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Why are some clients sore after a Deep Tissue Massage and others are not?
I've been practicing Massage for about a year now. During the Massage Program I completed, we learned Deep Tissue and even practiced it on each other. I always tried to work with one person in particular because she was so strong and did amazing DT work. There were times when I felt as though the pressure was too much, but I never told her to let up and I never developed any soreness - of course, at this point, we were practicing on each other 3-4 times a week, meaning I was getting several Massages each week for several months.
In the past year, since finishing the program and working on my own, I've come across a lot of different levels of soreness after DT work. I have some clients who come in, haven't had a Massage in a couple of years, receive a DT Massage (and I know I'm strong based on client feedback) and have NO soreness. I have other clients who come in and are extremely sore after their first DT Massage, and then I have OTHER clients who are not sore after their first couple of DT Massages, but become sore after their third, fourth or fifth DT Massage. I've even put together a spreadsheet looking for any sort of consistency in what causes the soreness, but I have yet to come across any patterns.
Two other factors - I ALWAYS do Trigger Point work when I do DT, and I try to ensure that I work slowly - starting superficially and working deeper.
Does anyone know or have a theory on why some clients develop soreness, why some never do, and why some develop it later after several treatments?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on
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Boris...I call then sore spots now....trigger points , knots, or whatever.... Sore spots is good enough for me now...and I use different techniques to make them go away as best I can...And Im better at it now then I ever have been. I just call them sore spots now...And if they are pretty much in the belly of the muscle somewhere..I can make them go away. Quite often.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Gordon.
Practically I am possessing all works of Dr.Travell including books that she wrote with Dr.Simons.I believe you are mistaking them mentioning " muscle knots" as a term. most likely you saw it at some other books. More than this I don't believe that any pathology and histology texts referring as well as describing muscle knots as a pathological changes within muscles or mentioning it at all. I believe that"muscle knots" is a sensation description by people who is suffering from pinpoint pain localization .as a practitioners we shouldn't keep in mind "muscle knots"pathology in our minds because it can lead to some techniques that can harm. I mean if pathology is not existing and you trying to apply some techniques to "open up muscle knots"it can be not only not productive but also traumatizing.On the other hand morphology of trigger points is very much known fact, as well proposed treatment designed to address this blood supply insufficiency to this particular inflamed cells. Have a proposal let's stop in our discussion to use this term, and let's stop simplifies massage therapy in general including simplifies adequate trigger point therapy that's a little bit more demanding then you have described in your posts.
With respect.
Boris PrilutskyGordon J. Wallis said:
Boris, I dont have that book anymore...I read it when it first came out like five times...I formed my entire massage around the information in that book. The information is in there somewhere. The entire book is about muscle knots (trigger points).
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Gordon.
Couldn't find term" muscle knots" at Travell's texts.will appreciate if you will refer to page.thanks.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:I hope it is in a text book...Ive never seen it in a text book. Well not a massage book.. Travells Myofacial Pain and Dysfunction is where I got that or figured it out from back in the eighties. I have asked many many therapists if they can tell me what a knot in a muscle is....Im talking hundreds of therapists.. Probably weakly sense 1986.. lol They dont know this.. So , I hope it is in a text book...Trigger Points are crucial to understand, if you want to be a massage therapist..Crucial.
Massage Gnome said:Hi Gordon,
You mention that this is not taught in schools but it is in all the textbooks I have seen. Was this not in yours?
Gary W Addis said:Gordon, that is an absolutely eloquent explanation, an actual explanation of what causes the damage--thank you.
Stephen Jeffrey said:Gordon's explaination from knot in muscle thread. =
Hmm.....How do I say this???? Well first off...I'm not trying to start any aguments in here...Or challenge anyone as to what they think.or whats real...Like my way or the highway... Im right your wrong kinda thing... But Ive been doing this kind work for 26 years now..So I think what I say should at least be considered. That's all... Not saying that I might not change my mind later?...And Jody Hutchenson gave a really interesting answer, that made sense...But I came up with something comletely different?? I think they are both true.. And I will try to integrate Jody's definition, in with mine.. Does that make sense? Anyway .. Hardly any massage school teaches what a knot in a muscle is, from what I can tell?? And I find that very very interesting.. Because when you consider that 85% of all pain is caused directly from trigger points( knots ) in muscles, and that trigger points are involved in 95% of all pain syndromes...Seems important to know? If you ask me?? Anyway..........
Your muscles are made up of bundles of cells.. They are long and skinny like the hairs on your head. Wrapped around each muscle cell is an organelle called a Sarcoplasmic Recticulum. One of the things the sarcoplasmic recticulum does is to control calcium flow within the cell...So when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to contract. The sarcoplasmic recticulum exudes calcium from its membrane, and that calcium mixes with a protein in the cell called myosin. That starts a chain reaction, and then the muscle cell( fiber ) contracts...Then when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to relax or lengthen ... The sarcoplasmic recticulum reobsorbs the calcium , seperating it from the myosin, and the muscle fiber relaxes.
Now do to stress. And stress is a big word( Emotional Tension,Repetitive movements, a blow from an accident, sudden movement ,or whatever) the sarcoplasmic recticulum can rupture or beak...And when it breaks, the calcium just leaks out,and mixes with the myosin thats present in the area.. So whatever muscle fibers run through that mxsture, they Contract. And thats your Knot.. An area of contracted muscle fibers within a relaxed muscle..
Anyway, when you find a Knot, Trigger Point, Sore Spot or whatever you wanna call it...When you press on it, you are pushing that calcium myosin mixture out of the area.. Back into the venous system. Then the muscle fibers can open up and lengthen..Now the cellular damage is still there. But now the fresh blood can get in and repair the damage(broken sarcoplasmic recticulum ) .. That's why trigger points tend to linger ,until they get stretched out or pressed out . The capillary flow is cut off... So that's what I figured out about massage as it pertains to do with knots in muscles..... But I don't hear that being taught in schools schools? Not sure what that means? .Considering that 85% of all pain is directly caused from knots in muscles.. And that's why I thought your answer was not correct. But not saying I know everything.. Cause I know I don't - Gordon.
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Permalink Reply by Joan Cole on
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When it's a solution oriented massage (rather than pure relaxation), I'm a big fan of the Columbo approach to history taking (those of us old enough to remember the TV show with Peter Salk as the apparently bumbling detective)... I get the intake to be sure of contraindications, but don't sit and talk for half an hour before getting to the massage table. Sorry - in my market that won't work - people paying for a 60 minute massage want 60 minutes on the table, and I can't afford to take that much uncompensated time between clients. It would be a nice luxury, but I do too many people in one day to have a gap that big...
So anyhow, the Columbo approach is as you come to something that seems dysfunctional, you "wonder" aloud how that could have come about, and then let the client supply the story. If they don't know, you can tell a story about hypothetical other people you've seen with something similar and how it came about to them. Often it will inspire recall on the client's part of what led to it, and then learning. Because they figured it out for themselves. I don't do pronouncements from on high. I also get a much more complete history, over the course of the hour, than I would if I tried to separate things in time. It might not be so great if I were only expecting to see someone once, but that's NOT my treatment model. It's business suicide to attempt to fix everything in one session. I'll see them next week, or in two weeks, or in a month, and we can work with the new information then if it didn't work into today's treatment plan.
Lolita Knight said:not sure I understand your comment. My clients usually rush themselves to the massage table and often talk during the session so we can create a preventative program to not re-create the problem. By allowing the conversation, the real cause of the problem becomes apparent. Others of course just want to be quiet and enjoy their time out.
Gordon J. Wallis said:
Yea the thread thing can get confusing in here I havent really figured it out myself....Its all good though...Just thread the best you can... lol
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Massage Gnome said:
Gordon,
You misunderstand what I am saying. I am not accusing you of anything, least of all malpractice. What I am saying is by telling your clients the way you say the client could easily accuse you of it. I also work on doctors and nurses from the Mayo Health system here. My comment was to say that it is best to be careful how you say things. At the Ethics convention from the AMTA a few years ago, we were told about a lot of actual cases where things like that happened for a whole lot less. To the point of them trying to restrict us from selling essential oils, supplements and the like in our profession just to keep the court cases down. I have no doubt in my mind that you are a very talented and dedicated massage therapist. I just wanted to point out that things we as professionals say and the way we say them can be used against us in this way so it is best to be cautious, choose your words wisely (not on the forum we are here to voice our views, right?) But in our practice we deal with people from all over, in different backgrounds and values and you don't know what they are capable of. That is all that I meant. So please forgive me if I offended you in any way, it was not my intention.
MG
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Permalink Reply by Lolita Knight on
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Hi I am going to stop this thread as I will be away teaching massage CE classes in WV, VA and NC and need to keep my email limited. Will check back in in mid August when I return. Cheers Lolita To keep up with me you can check my web page www.fijianmassage.com
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One of the ways a trigger point forms is if calcium floods the muscle cells..That will happen if the sarcoplasmic recticulum is damaged. Because normally it wont release calcium ions into the muscle cell until there is an electrical signal from the brain telling it to. I studied, that over 20 years ago...And when my son was in pre-med a few years ago...I remember him reading to me about muscle contractions and the role of calcium and the sarcoplasmic recticulum. And that was in an anatomy physiology text at his university. So its hardly anything not true. Im not making any false statements...to anybody? I attached some references...Im a real massage therapist..A serious one. Im just telling people what I do.
- Attachments:
![DC-260-78709A372[1].referencespdf.pdf](https://static.ning.com/socialnetworkmain/widgets/forum/gfx/fileicons/pdf.gif?xn_version=539796025)
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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on
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Hi Gordon..
you said:"I call then sore spots now....trigger points , knots, or whatever."
in such a case we discussing not the particular conditions, because sore spots,not always developing trigger points.of course if one didn't develop TP then why to apply TPT. I do believe that you performing good result oriented procedure I just believe that because muscular pathology such as " muscular knots" not really existing we as massage therapists should avoid to use this term.I hope you do realize a lot of massage students and beginners reading these posts and and any not careful presented information can be not helpful for their future career.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:Boris...I call then sore spots now....trigger points , knots, or whatever.... Sore spots is good enough for me now...and I use different techniques to make them go away as best I can...And Im better at it now then I ever have been. I just call them sore spots now...And if they are pretty much in the belly of the muscle somewhere..I can make them go away. Quite often.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Gordon.
Practically I am possessing all works of Dr.Travell including books that she wrote with Dr.Simons.I believe you are mistaking them mentioning " muscle knots" as a term. most likely you saw it at some other books. More than this I don't believe that any pathology and histology texts referring as well as describing muscle knots as a pathological changes within muscles or mentioning it at all. I believe that"muscle knots" is a sensation description by people who is suffering from pinpoint pain localization .as a practitioners we shouldn't keep in mind "muscle knots"pathology in our minds because it can lead to some techniques that can harm. I mean if pathology is not existing and you trying to apply some techniques to "open up muscle knots"it can be not only not productive but also traumatizing.On the other hand morphology of trigger points is very much known fact, as well proposed treatment designed to address this blood supply insufficiency to this particular inflamed cells. Have a proposal let's stop in our discussion to use this term, and let's stop simplifies massage therapy in general including simplifies adequate trigger point therapy that's a little bit more demanding then you have described in your posts.
With respect.
Boris PrilutskyGordon J. Wallis said:
Boris, I dont have that book anymore...I read it when it first came out like five times...I formed my entire massage around the information in that book. The information is in there somewhere. The entire book is about muscle knots (trigger points).
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Gordon.
Couldn't find term" muscle knots" at Travell's texts.will appreciate if you will refer to page.thanks.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:I hope it is in a text book...Ive never seen it in a text book. Well not a massage book.. Travells Myofacial Pain and Dysfunction is where I got that or figured it out from back in the eighties. I have asked many many therapists if they can tell me what a knot in a muscle is....Im talking hundreds of therapists.. Probably weakly sense 1986.. lol They dont know this.. So , I hope it is in a text book...Trigger Points are crucial to understand, if you want to be a massage therapist..Crucial.
Massage Gnome said:Hi Gordon,
You mention that this is not taught in schools but it is in all the textbooks I have seen. Was this not in yours?
Gary W Addis said:Gordon, that is an absolutely eloquent explanation, an actual explanation of what causes the damage--thank you.
Stephen Jeffrey said:Gordon's explaination from knot in muscle thread. =
Hmm.....How do I say this???? Well first off...I'm not trying to start any aguments in here...Or challenge anyone as to what they think.or whats real...Like my way or the highway... Im right your wrong kinda thing... But Ive been doing this kind work for 26 years now..So I think what I say should at least be considered. That's all... Not saying that I might not change my mind later?...And Jody Hutchenson gave a really interesting answer, that made sense...But I came up with something comletely different?? I think they are both true.. And I will try to integrate Jody's definition, in with mine.. Does that make sense? Anyway .. Hardly any massage school teaches what a knot in a muscle is, from what I can tell?? And I find that very very interesting.. Because when you consider that 85% of all pain is caused directly from trigger points( knots ) in muscles, and that trigger points are involved in 95% of all pain syndromes...Seems important to know? If you ask me?? Anyway..........
Your muscles are made up of bundles of cells.. They are long and skinny like the hairs on your head. Wrapped around each muscle cell is an organelle called a Sarcoplasmic Recticulum. One of the things the sarcoplasmic recticulum does is to control calcium flow within the cell...So when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to contract. The sarcoplasmic recticulum exudes calcium from its membrane, and that calcium mixes with a protein in the cell called myosin. That starts a chain reaction, and then the muscle cell( fiber ) contracts...Then when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to relax or lengthen ... The sarcoplasmic recticulum reobsorbs the calcium , seperating it from the myosin, and the muscle fiber relaxes.
Now do to stress. And stress is a big word( Emotional Tension,Repetitive movements, a blow from an accident, sudden movement ,or whatever) the sarcoplasmic recticulum can rupture or beak...And when it breaks, the calcium just leaks out,and mixes with the myosin thats present in the area.. So whatever muscle fibers run through that mxsture, they Contract. And thats your Knot.. An area of contracted muscle fibers within a relaxed muscle..
Anyway, when you find a Knot, Trigger Point, Sore Spot or whatever you wanna call it...When you press on it, you are pushing that calcium myosin mixture out of the area.. Back into the venous system. Then the muscle fibers can open up and lengthen..Now the cellular damage is still there. But now the fresh blood can get in and repair the damage(broken sarcoplasmic recticulum ) .. That's why trigger points tend to linger ,until they get stretched out or pressed out . The capillary flow is cut off... So that's what I figured out about massage as it pertains to do with knots in muscles..... But I don't hear that being taught in schools schools? Not sure what that means? .Considering that 85% of all pain is directly caused from knots in muscles.. And that's why I thought your answer was not correct. But not saying I know everything.. Cause I know I don't - Gordon.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcWX-b07qqM&feature=related That link explains calciums role in muscle contraction. Its well established knowledge.
Gordon J. Wallis said:
Massage Gnome said:
Gordon,
You misunderstand what I am saying. I am not accusing you of anything, least of all malpractice. What I am saying is by telling your clients the way you say the client could easily accuse you of it. I also work on doctors and nurses from the Mayo Health system here. My comment was to say that it is best to be careful how you say things. At the Ethics convention from the AMTA a few years ago, we were told about a lot of actual cases where things like that happened for a whole lot less. To the point of them trying to restrict us from selling essential oils, supplements and the like in our profession just to keep the court cases down. I have no doubt in my mind that you are a very talented and dedicated massage therapist. I just wanted to point out that things we as professionals say and the way we say them can be used against us in this way so it is best to be cautious, choose your words wisely (not on the forum we are here to voice our views, right?) But in our practice we deal with people from all over, in different backgrounds and values and you don't know what they are capable of. That is all that I meant. So please forgive me if I offended you in any way, it was not my intention.
MG
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Well all I really do is massage people, and when and if we come across a sore spot.or.whatever you want to call it. More often then not... I can make it go away.. And I can do it better now then ever...So ? I dont know what to say in here now? I will just keep quiet...I seem to be disturbing people in here.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Gordon..
you said:"I call then sore spots now....trigger points , knots, or whatever."
in such a case we discussing not the particular conditions, because sore spots,not always developing trigger points.of course if one didn't develop TP then why to apply TPT. I do believe that you performing good result oriented procedure I just believe that because muscular pathology such as " muscular knots" not really existing we as massage therapists should avoid to use this term.I hope you do realize a lot of massage students and beginners reading these posts and and any not careful presented information can be not helpful for their future career.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:Boris...I call then sore spots now....trigger points , knots, or whatever.... Sore spots is good enough for me now...and I use different techniques to make them go away as best I can...And Im better at it now then I ever have been. I just call them sore spots now...And if they are pretty much in the belly of the muscle somewhere..I can make them go away. Quite often.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Gordon.
Practically I am possessing all works of Dr.Travell including books that she wrote with Dr.Simons.I believe you are mistaking them mentioning " muscle knots" as a term. most likely you saw it at some other books. More than this I don't believe that any pathology and histology texts referring as well as describing muscle knots as a pathological changes within muscles or mentioning it at all. I believe that"muscle knots" is a sensation description by people who is suffering from pinpoint pain localization .as a practitioners we shouldn't keep in mind "muscle knots"pathology in our minds because it can lead to some techniques that can harm. I mean if pathology is not existing and you trying to apply some techniques to "open up muscle knots"it can be not only not productive but also traumatizing.On the other hand morphology of trigger points is very much known fact, as well proposed treatment designed to address this blood supply insufficiency to this particular inflamed cells. Have a proposal let's stop in our discussion to use this term, and let's stop simplifies massage therapy in general including simplifies adequate trigger point therapy that's a little bit more demanding then you have described in your posts.
With respect.
Boris PrilutskyGordon J. Wallis said:
Boris, I dont have that book anymore...I read it when it first came out like five times...I formed my entire massage around the information in that book. The information is in there somewhere. The entire book is about muscle knots (trigger points).
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Gordon.
Couldn't find term" muscle knots" at Travell's texts.will appreciate if you will refer to page.thanks.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:I hope it is in a text book...Ive never seen it in a text book. Well not a massage book.. Travells Myofacial Pain and Dysfunction is where I got that or figured it out from back in the eighties. I have asked many many therapists if they can tell me what a knot in a muscle is....Im talking hundreds of therapists.. Probably weakly sense 1986.. lol They dont know this.. So , I hope it is in a text book...Trigger Points are crucial to understand, if you want to be a massage therapist..Crucial.
Massage Gnome said:Hi Gordon,
You mention that this is not taught in schools but it is in all the textbooks I have seen. Was this not in yours?
Gary W Addis said:Gordon, that is an absolutely eloquent explanation, an actual explanation of what causes the damage--thank you.
Stephen Jeffrey said:Gordon's explaination from knot in muscle thread. =
Hmm.....How do I say this???? Well first off...I'm not trying to start any aguments in here...Or challenge anyone as to what they think.or whats real...Like my way or the highway... Im right your wrong kinda thing... But Ive been doing this kind work for 26 years now..So I think what I say should at least be considered. That's all... Not saying that I might not change my mind later?...And Jody Hutchenson gave a really interesting answer, that made sense...But I came up with something comletely different?? I think they are both true.. And I will try to integrate Jody's definition, in with mine.. Does that make sense? Anyway .. Hardly any massage school teaches what a knot in a muscle is, from what I can tell?? And I find that very very interesting.. Because when you consider that 85% of all pain is caused directly from trigger points( knots ) in muscles, and that trigger points are involved in 95% of all pain syndromes...Seems important to know? If you ask me?? Anyway..........
Your muscles are made up of bundles of cells.. They are long and skinny like the hairs on your head. Wrapped around each muscle cell is an organelle called a Sarcoplasmic Recticulum. One of the things the sarcoplasmic recticulum does is to control calcium flow within the cell...So when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to contract. The sarcoplasmic recticulum exudes calcium from its membrane, and that calcium mixes with a protein in the cell called myosin. That starts a chain reaction, and then the muscle cell( fiber ) contracts...Then when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to relax or lengthen ... The sarcoplasmic recticulum reobsorbs the calcium , seperating it from the myosin, and the muscle fiber relaxes.
Now do to stress. And stress is a big word( Emotional Tension,Repetitive movements, a blow from an accident, sudden movement ,or whatever) the sarcoplasmic recticulum can rupture or beak...And when it breaks, the calcium just leaks out,and mixes with the myosin thats present in the area.. So whatever muscle fibers run through that mxsture, they Contract. And thats your Knot.. An area of contracted muscle fibers within a relaxed muscle..
Anyway, when you find a Knot, Trigger Point, Sore Spot or whatever you wanna call it...When you press on it, you are pushing that calcium myosin mixture out of the area.. Back into the venous system. Then the muscle fibers can open up and lengthen..Now the cellular damage is still there. But now the fresh blood can get in and repair the damage(broken sarcoplasmic recticulum ) .. That's why trigger points tend to linger ,until they get stretched out or pressed out . The capillary flow is cut off... So that's what I figured out about massage as it pertains to do with knots in muscles..... But I don't hear that being taught in schools schools? Not sure what that means? .Considering that 85% of all pain is directly caused from knots in muscles.. And that's why I thought your answer was not correct. But not saying I know everything.. Cause I know I don't - Gordon.
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-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcWX-b07qqM&feature=related Listen carefully. to this clip..My son showed it too me when he was in pre-med.. This explains calcium and the sarcoplasmic recticulums role in muscle contractions quite clearly.
Gordon J. Wallis said:
Well all I really do is massage people, and when and if we come across a sore spot.or.whatever you want to call it. More often then not... I can make it go away.. And I can do it better now then ever...So ? I dont know what to say in here now? I will just keep quiet...I seem to be disturbing people in here.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Gordon..
you said:"I call then sore spots now....trigger points , knots, or whatever."
in such a case we discussing not the particular conditions, because sore spots,not always developing trigger points.of course if one didn't develop TP then why to apply TPT. I do believe that you performing good result oriented procedure I just believe that because muscular pathology such as " muscular knots" not really existing we as massage therapists should avoid to use this term.I hope you do realize a lot of massage students and beginners reading these posts and and any not careful presented information can be not helpful for their future career.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:Boris...I call then sore spots now....trigger points , knots, or whatever.... Sore spots is good enough for me now...and I use different techniques to make them go away as best I can...And Im better at it now then I ever have been. I just call them sore spots now...And if they are pretty much in the belly of the muscle somewhere..I can make them go away. Quite often.
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Gordon.
Practically I am possessing all works of Dr.Travell including books that she wrote with Dr.Simons.I believe you are mistaking them mentioning " muscle knots" as a term. most likely you saw it at some other books. More than this I don't believe that any pathology and histology texts referring as well as describing muscle knots as a pathological changes within muscles or mentioning it at all. I believe that"muscle knots" is a sensation description by people who is suffering from pinpoint pain localization .as a practitioners we shouldn't keep in mind "muscle knots"pathology in our minds because it can lead to some techniques that can harm. I mean if pathology is not existing and you trying to apply some techniques to "open up muscle knots"it can be not only not productive but also traumatizing.On the other hand morphology of trigger points is very much known fact, as well proposed treatment designed to address this blood supply insufficiency to this particular inflamed cells. Have a proposal let's stop in our discussion to use this term, and let's stop simplifies massage therapy in general including simplifies adequate trigger point therapy that's a little bit more demanding then you have described in your posts.
With respect.
Boris PrilutskyGordon J. Wallis said:
Boris, I dont have that book anymore...I read it when it first came out like five times...I formed my entire massage around the information in that book. The information is in there somewhere. The entire book is about muscle knots (trigger points).
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Gordon.
Couldn't find term" muscle knots" at Travell's texts.will appreciate if you will refer to page.thanks.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:I hope it is in a text book...Ive never seen it in a text book. Well not a massage book.. Travells Myofacial Pain and Dysfunction is where I got that or figured it out from back in the eighties. I have asked many many therapists if they can tell me what a knot in a muscle is....Im talking hundreds of therapists.. Probably weakly sense 1986.. lol They dont know this.. So , I hope it is in a text book...Trigger Points are crucial to understand, if you want to be a massage therapist..Crucial.
Massage Gnome said:Hi Gordon,
You mention that this is not taught in schools but it is in all the textbooks I have seen. Was this not in yours?
Gary W Addis said:Gordon, that is an absolutely eloquent explanation, an actual explanation of what causes the damage--thank you.
Stephen Jeffrey said:Gordon's explaination from knot in muscle thread. =
Hmm.....How do I say this???? Well first off...I'm not trying to start any aguments in here...Or challenge anyone as to what they think.or whats real...Like my way or the highway... Im right your wrong kinda thing... But Ive been doing this kind work for 26 years now..So I think what I say should at least be considered. That's all... Not saying that I might not change my mind later?...And Jody Hutchenson gave a really interesting answer, that made sense...But I came up with something comletely different?? I think they are both true.. And I will try to integrate Jody's definition, in with mine.. Does that make sense? Anyway .. Hardly any massage school teaches what a knot in a muscle is, from what I can tell?? And I find that very very interesting.. Because when you consider that 85% of all pain is caused directly from trigger points( knots ) in muscles, and that trigger points are involved in 95% of all pain syndromes...Seems important to know? If you ask me?? Anyway..........
Your muscles are made up of bundles of cells.. They are long and skinny like the hairs on your head. Wrapped around each muscle cell is an organelle called a Sarcoplasmic Recticulum. One of the things the sarcoplasmic recticulum does is to control calcium flow within the cell...So when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to contract. The sarcoplasmic recticulum exudes calcium from its membrane, and that calcium mixes with a protein in the cell called myosin. That starts a chain reaction, and then the muscle cell( fiber ) contracts...Then when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to relax or lengthen ... The sarcoplasmic recticulum reobsorbs the calcium , seperating it from the myosin, and the muscle fiber relaxes.
Now do to stress. And stress is a big word( Emotional Tension,Repetitive movements, a blow from an accident, sudden movement ,or whatever) the sarcoplasmic recticulum can rupture or beak...And when it breaks, the calcium just leaks out,and mixes with the myosin thats present in the area.. So whatever muscle fibers run through that mxsture, they Contract. And thats your Knot.. An area of contracted muscle fibers within a relaxed muscle..
Anyway, when you find a Knot, Trigger Point, Sore Spot or whatever you wanna call it...When you press on it, you are pushing that calcium myosin mixture out of the area.. Back into the venous system. Then the muscle fibers can open up and lengthen..Now the cellular damage is still there. But now the fresh blood can get in and repair the damage(broken sarcoplasmic recticulum ) .. That's why trigger points tend to linger ,until they get stretched out or pressed out . The capillary flow is cut off... So that's what I figured out about massage as it pertains to do with knots in muscles..... But I don't hear that being taught in schools schools? Not sure what that means? .Considering that 85% of all pain is directly caused from knots in muscles.. And that's why I thought your answer was not correct. But not saying I know everything.. Cause I know I don't - Gordon.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcWX-b07qqM&feature=related That explains what Ive been saying... I dont just make stuff up...
Gordon J. Wallis said:
Boris...I call then sore spots now....trigger points , knots, or whatever.... Sore spots is good enough for me now...and I use different techniques to make them go away as best I can...And Im better at it now then I ever have been. I just call them sore spots now...And if they are pretty much in the belly of the muscle somewhere..I can make them go away. Quite often.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Gordon.
Practically I am possessing all works of Dr.Travell including books that she wrote with Dr.Simons.I believe you are mistaking them mentioning " muscle knots" as a term. most likely you saw it at some other books. More than this I don't believe that any pathology and histology texts referring as well as describing muscle knots as a pathological changes within muscles or mentioning it at all. I believe that"muscle knots" is a sensation description by people who is suffering from pinpoint pain localization .as a practitioners we shouldn't keep in mind "muscle knots"pathology in our minds because it can lead to some techniques that can harm. I mean if pathology is not existing and you trying to apply some techniques to "open up muscle knots"it can be not only not productive but also traumatizing.On the other hand morphology of trigger points is very much known fact, as well proposed treatment designed to address this blood supply insufficiency to this particular inflamed cells. Have a proposal let's stop in our discussion to use this term, and let's stop simplifies massage therapy in general including simplifies adequate trigger point therapy that's a little bit more demanding then you have described in your posts.
With respect.
Boris PrilutskyGordon J. Wallis said:
Boris, I dont have that book anymore...I read it when it first came out like five times...I formed my entire massage around the information in that book. The information is in there somewhere. The entire book is about muscle knots (trigger points).
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Gordon.
Couldn't find term" muscle knots" at Travell's texts.will appreciate if you will refer to page.thanks.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:I hope it is in a text book...Ive never seen it in a text book. Well not a massage book.. Travells Myofacial Pain and Dysfunction is where I got that or figured it out from back in the eighties. I have asked many many therapists if they can tell me what a knot in a muscle is....Im talking hundreds of therapists.. Probably weakly sense 1986.. lol They dont know this.. So , I hope it is in a text book...Trigger Points are crucial to understand, if you want to be a massage therapist..Crucial.
Massage Gnome said:Hi Gordon,
You mention that this is not taught in schools but it is in all the textbooks I have seen. Was this not in yours?
Gary W Addis said:Gordon, that is an absolutely eloquent explanation, an actual explanation of what causes the damage--thank you.
Stephen Jeffrey said:Gordon's explaination from knot in muscle thread. =
Hmm.....How do I say this???? Well first off...I'm not trying to start any aguments in here...Or challenge anyone as to what they think.or whats real...Like my way or the highway... Im right your wrong kinda thing... But Ive been doing this kind work for 26 years now..So I think what I say should at least be considered. That's all... Not saying that I might not change my mind later?...And Jody Hutchenson gave a really interesting answer, that made sense...But I came up with something comletely different?? I think they are both true.. And I will try to integrate Jody's definition, in with mine.. Does that make sense? Anyway .. Hardly any massage school teaches what a knot in a muscle is, from what I can tell?? And I find that very very interesting.. Because when you consider that 85% of all pain is caused directly from trigger points( knots ) in muscles, and that trigger points are involved in 95% of all pain syndromes...Seems important to know? If you ask me?? Anyway..........
Your muscles are made up of bundles of cells.. They are long and skinny like the hairs on your head. Wrapped around each muscle cell is an organelle called a Sarcoplasmic Recticulum. One of the things the sarcoplasmic recticulum does is to control calcium flow within the cell...So when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to contract. The sarcoplasmic recticulum exudes calcium from its membrane, and that calcium mixes with a protein in the cell called myosin. That starts a chain reaction, and then the muscle cell( fiber ) contracts...Then when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to relax or lengthen ... The sarcoplasmic recticulum reobsorbs the calcium , seperating it from the myosin, and the muscle fiber relaxes.
Now do to stress. And stress is a big word( Emotional Tension,Repetitive movements, a blow from an accident, sudden movement ,or whatever) the sarcoplasmic recticulum can rupture or beak...And when it breaks, the calcium just leaks out,and mixes with the myosin thats present in the area.. So whatever muscle fibers run through that mxsture, they Contract. And thats your Knot.. An area of contracted muscle fibers within a relaxed muscle..
Anyway, when you find a Knot, Trigger Point, Sore Spot or whatever you wanna call it...When you press on it, you are pushing that calcium myosin mixture out of the area.. Back into the venous system. Then the muscle fibers can open up and lengthen..Now the cellular damage is still there. But now the fresh blood can get in and repair the damage(broken sarcoplasmic recticulum ) .. That's why trigger points tend to linger ,until they get stretched out or pressed out . The capillary flow is cut off... So that's what I figured out about massage as it pertains to do with knots in muscles..... But I don't hear that being taught in schools schools? Not sure what that means? .Considering that 85% of all pain is directly caused from knots in muscles.. And that's why I thought your answer was not correct. But not saying I know everything.. Cause I know I don't - Gordon.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcWX-b07qqM&feature=related That clearly states what role the sarcoplasmic recticulum plays in muscle contractions... I read study and apply information..I dont just repeat what Ive been told.. lol Truth seems to upset the norm? Whats that make the norm? Is that false information? NOT
Gordon J. Wallis said:
Massage Gnome said:
Gordon,
You misunderstand what I am saying. I am not accusing you of anything, least of all malpractice. What I am saying is by telling your clients the way you say the client could easily accuse you of it. I also work on doctors and nurses from the Mayo Health system here. My comment was to say that it is best to be careful how you say things. At the Ethics convention from the AMTA a few years ago, we were told about a lot of actual cases where things like that happened for a whole lot less. To the point of them trying to restrict us from selling essential oils, supplements and the like in our profession just to keep the court cases down. I have no doubt in my mind that you are a very talented and dedicated massage therapist. I just wanted to point out that things we as professionals say and the way we say them can be used against us in this way so it is best to be cautious, choose your words wisely (not on the forum we are here to voice our views, right?) But in our practice we deal with people from all over, in different backgrounds and values and you don't know what they are capable of. That is all that I meant. So please forgive me if I offended you in any way, it was not my intention.
MG
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Gordon. There is many different ways and causes for trigger points development,as well there is different types of trigger points but all of them having the same morphology, as well and therefore was developed adequate treatmentby applying different techniques.for example techniques for subcutaneous TP is a different than direct compressions,against localization of motor trigger points,but in both cases we contributing to additional ischemia for 30 seconds in order to trigger adequate blood supply. The data presented at this vid. Is correct and in case if muscles will be not strained never pain will be developed. at the time,proposed information has nothing to do with act of TPT.this is crucial to separate in order to be on one page at this discussion including but not limited to TPT.
Best wishes.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcWX-b07qqM&feature=related That explains what Ive been saying... I dont just make stuff up...
Gordon J. Wallis said:
Boris...I call then sore spots now....trigger points , knots, or whatever.... Sore spots is good enough for me now...and I use different techniques to make them go away as best I can...And Im better at it now then I ever have been. I just call them sore spots now...And if they are pretty much in the belly of the muscle somewhere..I can make them go away. Quite often.
Boris Prilutsky said:
Hi Gordon.
Practically I am possessing all works of Dr.Travell including books that she wrote with Dr.Simons.I believe you are mistaking them mentioning " muscle knots" as a term. most likely you saw it at some other books. More than this I don't believe that any pathology and histology texts referring as well as describing muscle knots as a pathological changes within muscles or mentioning it at all. I believe that"muscle knots" is a sensation description by people who is suffering from pinpoint pain localization .as a practitioners we shouldn't keep in mind "muscle knots"pathology in our minds because it can lead to some techniques that can harm. I mean if pathology is not existing and you trying to apply some techniques to "open up muscle knots"it can be not only not productive but also traumatizing.On the other hand morphology of trigger points is very much known fact, as well proposed treatment designed to address this blood supply insufficiency to this particular inflamed cells. Have a proposal let's stop in our discussion to use this term, and let's stop simplifies massage therapy in general including simplifies adequate trigger point therapy that's a little bit more demanding then you have described in your posts.
With respect.
Boris PrilutskyGordon J. Wallis said:
Boris, I dont have that book anymore...I read it when it first came out like five times...I formed my entire massage around the information in that book. The information is in there somewhere. The entire book is about muscle knots (trigger points).
Boris Prilutsky said:Hi Gordon.
Couldn't find term" muscle knots" at Travell's texts.will appreciate if you will refer to page.thanks.
Boris
Gordon J. Wallis said:I hope it is in a text book...Ive never seen it in a text book. Well not a massage book.. Travells Myofacial Pain and Dysfunction is where I got that or figured it out from back in the eighties. I have asked many many therapists if they can tell me what a knot in a muscle is....Im talking hundreds of therapists.. Probably weakly sense 1986.. lol They dont know this.. So , I hope it is in a text book...Trigger Points are crucial to understand, if you want to be a massage therapist..Crucial.
Massage Gnome said:Hi Gordon,
You mention that this is not taught in schools but it is in all the textbooks I have seen. Was this not in yours?
Gary W Addis said:Gordon, that is an absolutely eloquent explanation, an actual explanation of what causes the damage--thank you.
Stephen Jeffrey said:Gordon's explaination from knot in muscle thread. =
Hmm.....How do I say this???? Well first off...I'm not trying to start any aguments in here...Or challenge anyone as to what they think.or whats real...Like my way or the highway... Im right your wrong kinda thing... But Ive been doing this kind work for 26 years now..So I think what I say should at least be considered. That's all... Not saying that I might not change my mind later?...And Jody Hutchenson gave a really interesting answer, that made sense...But I came up with something comletely different?? I think they are both true.. And I will try to integrate Jody's definition, in with mine.. Does that make sense? Anyway .. Hardly any massage school teaches what a knot in a muscle is, from what I can tell?? And I find that very very interesting.. Because when you consider that 85% of all pain is caused directly from trigger points( knots ) in muscles, and that trigger points are involved in 95% of all pain syndromes...Seems important to know? If you ask me?? Anyway..........
Your muscles are made up of bundles of cells.. They are long and skinny like the hairs on your head. Wrapped around each muscle cell is an organelle called a Sarcoplasmic Recticulum. One of the things the sarcoplasmic recticulum does is to control calcium flow within the cell...So when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to contract. The sarcoplasmic recticulum exudes calcium from its membrane, and that calcium mixes with a protein in the cell called myosin. That starts a chain reaction, and then the muscle cell( fiber ) contracts...Then when there is an electrical signal from the brain for the muscle cell to relax or lengthen ... The sarcoplasmic recticulum reobsorbs the calcium , seperating it from the myosin, and the muscle fiber relaxes.
Now do to stress. And stress is a big word( Emotional Tension,Repetitive movements, a blow from an accident, sudden movement ,or whatever) the sarcoplasmic recticulum can rupture or beak...And when it breaks, the calcium just leaks out,and mixes with the myosin thats present in the area.. So whatever muscle fibers run through that mxsture, they Contract. And thats your Knot.. An area of contracted muscle fibers within a relaxed muscle..
Anyway, when you find a Knot, Trigger Point, Sore Spot or whatever you wanna call it...When you press on it, you are pushing that calcium myosin mixture out of the area.. Back into the venous system. Then the muscle fibers can open up and lengthen..Now the cellular damage is still there. But now the fresh blood can get in and repair the damage(broken sarcoplasmic recticulum ) .. That's why trigger points tend to linger ,until they get stretched out or pressed out . The capillary flow is cut off... So that's what I figured out about massage as it pertains to do with knots in muscles..... But I don't hear that being taught in schools schools? Not sure what that means? .Considering that 85% of all pain is directly caused from knots in muscles.. And that's why I thought your answer was not correct. But not saying I know everything.. Cause I know I don't - Gordon.
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