Relationships and Professional Boundaries With Clients?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Darcy Neibaur on January 30, 2010 at 11:50pm

I am choosing not to respond at this point Julie. Have a great night.

Julie Onofrio said:

What do you think is selfish exactly? What does needing each other have to do with anything in a client/therapist relationship?

I am saying that the clearer and stronger my boundaries have become through the process of supervision and other things that the more successful my businesses have become. That isn't being selfish in any way at all. It is just knowing where others end and I begin - boundaries.

what do you think I am taking personally? I am just asking questions to clarify your meaning. And what does it tell you about me - thinking that I am taking it personally (and I am not) but if i was taking it personally?? I am just gathering info for my next series of articles.

I am not meditating on anything. I am asking for your clarification that is all. Mediation is clearing the mind of thoughts to me anyways.

Julie

Darcy Neibaur said:

Now selfish and self centered, that is a whole another discussion. Part of me feels this dicussion has gone in that direction. Nothing wrong with being selfish. I am selfish in all areas of my life. Being Self centered though will kill the business. We need each other.

Interpretation of the mind, I am glad you are meditating upon it. Let me know what conclusions you come up with. You take things to personally Julie, and that tells me a lot about you.

Julie Onofrio said:

and there is

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on January 31, 2010 at 1:36am

Thanks for dropping in on the discussion though!

I actually do wish you would reply and clarify your comments or you can email me privately if you wish. I just love learning about myself and others through discussions like this.

Julie

Darcy Neibaur said:

I am choosing not to respond at this point Julie. Have a great night.

Julie Onofrio said:

Permalink Reply by Darcy Neibaur on January 31, 2010 at 10:19am

No private emails from this girl. I like having choices and I truly enjoy exercising those choices today. Not responding to your questions. It is pointless.

Julie Onofrio said:

Thanks for dropping in on the discussion though!

I actually do wish you would reply and clarify your comments or you can email me privately if you wish. I just love learning about myself and others through discussions like this.

Julie

Darcy Neibaur said:

I am choosing not to respond at this point Julie. Have a great night.

Julie Onofrio said:

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on January 31, 2010 at 11:13am

Sorry you feel that way...it is just a discussion and without your clarifying your posts it is also meaningless.

Thanks though for your participation.

Julie

Darcy Neibaur said:

No private emails from this girl. I like having choices and I truly enjoy exercising those choices today. Not responding to your questions. It is pointless.

Julie Onofrio said:

Thanks for dropping in on the discussion though!

I actually do wish you would reply and clarify your comments or you can email me privately if you wish. I just love learning about myself and others through discussions like this.

Julie

Darcy Neibaur said:

I am choosing not to respond at this point Julie. Have a great night.

Julie Onofrio said:

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on January 31, 2010 at 11:47am

Hi Kris,
So going back through this long and crazy thread of discussion I can see that part of the problem for me was that I interpreted your comment

"I’d really like your opinions on this, because somewhere it seems I missed the boat ;)" as to your wanting my opinion on dual relationships - becoming friends with clients - which is frowned upon if you are to keep the relationship professional and preserve the therapeutic relationship.

You didn't (and still haven't) described what boundaries you do create to protect the therapeutic relationship and the business relationship but you have found what works for you and that is all that really matters. From a few comments you do have boundaries in place and that is what works for you.

When I made my first post here I said that you were all over the place with topics of discussion and I still think it is unclear what you are really asking here....

Your first statement might be where to start - how are professional boundaries hurting your massage business.

My answer would be is that it is quite the opposite. The more I create boundaries around my values and needs, the more integrity I create between my values and actions which is all what boundaries are really. Yes that makes it about me but I can't be present for another in the massage room if I don't take care of my needs. I already burned out once in the mid 90's and that is when I started my sites. It was from not having boundaries that supported my values. Boundaries are not barriers. Boundaries help my business run smoother and better. Because our work is so personal it has the potential to bring up deep unconscious emotional patterns in clients - transference. Having boundaries is actually the way to deal with transference (which happens in all relationships really.) There is a power differential that happens especially in mt/client relationships. The word power is really describing the perceived relationship by the client. Clients from the minute they think that they might get a massage are looking for someone to help them with whatever problem they are having. Helping relationships have a way of triggering the old patterns from childhood which is why there is a need for boundaries when it happens. Boundaries help keep the focus on the client which is what the therapeutic relationship is all about.

You are apparently doing that in whatever ways when you are becoming friends with your clients or it wouldn't be working for you. Again by your comment about thinking you missed the boat made me think that it wasn't working for you and you wanted others opinions on how to handle it.

This is a really good topic of discussion for our profession. I am going to try to create threads to get others input and experiences as this is very interesting to me and is really the heart of a massage business.

So I am still not sure if there is something more you are wondering about as your first post is still not totally clear to me. Do you think more people should become friends with clients?

Thanks
Julie

Permalink Reply by Angela Palmier on January 31, 2010 at 1:09pm

Hi everyone,
It never ceases to amaze me how a discussion regarding boundaries incites some real emotion. That's the ironic part though...boundaries are self-determined. Sometimes they're situational meaning that they are no hard and fast rules---and then there are times when either determined by an organization, religion, etc., they are supposedly fixed and no room for interpretation. Bear in mind that as I post a response to Kris' excellent questions----I'm doing so from MY professional determination of boundaries---not meant to impose on anyone else's set of boundaries.

1. When do our boundaries come into play with the relationships we have built with our massage clients?
for me, they are constant. I first determine whether or not the person is a candidate that I want to work with as opposed to have to work with. I determine what those standards are---even if it is a difficult client, that an opportunity for learning may be available, so I decide who, when , where, how and why I chose to work with someone---and then proceed from there. If I do not chose to work with them, I tell them why---same goes for if I do chose to work with them.

2. What guidelines do I follow or teach?
Respect for myself first, my profession second, and my client third......meaning that if I'm not comfortable working with someone, but become inclined to because of financial reasons---I know this is an indicator of a bad relationship-they're out; Profession----I would never consider walking up to my dentist in a restaurant, ask him to inspect my newly developed abscess right then and there on the spot, nor would I give or receive a massage, shoulder rub, etc., outside the confines of a treatment room---it's not just my professional image I'm tarnishing, it's every other massage therapists as well; Client: If I really don't want to work with a client, that will come across whether they're on a treatment table or in a board room. They will not get the best from me, so I do not want to take their money, time---or waste mine for that matter.

3. What is your mindset in regards to your beliefs about boundaries and relationships? Simply put, they are largely situational. Particularly in an industry setting, we tend to create our "family"...those who support us, those who are most like us, those who challenge us less, or more---and settle in. There are benefits and drawbacks to this and the trick is to determine who will be a part of your immediate family, extended family, or ousted family---related to, but embarrassed to bring home to meet my mother. If I have a professional/client relationship with someone, there is no room for personal relationships. One of the people who helped shape my belief system before we had ever met was Benny Vaughn. If you don't know who he is, shame on you! Early on in our professional relationship, we were discussing teacher/student relationships....he stated "You must be friendly, but not their friend" and that is posted on my bulletin board. My job as a teacher, and as a therapist for that matter was to remain objective, remove personal feelings aside and focus on the reason for the interaction. Students were not enrolling in my school to become Angie's friend. They enrolled to get the tools, education and direction to be successful in their field. Sometimes that was difficult, but it was necessary for their success as a student, and for mine as an educator.

I do find that some people feel view this as off-putting, arrogant, entitled, etc., however I do think that overall it has removed the "toxic" people from my life, brought people into my life that were very helpful and supportive, and most of all, created the platform that I would never, never, ever, have to compromise my ethics, integrity or character for any person, organization, client, etc. If I never had another client because of this, I would simply chose another path----luckily, that has not been the case.

Permalink Reply by Las Vegas Massage In Summerlin on January 31, 2010 at 1:27pm

Hi Jules! Still on about this? Cool, I’ll play….


Hi Kris,
So going back through this long and crazy thread of discussion I can see that part of the problem for me was that I interpreted your comment

"I’d really like your opinions on this, because somewhere it seems I missed the boat ;)" as to your wanting my opinion on dual relationships - becoming friends with clients - which is frowned upon if you are to keep the relationship professional and preserve the therapeutic relationship.

Kris: I’m saying I missed the boat due to the fact that I’m not part of the consensus. I made the assumption that most tend to think similar to what you describe, yet in feedback I’ve received that doesn’t seem to be the case.

As to what is frowned upon or not, oh well. I’m not looking for a consensus or agreement, I’m looking for discussion on what works for each individual. I’d venture a guess that many of my marketing tactics are ‘frowned upon’ as well, but guess what? They have produced tremendous results. I work with results, not theory.

The thin line between visions and fantasies is painted by the stroke of accomplishments.

Julie: You didn't (and still haven't) described what boundaries you do create to protect the therapeutic relationship and the business relationship but you have found what works for you and that is all that really matters. From a few comments you do have boundaries in place and that is what works for you.

Kris: You haven’t answered any of my questions either, but as I’m the topic starter I’ll lead it off. Then, do me a favor and answer my questions.

My boundaries? Not many. I suppose if during the massage session a client reaches around and slaps me on the a** and calls me Sally, that’s crossing the line.

I meet people with an open mind. Not all this pre-conceived rubbish of what’s right or what’s wrong. I know myself and what I can handle. If I’m having a pre-massage meeting with a prospective client and we share all the same beliefs and s/he may (on the surface) show all the signs of the perfect client, yet give off bad vibes to me, we’re not going to enter into a therapeutic relationship. How do I know what bad vibes are? I don’t know. It’s that inner voice. Some just emit bad juju. Or, they may just be having a bad day. I’m open and usually give them the opportunity to work with me. Trick me once, your bad. Trick me twice, my bad. Or something like that ;)

Julie: When I made my first post here I said that you were all over the place with topics of discussion and I still think it is unclear what you are really asking here....

Kris: But yet you go on and reply. Guess it wasn’t that ‘all over the place.’ ;)

Julie: Your first statement might be where to start - how are professional boundaries hurting your massage business.

Kris: Yup. That would be the gist of it.

Julie: My answer would be is that it is quite the opposite. The more I create boundaries around my values and needs, the more integrity I create between my values and actions which is all what boundaries are really.

Kris: OK. It works for you. I like that you use the word integrity, but I’m unsure how having integrity changes into to creating boundaries.

Integrity means being true to oneself.

We can understand this concept if we realize that from its root the word `integrity' means to be integral, to be whole. Of necessity, the social and emotional strains on a person at any given time tend to fractionalize their personality in order to meet the various demands placed upon them. The key to integrity therefore consists of removing any thoughts, emotions, behaviors, or associations that cause a fractioning of the self. (An opening and honest look at the self, not a creation of barriers to others.)

Thus, being integral, in the sense of being whole with oneself, is an exceedingly difficult task as we consider all of the consequences and ramifications of our behavior, yet at the same time it is essential in becoming an individual as opposed to a separate entity who merely acts out the thoughts and behaviors imposed upon him by socialization.

Discover and create the wholeness in your life; then do nothing that does not contribute to the whole. That is the true way to mastery.

I see this as an opening, an acceptance of ‘the self.’ Not a closing of the mind due to fear. If I’m open and clear, anyone that doesn’t contribute to this wholeness will be bypassed as a non-issue.

Julie: Yes that makes it about me but I can't be present for another in the massage room if I don't take care of my needs. I already burned out once in the mid 90's and that is when I started my sites. It was from not having boundaries that supported my values. Boundaries are not barriers. Boundaries help my business run smoother and better.

Kris: Perhaps it’s all these ‘rules’ you have, juggling them up in the air and attempting to keep them all straight in your mind that caused the burnout? Attempting to ‘conform’ everyone to what you want as opposed to just accepting the clients and the Universe for what it is?

Julie: Because our work is so personal it has the potential to bring up deep unconscious emotional patterns in clients - transference. Having boundaries is actually the way to deal with transference (which happens in all relationships really.)

Kris: Ok. Here’s one of my previous questions that went unanswered. What about the energy transference that occurs prior to the massage? Or do you not interact with clients in any form prior to the massage? I’ve already previously stated what I do and why I do it.

Yes, having boundaries is one way of dealing with transference. Being open and honest and accepting (of ourselves and what another says) works as well. I see ‘boundaries’ as a defense mechanism. We all have them. How far are we taking them is the question. Do you let your boundaries flow naturally, or do you have some pre-conceived notion you must live up to??

Life is all about obstruction and flow. Are we going with the flow or setting ourselves up for failure with self imposed obstructions?

If a client has bad juju, let it flow in one end of the empty vessel (ourselves) and out the other. No attachment, no clinging. Be a conduit of the Spirit.

Julie: There is a power differential that happens especially in mt/client relationships. The word power is really describing the perceived relationship by the client. Clients from the minute they think that they might get a massage are looking for someone to help them with whatever problem they are having.

Kris: Aha! You mention, “from the minute they think they might get a massage.” Now you are talking! The relationship prior to the actual massage!

I’m not going to write another fourteen pages on the definition of power, but how you use it above is an interesting one. I’ll get not into that at this time.

Julie: Helping relationships have a way of triggering the old patterns from childhood which is why there is a need for boundaries when it happens. Boundaries help keep the focus on the client which is what the therapeutic relationship is all about.

Kris: Ok. Again, what I’m reading here is all about the massage session, and I’m looking at the larger picture.

Julie: You are apparently doing that in whatever ways when you are becoming friends with your clients or it wouldn't be working for you. Again by your comment about thinking you missed the boat made me think that it wasn't working for you and you wanted others opinions on how to handle it.

Kris: Apparently, yes ;) I missed the consensus boat, that’s all. Now that I’ve seen other comments, it seems my assumption was incorrect. I’m looking for conversation on what works for each individual.

Julie: This is a really good topic of discussion for our profession. I am going to try to create threads to get others input and experiences as this is very interesting to me and is really the heart of a massage business.

Kris: It’s important, agreed.

Julie: So I am still not sure if there is something more you are wondering about as your first post is still not totally clear to me. Do you think more people should become friends with clients?

Kris: Chuckles. You keep saying you are not clear, yet continue to write pages. ;)

As to what I ‘think’ others should do, that’s a dicey one. Just from the conversation between the two of us it’s un-clear as to what constitutes a ‘friend.’

Perhaps the point I’m making is that each and every one of us need to evaluate what we’re REALLY doing.

Evaluate your current business. How’s that working out for you?

What is your relationship with your clients? How’s that working out for you?

How are you defining ‘professional boundaries?’ How’s that being applied to your client relationship?

Do you listen to your inner voice? Is the prospective client you are talking to over the in-take for have all the right answers, yet their presence makes your skill crawl?

Are you pre-judging your clients based on your morals, values and beliefs? If so, is this assisting your business or is it chasing clients away?

Do you have integrity? Are you true to yourself? Are you self confident in your communication skills and truly listen without an agenda to what a prospective client is really saying to you?

Thanks
Julie

Most welcome.

Kris

Permalink Reply by Las Vegas Massage In Summerlin on January 31, 2010 at 1:55pm

Thanks Angela for your thoughtful reply on this topic.

Love your writing style as well!

Kris

Permalink Reply by Julie Onofrio on January 31, 2010 at 3:03pm

Kris Kelley said:

Hi Jules! Still on about this? Cool, I’ll play….



Kris: But yet you go on and reply. Guess it wasn’t that ‘all over the place.’ ;)

Julie: I am going on to try to see if you can clarify what you mean...


Kris: OK. It works for you. I like that you use the word integrity, but I’m unsure how having integrity changes into to creating boundaries.

Julie: Boundaries are how you support your values and create integrity. Yes integrity means being true to yourself but everyone also has a false self that is created as a defense to deal with life and get on with it that is really unconscious. As we become more conscious we can see that our values change and we create new boundaries to support our values.



Kris: Perhaps it’s all these ‘rules’ you have, juggling them up in the air and attempting to keep them all straight in your mind that caused the burnout? Attempting to ‘conform’ everyone to what you want as opposed to just accepting the clients and the Universe for what it is?

Julie: Before I had no or little boundaries. I took everyone as my client even if they were draining clients and not what I now know to be my ideal client. I gave people discounts, didn't make people pay for missed appointments, thought I was supposed to work on everyone who called, was a 'people pleaser' thinking it would keep clients around, didn't raise my rates often enough, thought that having low rates would keep people around, thought I had to keep clients around...and many more things. The more I created boundaries around these and many other things the more successful I became. I don't have to take every client the so called universe sends.




Kris: Ok. Here’s one of my previous questions that went unanswered. What about the energy transference that occurs prior to the massage? Or do you not interact with clients in any form prior to the massage? I’ve already previously stated what I do and why I do it.

Julie : Yes the transference and power differential begin from the moment someone thinks about calling.


Kris:Yes, having boundaries is one way of dealing with transference. Being open and honest and accepting (of ourselves and what another says) works as well. I see ‘boundaries’ as a defense mechanism. We all have them. How far are we taking them is the question. Do you let your boundaries flow naturally, or do you have some pre-conceived notion you must live up to??

Julie: That is a common confusion around boundaries. Boundaries just tell you where you start and another person begins. If you don't have boundaries you have defense mechanisms and yes we do all have them.



Julie: There is a power differential that happens especially in mt/client relationships. The word power is really describing the perceived relationship by the client. Clients from the minute they think that they might get a massage are looking for someone to help them with whatever problem they are having.

Kris: Aha! You mention, “from the minute they think they might get a massage.” Now you are talking! The relationship prior to the actual massage!

I’m not going to write another fourteen pages on the definition of power, but how you use it above is an interesting one. I’ll get not into that at this time.

Julie: I am just using the term "Power differential" because that is the technical term for one of the components of the therapeutic relationship. People think the mt knows what they are doing and knows more than them. That is the power differential. The client looks up to the MT and also because the client is naked and laying down while the therapist is upright it adds to it as well.


Kris: Ok. Again, what I’m reading here is all about the massage session, and I’m looking at the larger picture.

Kris: Chuckles. You keep saying you are not clear, yet continue to write pages. ;)


Julie : Yes to try to see where you are coming from on this and tell you what I think so you can know where I am on this.
It is just discussion.

Kris:As to what I ‘think’ others should do, that’s a dicey one. Just from the conversation between the two of us it’s un-clear as to what constitutes a ‘friend.’

Julie: Yes there are many levels of friends, many levels and kinds of boundaries. That is why it is confusing to me to want to talk about it all in one thread.

Kris: Are you pre-judging your clients based on your morals, values and beliefs? If so, is this assisting your business or is it chasing clients away?

Julie: I don't want to work on every client who calls me. I am not pre-judging anyone but using my values and beliefs as my guidelines for accepting clients. I do mainly deep tissue and triggerpoint work. I don't want a client who is looking for craniosacral work.

Kris: Do you have integrity? Are you true to yourself? Are you self confident in your communication skills and truly listen without an agenda to what a prospective client is really saying to you?

Julie: As my boundaries have become clearer through the years, most of my work on the massage table is just listening with hands, eyes, heart and yes ears.

Julie

Permalink Reply by Joseph Matties on February 1, 2010 at 10:40am

Ok I read most of this stuff and I love it all. I do think some of the conversations are going in circles but I still like to read it.

So here is my question. What do you do about giving massages to your friends that you had before you were a therapist? I noticed that this makes your friends see you differently. Right now all I do is massage my friends because I'm a student and I can't charge. I massage them for practice and to learn new things. What I have noticed is that I get a lot more calls from these friends when they need help with other things around the house. How do you keep yourself from getting into the position of feeling used or taken advantage of without being an @ss to your friends?


What would you do if you gave a massage to someone a few times and then they ended up asking you out? You find this person attractive but you don't want mix massage with your personal life. Anyone ever been in this situation? How did you deal with it or what do you do?

I'm a very "what if" kinda person lol, my brain is constantly thinking of all kinds of different things. Thanks for any input.

Permalink Reply by Las Vegas Massage In Summerlin on February 1, 2010 at 11:54am

~

Hey Joseph!


So here is my question. What do you do about giving massages to your friends that you had before you were a therapist?

Kris: I give them a massage as a professional massage therapist.

J: I noticed that this makes your friends see you differently. Right now all I do is massage my friends because I'm a student and I can't charge. I massage them for practice and to learn new things. What I have noticed is that I get a lot more calls from these friends when they need help with other things around the house. How do you keep yourself from getting into the position of feeling used or taken advantage of without being an @ss to your friends?

Kris: Address the issues, one by one, in a professional manner. What do we do when this arises in other areas of our life? We handle it.

I've seen all sorts of comments to these discussions. "What if I become friends with a client and now they don't want to pay, or barter with me," or on and on and on...

Again, how do you handle these situations outside of massage? What is the relationship with these people based on? I obviously cannot comment for others, but when I became a massage therapist, my life didn't change all that much. I didn't have people knocking on my door looking to con me out of a massage.

The more encompassing question here is, if this situation occurs such as: 'I've now become a massage therapist and one of my friends wants free massage, or refuses to pay..."

Take a close look at yourself, first. How and why are you allowing this to happen?? What kind of relationships do you really have?

Perhaps I'm a bit jaded on this issue, as I was already a professional in my full time job when I became a massage therapist. I respect myself and others respected me. Even my 'goof-around' friends know me well enough to not attempt to mooch off of me. Did I give out free massages? Sure I did. Did people attempt to take advantage of me? It occured once in awhile.

It's all up to you; do you re-act or respond? For me, there's a difference. How do you address these situations in other areas of your life?

J: What would you do if you gave a massage to someone a few times and then they ended up asking you out? You find this person attractive but you don't want mix massage with your personal life. Anyone ever been in this situation? How did you deal with it or what do you do?

Kris: Well, is she smokin' hot and filthy rich? If so, proceed as the resident massage boy-toy!

KIDDING! JUST KIDDING! Good grief! At times the seriousness just makes me want to throw myself out the window!

...but I will be serious.

This IS your Life we're talking about here. What energy do you give off if everyone and anyone is always attempting to take advantage of you, regardless if it's a massage or any other aspect of your life?

Are you self confident and respectful, an open and honest listener? Or, are you attempting to take advantage of others and they are just mirroring back to you?

J: I'm a very "what if" kinda person lol, my brain is constantly thinking of all kinds of different things. Thanks for any input.

Kris: "What if" is fine. Yet, what ARE you going to do?

In regards to the 'professional' aspect, I've seldom got in trouble when I just say 'No.'

If I'm feeling this just isn't right, I just say no.

I always get in trouble when I don't listen to my inner voice and attempt to manipulate the Universe as opposed to following the Universes' energy as it is. Such as, "I'll say yes and do this, just once...."

It's always trouble.

Kris

P.S. Was this any assistance at all? I'm in a rant and rave mood today ;)

Permalink Reply by Joseph Matties on February 1, 2010 at 12:30pm

This is all very helpfull. I like to read everyones views, but in the end I make up my own mind the way I see fit. I don't really let people take advantage of me and I don't take advantage of other people. I also understand your point on giving off that vibe of you trying to take advantage of a situation so it mirrors back on you. What I am going to take from this, is to be professional and treat all people the same weather or not you knew them before. If they try and take advantage because they knew you before then they aren't as good a friend as you thought they were. I guess you have to be willing to recognise these things for what they are. I have noticed that you have a whole different kind of relationship with the people you massage for awhile. This is something I am just kinda getting used to. I really like it, but it's just different and new to me. It is a very giving profession and takes a special kind of person to care so much for someone with only money as payment (not implying anything other than someone caring about you the same way in return). I expect its going to be hard when I leave school because I won't be getting a massage in return for every massage I give.

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