massage and bodywork professionals
a community of practitioners
Massage Should Not Be Licensed!
How does this subject make you feel?
Your schooling, training and everything is for not. That's what some on this site are touting as a reason to stop the professions progress thus far with the BOK. They continue to try and tie prostitution and massage together as the reason for licensing. It is not because we wish to enter the healthfield.
Read for yourself at http://www.massageprofessionals.com/group/bodyofknowledge/forum/top...
Instead of working with the leaders of this profession they want to create an entire new bureaucracy . It's your profession. How do you feel?
The following stories should give you a clearer picture of our massage landscape and how those resisting licensure are hurting the profession.
Your schooling, training and everything is for not. That's what some on this site are touting as a reason to stop the professions progress thus far with the BOK. They continue to try and tie prostitution and massage together as the reason for licensing. It is not because we wish to enter the healthfield.
Read for yourself at http://www.massageprofessionals.com/group/bodyofknowledge/forum/top...
Instead of working with the leaders of this profession they want to create an entire new bureaucracy . It's your profession. How do you feel?
The following stories should give you a clearer picture of our massage landscape and how those resisting licensure are hurting the profession.
Views: 771
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike Hinkle on
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And we are glad you are here and participating. Differing opinions make us who we are. I am glad you support licensure. It is the way the nation is heading. We will never get everyone to agree to anything, but we will get many. Thanks!
ValkyrieOracle said:Yes, I agree most likely it will never be legalized. I realize that is mostly an idealistic thought. It would simplify things a lot though. I am not a fan of prostitution but people are going to do what they are going to do...sometimes you just have to choose between a bad option and a worse one. Legalizing is the lesser of the evils.
Personally, I think requiring a license is, in theory, for the protection of the public and the therapist...it only works if we still have freedom in our practice though. People like me don't like to have too many boundaries on what we can and can't do. For example, I am not only a licensed therapist but a Reiki Master. Reiki was not regulated by the state here until the past few years. I don't agree with the new regulation. Reiki is NOT massage and should not be governed by a massage license. There are many legitimate Reiki practitioners that are now required to go get a massage license they will never use just to practice. In that instance I think the powers that be have taken the requirement of a license somewhere it didn't need to go. There are always going to be quacks out there, even the medical field has them, having a license doesn't always insure quality.
Bottom line is, you end up having to abide by the rules of the state you are in. I understand the theory behind requiring a license. I went and got mine and I love what I do. But I also can understand why it would be frustrating for some people to have to abide by the licensing regulations if they are just getting into bodywork.
Thank you for being open minded and I am glad I found this discussion. :)
Mike Hinkle said:Thank you for your input. Second time this week, women have said to legalize it. I really don't think states are going to do this.
Licensing massage, protects states and the public. It gives the states records of therapists and gives states the authority to do things like stop people who make fraudulent claims about energy work or whatever concerning the practice. The majority of the states now license and they are not going back. We will create a standard and it will grow the profession.
ValkyrieOracle said:In my opinion, which may ruffle some feathers, there is a simple solution to this whole thing. Legalize prostitution. I know there are those who view that chosen profession as less than moral but if someone chooses to live that life it's their deal...but I digress. If prostitution was legal then they would not have to use "massage" as a cover. They could advertise openly what services they offer without fear of lash back from law enforcement. That would definitely make the line between true, health based massage practices and massage parlors much more clear. And, in my opinion, it would cut down on the amount of inappropriate clients a real therapist gets. The clients looking for those services would know exactly where to go.
It is blatantly obvious that licensing massage has not weeded out the prostitutes or made the public any more educated on what massage therapy is really all about. As therapists we are having to educate the public one client at a time...and you don't need a license to do that.
I can see both sides of the licensing issue. One the one hand, you want to make sure that therapists are practicing good hygiene and cleanliness habits. Licensing, in theory, enforces those rules on therapists which creates a safer environment for clients. On the other hand, a license doesn't mean you are a good therapist. Some people are born with the gift and others are not, no matter how much school they go to. Licensing gives the false impression to the public that everyone is a good therapist just because they have a license.
Again, this is all just my opinion and I respect the opinions of people who may not agree with me. We are all just trying to do what is best for our profession because it is important to us and to our clients.
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Permalink Reply by Travis Alligood on
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I said this before and I will say it again, I went to Massage and Bodywork school to help people get there feet on the floor everyday so that they can face a new day with a healthy Mind ,Body, and Spirit and this day in time that can go in so many different directions as you can see. I spent many nights supporting Starbucks when I was in school, studying,and studying to find out that when I got out of school IT DOES NOT STOP. Thankfully we have had great therapist that have been in this compssionate field long enough to become HALL OF FAMERS and I thank each and every one of them for leaving a trail for therapist like myself who can follow these trails and plant new seeds along the way to help in our future. Good for states who require ETHICs to get licensure, or renewal. Its real good, It helps those hearts that stray away to get back on the trail. I have a lot to say about my chosen new profession, and to keep it short, I hope that someday after I follow the trail long enough to the HALL of Fame that I will have influenced a compassionate soul to follow my trail and help keep it clean, without having to worry about a future without a license to use their healing hands on some they want to help. PROSTITUTION sounds to me like someones heart is not in the right place. How do I feel ? I say keep licensure
as well as continuing ed. My clients love it when I learn how to make them feel better and if my heart is not there they will know it.
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I wish there were a million of you Travis! Thank you!
Travis Alligood said:I said this before and I will say it again, I went to Massage and Bodywork school to help people get there feet on the floor everyday so that they can face a new day with a healthy Mind ,Body, and Spirit and this day in time that can go in so many different directions as you can see. I spent many nights supporting Starbucks when I was in school, studying,and studying to find out that when I got out of school IT DOES NOT STOP. Thankfully we have had great therapist that have been in this compssionate field long enough to become HALL OF FAMERS and I thank each and every one of them for leaving a trail for therapist like myself who can follow these trails and plant new seeds along the way to help in our future. Good for states who require ETHICs to get licensure, or renewal. It real good, It helps those hearts that stray away to get back on the trail. I have a lot to say about my chosen new profession, and to keep it short, I hope that someday after I follow the trail long enough to the HALL of Fame that I will have influenced a compassionate soul to follow my trail and help keep it clean, without having to worry about a future without a license to use their healing hands on some they want to help. PROSTITUTION sounds to me like someones heart is not in the right place. How do I feel ? I say keep licensure
as well as continuing ed. My clients love it when I learn how to make them feel better and if my heart is not there they will know it.
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Permalink Reply by Darcy Neibaur on
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Thank you Travis for your sharing. I fully agree with all you said. I am so glad you are here. There are not enough compassionate souls on this earth.
Travis Alligood said:I said this before and I will say it again, I went to Massage and Bodywork school to help people get there feet on the floor everyday so that they can face a new day with a healthy Mind ,Body, and Spirit and this day in time that can go in so many different directions as you can see. I spent many nights supporting Starbucks when I was in school, studying,and studying to find out that when I got out of school IT DOES NOT STOP. Thankfully we have had great therapist that have been in this compssionate field long enough to become HALL OF FAMERS and I thank each and every one of them for leaving a trail for therapist like myself who can follow these trails and plant new seeds along the way to help in our future. Good for states who require ETHICs to get licensure, or renewal. Its real good, It helps those hearts that stray away to get back on the trail. I have a lot to say about my chosen new profession, and to keep it short, I hope that someday after I follow the trail long enough to the HALL of Fame that I will have influenced a compassionate soul to follow my trail and help keep it clean, without having to worry about a future without a license to use their healing hands on some they want to help. PROSTITUTION sounds to me like someones heart is not in the right place. How do I feel ? I say keep licensure
as well as continuing ed. My clients love it when I learn how to make them feel better and if my heart is not there they will know it.
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Thanks for the assist Keith!
Keith Eric Grant said:I'd do a brief answer (I hope) to Lisa's question, "Why the State?".
The 14th amendment of the U.S. constitution protects the right to engage in commerce and stipulates a right to do business except where there is a countervailing public interest imposed by due process. The Supreme Court ruling of Dent v. State of West Virginia, 129 U.S. 114 (1889) set out the principle that the state can limit the practice of occupations when it implements a needed public protection from harms of incompetence and malfeasance. There is thus, embodied in occupational licensing, a fine constitutional balance between freedom of commerce and intrusion of the police power of the state upon commerce for the benefit of the public. In allowing a state to determine public benefit, the standard of rational basis is normally used, except when the law involves a suspect classification that might involve discrimination (e.g. race, gender, national origin). In this case, the more stringent test of strict scrutiny is applied.
There can be other limits imposed upon regulation of a profession. The decision of California Liquor Dealers v. Midcal Aluminum, 445 U.S. 97 (1980) imposed restrictions on the use of private agencies in implementing regulation (or other trade restrictions) if state action immunity from the Sherman anti-trust law is to be maintained. The Midcal decision notes two criteria for immunity from anti-trust: first, the restraint must be "one clearly articulated and affirmatively expressed as state policy"; second, the policy must be "actively supervised" by the State itself. The court also noted that the state cannot simply pass a law delegating its authority and responsibility to regulate professions:The national policy in favor of competition cannot be thwarted by casting such a gauzy cloak of state involvement over what is essentially a private price-fixing arrangement. As Parker teaches, "a state does not give immunity to those who violate the Sherman Act by authorizing them to violate it, or by declaring that their action is lawful
The federal government, except in very rare cases such as aviation, does not regulate occupations. Nor can any private agency provide more than voluntary certification. The sole responsibility and power for occupational regulation rests with the individual states, which can not delegate that authority if the requlation is mandatory. A state board or regulatory agency is still part of the state itself.
The state boards and regulatory agencies can come together in association, discuss, and work toward some level of agreement and consensus on how to best fulfill the responsibility to regulate for the public benefit. That is what is occuring with FSMTB. FSMTB cannot dictate to the states, but it can, by association, help them to fulfill their individual responsibilities. It is still the states that are active in making the decisions, and thus state action immunity from anti-trust is maintained.
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Permalink Reply by Lisa on
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i'm curious...since we have a few overseas MTs...what's it like there? do you have licensing AND certification? one or the other? which is held as the standard for a quality education? is there the same struggle to distinguish ourselves from the "happy ending" ones or is that not as rampant?
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Permalink Reply by Stephen Jeffrey on
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Hi Lisa, we have very slowly organised nearly every form of massage association (no energy work) behind one volutary regulatory body. We are registered/certified/insured via our associations.
All complimentary medicine practitioners should eventually be licenced. Its being done on the basis of "potential to do harm to the public" massage presents unlikely to do harm "Edzard Earnst" so our Osteos,Physio,Chiros have been licenced first but under "protected title" only NOT ACTION.
As an example there was approx 8,000 osteo's before licencing now only approx 4,000 due to failing the exam. calling themselves something else or simply retiring due to cost a £750 licence killed off the part time rural practitioner. The Osteo's in the UK have an exstreamly well respected profession and osteopathic councill BUT once they were organised/licenced it did not stop the Government trying a take over that was thwarted. So be very very carefull how you organise yourselves or you could easily shoot yourselves in the foot! This is my opinion it may not be fact
Regards steve
Re happy endings there will always be people who are just stupid or actually get a kick outa calling female therapists who they know are genuine therapists just to wind them up.
Lisa said:i'm curious...since we have a few overseas MTs...what's it like there? do you have licensing AND certification? one or the other? which is held as the standard for a quality education? is there the same struggle to distinguish ourselves from the "happy ending" ones or is that not as rampant?
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Permalink Reply by Keith Eric Grant on
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Mike Hinkle said:
Ca is a mess. Even their existing law is under sunset rule.
Mike, you seem to know little about occupational regulation in CA and thus criticize without understanding the context. All occupational regulation falling under the auspices of the legislature (as opposed to created by the initiative process) fall under periodic sunset review, including the medical board. Here's a substantial list of such review documents. All such regulation also contain a department of justice clause requiring a background check. The treatment of the massage profession is no different in this respect than other professions.
The form of California regulation was also set by the Joint Legislative Committee on Boards, Commissions, and Consumer Protection. The massage therapy profession went through a sunrise hearing in January 2005, submitting a licensing law that had been worked to achieve substantial consensus. Liz Figueroa, then head of the Senate B&P committee (who was also automatically chair of the joint committee) and her staff rewrote a bill in nearly the form of the bill that passed based on the type of regulation the Joint Committee felt was warranted. Here are a number of Joint Committee Recommendations. Figueroa, before being termed out, had something like a decade of experience in occupational regulation and considerable legislative clout. In any case, Governor Schwarzenegger has, during this entire period, been adamantly opposed to creation of any new state regulatory boards and would have vetoed any such regulation even if passed. I'll also note that, in some cases, the legislature has appointed an independent monitor to ensure that boards implement legislative recommendations.
The type of regulatory system implemented by the bill is, in a number of ways not so different than the system implemented in BC. The state passed a title act, freeing massage therapy from unavoidable local regulation and authorized an independent organization (still under state review) to self-regulate the profession, much as the College of Massage Therapists regulates in BC under the BC system of scope of practice reviews and, apart from the centralized lists of reserved acts, title acts. It is not an irrational system. Use of a title act does not inherently affect questions of portability. The inherent difference is not in the management of qualifications for those regulated, but in the status of those unregulated.
Even if a massage therapy practice act had been passed, the use of staff and resources is subject to legislative budget approval. Board funds have also been raided in the past as I've heard is currently happening in other states. A practice act would have also required an explicit scope of practice, which was removed from the current law. The motivation was that the California Chiropractic Association was able to block any law that explicitly allowed passive stretching as part of the massage scope of practice. The massage profession in CA deemed such a restriction of accepted practice unacceptable. To the best of our knowledge, the CCA were able to kill SB 412 in the prior session over just this point.
CAMTC has it's own, fee-based budget and is free to responsibly use that as best indicated. It is not part of the state budget, not subject to state furlough requirements, and not subject to state restrictions of staff travel. It does have the right and responsibility to provide oversight and handle disciplinary actions to those it certifies. The bill that authorized CAMTC was sponsored by the AMTA-CA in cooperation with ABMP.
With the recent passage of AB 48, creating a new bureau for oversight of private, postsecondary education, we once again will have "state-approved" schools. The former school oversight law ALSO had a sunset clause AND the governor had previous vetoed its simple extension.
The anticipated number of applications for August-September (1st two months) was 2,250. The number of applications received during this period was 5,300. This puts CAMTC finances solidly into the black, while having created a processing backlog as additional management company staff are brought online.
From my perspective, you express disdain without justification and in ignorance of the many hours of discussion (including disagreements) and hard work that went into this.
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Stephen Jeffrey said:All complimentary medicine practitioners should eventually be licenced. Its being done on the basis of "potential to do harm to the public" massage presents unlikely to do harm "Edzard Earnst" so our Osteos,Physio,Chiros have been licenced first but under "protected title" only NOT ACTION.
Stephen,
Just to put us on the same terminology page, a title act is is technically referred to as certification rather than licensing. That definition, for example, is given in Ontario's HPRAC report on regulation deregulation on printed page 12 (pdf page 17).
The same definitions or registration, certification, and licensure in that report are also attributed to the Council on Licensure, Enforcement, and Regulation (CLEAR)
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Your right to a certain extent of things in there. But I am too. CA is a mess. And I understand these bills are all under sunset rule and this is a common way CA kicks the can down the road.
A mess, I guess depends on the viewers point, no jurisdiction? I am simply stating what I see. I am simply trying to remove your earlier views of my simple way of viewing CA.
I am reading your report you have attached hereto and that is the view I get. Opponents of the BOK have argued "Title Acts", yet CA has them. Opponents have hollered for competency, yet CA has not even set a "Scope of Practice", You haven't been approving schools since June 2007 and won't again until at least June 2010. Three years with no reviews?There is no state test. And you don't have to take any test if ...... But there are different rules depending on which test therapist choose to take. It is very confusing, Keith. You can't get therapist to even stop calling it state certified.
You asked me to get more informed and the more I do. The more personal you are taking my feedback. I am trying to figure out a few ways to simplify the situation. But I know I have no jurisdiction. I just believe in the BOK and I think they are creating a better way. I thought you were open to discussion. Heck the whole country is a mess, Keith!
Keith Eric Grant said:Mike Hinkle said:Ca is a mess. Even their existing law is under sunset rule.
Mike, you seem to know little about occupational regulation in CA and thus criticize without understanding the context. All occupational regulation falling under the auspices of the legislature (as opposed to created by the initiative process) fall under periodic sunset review, including the medical board. Here's a substantial list of such review documents. All such regulation also contain a department of justice clause requiring a background check. The treatment of the massage profession is no different in this respect than other professions.
The form of California regulation was also set by the Joint Legislative Committee on Boards, Commissions, and Consumer Protection. The massage therapy profession went through a sunrise hearing in January 2005, submitting a licensing law that had been worked to achieve substantial consensus. Liz Figueroa, then head of the Senate B&P committee (who was also automatically chair of the joint committee) and her staff rewrote a bill in nearly the form of the bill that passed based on the type of regulation the Joint Committee felt was warranted. Here are a number of Joint Committee Recommendations. Figueroa, before being termed out, had something like a decade of experience in occupational regulation and considerable legislative clout. In any case, Governor Schwarzenegger has, during this entire period, been adamantly opposed to creation of any new state regulatory boards and would have vetoed any such regulation even if passed. I'll also note that, in some cases, the legislature has appointed an independent monitor to ensure that boards implement legislative recommendations.
The type of regulatory system implemented by the bill is, in a number of ways not so different than the system implemented in BC. The state passed a title act, freeing massage therapy from unavoidable local regulation and authorized an independent organization (still under state review) to self-regulate the profession, much as the College of Massage Therapists regulates in BC under the BC system of scope of practice reviews and, apart from the centralized lists of reserved acts, title acts. It is not an irrational system. Use of a title act does not inherently affect questions of portability. The inherent difference is not in the management of qualifications for those regulated, but in the status of those unregulated.
Even if a massage therapy practice act had been passed, the use of staff and resources is subject to legislative budget approval. Board funds have also been raided in the past as I've heard is currently happening in other states. A practice act would have also required an explicit scope of practice, which was removed from the current law. The motivation was that the California Chiropractic Association was able to block any law that explicitly allowed passive stretching as part of the massage scope of practice. The massage profession in CA deemed such a restriction of accepted practice unacceptable. To the best of our knowledge, the CCA were able to kill SB 412 in the prior session over just this point.
CAMTC has it's own, fee-based budget and is free to responsibly use that as best indicated. It is not part of the state budget, not subject to state furlough requirements, and not subject to state restrictions of staff travel. It does have the right and responsibility to provide oversight and handle disciplinary actions to those it certifies. The bill that authorized CAMTC was sponsored by the AMTA-CA in cooperation with ABMP.
With the recent passage of AB 48, creating a new bureau for oversight of private, postsecondary education, we once again will have "state-approved" schools. The former school oversight law ALSO had a sunset clause AND the governor had previous vetoed its simple extension.
The anticipated number of applications for August-September (1st two months) was 2,250. The number of applications received during this period was 5,300. This puts CAMTC finances solidly into the black, while having created a processing backlog as additional management company staff are brought online.
From my perspective, you express disdain without justification and in ignorance of the many hours of discussion (including disagreements) and hard work that went into this.
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Permalink Reply by John Kelley on
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Well said Lura.
You articulated my thoughts as well as I could have. Being from Texas, it makes my blood boil when I hear/read we do not need licensing. We have has more knuckle heads graduate with 300 hrs. thinking they are Gods gift to our profession while they know very little. It hard to legitimize our profession to doctors when we cannot speak their language.
A more basic reason WA. has enjoyed the benefit of insurance reimbursement is that those MT's have excellent education.
Education and knowledge is the foundation our PROFESSION needs to be built upon and that is what will garner respect for us as professionals. Licensure is something I am happy pay for, as is National Certification, because I believe they reflect my effort to be considered a professional, dedicated therapist.
I'll finish by saying it's been hard being from TX. as MT's from around the country have viewed us as undereducated slackers. By the numbers, basically true. Thank God we now require the minimum 500 hrs.
Laura Allen said:Mike, I'll spare insulting anyone by name on this public forum in regard to the comments on that link, but the next time we see each other, I promise to give you an earful! I enjoyed getting my massage education and I don't object to being licensed. I'm also nationally certified. I don't resent spending the money for it, and I'd be getting the continuing education whether it was required or not. The clients in my clinic seem to be appreciative of the fact that we're all licensed and nationally certified. I don't think we'd be getting the number of doctor and dentist referrals that we enjoy if we weren't. We have the acceptance of the medical community because we are educated and licensed, and because we present ourselves as the professionals we are.
The Body of Knowledge project is a collaborative effort between our associations--the leaders of our profession. They chose the best and the brightest to work on it. It's been a long time in coming. And like most first efforts, it won't be perfect. But it is being created with the best of intentions from everyone involved. It's not going to make every therapist who reads it happy--and that's why they sent it out for comment! I don't know what people are whining about! They gave us a chance to make comments and I gave mine. I applaud the people who are working on it and the spirit in which it is being conducted.
I personally think prostitution should be legal. It's not like it's ever going away; and don't the police have more important things to deal with? Why do I care if someone who needs sex and doesn't have a willing soul to have it with goes out and pays for it? Is that harming me in any way? No, it is not. I personally would rather see the cops getting drunk drivers who might kill me off the road than worrying about someone paying for sex. Somebody get these people a board and let the states regulate THEM! Let them buy a privilege license and pay taxes like the rest of us. Then they could advertise themselves for what they really are, instead of masquerading as an MT. If somebody who wants a prostitute could look in the phone book and find one, they wouldn't be calling MTs.
They could have their own CE classes: "Safe Sex 101," Streetcorner Marketing," "Finding Your Inner Dominatrix," "Tantra for Everyone....." Gotcha on that one, didn't I!
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Hi John,
Glad to hear from you again. Yes, Texas is definitely in a better place now. And you have come far as a state. I love how your state puts most of their information regarding therapists, online. Glad to hear the associations are still cooperating with each other. Nice to see you in Orlando! You are starting to build a coalition and I have high hopes for your success!
John Kelley said:Well said Lura.
You articulated my thoughts as well as I could have. Being from Texas, it makes my blood boil when I hear/read we do not need licensing. We have has more knuckle heads graduate with 300 hrs. thinking they are Gods gift to our profession while they know very little. It hard to legitimize our profession to doctors when we cannot speak their language.
A more basic reason WA. has enjoyed the benefit of insurance reimbursement is that those MT's have excellent education.
Education and knowledge is the foundation our PROFESSION needs to be built upon and that is what will garner respect for us as professionals. Licensure is something I am happy pay for, as is National Certification, because I believe they reflect my effort to be considered a professional, dedicated therapist.
I'll finish by saying it's been hard being from TX. as MT's from around the country have viewed us as undereducated slackers. By the numbers, basically true. Thank God we now require the minimum 500 hrs.
Laura Allen said:Mike, I'll spare insulting anyone by name on this public forum in regard to the comments on that link, but the next time we see each other, I promise to give you an earful! I enjoyed getting my massage education and I don't object to being licensed. I'm also nationally certified. I don't resent spending the money for it, and I'd be getting the continuing education whether it was required or not. The clients in my clinic seem to be appreciative of the fact that we're all licensed and nationally certified. I don't think we'd be getting the number of doctor and dentist referrals that we enjoy if we weren't. We have the acceptance of the medical community because we are educated and licensed, and because we present ourselves as the professionals we are.
The Body of Knowledge project is a collaborative effort between our associations--the leaders of our profession. They chose the best and the brightest to work on it. It's been a long time in coming. And like most first efforts, it won't be perfect. But it is being created with the best of intentions from everyone involved. It's not going to make every therapist who reads it happy--and that's why they sent it out for comment! I don't know what people are whining about! They gave us a chance to make comments and I gave mine. I applaud the people who are working on it and the spirit in which it is being conducted.
I personally think prostitution should be legal. It's not like it's ever going away; and don't the police have more important things to deal with? Why do I care if someone who needs sex and doesn't have a willing soul to have it with goes out and pays for it? Is that harming me in any way? No, it is not. I personally would rather see the cops getting drunk drivers who might kill me off the road than worrying about someone paying for sex. Somebody get these people a board and let the states regulate THEM! Let them buy a privilege license and pay taxes like the rest of us. Then they could advertise themselves for what they really are, instead of masquerading as an MT. If somebody who wants a prostitute could look in the phone book and find one, they wouldn't be calling MTs.
They could have their own CE classes: "Safe Sex 101," Streetcorner Marketing," "Finding Your Inner Dominatrix," "Tantra for Everyone....." Gotcha on that one, didn't I!
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