Relationships and Professional Boundaries With Clients?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Darcy Neibaur on January 29, 2010 at 10:09pm

WOW! What a mouthful that has been said. I had no trouble following the discussion. I enjoyed reading it actually. To me it all comes down to one word. COMPASSION. Some have it and some don't. I choose to have compassion with all my clients. It goes a very long way in my book.

I had no trouble following the discussion about Friends. To me it is all in the interpretation of the mind. Some minds are warpt and some minds are not. Thank you so much Kris for your healthy responses. I was listening to every word.

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on January 30, 2010 at 1:33am

So Darcy do you have clients who are friends? What do you think about massage therapists becoming friends with their clients? Do you understand the dynamics of the therapeutic relationship? Why do you think it all comes down to compassion? Is it compassion for your client and yourself?

What/who's interpretation of the mind? What are you referring too?

Do you understand the issues that come up when you do become friends with clients and how it is more about you than the client and that takes the focus off of the client?

Julie


Darcy Neibaur said:

WOW! What a mouthful that has been said. I had no trouble following the discussion. I enjoyed reading it actually. To me it all comes down to one word. COMPASSION. Some have it and some don't. I choose to have compassion with all my clients. It goes a very long way in my book.

I had no trouble following the discussion about Friends. To me it is all in the interpretation of the mind. Some minds are warpt and some minds are not. Thank you so much Kris for your healthy responses. I was listening to every word.

Permalink Reply by Darcy Neibaur on January 30, 2010 at 7:34am

Yes, I do have a few clients who are friends. Most of my clients though I would put in the category of acquaintances. My friends and I are able to separate the relationship. What goes on in the massage room stays in the massage room and is only discussed in the massage room. Everything else is outside the massage room. I have very healthy relationships with my firends and we do not take advantage of each other's friendships. No means no on what ever the subjuect may be and there is no pushing of the boundaries. No is a complete sentence in and of itself and does not require it be justified, analyzed, defended or explained. .

Yes, I feel compassion is a very important character trait for a massage therapist along with Empathy. Until we can truely feel our own feelings we will not be able to feel the feeings of others. So yes, compassion and empathy for ourselves as well as for others, I think and feel they are equal in this situation.

Now selfish and self centered, that is a whole another discussion. Part of me feels this dicussion has gone in that direction. Nothing wrong with being selfish. I am selfish in all areas of my life. Being Self centered though will kill the business. We need each other.

Interpretation of the mind, I am glad you are meditating upon it. Let me know what conclusions you come up with. You take things to personally Julie, and that tells me a lot about you.

Julie Onofrio said:

So Darcy do you have clients who are friends? What do you think about massage therapists becoming friends with their clients? Do you understand the dynamics of the therapeutic relationship? Why do you think it all comes down to compassion? Is it compassion for your client and yourself?

What/who's interpretation of the mind? What are you referring too?

Do you understand the issues that come up when you do become friends with clients and how it is more about you than the client and that takes the focus off of the client?

Julie


Darcy Neibaur said:

WOW! What a mouthful that has been said. I had no trouble following the discussion. I enjoyed reading it actually. To me it all comes down to one word. COMPASSION. Some have it and some don't. I choose to have compassion with all my clients. It goes a very long way in my book.

I had no trouble following the discussion about Friends. To me it is all in the interpretation of the mind. Some minds are warpt and some minds are not. Thank you so much Kris for your healthy responses. I was listening to every word.

and there is

Permalink Reply by Darcy Neibaur on January 30, 2010 at 7:52am

Also, am I teachable or not? Being teachable is very important to me. I truly enjoy the saying when the student is ready the teacher appears. Thank you Julie for teaching me some things during this discussion and reminding me that I have so much for which to be grateful.

Darcy Neibaur said:

Yes, I do have a few clients who are friends. Most of my clients though I would put in the category of acquaintances. My friends and I are able to separate the relationship. What goes on in the massage room stays in the massage room and is only discussed in the massage room. Everything else is outside the massage room. I have very healthy relationships with my firends and we do not take advantage of each other's friendships. No means no on what ever the subjuect may be and there is no pushing of the boundaries. No is a complete sentence in and of itself and does not require it be justified, analyzed, defended or explained. .

Yes, I feel compassion is a very important character trait for a massage therapist along with Empathy. Until we can truely feel our own feelings we will not be able to feel the feeings of others. So yes, compassion and empathy for ourselves as well as for others, I think and feel they are equal in this situation.

Now selfish and self centered, that is a whole another discussion. Part of me feels this dicussion has gone in that direction. Nothing wrong with being selfish. I am selfish in all areas of my life. Being Self centered though will kill the business. We need each other.

Interpretation of the mind, I am glad you are meditating upon it. Let me know what conclusions you come up with. You take things to personally Julie, and that tells me a lot about you.

Julie Onofrio said:

So Darcy do you have clients who are friends? What do you think about massage therapists becoming friends with their clients? Do you understand the dynamics of the therapeutic relationship? Why do you think it all comes down to compassion? Is it compassion for your client and yourself?

What/who's interpretation of the mind? What are you referring too?

Do you understand the issues that come up when you do become friends with clients and how it is more about you than the client and that takes the focus off of the client?

Julie


Darcy Neibaur said:

WOW! What a mouthful that has been said. I had no trouble following the discussion. I enjoyed reading it actually. To me it all comes down to one word. COMPASSION. Some have it and some don't. I choose to have compassion with all my clients. It goes a very long way in my book.

I had no trouble following the discussion about Friends. To me it is all in the interpretation of the mind. Some minds are warpt and some minds are not. Thank you so much Kris for your healthy responses. I was listening to every word.

and there is

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on January 30, 2010 at 11:23am

What do you think is selfish exactly? What does needing each other have to do with anything in a client/therapist relationship?

I am saying that the clearer and stronger my boundaries have become through the process of supervision and other things that the more successful my businesses have become. That isn't being selfish in any way at all. It is just knowing where others end and I begin - boundaries.

what do you think I am taking personally? I am just asking questions to clarify your meaning. And what does it tell you about me - thinking that I am taking it personally (and I am not) but if i was taking it personally?? I am just gathering info for my next series of articles.

I am not meditating on anything. I am asking for your clarification that is all. Mediation is clearing the mind of thoughts to me anyways.

Julie

Darcy Neibaur said:

Now selfish and self centered, that is a whole another discussion. Part of me feels this dicussion has gone in that direction. Nothing wrong with being selfish. I am selfish in all areas of my life. Being Self centered though will kill the business. We need each other.

Interpretation of the mind, I am glad you are meditating upon it. Let me know what conclusions you come up with. You take things to personally Julie, and that tells me a lot about you.

Julie Onofrio said:

and there is

Permalink Reply by Las Vegas Massage In Summerlin on January 30, 2010 at 12:05pm

~

Hey Julie!

First and foremost, if you'd like to begin a discussion on transference, please do so! This seems to be very important to you, so please begin a new thread and tell us all about it!

Second, I see no reason to reply to your questions due to the fact that we have a 'clash of the beliefs' here. Anything I say will be further dissected and moved further away from the original topic, attempting to seperate the fly s*** from the pepper, as some say, and I'll always be 'wrong' in your eyes on this topic. .....and that's OK, but that's not really what's going on here. That's covered below, in your 'posturing.'

I also see some sort of 'authority figure' here. This has gone from a discussion to an interrogation and lecture, by you.

Here's what you wrote:

"do you know..." (It's never a good conversation starter to begin with a put-down or an implication such as this.)

"you don't seem to have an understanding..." (More of a put-down, for your build up to.....)

"And me trying to explain it to you..." (Ah, and here it is! I'm stupid and you, the expert, need to teach me something!)

"And you didn't define..." (More sideswipes to bolster up your pov.)

"Have you ever experienced..." (Same. Not really looking for an answer, just more ammo to come back at me with.)

"I don't think you really get it..." (More, "I'm better than you, let me put you down, then tell you how smart I am.")

Now, it's only natural that since we're all peers here, this posturing is going to occur.

It occurs in all walks of life, whenever two or more people get together. Someone's always going to be better than the other.

What's also interesting is the ammo each of us use.

"I've been in this businesss over twenty years." "I've attended so-and-so's advanced class." "I've read these fourteen dozen books on this or that so I'm the resident expert."

Once again Julie, please begin a discussion on transference. I'd be more than happy to answer in that thread. I've my own experiences, as well as a dozen years in the martial arts, or more specifically, Ki Aikido.

Aikido is a grappling art and there's a great deal of transference that occurs. I can also relate this to massage and Aikido at the same time ;) It's quite interesting and not so different.

I see that you're back on topic with Darcy and I thank you for that.

Now, how to end this on a positive note so we learn something? (Since we're already off track on topic.)

Let's take a look at Julie's reply and learn from it for our clients or whomever we need to communicate with. Now keep in mind that we have replied to each other, back and forth, several times. So, the introductions have fallen by the wayside. That's OK in relationships, once you've built them.

Julie: So what is the therapeutic relationship to you - do you know what it is and how it works and what transference is? I am just asking because you don't seem to have an understanding of it which is why I recommended those books.

Kris: Now, read this above outloud, as if it's directed to you. Can you just feel it? Would you ever tell a client this? (I hope not.) Right out of the gate, a direct question, then an implication that I don't know 'how it works,' then an implication that I don't understand it, then a telling to me of 'why' the books were recommended (by her of course) which show the authority figure.

If this were directed to you, how would this make you feel? If you directed a comment like this to a client, what would their re-action be? Most likely not very positive.

Let's move along...

Julie: And me trying to explain it to you here isn't working because you having clients as friends is working for you. What guidelines do you use with these clients who are friends? How do you keep your massage separate from being friends?
And you didn't define friends clearly for yourself. You said you do have boundaries in place. What boundaries?

Kris: The boom is just lowered here...chuckles. "And me trying to explain it to you!" Talk about subconsciousness and transference ;) Can you imagine telling this to a client? Well, that's not really true. It's in how you do it, not what you say. Then comes the barrage of questions that are not seeking an answer, but for more 'words' to hold on to for another battery of comments. Hey, I've played this game. I know it well.

Moving along...

Julie: Have you ever experienced transference yourself with a massage therapist or other health care provider? I don't think you really get it until you have. It is actually in the transference that heals and having boundaries is what allows it to happen when someone is transferring.

Kris: More meaningless questions and subtle put-downs. "I don't think," once again implying that she's the authority figure, "you really get it," implying I've not experienced this. Then more comments and opinions as if they are truth.

Oh, and I'm certainly not immune to this. I do it all the time! We just need to practice.

It's interesting how this opportunity presented itself. Described above in this example is EXACTLY what's covered in my e-book. Well, kind of the opposite of the example above. ;) How do we communicate online? We only have words. We need to use them wisely.

I can't see Julie's face when she wrote this. I can't hear the tone of her voice. I can't see her body language. All I got were words, and my perception of those words were not very pleasant.

...and you know what?

It doesn't even matter what Julie (or anyone else's) intent was behind the words. It's how the receiver perceives them! Perception is reality! That's why we have to be so careful. (If you want to become successful.)

Ah well, Life is good.

Let me be quiet now ;)

Kris

Permalink Reply by Las Vegas Massage In Summerlin on January 30, 2010 at 12:17pm

~

Ah, OK.

Now I understand:

Julie: I am just gathering info for my next series of articles.

Kris: Similiar to your comments in regards to social media and how it's a 'waste of time,' (your words,) yet within an hour after me sending my e-book to you for review, you created a blog post (on your own site) on how to use Facebook to attract clients. Coincidence? No way. You list how to attract clients in the same exact manner as I did in the e-book.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth sends mixed messages........but hey, that's just me. (As well as 'borrowing' other peoples information just isn't right.)

Kris

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on January 30, 2010 at 1:25pm

Kris

Ok Kris - I think you are taking this all wrong. As I said somewhere - it isn't right or wrong to become friends with clients but there are influences that occur in your massage. You didn't have any idea what the power differential is which is the basis for the whole therapeutic relationship and the related dynamics. I thought you wanted to know since your first post said "I’d really like your opinions on this, because somewhere it seems I missed the boat ;) "

I had written about using facebook on my other site before you sent me your ebook as I had just been learning about how to use if from Woody over on Facebook...see post on using facebook on my blog page
http://www.massage-career-guides.com/Massage-Career-Guides-blog.html It was Jan 2nd. I had spent most of the holiday week talking to woody to learn how to use facebook. You sent me your ebook on Jan 9th....

Because of this whole conversation I am learning what people don't really get about the therapeutic relationship and yes will be writing about it to hopefully have more discussions on it and share more with each other on it all...

As I said in my first post here - your first post is really talking about many different things and you are asking some good questions that all could really be separate discussions.
Kris: Are ‘Professional Boundaries’ hurting your massage business?

Julie :No the more I create boundaries which are just rules and policies the stronger my business becomes.

K: What is your mindset in regards to your beliefs about boundaries and relationships? What were you taught (or are teaching) from massage school that makes absolutely no sense??

J: I wasn't taught anything about boundaries in massage school 22 years ago.. I only had 250 hours of initial training. but I have been studying boundaries for the last 12 years intensively because I burned out from doing things like having clients as friends and other things. I am working on a book on boundaries for MT and teach them in supervision with massage therapists.

K:When a client speaks to you, do you quickly review their comments in your mind and determine the appropriate response? Or, do you just automatically tune them out because you assume they are being inappropriate?
J: I have never had anyone wink or nod at me... I still am not sure what you are referring to.

K Where do YOU draw the line? Where’s the line and how did you determine (the line) between a professional relationship and crossing a professional boundary?

J: It evaluate every circumstance very carefully and consult my supervisor and peer group and constantly look at situations when I do become friends with clients because I do much better work when there aren't any dual relationships going on. When I work with massage therapists as their supervisor though I try to educate them as to the various things that happen in the therapeutic relationship and also in my writings because it is one of the least understood things in the profession. They have to draw their own line and the line will also change as they get more awareness of how the therapeutic relationship works.

Julie to Kris -
I am just trying to challenge you to think about what you are doing with a full understanding of the therapeutic process. In your other post you asked how I would feel if someone said those things to me - I would be curious to know more about what they are talking about because as you said in your first post ' because somewhere it seems I missed the boat ;)"

What you are doing is not right or wrong as I said before. But you don't seem to want to know more about the therapeutic relationship but that's ok too. It is what it is and thats all.

It is not my intention to create any bad feelings with you Kris. I respect your openess and honesty and your work in the profession.

Julie


Kris Kelley said:

~
Ah, OK.
Now I understand:

Julie: I am just gathering info for my next series of articles.

Kris: Similiar to your comments in regards to social media and how it's a 'waste of time,' (your words,) yet within an hour after me sending my e-book to you for review, you created a blog post (on your own site) on how to use Facebook to attract clients. Coincidence? No way. You list how to attract clients in the same exact manner as I did in the e-book.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth sends mixed messages........but hey, that's just me. (As well as 'borrowing' other peoples information just isn't right.)

Kris

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on January 30, 2010 at 1:53pm

Actually it is more that this discussion is inspiring my next pages on my website on transference etc. I was not engaging in the discussion just so I could write an article - just to clarify. and I will start a few other discussions on this because it is one of the most important discussions we could ever have as a profession.

Thanks Kris for starting this.

Julie

Permalink Reply by Las Vegas Massage In Summerlin on January 30, 2010 at 2:58pm

~

What a beautiful day today! Just took a long walk and it's beautiful outside! My heart goes out to those back east stuck in the snow. Do what you can ;) I know I am....must be 60 degrees here!

Now where was I??



Julie: …but there are influences that occur in your massage.

Kris: Of course there are, but right here you’ve missed the boat on the point I was attempting to make. It’s obviously my bad if in the initial post I missed the mark on what I was attempting to convey, yet I’ve stated over and over (after the initial post) that this is above and beyond, “The Massage Session.” I’m talking attracting clients. I’m talking building and developing relationships so our clients don’t abandon us. If we’ve got the client on the table, half the battle is already won!

What about the energy transferred prior to the massage session? What about after the massage session? For me, this is about building and developing relationships. Once again I’ll state that as an ‘outcall’ massage therapist, this is what I do. If you own a spa, or your own massage service where clients come to you, it may be different. I don’t know. I’ve never worked for anyone else. But I did complete all my massage school clinic work in this type of setting. Guess what? I still built relationships in the limited time I had between the ‘factory line’ of clients. How did I do that? Ask them to be my friend or go out to lunch with me? No. I was open and honest; a nice person that listened to their concerns.

Julie: You didn't have any idea what the power differential is…

Kris: Once again, an assumption and not the way to begin a conversation...ugh. Re-read my previous post, please!

Julie: which is the basis for the whole therapeutic relationship and the related dynamics. I thought you wanted to know since your first post said "I’d really like your opinions on this, because somewhere it seems I missed the boat ;) "

Kris: My bad. To clarify, I’m missing the boat on the groupthink or doublethink. I believe that’s the term used in George Orwell’s book, 1984. Are you (or anyone) familiar with it? If not, it’s an excellent read and quite mind opening. Apply it to our industry or anything else in life ;)

Julie: I had written about using facebook….

Kris: I don’t know what you’re doing or when you’re doing it, other than when you posted to Facebook your blog on attracting clients. This was less than an hour after I sent you my e-book. No biggie, as the main point was missed, just as it’s been missed in these discussions. I’ve scanned the ‘net for how to use Facebook to attract clients, and nothing compares. Everything I’ve seen is sterile, focusing on the semantics of the applications. Not the case with what I’ve written. It’s nothing special, either. It’s just been put to words.

Julie: Because of this whole conversation I am learning what people don't really get about the therapeutic relationship….

Kris: Yea, all us dummies. Read previous paragraphs and previous posts.

Julie: and yes will be writing about it to hopefully have more discussions on it and share more with each other on it all...

Kris: Then why don’t you just write? If you have 22 years of experience, and based on your previous comments, you seem quite well versed on the topic. What are you waiting for?? I have an inkling of what it is, of what’s holding you back, but I’ll keep my fingers to myself, for now.

Julie :No the more I create boundaries which are just rules and policies the stronger my business becomes.

Kris: Good for you. I’ve taken the opposite approach. I’m becoming more open, not closed and bogged down with self-perceived ‘boundaries’ and ‘rules.’ Bleh….But hey, if it works for you…

K: What is your mindset in regards to your beliefs about boundaries and relationships? What were you taught (or are teaching) from massage school that makes absolutely no sense??

J: I wasn't taught anything about boundaries in massage school 22 years ago.. I only had 250 hours of initial training. but I have been studying boundaries for the last 12 years intensively because I burned out from doing things like having clients as friends and other things. I am working on a book on boundaries for MT and teach them in supervision with massage therapists.

Kris: Cool. Good time to plug your book. Lay it on us! If so, will you be open to discussion on this? This would be good to discuss this prior to any release. Why? From the comments I’m receiving in private, those that don’t wish to jump into this discussion, the book may not sell as well as anticipated. Just a thought….



Julie to Kris -
I am just trying to challenge you to think about what you are doing with a full understanding of the therapeutic process.

Kris to Julie –

Ok, not a problem. Let me challenge you. You say the full understanding of the therapeutic process. From your previous comments, there’s nothing ‘full’ in what you are saying. It’s an immature statement. It’s not bad, just not mature. That’s OK though, I doubt my comments are mature, either ;)

You state, or at least what I’m interpreting, it’s all about that one little hour or two in actual massage. I’m saying that the ‘full understanding’ begins way before the actual session.

Julie: What you are doing is not right or wrong as I said before. But you don't seem to want to know more about the therapeutic relationship but that's ok too. It is what it is and thats all.

Kris: An assumption and redundant ;)

Have a great day!

Kris

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on January 30, 2010 at 3:17pm

Clients don't abandon us - they go on to other things or don't like our work or whatever.

Attracting clients starts with knowing who your ideal client is and having the boundaries set up to make decisions that are in alignment with your boundaries. You don't need to take every client that calls and shouldn't really if they are not your ideal client.

You said yourself in a previous post here that you didn't know what it meant so that is all I had to go on.

yes I posted on facebook and refered to my previous page so you could go to the post and use the sbi method of providing content and put a link to your site to sell your book and we could also maybe get other peoples ideas on how they are using it.

I have already written on it extensively on my blog and website and have posted a few links here in previous posts. What do you think I am waiting for - to see what you say on it so I can copy you? Oh boy! or please tell me what if I have got that wrong too. I just want to keep writing it better to challenge people to start thinking. I also had a lot written on my sbi site that I sold in 2008 and haven't had time to put it all on my new site.

http://thebodyworker.com/massage_blog/transference-for-massage-ther...
http://thebodyworker.com/psychology_for_massage_therapists.htm
http://thebodyworker.com/ethics.htm
http://thebodyworker.com/massage_blog/category/massage-school-notes...
http://thebodyworker.com/massage_blog/category/6-the-wealthy-massag...

yes it is all about building relationships. I wonder if you think you have to be friends with clients so that they don't abandon you as you said in the beg. of your last post.


yes what a beautiful day.... I am waiting to hear from my mom back east if my dad has 4 months to live or a few years. It really does make you think about what you want to be doing...

Julie


Kris Kelley said:

~

Permalink Reply by Las Vegas Massage In Summerlin on January 30, 2010 at 5:08pm

~

Julie: yes it is all about building relationships. I wonder if you think you have to be friends with clients so that they don't abandon you as you said in the beg. of your last post.

Kris: No, nothing 'has' to be this way or that way. I thought I mentioned this somewhere, in my mess of words ;) I'm at a loss for words right now in making the distinction between a 'built relationship' and a 'friend.' Oh well, no worries.

Julie: yes what a beautiful day.... I am waiting to hear from my mom back east if my dad has 4 months to live or a few years. It really does make you think about what you want to be doing...

Kris: Best wishes to you and your family!

Living life and death are huge topics for me. I'm unsure if this group is the place for 'm.

My quote from yesterdays FB: If you knew you were going to die tomorrow, what would you do today? And why the hell aren't you doing it??

This discussion reminds me of an older post. Think I'll post it, entitled, The One.

http://www.massageprofessionals.com/group/massagemarketingsolutions...

Enjoy your evening!

Kris

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