Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jody C. Hutchinson on February 13, 2012 at 10:25am

Boris,

This is an interesting question. I have wondered the same over the last few years and am still looking for an answer. I wonder how many doctors actually have a working knowledge of the effects of massage therapy, without naming a specific technique. Many of the docs, who refer patients to my practice, rarely specific technique. I usually get a more specific plan from a physical therapist.

So, I am wondering if we need to educate doctors on the actual science that occurs before suggesting any specific treatment regime or technique. Also, in my experience, few medical doctors are getting massage therapy.

I was glad to see the above article released.

Cheers,

JH

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on February 13, 2012 at 10:35am

Here is an interesting comment on methodology and conclusions of the recent study mentioned above. While researchers argue about valid method and the conclusions to be drawn, I am busy helping my clients.

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on February 13, 2012 at 10:36am

Hi Jody.

I am glad you find this question as an interesting one.   It is  hard to say how many doctors having  working knowledge on the effects of massage therapy. But we can be certain, after these data being published at Science Translational Medicine, many many of them knows that massage is not about feels good only.

Best wishes.

Boris

Jody C. Hutchinson said:

Boris,

This is an interesting question. I have wondered the same over the last few years and am still looking for an answer. I wonder how many doctors actually have a working knowledge of the effects of massage therapy, without naming a specific technique. Many of the docs, who refer patients to my practice, rarely specific technique. I usually get a more specific plan from a physical therapist.

So, I am wondering if we need to educate doctors on the actual science that occurs before suggesting any specific treatment regime or technique. Also, in my experience, few medical doctors are getting massage therapy.

I was glad to see the above article released.

Cheers,

JH

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Cohen on February 13, 2012 at 10:43am

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.6291 This article poses future research questions. The reason for researching is simple. "Massage is an increasingly popular complementary and alternative medicine modality used for a variety of conditions." We are popular, we get results, and they are getting interested.

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on February 13, 2012 at 10:54am

just a few moments ago very nice fellow proposed an idea at other site where I posted, I hope you'll like it, and maybe will offer your opinions.

Best wishes.

Boris

Hey Boris, you bring up some good points in your posting here. In answer to "what type of massage therapy doctors should choose?" You will notice that the treatment on the legs during the research was done using swedish massage. Soft tissue manipulation with warm up and petrissage. Fundamental treatment techniques....and if we look at swedish massage it encapsulates many of the treatment fundamentals we use today. http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2012/02/01/massage-muscle-repai...

How massage aids muscle healing - Health - CBC News

www.cbc.ca

Massage helps relieve pain in damaged muscles by sending anti-inflammation messages to muscle cells, Canadian researchers have found.

 

My reply.

Hi .
I am glad you did find some good points in my posting. Actually at original paper /study report scientists used definition such as “massage” and “massage therapy”. Swedish massage wasn't mentioned. On the other hand and as far I am know, there is no standard protocols for Swedish massage. Each school teaching differently, some incorporating kneading some really performing long pleasant strokes only. As you know back in Soviet Russia, many medical doctors use to perform hands-on medical massage procedures, as it was proposed by Prof.Sherback. Dr.Ternopolsky’s father is one of this russian physicians. Maybe there is some influence. Not sure ,but maybe. Soon I will know more. Having said this, viewing massage therapy demonstrations at the time of Dr.Ternopolsky’s TV interview, I'm doubt that the same massage therapists was employed in this study. I'm suspecting that TV producer just included some visual components of massage performances. As we speaking I'm studying from original study report, and will write some summary. I hoping that you will find it interesting. In any case what so far I can say:” it looks and sounds like report on post even sports massage, which is a bit different and in addition to what this paper describing there is much more extended data. This I can guarantee.
Best wishes.
Boris Prilutsky.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on February 13, 2012 at 1:10pm

Very interesting article Boris... The problem I see often enough is that doctors, all the different kinds, dont understand their patients problem in the first place....If they understood that the patients radiating arm pain was caused by trigger points in the infraspinatus muscle..They could refer their patient to a good massage therapist that they know who understands trigger points... But they dont...They seem to know very little about muscular pain....And if they have ruled out any pathology, they usually refer to a physical therapist...But the same problem...The physical therapists dont know that the aching pain down the arm is being caused by a trigger point in the infraspinatus.. And lots of massage therapists seem un- knowledgeable too..  I experience that weekly. Almost daily. Just yesterday... Working in a spa...I get too  see a crossroads of the medical communities work...

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on February 13, 2012 at 2:51pm

Hi Gordon.

I'm glad you like my  article .in the regards of medical doctors . The matter of fact is that medical doctors is an a leading authorities in health care system. And until they and   PTs  will not recognize us, which mean will start referring patients we will be in position where our industry is now. I mean many of our colleagues leaving practice for good, because they cannot sustain themselves financially charging $39 for one hour massage etc. The many articles and reports about benefits of massage are ignored by medical doctors, until it will be published  at publication similar Or like  Science Translational Medicine. When doctors read this data    at Science Translational Medicine, MDs don't have to know details on how massage working in cases of muscular syndromes etc. they simple referring patients. Now I agree with you, we have to know what to do in order to help. Please keep in mind , that patients referred by MD for treatment  of skeletal muscular  disorder, on bases twice a week coming to us for five weeks, paying us in average $50 for 35-40 minutes of orthopedic massage procedure. Now one can say, this is a lot of money, and many will be not able to afford. It is not really correct. Let's keep in mind ,only copayments, for a doctor visits, physical therapy office visits is an average $30. Then if you will explain this   mathematics to  patient and sometime to Dr. price perceptions ($50 minus $30 =$20) will be changed, and especially when we fundamentally changing conditions to better. Also good to mention expenses for paying prescribed and not prescribed painkillers, sleep pills and other medications.

Best wishes.

Boris.

Gordon J. Wallis said:

Very interesting article Boris... The problem I see often enough is that doctors, all the different kinds, dont understand their patients problem in the first place....If they understood that the patients radiating arm pain was caused by trigger points in the infraspinatus muscle..They could refer their patient to a good massage therapist that they know who understands trigger points... But they dont...They seem to know very little about muscular pain....And if they have ruled out any pathology, they usually refer to a physical therapist...But the same problem...The physical therapists dont know that the aching pain down the arm is being caused by a trigger point in the infraspinatus.. And lots of massage therapists seem un- knowledgeable too..  I experience that weekly. Almost daily. Just yesterday... Working in a spa...I get too  see a crossroads of the medical communities work...

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on February 14, 2012 at 5:59pm

Dear members. I do believe that this kind of discussions is beneficial for us, therefore offering it to you. Best wishes. Boris   Stephanie  says . there is too much hype and not enough good science. Unfortunately, the last time I checked, it’s just not safe to infer clinical benefit from a handful of biomarkers2 in a (very) small sample. An even bigger problem is that we already know from studies of actual clinical outcomes that massage has only modest effects on exercise recovery at best. In other words, there just isn’t much of a clinical benefit to explain, and maybe not. http://saveyourself.c... https://www.facebook.... 8 hours ago · Like Boris Prilutsky Hi Stephanie. I'm assuming that if you post it you believe in content of it . for sake of discussion, please explain what we should learn from this post? Up front I thank you very much. Best wishes. Boris Prilutsky 8 hours ago · Like Stephanie TheMassage-Therapist what to learn from my post - that there are many voices speaking about this research you mention - 8 hours ago · Like Boris Prilutsky Hi Stephanie. Just want you to know that I'm appreciating your posts very much because it allows us exchange knowledge as well to learn .In the world of science in order to claim and say “not so fast”one have to conduct research that will provide different opposing data.with all due respect like you said:” what to learn from my post - that there are many voices speaking about this research you mention .” This data was including reports of biopsy testing, this is not an opinion, and this was published in real medical authority magazine. For us it is a big deal we just have to support it by clinical outcome. Very soon I will offer a lot of lessons for free, but meantime my advice in any treatment,50% of procedure time to dedicate to petrissage /kneading Thanks again. Best wishes. Boris Massage Therapy Attenuates Inflammatory Signaling After Exercise-Induced Muscle Damage stm.sciencemag.org 7 hours ago · Like Stephanie TheMassage-Therapist https://www.facebook.... posted http://saveyourself.c... after having read http://stm.sciencemag... what else to learn - that there are many voices in the realm of science and research - there is much more to read - there is much more to learn - there is always much more Paul Ingraham 6 hours ago · Like Boris Prilutsky Hi Stephanie. You said :”An even bigger problem is that we already know from studies of actual clinical outcomes that massage has only modest effects on exercise recovery at best. In other words, there just isn’t much of a clinical benefit to explain, and maybe not.” I know about few study reports claiming you have said. In regards of clinical outcomes of post event sports massage, all depends when you start treatment, and if you sustain rules of 50% procedure time must be spent on petrissage. maybe my article will change your mind on the subject. http://medicalmassage... Best wishes. Boris Prilutsky about an hour ago · Like Stephanie TheMassage-Therapist the study is attempting to take it findings to speak to more than just sports massage - As a non-drug therapy, massage holds the potential to help not just bone-weary athletes but those with inflammation-related chronic conditions, such as ...See More <Massage is promising for muscle recovery: McMaster researchers find 10 minutes reduces inflammatio www.mcmaster.ca Hamilton, Ont. February 01, 2012—Researchers at McMaster University have discovered a brief 10-minute massage helps reduce inflammation in muscle. 52 minutes ago · Like Boris Prilutsky Stephanie, I have mentioned and proposed information of post event sports massage because you said:” massage has only modest effects on exercise recovery at best.” In regards of Dr.Ternoplsky’s work. It is very hard ,to overestimate this data and how it does influents our position in health care program. Soon will be available for free preview my medical orthopedic massage /physical therapy aide/chiropractor assistant program. Mainly it containing 20 + years old footage, where I am presenting and explaining in details on anti-inflammatory effect of massage. I just referring to different research data by different scientists. If you trusting my work it's not only scientifically established But It is clinically proven fact. I'm repeating myself, the importance of Dr.Ternoplsky’s work is that this is solid histological examination,and it published in publication, that most of the doctors reading , and then accepting it as a “ true “.now they will refer patiences, and this is important . As we speaking I'm studying from original study report, and will write some summary. I hoping that you will find it interesting. In any case what so far I can say:” it looks and sounds like report on post even sports massage, which is a bit different and in addition to what this paper describing there is much more extended data. This I can guarantee. Soon I will offer my interpretation of this study report. But don't get me wrong, this study report is something real, and important. Best wishes. Boris 42 minutes ago · Like Boris Prilutsky Stephanie you said:” As a non-drug therapy, massage holds the potential to help not just bone-weary athletes but those with inflammation-related chronic conditions, such as arthritis or muscular dystrophy, says Justin Crane, a doctoral student in the Department of Kinesiology at McMaster.” During 40 years of practicing medical and sports massage including supported scientific data to explain it ,I have no doubt that massage is non-drug therapy and massage holds the potential to help not just bone-weary athletes but those with inflammation-related chronic conditions, such as arthritis etc. in the regards of muscular dystrophy. Who knows but we should understand the massage boosting and creating mitochondria activities, but if it affect muscular dystrophy which is genetic mitochondrial disease????? Big question, maybe, potential is there. But not the other aspect of this fundings, they are perfect. Please keep in mind that at this study participated young and healthy people, who forced themselves to exercise to exhaustion. Post massage biopsy, reveals new mitochondria. This is big and exciting, and giving some idea to be beneficial in cases of mitochondrial diseases. I'm kind of busy to talking you, but will go back to read the original paper, and then will come back to you. Meantime thank you for intelligent discussion. Best wishes. Boris Prilutsky

 

Boris Prilutsky said:

Hi Gordon.

I'm glad you like my  article .in the regards of medical doctors . The matter of fact is that medical doctors is an a leading authorities in health care system. And until they and   PTs  will not recognize us, which mean will start referring patients we will be in position where our industry is now. I mean many of our colleagues leaving practice for good, because they cannot sustain themselves financially charging $39 for one hour massage etc. The many articles and reports about benefits of massage are ignored by medical doctors, until it will be published  at publication similar Or like  Science Translational Medicine. When doctors read this data    at Science Translational Medicine, MDs don't have to know details on how massage working in cases of muscular syndromes etc. they simple referring patients. Now I agree with you, we have to know what to do in order to help. Please keep in mind , that patients referred by MD for treatment  of skeletal muscular  disorder, on bases twice a week coming to us for five weeks, paying us in average $50 for 35-40 minutes of orthopedic massage procedure. Now one can say, this is a lot of money, and many will be not able to afford. It is not really correct. Let's keep in mind ,only copayments, for a doctor visits, physical therapy office visits is an average $30. Then if you will explain this   mathematics to  patient and sometime to Dr. price perceptions ($50 minus $30 =$20) will be changed, and especially when we fundamentally changing conditions to better. Also good to mention expenses for paying prescribed and not prescribed painkillers, sleep pills and other medications.

Best wishes.

Boris.

Gordon J. Wallis said:

Very interesting article Boris... The problem I see often enough is that doctors, all the different kinds, dont understand their patients problem in the first place....If they understood that the patients radiating arm pain was caused by trigger points in the infraspinatus muscle..They could refer their patient to a good massage therapist that they know who understands trigger points... But they dont...They seem to know very little about muscular pain....And if they have ruled out any pathology, they usually refer to a physical therapist...But the same problem...The physical therapists dont know that the aching pain down the arm is being caused by a trigger point in the infraspinatus.. And lots of massage therapists seem un- knowledgeable too..  I experience that weekly. Almost daily. Just yesterday... Working in a spa...I get too  see a crossroads of the medical communities work...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on February 23, 2012 at 4:47pm

Dear friends.

Below you'll find link where Lady, who is not massage therapist, but suffering  from fibromyalgia, posted question  at massage therapy Professional discussion site. She got many advises and proposals from our colleagues, that in the end she stated:” I want to say thanks again to all of you for your advise. I will look into everything - even if I am a bit more confused now WHICH will be best: trigger point, myofascial release, cranio sacrale, neuromuscular.....?

this is little example, how 1000s names are confusing general public and of course health practitioners. I posted twice at this discussion, otherwise wouldn't criticize.

Best wishes.

Boris

http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/questions-about-tr...

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Permalink Reply by Gordon J. Wallis on February 23, 2012 at 8:44pm

The problem of confusion comes from how massage is being taught in this country, and the lack of knowledge in our society....Trigger points cause a significant amount of undiagnosed pain in this country.. So from my perspective, its getting rid of trigger points.   Call it whatever you want..Those names and  styles dont mean very much to me...If someone can show me a good way to get ride of trigger points..Thats all I wanna know...I dont care if you call it myofascial release or orthobionomy..   Those are just different approaches to removing pain, usually trigger points, out of the body...  Its like martial arts...You can defend yourself with Karate, or Aikido...They are both very different.  But if you learn either one...When it comes to physically defending yourself...the results the same.  If I have a client that hurts somewhere, and I find a trigger point..I explain to them how that trigger point is causing their pain.I show  them books and charts about trigger points. ..And I explain to them how Im going to make them(trigger points) go away...I explain to them the different approaches I do to make that happen and why.. Then once they understand what we are doing, I begin....If people knew their pain was because of trigger points..They can research as to what approach or style may be best for them...But trigger points are just not common knowledge..Not at all. Despite all the information out there.  Now I know not all pain is trigger point pain..But a lot of it is.   Most doctors dont know if they are dealing with trigger point pain....The general public looks up and depends on them...The confusion is caused from not knowing the cause. Trigger Points.   Thats my opinion from what I see.   

Boris Prilutsky said:

Dear friends.

Below you'll find link where Lady, who is not massage therapist, but suffering  from fibromyalgia, posted question  at massage therapy Professional discussion site. She got many advises and proposals from our colleagues, that in the end she stated:” I want to say thanks again to all of you for your advise. I will look into everything - even if I am a bit more confused now WHICH will be best: trigger point, myofascial release, cranio sacrale, neuromuscular.....?

this is little example, how 1000s names are confusing general public and of course health practitioners. I posted twice at this discussion, otherwise wouldn't criticize.

Best wishes.

Boris

http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/questions-about-tr...

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on February 24, 2012 at 8:46am

Good morning Richard.

Thank you so much for correcting my typo. By all means it should be “patient”.

Thanks again. I see importance of your correction and appreciate it very much.

 glad you did appreciate my Part 1 article:” What type of massage therapy doctors should choose to refer their patience for treatments????

As we speaking I'm working on Part 2. My hope you will like it too. Very much agree with you on the rest of your post.

Have a great day.

Boris

 

 

RICHARDS® said:

I am confused you used the word "patience". I am considering it you meant was "patients" instead. (I apologize for noticing, I might be wrong also). Anyway, from my experience, most licensed physicians (especially pain management physicians) prescribed manual therapy techniques, medical massage therapy techniques using medical CPT codes to their referred patients seeking massage therapy care with no problem. I am one of three hundred thousand licensed massage practitioner nationwide battling with the image of massage, for it to be consider as an extension into the health care industry as well. The "1000" names for massage modalities came up ridiculously, that's why a lot of people still confused, and will still be confused if they would consider seeking massage therapy care, is it for luxury? or medical massage care? or NOT. Building a reputation is one basic step to make and build a "strong" foundation into the massage therapy industry with the help of healthcare professionals, science researchers, etc. We/I should work harder and build more EVIDENCES every day.

 

Thanks for sharing your article.

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Permalink Reply by Boris Prilutsky on February 24, 2012 at 9:24am

Gordon. Please read again  what this patient wrote in last post.: ” I want to say thanks again to all of you for your advise. I will look into everything - even if I am a bit more confused now WHICH will be best: trigger point, myofascial release, cranio sacrale, neuromuscular.....?

She used word “confused”, and after reading all these posts  we offered, I cannot blame her for expressing this deep disappointment and desperation as she did in post. More than this, I view her plead for help discussion, she did initiate as an ugly one on our end. Fibromyalgia is an debilitating disorder , she desperately looking  for hope , reaching out to us, and in the end leaving with more pain. Yes I mean physical pain. When fibromyalgia patient writing something like:” I am a bit more confused now WHICH will be best: trigger point, myofascial release, cranio sacrale, neuromuscular.....?

“ I can assure you writing  it did increase intensity of pain, and possible she cried when wrote it. Can you imagine if some of us who posted, would  suffering from constant pain, clinical depression etc. fighting by  looking for help, reaching out to professionals, and this professionals did harm  to one’s hope. How you would feel if you would be this patient????????? Before posting in such cases, we should understand condition, to have some “good size”experience in treating these conditions, and then to think twice before posting proposal. In this case we discussed not between us, but with disparate for help patient. Shame on us.

Please read again my and Dr.Ross article on the subject. Materials and techniques proposed in article is not  our personal opinion , but based on solid research and most importantly on clinical outcomes. We do talking there on trigger points too, but as a part of comprehensive treatment approach.

http://medicalmassage-edu.com/ExtraArticles/Fibromyalgia.pdf

 

Have a great day.

Boris

Gordon J. Wallis said:

The problem of confusion comes from how massage is being taught in this country, and the lack of knowledge in our society....Trigger points cause a significant amount of undiagnosed pain in this country.. So from my perspective, its getting rid of trigger points.   Call it whatever you want..Those names and  styles dont mean very much to me...If someone can show me a good way to get ride of trigger points..Thats all I wanna know...I dont care if you call it myofascial release or orthobionomy..   Those are just different approaches to removing pain, usually trigger points, out of the body...  Its like martial arts...You can defend yourself with Karate, or Aikido...They are both very different.  But if you learn either one...When it comes to physically defending yourself...the results the same.  If I have a client that hurts somewhere, and I find a trigger point..I explain to them how that trigger point is causing their pain.I show  them books and charts about trigger points. ..And I explain to them how Im going to make them(trigger points) go away...I explain to them the different approaches I do to make that happen and why.. Then once they understand what we are doing, I begin....If people knew their pain was because of trigger points..They can research as to what approach or style may be best for them...But trigger points are just not common knowledge..Not at all. Despite all the information out there.  Now I know not all pain is trigger point pain..But a lot of it is.   Most doctors dont know if they are dealing with trigger point pain....The general public looks up and depends on them...The confusion is caused from not knowing the cause. Trigger Points.   Thats my opinion from what I see.   

Boris Prilutsky said:

Dear friends.

Below you'll find link where Lady, who is not massage therapist, but suffering  from fibromyalgia, posted question  at massage therapy Professional discussion site. She got many advises and proposals from our colleagues, that in the end she stated:” I want to say thanks again to all of you for your advise. I will look into everything - even if I am a bit more confused now WHICH will be best: trigger point, myofascial release, cranio sacrale, neuromuscular.....?

this is little example, how 1000s names are confusing general public and of course health practitioners. I posted twice at this discussion, otherwise wouldn't criticize.

Best wishes.

Boris

http://www.massageprofessionals.com/forum/topics/questions-about-tr...

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