknowledged that there are many "events" that don't lend themselves to being subjected to double blind statistically analyzable studies. Do you agree that complex system cannot always be broken down into testable linear cause and effect mechanisms? If yes, I wonder what is your professional opinion regarding the design and use of quantitative vs qualitative analysis of research study designs?
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Permalink Reply by Christopher A. Moyer on
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Noel, I want to thank you. For the last couple days I've been considering dropping off this site for good, as it's felt like a total waste of my time. But something was holding me back. I held out some hope that there might still be people here capable of engaging in meaningful discussion. But now you've shown me the folly of my thinking, while also ignoring any and every point that I've made and managing to bore me all at the same time. You win.
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Permalink Reply by Gary W Addis, LMT on
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Noel, once again I thank you for your cogent, detailed and eloquent response.
= Gary
Noel Norwick said:Christopher:
1. Re your explanation of the term "Scare Quotes": No wonder you and so many in your field have so much problem communicating with or being acknowledge by the general public as a "a ‘hub science,’ meaning it is one of the major branches around which other scientific disciplines are organized". Your use of quotes for the term 'hub science' seems curious given your statement that "Scare quotes are an indication that the person using them hasn't defined their terms or is using terms that are not even able to be accurately defined. "Hard" science is a good example of this - it's a casual concept with no precise definition."
2. Your belief that engineering is not a science is quite funny to this member of the general public. This is because it's coming from a Ph.D in psychology. I expect that Ph.D.'s in Engineering and members of ASTM [ http://www.astm.org/ ] would likely enjoy "correcting" your opinion of their field by sharing with you their opinions regarding why their field is more of a basic and generally recognized as being a socially valuable basic science that is psychology.
3. Re "conversation, emotion and emotional processes are central to psychology", I wonder if you as a Ph.D in Psychology might consider modifying your stated opinion in light of the following article on "Embodiment as a unifying perspective for psychology" by Arthur M. Glenberg which is an expanded version of a presentation given on the Architecture of Cognition symposium at the meeting of the National Science Foundation under Grant No. 0744105. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/wcs.55/abstract
4. Re Michael Tschakovsky's massage study protocol; Yes, in my opinion that this was a fatally flawed study. Please cite recognized experts in clinical massage who claim(ed) that massage should be applied to inflamed tissues and that this is something that should be researched. Additionally you might note the "opinion" of Ross Turchaninov M.D. in his "Journal of Massage Science" regarding how this study was flawed: http://www.scienceofmassage.com/dnn/som/journal/1009/sports.aspx
5. Re my questioning of your authority to state categorically that other are wrong and that they are not adhering to scientific methodologies; I hope we can will agree that all true scientific researchers accept as a basic premise that there have and will continue to be significant conflict that eventually leads to improvements in both the current generally accepted methodologies and/or their application?
6. It's sad that your remain stuck in the curious belief that my use of quotation marks necessarily implies a desire to scare the reader or to cover for a lack of definitional precision. Such were not my motives or how I use them.
7. To answer your question, I'm curious regarding your opinion of David Butler's work as he is one of the leading internationally recognized experts in the field of neurodynamics and in your opinion of "Trauma and the Body - A Sensorimotor Approach to Psychotherapy" as it's a topic on which I expect you will have an expert and possibly helpful opinion.
8. We can agree on your statement: "The compatibility of the theories and ideas with prior knowledge, and the extent to which they can be supported with data, are what really count." That said, it's worth noting that clinical practice and practitioners routinely find that generally accepted academic "knowledge", theories and ideas based on "data" developed by researchers don't necessarily translate well into routine professional practice. It's generally acknowledged that there are many "events" that don't lend themselves to being subjected to double blind statistically analyzable studies. Do you agree that complex system cannot always be broken down into testable linear cause and effect mechanisms? If yes, I wonder what is your professional opinion regarding the design and use of quantitative vs qualitative analysis of research study designs?
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Why should he not ignore points you make when you are so skillful at ignoring the points others make.
Christopher A. Moyer said:
Noel, I want to thank you. For the last couple days I've been considering dropping off this site for good, as it's felt like a total waste of my time. But something was holding me back. I held out some hope that there might still be people here capable of engaging in meaningful discussion. But now you've shown me the folly of my thinking, while also ignoring any and every point that I've made and managing to bore me all at the same time. You win.
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Permalink Reply by Choice Kinchen on
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Gary, as a successful MT of 11 years, I appreciate the hard work you are putting into school. I hope people skills and communication are part of the curriculum. But, I gotta tell you, I'm not that confident you would make a passing grade. I'm sure you'll respond to this with a lot of anger (some management perhaps?), but I won't know......this whole forum thing has turned into jr.high and I'm not interested in revisiting. Good luck with your career...........you're going to need it.
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Choice, I usually respond politely to polite people; when I am attacked, I counter. If you go back through this thread a few weeks, when I first stumbled onto it, you might understand the dynamics of the thread. Was Boris partly responsible for the animus that developed during a previous thread? Not for me to say as I wasn't involved. However, in this thread, Boris was battling two highly educated, eloquent posters, one an LMT, the other holds advanced degrees in an unrelated field. Boris is an intelligent LMT with more than three decades of experience (more than you and Ravensara and Vlad combined). Boris speaks and writes in several languages, but English is not his first. At the time I entered this fray I had just reread an article in Massage&Bodywork that essentially made the point that Boris was making in this thread, that the body does remember. The accusation thrown at him was--the word "silly" comes to mind. For Boris had attempted to explain about two dozen times that, no, he was not claiming that cells contain tiny brains. In a number of posts I too tried to explain to Raven and Christopher that, no, cells don't have brains, but that by whatever mechanism, cells do interact with the brain; that sometimes, for whatever reason and by whatever mechanism, cells can and do refuse to carry out the brains instructions. In effect, that body tissues do remember past trauma. Neither Chris nor Ravensara would accept that as factual. That, friend Choice Kinchen, is the thread in a nutshell.
As for your opinion of me, what are you basing it on? Have you been following the entire thread? or did you pick it up about the time I referred to the psychologist as an ass? Actually, I merely agreed with his opinion of himself. Because he could not defeat a point I had made, he twisted my comment, distorting its meaning in a smarmy manner. As they had been doing with Boris. Christophe attacked; my response was that I recognized the tactic, and asked him to cut it out...to not be an ass. Tag-teamers that they are, Raven picked up on it and snickered, taking my comment totally out of context. Read the thread, Choice. My comment was easy enough to understand: I said that, unlike Raven's previously stated opinions and that of Christopher the psychologist-cum-scientist, I would not close my mind to Reiki and other energy modalities until I had studied them. Was my phraseology faulty? Not so badly phrased that those two kings of academe could not comprehend my meaning. Therefore, their responses were catty. As I stated in the beginning of this post, when attacked I counter-punch. My blue collar origins revealing itself. When I am spoken to in a respectful manner, I respond respectfully.
Yes, I am now merely a student. But I match your 11 years with more than 35 years' experience working with and studying the human body, as a quite successful competitive bodybuilder/powerlifter, and certified personal trainer. I am 62 but feel 40 and except for the face, look 30. You haven't revealed your own age, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that I read my first A&P textbook while you were still eating your older sis's crayons.
Your comment to me, though camouflaged with a spray of perfume, is not respectful. I think I'll cry myself to sleep.
Choice Kinchen said:Gary, as a successful MT of 11 years, I appreciate the hard work you are putting into school. I hope people skills and communication are part of the curriculum. But, I gotta tell you, I'm not that confident you would make a passing grade. I'm sure you'll respond to this with a lot of anger (some management perhaps?), but I won't know......this whole forum thing has turned into jr.high and I'm not interested in revisiting. Good luck with your career...........you're going to need it.
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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Hi Christopher.
I'm writing it and having heavy heart because I know that probably it will be not great pleasure for you to read it, but it must stop. I mean this kind of norms of professional discussions.
Just come back home from work but immediately paid attention to your communication with Noel, and changed my plan which was, as I promise to discuss with you the “apricot”that you mention in your post. Reading your first reply to Noel. Ihave come to additional conclusion,that a) your communication is a manipulation of fancy words with no substance .b) you have wrong impression what science is and role of it in our life including your understanding of scientific evidence, and importance of it. c) your goodbye to this site post is absolute evidence that you feel superior to any massage therapist. Like this site members rejecting “Messiah” who will tell us how to treat people. My God Christopher, leave this field or change your attitude and perception. The most important what you must to understand is that massage therapy about results and not talking only including not only about meta-analysis. In my reply on your comments on Wolf, I hope to convince you that you have to change, and will briefly explain to you what science is for, and how to view it. I feel strongly that I can advice to you on this subject. I mean specifically for massage field. Maybe you have potential of scientists but you not the one yet. Don't be angry on meI am expressing my opinion because it is for your good. Noel is a not as simple as you probably thought and didn't felt for manipulation of fancy words, and you immediately rejected the members of site, who didn't come to "defend" you. Then why to make this drama statement? You could just leave and this all. But my personal request is don't do it now, until I will reply on apricot statement of yours.
Regards.
Boris
Christopher A. Moyer said:
Noel, I want to thank you. For the last couple days I've been considering dropping off this site for good, as it's felt like a total waste of my time. But something was holding me back. I held out some hope that there might still be people here capable of engaging in meaningful discussion. But now you've shown me the folly of my thinking, while also ignoring any and every point that I've made and managing to bore me all at the same time. You win.
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Hi Christopher.
I hope you will agree with me that the aging is unstoppable process. Yes I am not young anymore but thank God still strong and Happy man. Additional to all other extremely important gifts in my life such as my family, my friends, my hobbies, my happiness is fueled by my occupation that I love very much, and as much as possible for my case competent in it. Now let's talk about apricot Wolf.
Below is a link to this clip. When Michael Hinkle offer us this footage on energy work group I was amazed by what I have witnessed. We saw very sick animal who have demonstrated symptoms of very difficult neurological disease. After this lady hold this animal for a while we all witnessed significant improvement such as less degree of twisted neck, less forcible arch. My goodness. I was immediately excited so much and posted, that no doubt due to clinical outcome as well seeing no manipulation of soft tissue we all have witnessed some type of energy work. You immediately posted statement expressing skeptic view because this phenomenon impossible to explain. My reply to you was that there is no matter if we can explain it or not most important that wolf got better. As a clinician I know how difficult to reach results in this cases of Autoimmune diseases. You still resisted and somehow we did have converted discussion to vigorous argument. Honestly I do regret. If would know that you have nothing to do with clinical work in treatment room wouldn't discuss with you this case .BTW.Not wasting time and because I was so excited, I have comment on youtube that this is an amazing what I saw and because placebo here excluded no doubt in my mind that I saw some type of energy healing. Just happened that my comment on this youtube clip was the first one. Today more than 100 people placed similar to my comments . Looks like come out that your opinion was in minority. But this is not important. Important that Wolf got better. And here is no discussions or argument having place. As a real scientist even who cannot explain this phenomenon have to accept most important what science is about “Wolf got better.”
Fttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GC1Sw__ooE
in regard to research. I was trained, and practicing methods/protocols that where developed through extensive research including control group, and medical statistic applications. Most important that this protocols clinically proving as a working-delivering results. Approximately 8 years ago, I share my knowledge in management of hypertension with Prof.Gura. He was very skeptical, because hypertension pandemically affecting American population, causing strokes and heart attacks, costing a lot of money and suddenly some simple massage will make different?????? he stated that he is ready to believe that massage can help people who suffering from neck pains but from hypertension??? I have convinced him to allow me to select few people who suffering from neck pain as well from hypertension, and let's try to eliminate pain in the neck region. On this he agreed. When he saw how this treatment have affected hypertensive phenomenon, he immediately contacted his friend Prof. of medicine who consider to be internationally known expert in hypertension Research. When this professor saw data he also got skeptical and said this is placebo. I requested Amazon frock . When under sensors I performed 18 minutes of massage he wasn't anymore skeptical about the power of this treatment. Real scientist who started believing when saw clinical outcome. Was ready for large research, but we couldn't find money to sponsor it. Please click on link below to read preliminary report of this pilot studies . Any research in our fields have to lead to clinical outcomes. Please read article on this subject.
http://www.massageandbodywork.com/Articles/AugSep2003/Medicalmassag...
I know that Vlad can survive without talking to me. It just wrong to happen this way.
Christopher A. Moyer said:
meta-analysis combines the results of several studies that address a set of related research hypotheses.usually one doing it when planning to write research protocol.otherwise for different "purposes" meta-analysis and all statistic that coming from it,having no value.
Well, you certainly cleared that up. Iron-clad reasoning there.
you probably didn't born when I already participate in researches including being principal investigator
Right, you're old, we got it. 39 years experience.
definitely I do not speak for you, but hoping that for many.you said:"I'll be looking out for your class on Wolf Energy work when you advertise it on here." it does means that you even didn't bother to find out that in my post I talked about youtube clip and not about classes.nothing wrong to talk about classes, this is what this site is for. To exchange ideas, experiences, knowledge as well to promote CEs and other professional events.
you are very rude, and never again I would talk to you,
Poor Vlad, she'll be crushed I'm sure.
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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
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Christopher A. Moyer said:
Noel, I want to thank you. For the last couple days I've been considering dropping off this site for good, as it's felt like a total waste of my time. But something was holding me back. I held out some hope that there might still be people here capable of engaging in meaningful discussion. But now you've shown me the folly of my thinking, while also ignoring any and every point that I've made and managing to bore me all at the same time. You win.
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Hi Raven .
You said :My problem with the post is where you say that "body cells carry emotional memory", that this theory is "true", and that cells "bookmark" specific memory locations in the brain.
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“Body cells carry emotional memory”it is title of my article. The point is that not me “granted “ name to this theory . Honestly I even don't remember who did it 40 years ago back in Soviet Union but it is for sure someone from scientific community . My feeling that this name define this theory pretty well. But again not to me called it.
The following sentences is from my article: “I found the theory that body cells carry emotional memories to be a true one. During my 38 years of clinical experience, numerous times I have witnessed the emotional reactions of my patients/clients to soft tissue mobilization. “
As you can see it's include words like:” I found”that theory to be a true one. And I did come to this conclusions due to clinical observations.BTW. Not only me but many many others reporting the same phenomena.
At S. California I am having opportunity to present to MDs, chiropractors, physical therapists as well as to my fellow massage therapists. Always talking to consider storages of negative emotions within body . I always using “bookmarks” when explaining that by touching particular body part that bookmarking/ storing/related to this memories ect.. From my experience never no one confused” bookmarking” with pathogenesis of phenomenon but automatically assumed that this is metaphorical expression.
Even as we talking my feeling is that members who did read my article was not confused that “bookmarking” is a description of pathogenesis or something like this, therefore didn't thought that it will be important to mention metaphoric origin for bookmarking.
Raven.Using the opportunity would like to ask you advice. What word instead of “bookmarking”would you use describing parts of the body, that at the time you touching ,triggering emotional release. Up front thank you.
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You said :One of the first things we learn in anatomy class is the concept of levels of organization. So when you say "cells" carry, that means that memory is inside each cell. This cannot be true, because--as we all seem to agree--cells don't have the neural machinery to carry memory.”
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In my case it wasn't meant that this emotional memory is inside of each cell because I was clear about it in article .following is a statement from my article:
” It's reasonable to assume that the memory of the emotional experience is stored somewhere in the brain - the system that is specialized in memory handling and remained inaccessible, as many other memories a human being experiencing during the life. But the shoulder cells hold the bookmark or a memory address of where the actual memories of the incident were stored in the brain.”
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You said: If you had said "tissues" rather than "cells", and if you had said "feel like" or "act like" rather than "is true", we would have had no problem. But you did not make it clear that you were using a metaphor. The way you wrote it, it sounded like you said that cells literally contain memories.”
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The point is that this phenomenon is clinically evident but no one knows where this negative memory located. Tissue is composed by cells, including CNS composed by cells therefore even didn't thought to use tissues. But if your feeling that this should be clarified then our discussion did it.
A metaphor matter I already explained and in case if some body from readers was confused, our discussion is cleared it.
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You said :This is the part at which I get accused of "mere semantics", but on the contrary, this is very important to us and to massage, if we truly want to become a healthcare profession. People trust us if we use knowledge correctly, and we lose their trust if we don't.
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Here I a bit disagree with you. I believe we are healthcare profession. No doubt we have to be scientifically sound, but in case if some “working” theory cannot be explained scientifically, but if client will start crying by releasing emotions then we just have to tell them about this theory.
With no trying to explain something that we do not know and no one knows. Fair and professional. In regards of people trust: by laying on table they already trust us and only in case and if we will help them they will continue to trust us and will continue referring to us other people. The same with medical community.
But Raven please don't get me wrong. I do not dismiss importance of education and science but what we don't know we just don't know.BTW. After my post grad studies for three months I was forced to teach anatomy and physiology at grad school. Didn't like this job and really appreciate people like you who willing to teach this .
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You said .The state of massage education is such that many people don't get a good education in anatomy, nor in the humanities, so they often cannot tell when we are speaking metaphorically rather than literally. The same is true with our clients. Some can, and some can't, so we have to be very clear, to be inclusive of people, wherever they are. It's more responsibility than just practicing the art of massage, and maybe it's not what we want. But it is an obligation of a healthcare professional, and that is why I take it so seriously.
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In such a case our discussion clearing up a lot. Would like to thank you for opportunity to discuss very important issue of emotional memories storage in our body and necessity to release it as well to look for parts that reacting on touch by starting releasing it. This time I will avoid the bookmark word. Maybe you will advise on something more definitional for this phenomenon.
Look forward for further development of good and productive professional relationships between us.
Best wishes.
Boris
Ravensara Travillian said:
Thank you for the apology, Boris. I accept it.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Raven.
I was very happy to find your post this morning. If one behaving dishonestly this is dishonestly, when one decides to correct it, one is honest person and to me it means a lot because one have to overcome a lot of stuff to do it. You did it and I have huge respect to you for it and of course retracting my previous statement that you are dishonest .Thank you again. In my opinion your post containing important information for discussion that my hope will allow to students and practitioners to learn some useful stuff because phenomenon of negative emotional storages is real and we have to be aware about.
I am at Los Angeles and now is 7:35 AM over here. I have to run to my office. In the evening will reply to your post. Predicting we will have practical and professional discussion.
Have a great day.
Boris
Ravensara Travillian said:
Raven. During all this discussion ,you didn't offer no explanation, no opinion but posted that I am providing wrong information.constantly distract very important discussion.I mean you posted many many comments, including praising Christopher, and offering him to teach with you classes, but never either of you propose any opinion, including a "bookmarking" alternative definition. If you really practitioner, and loyal to our occupation, then you should answer.Maybe I'm really confusing what is honesty and what is dishonest.therefore let's put a site it for while, and I promise if you will finally answer on questions that I posted to you I will retract it.otherwise really shame on you for all this behavior. I mean ,it.shame on you. I think this is fair and honest proposal and one who is honest, will realize it , will put a site ego, pride and will correct all at once.
All right, I will do so, and then we will see if you really mean it.
My problem with the post is where you say that "body cells carry emotional memory", that this theory is "true", and that cells "bookmark" specific memory locations in the brain.
One of the first things we learn in anatomy class is the concept of levels of organization. So when you say "cells" carry, that means that memory is inside each cell. This cannot be true, because--as we all seem to agree--cells don't have the neural machinery to carry memory.
If you had said "tissues" rather than "cells", and if you had said "feel like" or "act like" rather than "is true", we would have had no problem. But you did not make it clear that you were using a metaphor. The way you wrote it, it sounded like you said that cells literally contain memories.
This is the part at which I get accused of "mere semantics", but on the contrary, this is very important to us and to massage, if we truly want to become a healthcare profession. People trust us if we use knowledge correctly, and we lose their trust if we don't.
The state of massage education is such that many people don't get a good education in anatomy, nor in the humanities, so they often cannot tell when we are speaking metaphorically rather than literally. The same is true with our clients. Some can, and some can't, so we have to be very clear, to be inclusive of people, wherever they are. It's more responsibility than just practicing the art of massage, and maybe it's not what we want. But it is an obligation of a healthcare professional, and that is why I take it so seriously.
On the "bookmark" thing, again, if you had said clearly "this is an analogy or a model to help you understand how something works, that in reality is much more complex and dynamic", we would have had no problem. But to state it as though that is the literal truth tells any healthcare professional or client who reads this site that massage sticks to an oversimplified and outdated version of neurobiology. If they think we really believe it literally, it reduces their trust in us. We can avoid a world of problems, and keep people's trust in us, if we make it clear when we are speaking literally and when we are using models or analogies or metaphors to communicate a point.
Those are the main problems I have with the post. I also have a problem with your name-calling when you lose your temper, and your sandbagging me for answering questions that other people ask me directly. "Dishonest" and "shame on you" is not appropriate professional dialogue, and correcting or refining facts is not an attack on you personally that you have to defend yourself against.
I have answered your questions; will you now retract your accusations of dishonesty?
Boris Prilutsky said:Raven. During all this discussion ,you didn't offer no explanation, no opinion but posted that I am providing wrong information.constantly distract very important discussion.I mean you posted many many comments, including praising Christopher, and offering him to teach with you classes, but never either of you propose any opinion, including a "bookmarking" alternative definition. If you really practitioner, and loyal to our occupation, then you should answer.Maybe I'm really confusing what is honesty and what is dishonest.therefore let's put a site it for while, and I promise if you will finally answer on questions that I posted to you I will retract it.otherwise really shame on you for all this behavior. I mean ,it.shame on you. I think this is fair and honest proposal and one who is honest, will realize it , will put a site ego, pride
and will correct all at once.
Ravensara Travillian said:This is the last time I will say this.
Until you retract your accusations of dishonesty, I will have nothing to do with you, no matter how many times you try to get me to engage with you.
Boris Prilutsky said:please answer the questions.
Boris Prilutsky said:Raven.Christopher's comment is below.
if I am wrong please correct me.I never comment, that phantom limb syndrome is a 'bookmarks”. In this case limb already do not exist. In my article I described a hands on mobilization of shoulder . When I talked(not in article in comment) about phantom syndrome I have stated that scientists also do not know exactly where this sensitization of pains are stored. Many different opinions on the subject. We just know that this phenomenon exists. In many cases science and especially in medical fields know much less than we are don't know. As well many phenomenons cannot be explained.
he also said: If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. “
I personally cannot recall that Christopher proposed/offered any explanation.how he can know about phantom pains?he is above this simple things .
PS. In regards of Gary W Addis I would recommend to take him very seriously because he is Smart and having analytic mind as well knowledge.
Christopher A. Moyer said: But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but
in basic ways.For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on.
Oh, dear. I'd really hate to degrade the quality of this discourse.
Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
You mean like, "don't be an ass"? That kind of polite?
Gary W Addis said:Ms Travillian, I go by your own words. A few weeks ago during an earlier generation of this thread you lectured me on useless details of the anatomy of the brain; you listed in detail your academic and professional accomplishments. Suitably unimpressed, I reminded all once again of your superior attitude.
Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on. Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.
Ravensara Travillian said:
Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.
What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.
No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.
"non-judgmental, open mind"--right. Excuse me while I cough up a hairball.
Gary W Addis said:
Christopher A. Moyer said:Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer
Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.
But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.
But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.
Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.
Christopher said:
"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."
In other words, your ego is involved.
"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."
You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.
Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.
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Well said, friend Boris.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Christopher.
I hope you will agree with me that the aging is unstoppable process. Yes I am not young anymore but thank God still strong and Happy man. Additional to all other extremely important gifts in my life such as my family, my friends, my hobbies, my happiness is fueled by my occupation that I love very much, and as much as possible for my case competent in it. Now let's talk about apricot Wolf.
Below is a link to this clip. When Michael Hinkle offer us this footage on energy work group I was amazed by what I have witnessed. We saw very sick animal who have demonstrated symptoms of very difficult neurological disease. After this lady hold this animal for a while we all witnessed significant improvement such as less degree of twisted neck, less forcible arch. My goodness. I was immediately excited so much and posted, that no doubt due to clinical outcome as well seeing no manipulation of soft tissue we all have witnessed some type of energy work. You immediately posted statement expressing skeptic view because this phenomenon impossible to explain. My reply to you was that there is no matter if we can explain it or not most important that wolf got better. As a clinician I know how difficult to reach results in this cases of Autoimmune diseases. You still resisted and somehow we did have converted discussion to vigorous argument. Honestly I do regret. If would know that you have nothing to do with clinical work in treatment room wouldn't discuss with you this case .BTW.Not wasting time and because I was so excited, I have comment on youtube that this is an amazing what I saw and because placebo here excluded no doubt in my mind that I saw some type of energy healing. Just happened that my comment on this youtube clip was the first one. Today more than 100 people placed similar to my comments . Looks like come out that your opinion was in minority. But this is not important. Important that Wolf got better. And here is no discussions or argument having place. As a real scientist even who cannot explain this phenomenon have to accept most important what science is about “Wolf got better.”
Fttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GC1Sw__ooE
in regard to research. I was trained, and practicing methods/protocols that where developed through extensive research including control group, and medical statistic applications. Most important that this protocols clinically proving as a working-delivering results. Approximately 8 years ago, I share my knowledge in management of hypertension with Prof.Gura. He was very skeptical, because hypertension pandemically affecting American population, causing strokes and heart attacks, costing a lot of money and suddenly some simple massage will make different?????? he stated that he is ready to believe that massage can help people who suffering from neck pains but from hypertension??? I have convinced him to allow me to select few people who suffering from neck pain as well from hypertension, and let's try to eliminate pain in the neck region. On this he agreed. When he saw how this treatment have affected hypertensive phenomenon, he immediately contacted his friend Prof. of medicine who consider to be internationally known expert in hypertension Research. When this professor saw data he also got skeptical and said this is placebo. I requested Amazon frock . When under sensors I performed 18 minutes of massage he wasn't anymore skeptical about the power of this treatment. Real scientist who started believing when saw clinical outcome. Was ready for large research, but we couldn't find money to sponsor it. Please click on link below to read preliminary report of this pilot studies . Any research in our fields have to lead to clinical outcomes. Please read article on this subject.
http://www.massageandbodywork.com/Articles/AugSep2003/Medicalmassag...
I know that Vlad can survive without talking to me. It just wrong to happen this way.
Christopher A. Moyer said:
meta-analysis combines the results of several studies that address a set of related research hypotheses.usually one doing it when planning to write research protocol.otherwise for different "purposes" meta-analysis and all statistic that coming from it,having no value.
Well, you certainly cleared that up. Iron-clad reasoning there.
you probably didn't born when I already participate in researches including being principal investigator
Right, you're old, we got it. 39 years experience.
definitely I do not speak for you, but hoping that for many.you said:"I'll be looking out for your class on Wolf Energy work when you advertise it on here." it does means that you even didn't bother to find out that in my post I talked about youtube clip and not about classes.nothing wrong to talk about classes, this is what this site is for. To exchange ideas, experiences, knowledge as well to promote CEs and other professional events.
you are very rude, and never again I would talk to you,
Poor Vlad, she'll be crushed I'm sure.
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Hi Gary.
I'm glad you did like my post.I hope you also saw my discussion with Raven. I believe we clarified all but most important some people probably learned from it.many times when I participate in discussions and even if some body else discussing different topics, personally I do learn. This site give us opportunity to do so.
Best wishesBoris
PS.did you knew Dennis Tinerino?
Gary W Addis said:
Well said, friend Boris.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Christopher.
I hope you will agree with me that the aging is unstoppable process. Yes I am not young anymore but thank God still strong and Happy man. Additional to all other extremely important gifts in my life such as my family, my friends, my hobbies, my happiness is fueled by my occupation that I love very much, and as much as possible for my case competent in it. Now let's talk about apricot Wolf.
Below is a link to this clip. When Michael Hinkle offer us this footage on energy work group I was amazed by what I have witnessed. We saw very sick animal who have demonstrated symptoms of very difficult neurological disease. After this lady hold this animal for a while we all witnessed significant improvement such as less degree of twisted neck, less forcible arch. My goodness. I was immediately excited so much and posted, that no doubt due to clinical outcome as well seeing no manipulation of soft tissue we all have witnessed some type of energy work. You immediately posted statement expressing skeptic view because this phenomenon impossible to explain. My reply to you was that there is no matter if we can explain it or not most important that wolf got better. As a clinician I know how difficult to reach results in this cases of Autoimmune diseases. You still resisted and somehow we did have converted discussion to vigorous argument. Honestly I do regret. If would know that you have nothing to do with clinical work in treatment room wouldn't discuss with you this case .BTW.Not wasting time and because I was so excited, I have comment on youtube that this is an amazing what I saw and because placebo here excluded no doubt in my mind that I saw some type of energy healing. Just happened that my comment on this youtube clip was the first one. Today more than 100 people placed similar to my comments . Looks like come out that your opinion was in minority. But this is not important. Important that Wolf got better. And here is no discussions or argument having place. As a real scientist even who cannot explain this phenomenon have to accept most important what science is about “Wolf got better.”
Fttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GC1Sw__ooE
in regard to research. I was trained, and practicing methods/protocols that where developed through extensive research including control group, and medical statistic applications. Most important that this protocols clinically proving as a working-delivering results. Approximately 8 years ago, I share my knowledge in management of hypertension with Prof.Gura. He was very skeptical, because hypertension pandemically affecting American population, causing strokes and heart attacks, costing a lot of money and suddenly some simple massage will make different?????? he stated that he is ready to believe that massage can help people who suffering from neck pains but from hypertension??? I have convinced him to allow me to select few people who suffering from neck pain as well from hypertension, and let's try to eliminate pain in the neck region. On this he agreed. When he saw how this treatment have affected hypertensive phenomenon, he immediately contacted his friend Prof. of medicine who consider to be internationally known expert in hypertension Research. When this professor saw data he also got skeptical and said this is placebo. I requested Amazon frock . When under sensors I performed 18 minutes of massage he wasn't anymore skeptical about the power of this treatment. Real scientist who started believing when saw clinical outcome. Was ready for large research, but we couldn't find money to sponsor it. Please click on link below to read preliminary report of this pilot studies . Any research in our fields have to lead to clinical outcomes. Please read article on this subject.
http://www.massageandbodywork.com/Articles/AugSep2003/Medicalmassag...
I know that Vlad can survive without talking to me. It just wrong to happen this way.
Christopher A. Moyer said:
meta-analysis combines the results of several studies that address a set of related research hypotheses.usually one doing it when planning to write research protocol.otherwise for different "purposes" meta-analysis and all statistic that coming from it,having no value.
Well, you certainly cleared that up. Iron-clad reasoning there.
you probably didn't born when I already participate in researches including being principal investigator
Right, you're old, we got it. 39 years experience.
definitely I do not speak for you, but hoping that for many.you said:"I'll be looking out for your class on Wolf Energy work when you advertise it on here." it does means that you even didn't bother to find out that in my post I talked about youtube clip and not about classes.nothing wrong to talk about classes, this is what this site is for. To exchange ideas, experiences, knowledge as well to promote CEs and other professional events.
you are very rude, and never again I would talk to you,
Poor Vlad, she'll be crushed I'm sure.
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